Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Frost on August 27, 2002, 10:35:04 PM
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I decided to take a look at some comparative aircraft using the utility on this page:
http://www.jannousiainen.net/online_sims/jg_4/index.htm
I used what I think are the four non-perked aircraft that are closest in airspeed and climb rate to the -4.
Bf109-G10
La-7
P51-D
FW190-D-9
Speed: At sea-level only the La-7 beats the -4. From 1k to 8k all of these planes are faster than the -4. From 8k to 14k the P51, D-9 and G-10 are faster than the -4. From about 15.5k and up, only the G-10 is faster than the -4.
Climb: From sea-level to 8k the G-10, D-9 and La-7 climb faster than the -4. From 8k to 15.5k the G-10 and the D-9 climb faster than the -4. Above 15.5k only the G-10 climbs better than the -4.
Turn rate: My opinion here will probably be disputed. Below 10k I think the -4 outturns all the planes except the La-7. Above 10k it will probably outturn all of them using flaps.
Acceleration: Again my opinion here. No tests to back it up. Up to 10k I think that the G-10, D-9 and the La-7 will out-accelerate the -4. Above 10k the G-10 and the D-9 will probably out-accelerate the -4.
Conclusion: In my opinion ammo load versus weapon calibers even out the firepower on these planes so I did not use this as a major factor. Below 15k three planes are faster and two outclimb it. Above 15k only the G-10 is faster and outclimbs it. The -4 holds the advantage in turn rate but not in roll rate. Three planes probably out-accelerate it below 10k and two above 10k.
Below 15k (which is where most of the fighting takes place) the -4 does not hold a decided advantage over any of these non-perked planes. Above 15k it starts to shine but is still outclassed by the G-10.
If the -4 is perked because of performance then, in my opinion, there is a strong argument to unperk it. When compared to the other non-perked planes I don't believe it would be unbalancing to un-perk it or at the very least, substantially lower the cost.
There are many others that know much more about the perfomance of these planes than I do, so please feel free to point out any glaring mistakes.
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Based on the aircraft that are not perked, I think you are correct.
You should also test it against the Typhoon.
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I ruled out the Typhoon because of it's slow climb rate, slow role rate and mediocre acceleration. I thought the others were a closer comparison.
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It may be perked simply because of rarity, and is is a high preformance plane, althought NOT the best by any means.
I am not shure how many units used this bird in combat, can sombody clue me in please.
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The experimental XF4U-4 was developed in Mid 1944 and the F4U-4 came to the front lines in early 1945. I dont have exact figures here with me, but the production of these beautiful birds was probably about 200 per month between all the manufacturers. I'm sure I'll be corrected on the production numbers if I'm terribly incorrect =) And I thank you. :)
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Oh yeah....I Agree BTW. UNPERK or Reduce the Perks on F4u-4. Perk planes when they become a general neausance, not just because they are great planes.
If it's to regulate the number in the arenas, then by all means you HAVE to perk La7's, Nikki's, Spit V and IX, 109's, and Typhies. Thats all I ever see out there.
The F4U-4 is a great plane, dont get me wrong. But the 6 .50 cals are definitely no cannons.
When AH brings the F4U-4C....then perk it. =)
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The price is fine.
Change it's tags to F4U and the need to run from the gangbang squads goes away.
The P51D seems to be the top-of-the-line free plane, and anything better is perked. The F4U4 is essentially a carrier based p51d, and is a slightly better plane overall. With gangbang tags, it stands little chance in the MA environment. The F4U-1 is a much more effective aircraft currently. This is also why the f4u-1C is the best perk plane by far, it lacks the gangbang tags.
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one might suggest that anyone earns enough perks enough to fly about in those fancy A/C should be able to defend one's self, especially in a superior bird...unless you're buying w/ stolen or counterfeit perks...j'accuse!
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Not gonna touch this one.......
Anyone else?
PUNT
:p
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whgates3...the point of this thread is that the F4U-4 is not a "superior" bird. There are a number of non-perked rides that are superior to the -4 under 15k where most of the fights are. Above 15k it does better for itself but there are still a couple of the non-perked rides that are better than the -4 from 0k to 30k. Unless it is perked for rarity then this bird should either be unperked or the perk cost substantially lowered.
If this plane were unperked in the MA you would see a big increase in usage for a while because people would want to fly a previously perked plane for free. But since it would be the 4th fastest non-perked plane below 15k and it isn't even close a turn-and-burn plane, people would gravitate back to La-7s, spits and N1kIs.
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There has always been some concern that the Hog-4 would be overused if it became unperked. I disagree, and the folks would in fact try it for a while, but the only people who would benefit from it are the ones that enjoy flying Corsairs in the first place.
Regarding the Icon marking, I disagree with the statement made regarding "should be able to remain alive" while in thi Hog-4. Once people see a perked ride in the area, theres a real desire to try to corral it at the earliest opportunity. Sure, the Corsair can get you home, but who doesn't try to kill a perked ride rather than dancing with some low value? I don't think it should be perked at 50, but it definitely needs to have the icon marker changed. It would make the game more interesting, and guys will have to get a good visual on the con to determine its version.
And yes, I believe the F4U-4B, and 4C both saw WW2 Combat..I may be wrong...I hope I'm not :)
Gainsie
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AMEN! Red Tail 444 and Frost!
Most who would fly the HOG-4 if lowered in perks or if the perk icon was removed would be those who fly Corsairs anyways. Yes, there would be a quick spike in usage, but most will realize that it still takes skill to handle the bird well and will quickly go back to their Spits, La7's and favorite HO planes. Since its release, I have only seen 4 F4U-4's out there and have personally only flown 3 or 4.
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UNPERK ME!!:mad:
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=)
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:D
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I think you make very good points for a case to have the F4U-4 unperked. I doubt it'll do anything though. It appears to me that the F4U-4 may really only be perked so that people will utilize the -1D and -1 because most would gravitate to the -4 if it was free. To interject more of my personal opinions, I actually like the perk system. However, rather than see the -4 unperked, I'd like to see some other aircraft added to the perk list such as the D9, G10, 51D, LA7 and maybe the Yak (because I hate those things!) I think we need a good amount of low-cost perk rides along the price of the F4U-1C. But basically, that whole economic strata is non-existant in the game and the perks hover around 50 and more. That can seem pricey to someone not used to risking his perk points. A nice warm up on a 5 perk point G10 would get people used to the whole earn/spend and supply/demand thing in the game. And get rid of the perk icons...you'll find out soon enough when engaging a perk aircraft and then you can call on the radio for help. That blazing neon sign letting the whole arena know you have something to lose doesn't seem to work well in my opinion. Oh well. Just me rambling a little here.
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...you'll find out soon enough when engaging a perk aircraft and then you can call on the radio for help. [/B]
:D
...and call loudly. (points to La-7 addicts)
In all seriousness, good point on adding perks to certain rides. Although few need to come with the heavy 50+ perk cost, I see no problem with 5, 8, 10, 15, etc., perks for various rides..heck I usually blow 50-200 a night, when I have that many to blow, that is. I gotta costly habit :)
I have no real knowledge or concern as to which planes should /should not be perked, I'll let the AH Gods single out the unworthy.
Gainsie
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Compare it to the Ta152 aswell, then we have two planes to unperk :)
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Let's just try to stick to this plane in this thread ;)
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Why's that Frost? I mean certainly if you're lobbying to unperk a 1945 "Super Aircraft" the Ta152 would be at the top of the list, heck for even lower perk costs or unperking it all. Except for useage in the MA now for the simple few fans of the plane who fly it from time to time, 20 perks doesn't hurt that much now. So even if you lose this neutered plane and get killed in it it won't hurt you. But the F4U-4 although it's climb rate is nothing compared to unperked aircraft,look at an aircraft like the Ta152 it climbs badly rolls worse, doesn't accel as it's supposed to so some have said, and it doesn't achieve the historical speed it was known for and it's "Amazing performance at altitude" ,yet for some reason it's perked because it would otherwise "unbalance the arena". The F4U-4 certainly has a performance advantage over the other unperked planes mainly at high altitude ,especially in acceleration and since there isn't any unperked aicraft to compensate or compete with it I'd think for the time being it should be perked although its cost reduced.
Look, I'd be all for perking those on your list including the G-10 but then it would leave the LW ,for example, without a contemporary to the P51-B which would be the G-14 they'd have a 2 generation Gap. The same would go if they opted to perk a plane like the N1K2 which was much more rare than the Ki-84, we cannot for the time being perk the N1K2 because it would leave the Japanese planeset without an later war aircraft or a formidable aircraft for MA use,since everything else they have are mid war examples.
The F4U-4 will probaly still remained perked but at much lower cost. Probably at Ta152 levels,unless of course when 'fixed' the usage increases considerably of the Ta152 in the arena in which case I'd think the perk cost would rise, but most likely it won't.
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Didn't HTC just lower the perk cost considerably for the TA152?? What's to complain about in regards to its price?
The dora is faster than the F4U-4 up till 15K. The Pony's will stay right with it as well up till about 17K
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Why is what Glasses?
If your asking why we should stick to talking about the -4 in this thread that started out talking about the -4 then the answer should be self-explanatory. I would rather not see the thread hijacked (although i would agree that the TA-152 is a sorry perk plane). If you wish to talk about the TA-152 then by all means start a thread.
If you take a look at the data you will see that the unperked planes listed compete very well with the -4. The G-10 climbs better (much better), is faster and has better acceleration than the -4 at every alt. The other unperked planes listed are matched or better than the -4 below 15k where 95% of the fights take place.
I don't want any other planes to be perked. But I definately believe that the data supports the fact that the -4 is perked much to high.
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Issuing light perks(4~5 points?) on the planes P-51D, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7, and the N1K2-J will each greatly increase the usage of P-51B, Fw190A-5 and A-8, La-5FN, Bf109G-2 and G-6, and the Ki-61 IMO. Also, the perks for the Spit14 and F4U-4 should be downed a bit.. (20~30s?).
Ofcourse, filling out some of the gaps in the planeset(the gap between the Bf109G-6 and the Bf109G-10, and the SpitfireMkIX and the Spitfire MkXIV seems to be the largest) will also help.
So.. give the RAF a 1944 Spit9, give the LW a 1944 Bf109G-6(or a G-14 :D ), maybe a Ki-44 to the IJAAF... and the arena would be full of mid war planes. Nicely matched, balanced, free planes existing for all countries.. and some of the monstrous performers a bit rare in comparison, the even better performers like the Spit14 and F4U-4 would be more rare, and the Tempy/262 planes would be just as now very rare to find.
This would help the arena to boast some nice diversity.
Either that, or everyone deprived of their "dweeb machines" end up in Spit9s and N1K2s, and balance is even worse off! :D
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Frost, that is because the agenda behind perking planes don't just apply to one plane. It should be a universal thing. When one part of "perk planes" is to be changed, all the other perk planes should all be changed in relation in some sort of way.
If the F4U-4 should be unperked, so should the Ta-152. Much the same, the other way around, since the Ta-152 perk cost has gotten lower, so should the F4U-4 costs.
ps)
Anybody think Typhoons should be perked? Somehow, I have this churring feeling deep down in my gut that when the La-7 gets perked, all the people who hoarded to the La-7 might just move to the Typhoon, since all the planes that boast simular deck speed would be perked. Maybe an even lower perk of 1~2 points if La-7, G-10, D-9, P-51 sort of planes are perked at 5?
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I disagree with you there Kweassa. Evaluation of perk planes should be of each individual plane and it's effect on the MA. Just because they lowered the price on the TA-152 doesn't mean they should lower the cost on the 262.
People are always saying to provide data to back up requests. That is what I tried to do with this request specifically about the -4. At the minimum I think I've shown a very strong argument for lowering the cost on the -4.
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Essentially Frost what I meant was said by Kweassa , and I do agree the F4U-4 should have it's perk value reduced! No question about that. Not so far as to unperk it completely, I put the example of the ta152 (as you said a sorry perk plane) to prove my point that a lesser aircraft such as this one which lacks performance that it should have is a perked plane, so it would rule out the unperking completely the F4U-4, if measures would not be taken with other perked aircraft. I wasn't lobbying for the Ta152 nor complaining about the perk cost, I think it's fine, I was just making comparisons to prove my point.
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I misunderstood you earlier Glasses. I understand now and agree with what you are saying. I was just afraid of this turning into another perk system debate and losing the focus on the -4 performance comparison.
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Definitely lower the perk cost on the -4, but whats the point in giving 1-2 perks for the planes most of the people gravitate to? if they want to fly an La-7 or g-10, let'em pay thriugh the nose like the rest of us :)
ther only hog I want to see perkedm50+ will be the -4B or -4C...too bad we won't see them in AH. THEy would imbalance the arena for sure. (off topic, but did either of these see combat in WW2? I've heard conflicting reports).
In any event, Frost you make excellent points. How far HTC will go in agreeing with your argument is another story, however. I'll keep the fingers crossed.
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My appologises for sami-hijacking this thread, was trying to point out that the F4u-4 isn't the only plane that needs unperking. Tha TA152, is worse at everything at all alts except for possibly above 30-35k or so, why is why I brouhgt that up.
So once again, my appologise.
Let's just face it folks, the perk idea is good in theory, but put to piss poor use, planes are perked because they came in very late (with exception for the C hog which was perked for overuse) or were produced in very few numbers. Not because they are damn freaking uber good, because the F4u-4 ain't, and the Ta152 in AH sure as hell don't come close to anything that resembles a good plane.
I could very well agree on unperking the F4u-4, problem is the F4u-1D won't be flown at all if it is so best thing would be same price as for the 1C IMO, chose between speed/climb or cannons. Most people would go with cannons except for those who are good pilots and favour a better plane with weaker guns.
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The 1C was built only in small numbers.
Unfortunatly, the n1k2 came into the war both very late, and was built only in small numbers.
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Here is a list of the F4U's climbing ft per minute:
F4U-1 series all about 3,000-3,250
F4U-4:4,170
P38L:2,800
ok the P38 out climbs the f4u's in Aces High doesnt it? i certainly hope not if anything should be perked is the 109 G10 which is one of the fastest plane climbing and leveled out at high altitude.
Also the Damage that the Corsair's can take is up there along with the P47 from what I've heard but anyhow in Aces High the are shot off so easily with a few shots boom there goes the wing. I think that the F4u4 and p47 should take more damage then what they do now I have heard some pretty incredible stories of the damage these planes can take and as far as reducing the perks on the F4u4 i Agree. The Corsair is the plane i fly the most out of anything all day everyday. I hope soon the F4U4 perks will be reduced
BTW... about the guns 50 cals on the F4U but.. to me they seem a bit on the weak side compared to um.. P51's 50's
BTOgb
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Also the Damage that the Corsair's can take is up there along with the P47 from what I've heard but anyhow in Aces High the are shot off so easily with a few shots boom there goes the wing.
Exactly. The F4U-1 loses one of its wings if a Spit or N1K even looks its way.
The P47 seems a very durable aircraft in AH, though I've never flown it. I do recall one encounter vs a P47 in my P51B that I unloaded about 70% of my ammo into a P47 and got hit-sprites galore and he never went down. Now that I think of it, this was a couple weeks ago and weren't we dealing with lost packets or something then? Maybe that was it.
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climb
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speed
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characteristics
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Without the Perk tag in the MA, the F4U4 would be exceptionally effective. Yes, the La7 is faster down low, but you can say that about almost any plane in the set. The G10 may climb faster but lets be honest, in pretty much all other respects the -4 will trounce the LW fighter. Flying the Uterus map at the weekend, I saw many fights start around 15-20k. At this alt or above the -4 should be able to beat almost anything. And it would, but for the gangbang icon.
Actually I'd like to see almost all perk planes lose the gangbang tag - label TEMP as TYPH, 152 as 190, Spit14 as Spit etc.
About the only planes who should keep the tag are the jets. For the rest, a perk cost which seems too high at present would actually be OK in this kind of environment. Change the tag and the price is right...
Vladd
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Ammo, where did you get that last page from? A book? Would be nice to know, I want it :)
One more question, something I don't understand, then again, I've never been very smart.
Why post a WB vs R/L chart here?
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Ammo, if I've understood the climbing chart correct, it states that the maximum climb rate of the F4u-4 was 4800 feet/min, which is, afaik very wrong.
The Initial climb rate for the F4u-4, acording to my sources and foremost a very exelent book from the "Warbird tech Series", "Volume 4: Vought F4u Corsair" the maximum climb rate of the F4u-4 was 3870 feet/min, it's also suported by this (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/vought/f4u-4.htm) internet site amongst others.
The only production F4u to reach climb rate over 4000 feet/min was the post war F2G-2 which reached 4,400 feet/min however it was slower then the F4u4. max speed of F2G-2 was 431 mph at 16,400 feet.
The F2G-2 was made due to the navy wanted a fast climbing fighter that could get to altitude fast and engage kamikaze attack planes.
Not sure, but as far as I understand, and the sources I have, it seems to be a myth that the U4 could climb with 4,800 feet per minute.
Not an attack on you Ammo.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Ammo, where did you get that last page from? A book? Would be nice to know, I want it :)
One more question, something I don't understand, then again, I've never been very smart.
Why post a WB vs R/L chart here?
becuase the RL numbers are referenced. just ignore the WB's stats.
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wil, NP. I picked up thie pdf file another website (looking for the link now. It had declassified charts for the f4F, F6F, P-51, F4U...
in the meanwhile, here is the charts for the F4U-4, to include the original cimb and sopeed charts (which show a 4750 fpm initial climbrate). NOW THAT would be a perk F4U-4:)
F4U-4 (http://home.satx.rr.com/pointblank/films/f4u-4.pdf)
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found the link. Bunch of goodies here (http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id3.htm)
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OHOH HOT DAMN! :D
Now that's an F4u I want! :D
Ok, so what's the real difference, you know that? Obviously there were F4U-4's with less performance (3,900 feet/min climb) and then these ones. Different engine?
Personally I think the F4u-4 in AH should be remodelled, a 1k per min/extra climb would make it real worth the perks, and more.
Thanks ALOT for the links ammo :)
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Ok, sorry but why hasn't anyone pointed this out before? It has to have been known.
If it's porked, then why hasn't anyone said so? You allied dweebs gotto get louder about such things. If it's not porked, then request the better one :)
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well, I am not the big F4U fan, but its a nice AC and I believe all AH AC should be modeled to most accurate, representative info available. So, I guess I could email that pdf file to pyro. I wonder if F4UDOA hasn't already done so?
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BTW, the fella has those charts on a geocities web space. When the page takes a bunch of hits, it gives you a mesage that its exceeded its allowable traffic for a given period of time. Kind of aggravating:)
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I did some number crunching. The PDF file (bureau of aeronautics of the Navy) have the f4u-4 speed stats in knots.
I converted thee numbers for the test with the AC combat laden with 1 150 gallon drop tank. That makes it even more impressive. Yep..these numbers are for a combat ready, external fuel carrying, f4u-4.
at 20,500 ft-- 452 MPH
at sea level-- 374 MPH
at 15,000 ft-- 435 MPH
max climbrate @ sea level- 4770 fpm
time to climb to 20K-- 4.9 minutes
Sounds like our F4U-4 may not be right. Unless, we have a diff AC than the one described in those Dep of Navy charts.
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Ammo,
It's a bad news, good news, bad news kind of a thing.
1. Bad news. The chart you have is for 130 octane fuel.
2. Good news. I have another set of charts which is still much better than what we have with 100 octance fuel.
Here is page one. (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/f4u4i.jpg)
Here is page two.
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/f4u4t.jpg)
3. Bad news. I have sent this data to Pyro/HT and they are less than motivated to do anything about it. This is from the QA section of the message boards. QA#2
We use the best resources available to us at the time. Some planes are very rich in available data while others are very sparse. If new data becomes available to us after the fact, then it?s a matter of finding time to research it and make a change to the model if needed. The F4U-4 would fall into that latter category. On planes with multiple variants, discrepancies in the reports must be accounted for in our models. We can?t just look at the performance data, we also have to look at the actual physical changes made and verify that the performance changes are relative to the physical changes.
4. Good news. I still have another chart for the F4U-4 with even better numbers with 100 octane fuel. I have yet to scan or post it anywhere. Will do it tommorrow in a new post.
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Ammo/Wilbus,
Haven't you guys seen my web page. I have all of the allied charts posted inside of a huge PDF from Vought. Also Ammo I got that P-51 vs F4U report from "Dizz" Dean Author of AHT about three years ago along with some other stuff. He passed away recently but he lived very close to me.
In and case look at this chart. Check out the 400MPH top speed of the F2G at sea level and the 5,000Ft per minute climb rate
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/alliedchrts2.jpg)
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not directly related to the topic, but i just got the Oct '02 copy of Aeroplane Monthly & it has 3 pix of korean war era F4U-4s w/ 2 bomb racks on each wing, on the inboard edge of the outter wing section. 0ne pic of the 3 shows rocket rails as well, outboard of the bomb racks, with the bird carrying one ~250 lbs & one ~500lbs bomb on each wing & 2 drop tanks on the normal inner wing section points...anyone know if the WWII version of the F4U-4 could carry more than 2 bombs?
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I like that chart F4UDOA, only the USN would think to compare the F2G with a P51B. Classic stuff.
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CC Ammo, noticed it was in knots aswell, fast bird that's for sure :)
F4uDOA, thanks for the charts, will save em all that's for sure :)
Something bothers me though...
The F4U-4 would fall into that latter category.
If I understand this correct, they mean that the F4U is NOT rich on Data?
To me it seems like the F4U has got enough data to make anyone happy, specially if compared to some other birds.
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A little off topic but IMO I don't think the La7 should be perked.
The reason is that this plane gives new players a fighting chance. New players, like a friend of mine, are mostly just targets. Given a chance to succeed is provided by the La7 ( or planes like it) and they enjoy the game much more. This means they hang around longer.
Another option would be to seed new players with perk points for a limited time period and then go ahead and perk La7 and the other dominate late war MA rides.
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F4UDOA-
Guilty of never visiting your webpage (at least if I did i didnt know it was yours). Please provide link.
It stands out though that the evidence is there that the AH F4U-4 is undermodeled by what we have. What source documents did they use? 1000 FPM climbrate is significant. I haven't tested top speeds yet, but I am guessing we have a delta there too.
thx
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Originally posted by Mino
The reason is that this plane gives new players a fighting chance. New players, like a friend of mine, are mostly just targets. Given a chance to succeed is provided by the La7 ( or planes like it) and they enjoy the game much more. This means they hang around longer.
This is true, and it's good, however the problem is that it's exploited by pilots who have advanced beyond needing such planes.
Still, turners are usually better suited for newbies. It's usually not the new pilots who worry too much about surviving, or running down goons while being pursued by a half a dozen enemies.
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Wilbus,
I think they meant that the F4U-4 fit into the latter category of having information but not the time to do anything about about it. Indeed the F4Uhas more source documentation that pretty much any American fighter, even the P-51. I have never seen this kind of data on a P-51.
Ammo,
Are you a P-47 guy?? Did you notice how fast the P-47 is at sea level on those charts?? 350MPH, hows that. Anyway these were all Vought A/C test.
Here is my URL
F4UDOA's Web page (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/)
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Ammo, do what I do, copy the link address of one F4U's charts then just remove the picture address in the address field, will bring you to the first page.
Even 500 feet per minute is a significant climb error.
Acording to AH charts the F4u-4 in AH will top out at about 27k with a speed of approximatly 440-445mph. Will have to check it digital to get exact numbers.
Another porked perk? ;)
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F4u, personally I think allt his about not having time to fix some planes is total BS.
Fix planes and make them usefull and modelled good instead of just throwing out a bunch of new planes that may or may not be modelled right. Instead of making a new plane take that time to fix one or two planes that are badly modelled or make them usefull (IE. Possible give F4u the 130 octane fuel and Spit 14 the 150 etc etc). This would make them both usefull instead of just flown by enthusiast or those of us who likes the challange.
Not pissed off at you, just the way AH has been going the past year or so...
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Originally posted by whgates3
anyone know if the WWII version of the F4U-4 could carry more than 2 bombs?
I recal reading that it could carry up to 4 bombs, but not 4k worth of bombs, and it had to takeoff from ground bases.
This recent info sucks about the F4U-4 in AH...its performanse charts don't seem to reflect it's AH profile, and the hogs are the ONLY rides where the drag coeffecient is implemented on the wing mounting points, so whats the deal here? The corsairs are pretty much the only plane I fly, and to think I'm flying a porked bird is a real "drag"
(bad day in the office, sorry for the negative vibes!)
Gainsie
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Ammo,
Are you a P-47 guy?? Did you notice how fast the P-47 is at sea level on those charts?? 350MPH, hows that. Anyway these were all Vought A/C test.
Here is my URL
F4UDOA's Web page (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/)
Thx for the URL.
Oh yes, I am a jughead. FYI, the D11 will do 345 OTD. The D30 and D25 reach 340 OTD. Not *too* far off your numbers. They are also a little slow to published 25K numbers too.
My biggest gripe is the omittance of the Hamilton or Curtis prop on the D11. Still, The D11 flies Ok. Also, the extremely heavy loadout option for the D30 is wrong (at least I can't find a reference).