Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on August 28, 2002, 01:47:27 PM
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Well is it?
Think of all the problems is has caused?
The crusades?
many wars?
The Spanish inquisition?
Witch hunts?
Other cultures being wrecked by it, (missionaries coming and converting)
Much of the terrorism in the world is in part from one religion seeing the rest of the world as evil and wanting to kill them?
What good has come from it?
I do not want to start a flame war I just want your thoughts.
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A relationship with God is a good thing....Religion is manmade.
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Rude,
What does your relationship with God do for you?
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Despite the claims of secular humanists, monotheistic religion was the basis of human scientific curiosity. Before monothesism, people believed in multiple gods, or in animal spirits, which controlled the world. In such an environment man did not attempt to make sense of the world around him, as he believed that all things were subject to the whims of whatever the gods or spirits decided to do. With monotheism, man became curious to find out how the one god had designed the universe. This lead eventually to scientific thought.
Wars and slaughter come out of human nature, they happen whether religion is involved or not.
Many enlightened secular types, like communists, believe that religion has out-lived its usefulness, and that it is holding mankind back. To me, saying that without religion mankind would find peace is like saying that by eliminating red and blue clothes, the Crips and the Bloods would stop fighting.
ra
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I have no comment.
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Ra, it may be human nature to start wars, but Religion has added a hell of allot of fuel.
If it is human nature and religion has no bearing on it good or bad, what good is religion now.
What do you take from your beliefs?
Monotheism may have started science but many religious people throw away science now and hold on to old and foolish beliefs.
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Originally posted by ra
Despite the claims of secular humanists, monotheistic religion was the basis of human scientific curiosity. Before monothesism, people believed in multiple gods, or in animal spirits, which controlled the world. In such an environment man did not attempt to make sense of the world around him, as he believed that all things were subject to the whims of whatever the gods or spirits decided to do. With monotheism, man became curious to find out how the one god had designed the universe. This lead eventually to scientific thought.
Wars and slaughter come out of human nature, they happen whether religion is involved or not.
Many enlightened secular types, like communists, believe that religion has out-lived its usefulness, and that it is holding mankind back. To me, saying that without religion mankind would find peace is like saying that by eliminating red and blue clothes, the Crips and the Bloods would stop fighting.
ra
What a load of crap! Sorry, I mean I disagree sir.
Science as it is currently defined was invented by the Ionian Greeks about 600 B.C.
While the Egyptians and Babylonians undoubtedly developed mathematics and astronomy, the Ionians began the scientific method that has been used to this day.
Religion, especially Christians tried to squash this knowledge and were almost completely successful. Read about the burning of the library of Alexandria someday. Religion has not assisted scientific knowledge except as a way for poorer folks in the Dark Ages to get a free education by joining the clergy.
You are almost completely wrong in this ra.
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I will agree with Ra on one point, religion satisfies the apprehensions of the ignorant by providing explainations to the unknown. That's hardly limited to polytheism though.
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Tah Gut
Good reply!
Hey email me at Gtora2@hotmail.com so we can talk about good times for me to get ahold of John.
Thanks again!
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Gto-
So you admit you'd really made up your mind when you posted?
Tired topic, same participants, same tired viewpoints, same conclusions. I'll save you time.
Believe if you will, don't if you don't. You don't have to insult the other viewpoint in the process
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This thread is officially retarded.
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Originally posted by funkedup
This thread is officially retarded.
See!
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Who did I insult?
I have a problem with Christianity and organized religion, I admit it. I am not trying to insult anyone or just find out what you all think?
Funkedup
You don't like it don't post.
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The royal "you".
Of course, blaming every bad thing that ever happened in civilization on religion could be construed as insulting by someone that is religious- I find it so- but I am so tired of arguing the point here I think I'll just let that slide. It's the same people that claim to be enlightened talking down to the same people that believe and will believe no matter what. Nothing is accomplished.
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"The royal "you". " Maybe I am being thick but I don't understand.
I am not saying every bad thing is caused by religion. Nor am I trying to accomplish anything, I was just looking for peoples thoughts.
I am not trying to say I am better then you cause I do not believe the same thing nor am I saying your are wrong for what you decided to believe. Again I just want to know what people think.
It's a forum for discussion, that's all I am trying to do.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Funkedup
You don't like it don't post. [/B]
Now you're trying to regulate my freedom of speech.
I knew it, all atheists are godless commies.
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LoL I hope your not Serious
I am not trying to do anything to you. Feel free to post as much as you want to this thread or anything but if all your going to do is post saying why you do not like something, why bother?
I am not an atheist or a commie, I really hope your trying to be funny.
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Don't you all know by now that your "gods" came in a space ship and took a lot of us thru a stargate and... hey, don't look at me that way, I saw it on TV! :D
Daniel, aka Cyrano
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I have no problem with what anyone believes... some of my best friends are born again :)
I was just responding to a falsehood. I always will. Best way to catch the Tahgutfish is to post something that ain't true.
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MT: Dinger (who is not religious in any sense) is a historian and he detailed once how the Church has been a great sponsor of scientific inquiry over the last 500 years or so. Ask him about some time when he gets back from Portugal or wherever the hell he is.
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What Rude said, to a T.
All religions should be banned world wide. Some of the largest mass murders were done under the name of one religion or another.
Dog out.........
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Why do you hate religion, what has it ever done to you?
Now I bet you will I assume that I'm a religion church type right? :rolleyes:
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zzzzz
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Grun
You asking me why I hate them?
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Organized religion is a means to control the masses, plain and simple. The deities of each religion are born out of a need for humans to explain the unexplainable. As knowledge increases, the need for such deities decreases.
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It might be more accurate to say that true Christianity has been kidnapped by the Church.
The reputation of Christianity has been tainted by the numerous scoundrels who have used it to hide their crimes. If you want to know what Christ really taught and stood for, read the New Testament. He never shed the blood of another man, taught that people should love and respect one another, and refrain from passing judgement on the soul of anyone else. That statement may be an oversimplification of his teachings, but contain their essence.
If more members of humanity patterned their lives around the teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a better, more peaceful place. He never preached jihad.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by funkedup
MT: Dinger (who is not religious in any sense) is a historian and he detailed once how the Church has been a great sponsor of scientific inquiry over the last 500 years or so. Ask him about some time when he gets back from Portugal or wherever the hell he is.
Would love to see it.
There have been many Men-of-God who have made brilliant contributions to our knowledge base. Keppler, Mendel, Linnaius, Darwin (Erasmis not Charles), Bacon, the list goes on.
What I found offensively false was this: "monotheistic religion was the basis of human scientific curiosity. Before monothesism, people believed in multiple gods, or in animal spirits, which controlled the world. In such an environment man did not attempt to make sense of the world around him, as he believed that all things were subject to the whims of whatever the gods or spirits decided to do. With monotheism, man became curious to find out how the one god had designed the universe. This lead eventually to scientific thought. "
That is BS. Sorry I mean mistaken. The Greeks were not monotheistic, neither were the Babylonians nor the Egyptians (except for a brief period of Ra worship). And scientific thought certainly predates Christianity.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Rude,
What does your relationship with God do for you?
It has changed who I was....it has enabled me to be the father that my children deserve and the husband to my wife that I need to be.
In addition, and most importantly, my soul has been bought by the blood of God's son, Jesus Christ.
This decision in my life has made an incredible difference for me personally and at the same time, brought some very tough circumstances which I've had to bear.
To sum it up, I try and be a Monday morning christian rather than a Sunday morning christian, if you catch my drift:)
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Rude
Thanks for the reply.
I think I am a good person now, for me, Christian school and Church just brought pain and anguish..
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Grunz....
My parents are Roman Catholic. I was baptised, was an alter boy went to services evry Sunday or i could not live in my parent house. So i moved out when i was 15 got a job and have never entered a church since.
To say i was brought up in a strict religous upbringing would be an under statement. Both my brother and myself have had the crap beat out of us since we could start walking. I assumed that was how my Dad was brought up as well. Do something wrong in there eyes, beat the crap outa the kid. I have memories of walking to school in grade one wondering how i could cover the black & blue bruises on my legs.
I dont care how strick any religion is, beating a child till they are black & blue in the name of God is fediddlein BS.
When i was old enough to read, and saw how many people were being killed in the name of God ( based on there man made religion) i turned Agnostic.
To this day mass murders are being commited in the name of religion. This has been happening since the day man created religion and it will keep happening till religion destroys man.
Dog out.......
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Fanatacism is a bad thing .
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I do not want to start a flame war.
And if anyone believes that, I've got some Worldcom stock to sell.
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im roman catholic hehe and im glad to be that...
cause i dont want to be sucha suicide guys like tha palestinians are...
hehe
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Originally posted by ra
Before monothesism, people believed in multiple gods, or in animal spirits, which controlled the world. In such an environment man did not attempt to make sense of the world around him, as he believed that all things were subject to the whims of whatever the gods or spirits decided to do.
That is bull. Egyptians made quite a lot of sense of this world. Ancient greeks had universities, atomic theory of matter and productive research going on. Etc, etc.
All cultures had a religious theory of how universe was created. Why would it make them more curious if one God mane it rather than few, I don't follow.
On the value of religion - no comment.
Crusades were defencive enterprises.
If there were not Inquisition and religious witchhunts, people would have come up with more political or national reasons to kill each other anyway.
Other cultures would have been wrecked anyway.
miko
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Can any of you name a single war caused by religion?
The Crusades? Nope
War of the Roses? Nope
French Revolution? Nope
American Revolution? Nope
War of 1812? Nope
Civil War? Nope
Napoleonic Wars? Nope
World War I? Nope
World War II? Nope
Vietnam? Nope
The only thing religion may have caused were : The Spanish Inquisition- and this had many hidden agendas, and the Salem Witch trials
Religion HAS given humans a 'code of conduct' (though other things contribute also ie Laws). Without a code on conduct, this world would be a horrible place to live in.
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The royal "you" is used to mean "all of you". In other words, my words on that line were not intended only for you, though it is apparent you took it that way.
This is an old argument around here. I (and others) have been on the pro-religion side, others have been anti. It usually comes down to both sides polarized, no minds changed, and a few insults hurled to boot.
Then you have the guys that aren't really interested one way or another, they just hurl in jibes to see if they can get a rise.
In the end, I guess I don't wish to read the "enlightened" thoughts on how I am an idiot for believing, or that my religion is responsible for the most heinous acts of humanity against humanity. It's silly and indefensible, but I won't convince you of that any more than you will convince me the opposite, correct?
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Originally posted by fdiron
Can any of you name a single war caused by religion?
The Crusades? Nope
How do you figure? :confused:
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Opiate for the masses...
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The Crusades had a religious overtone, but I've read some plausible stuff that suggested the underlying factor was population control.
I.e. Church-men are like... Hum.. we have a lot of young men roaming around causing trouble, perhaps it would be best to give them a 'cause'.
Personally, although I'm not religious, I can see that it does serve a very useful social role in keep poor people happy and looking 'forward' instead of looking at right now with dissatisfaction. It is a good crowd controller.
It also plays a large part in teaching many people right and wrong. The world would be a much more violent and lawless place without organized religion.
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GTO, Stalin did a pretty damn good job himself. Wasn't religion quenched for a bit? I'm Catholic, proud and for blaming us for events 2000 years ago, is PATHETIC.
By your little toejamstorm you're admitting guilt to slavery 200 years ago. Ain't life a squeak?
K2
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Religion, as defined by the dictionary, is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances and often having a moral code for the conduct of human affairs."
I believe religion has value because of the spiritual nature of man. I cannot look up at the night time sky and not wonder about the uncountable numbers of stars, and ponder upon the vast distances between them and us? There's a lot of stuff out there we don't know about. Physics laws as we know 'em, may be different in some places. There is much our current science, as "modern"as it is, doesn't begin to cover in understanding the universe. We have "faith" in our science.
Religion is as important to man as science is. It addresses the other half of our being. We are spiritual beings and strive to seek God. It's our nature, and since religion does concern mankind's striving toward understanding, it is as valuable as our other basic needs of air, food, and shelter.
Though I'm not a particularly religious person now, I was for a while when I was younger. Seems like the older I get, the more cynical I become, so this early exposure to God was good for me, and did give me a set of values that help me today in my dealings with people and with life.
Les
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Course its a good thing. Everybody needs a GOD to squeak to when they die. HT, am I right? Thing to do is to come a knocking at his door or doorbell ringing then run like hell when he answers.
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In the 14 years of internet forums and newsgroups I've been part of, the non-believers always are the first to bring up the topic of religion and bash it. Its an insecurity moment for them, and a self-centered "I'm justified" attitude. They also tend to think that because they don't believe, somehow they envision themselves with "higher intellect". Not all, but most.
What Kieren said.
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Religion is only a problem if (a) it is abused for the benefit of the person espousing and/or controlling it; (b) it is intolerable of other religions or concepts; and (c) it is used as a tool for destruction.
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Hrm, nonbelievers are the first to question?
I don't know Rip, sounds almost too crazy to be true.
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Whatever you do, don't irritate the Ninjas or they might flip out and chop off your head.
And I won't even go into what the Jedi will do to you...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=493&ncid=762&e=5&u=/ap/20020829/ap_en_mo/star_wars_fans_1
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"Bring up" the topic, Fatty, not "question".
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Religion seems to make some people mellow, and other people nuts. So the answer is: "it depends".
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Here is my take.
I have friends and family who are very religious. In most cases they seem happy and well adjusted. In some cases they are even better than that.
I have one friend up in Portland who has become a devout Christian. He seems so content with himself and his family, that he should be the poster boy for Christianity. I envy his level of contentment sometimes, but I'm sure I could never become as devout as he either.
Religion is a good thing for most people. It has been used in horrible ways by horrible people too. Overall I think it has been beneficial to most individuals who practice it.
Just keep it out of our schools and science books!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Just keep it out of our schools and science books!
Just as long as the liberals keep Homosexuals and Lesbians from telling kids "its okay to have alternate lifestyles" out of our schools, then ya got a deal.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Just as long as the liberals keep Homosexuals and Lesbians from telling kids "its okay to have alternate lifestyles" out of our schools, then ya got a deal.
Sorry Rip, but that is just wrong. No one is saying it is ok to go get an alternate lifestyle. They are saying that you can still feel good about yourself even if you are different. Even you can feel good about yourself Rip.
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Okay, fair enough. We'll start sending Priests to the schools to deliver the same message in their context. ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Religion is a good thing for most people. It has been used in horrible ways by horrible people too. Overall I think it has been beneficial to most individuals who practice it.
That's what Voltaire said - something along the lines that if religion had not existed, it should have been invented for the ignorant lower classes.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
That's what Voltaire said - something along the lines that if religion had not existed, it should have been invented for the ignorant lower classes.
miko
See? Proves my point posted earlier in this thread (below). :)
"In the 14 years of internet forums and newsgroups I've been part of, the non-believers always are the first
to bring up the topic of religion and bash it. Its an insecurity moment for them, and a self-centered "I'm
justified" attitude. They also tend to think that because they don't believe, somehow they envision
themselves with "higher intellect". Not all, but most. "
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Rip,
You have to admit, Voltaire really was a very smart person.
People who state that they are smart because they do not believe are not as smart as they wish - the world abounds with examples of religious smart people and people of above-average but unexceptional intellect who managed to realise the fallacies of religion.
Temperament and character traits have a lot to do with accepting different worldviews.
Still, many smart people rightly attribute their unreligiosity to their intellectual capacity combined with character traits of being inclined to think rationally and being able to face reality.
Of course there are plenty of dumb people that believe that God does not exist because they were told so in the environment they grew up in. That kind of non-belief does not differ from any religion. If you call that kind of atheism a religion I would not argue. As someone said, it's just a belief on the scale from poly- to mono-theism one step further from polytheism.
At the same time it is irrelevant to me. If a person cannot think, how could I care what he thinks?
That is, of course only about intellectual aspect. Otherwise I may have reasons to care what he believes because it determines his motivations which may affect me - much like I care which way the wheels are turned in a car parked on an incline.
miko
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Lower class? How many of you that THINK this have the balls to say, "I'm Catholic, Baptist, Confuscist, Hindu, WHATEVER"?
If you are, ACCORDING to Voltaire the genius, you are lower class. Nothing like calling yourself a stupid bellybutton in public (if you practice religion, you are calling yourself with the Voltaire quote).
Rip, let's get some sandwich boards and write stuff on them "Religion doesn't exist, and other things to that effect."
I'm Catholic and a toejamload smarter than the majority of the people I run across, and I'm a two-year degree holder. Smart is easy, having Common Sense is another.
K2
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Smart is easy, having Common Sense is another.
K2
Hehe! I've always said that "Smart gets you a degree. Common sense keeps you alive!"
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Common sense doesn't keep you alive, street smarts do.
Common sense is all relative anyhow.
Some people think common sense would be there is no God. Other people think common sense is there is a God.
While other people think common sense is to not believe either until a lifetime of questioning and answering is almost to a close.
See, all relative. Street smarts keep you alive tho, not common sense.
-SW
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Street smarts is a catagory under "Common sense".;) But we can disagree on that too. :)
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Yeah, after I posted that... I thought about it.
Yer right. Common sense and street smarts keep you alive.. depending on the situation you're in.
-SW
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Are you religious Wulfe?
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No, why?
-SW
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I choose to keep my beliefs to myself, but lets just say I'm tolerant of anyones beliefs, except those Jedi wacko's, and obviously flawed extremist fundementalism beliefs (I think of Jim Jones, and Osama when I say that...)
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Just curious because I would have to think the ones stirring this nest for NO REASON, are not religious.
K2
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Masherbrum,
You have to agree with Voltaire in a practical matter - religious or any people have few problems with highly intelligent atheists - especially mentally balanced and of libertarian persuasion.
I do not care what you believe as long as you behave and not infringe on my liberties or force your views on me and my children.
As long as you do not train your children to hurt me and mine, it's not my right to decide if you instill God in them, love them, torture them or do whatever you want with them.
Of course the left - what we call "liberal" intellectuals are often fanatically and almost violently anti-religious but that may as well be their religion.
At the same time people of low intellect and little prospects of success in society are much more prone to violence and antisocial behavior and intellectual persuasion does not work on them. So a way to control their antisocial tendencies through painless belief system is great.
P.S. Voltaire is not here to defend from you putting crap into his mouth. But I am sure that he - living in predominantly religious culture - had an opportunity to observe plenty of intelligent religious people and not have an opinion you attribute to him. If your ead his letters addressed to the religious people of the time, you would not find any offences there based on religion.
Your attempt to claim yourself a victim of imagined slight is pathetic. Pretending to be offended where offence is never intended and has to be manufactured. Also, the way you express your thoughts makes me doubt that you are "smarter than the majority of the people" you ran across.
Rip, let's get some sandwich boards and write stuff on them "Religion doesn't exist, and other things to that effect."
Where the heck did that come from? Through which chain of logic? Who ever claimed religion did not exist?
Some people do not believe that supernatural creator exists, not religion - if you are capable of grasping the difference.
For instance being catholic you probably do not believe that Zeuss and Aphrodite exist or modern hindu pantheon. Does that mean you do not believe that ancient greeks did have a religion with those and many others as central figures? Modern hindus?
Nobody here disrespects Rip for being religious. If someone respects you less than you would like, religion may be not the reason for that.
miko
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I'm not stirring anything... but I guess if that's the way you want to see it, fine by me.
-SW
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Here's a thought for ya, Miko- suppose what Voltaire meant by the comment was that, had religion not been a reality, it would have been necessary to invent it for the control of the lower class?
You see, if you take the possible way of reading it I gave you, it would be possible to infer that, while Voltaire was an elitist, he was also a believer. ;)
Of course I am not suggesting this, but it does tend to make one a little more careful about how one attributes quotes, wouldn't you say?
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Miko, I'm smarter than you give me credit for. 1.) I don't insult, cut down others (practice what "you preach). 2.) I don't feel the need to slam religion, what's next on the hit parade?
Voltaire and other authors do not rule my life. I can give a rat's bellybutton if after sitting around all day in smoking jacket lighting cigars with $100 bills and say "Hey, Voltaire is a genius". Or if someone is not as well to do comes up with the same idea in his grey matter, who's better? Does the "bread winner" beat the "not as fortunate" person.
I live life, read, can careless how intelligent a person is. I help out strangers, flip a coin to a homeless, and all of the other things that a HUMAN BEING should do. It's called put yourself in their shoes, it must suck. The people who scoff at that last sentence, are snobs.
Enjoy life, keep flaming religion for no reason, YOU show your true colors Miko. Keep "trying to be right"
Masher
PS - Speaking of "classes", most Americans making $30,000-$70,000 think "Hey, I'm middle class". WRONG, it starts at $100,000. Go ahead debate it, I know someone will "have to right".
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IIRC Voltaire was jailed for Atheism.
My 2 favorite Voltairisms...
I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it.
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Seems as though some of us are a little too sensitive. Was Voltaire saying that only the lower class benefitted from religion? I don't think so.
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Kieran,
Whatever. We do know Voltaire was an atheist but he might as well have been religious and said that - about his own and any other religion.
We have plenty of examples of christian priests passing good (or bad) judgements on native religions they encountered. The non-violent ones were clearly prefered to those requiring ritual manslaughter or cannibalism.
I am pissed off because there is absolutely no offence intended or given by me by (mis?)quoting Voltaire. In fact half of pro-religious arguments you hear around is how usefull religious is - as if utility has anything to do with being correct. Why the heck did not Masherbrum assume that I made a compliment to religion rather than offended his and Rip's intelligence? Because he is just looking for a fight and is willing to imagine any pretext for it.
miko
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Religion usually is sensative, what in the heck did you expect? A happy, cheery discussion?!
If someone else does NOT believe in a religion. That is STRICTLY their choice. I don't frown upon it, everyone should have that right, it is their life after all. I grew up in a non-religious family and after 24 years, I became Catholic. I don't knock ANYONE, but when I'm knocked, I take offense. I DO NOT treat a "non-believer" any different from a "Believer". But it is childish to slam religions, regardless of what they believe in.
Masher
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Miko, you may be pissed, but I am not, and you shouldn't be. A computer screen might make it seem like I am pissed, I'm not. If all of us were at a roundtable, I wouldn't be raising my voice.
K2
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If we were at a roundtable I'd buy the first round. :)
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Yea, religion is sort of a touchy subject. I think I'm to cynical to be able to accept anything 'on faith'. Sometimes I'm rather jealous of religious people, since they can point to God and say "look, there is a reason that everything happens, and this life is really just preparation for our everlasting life to follow." Rather beats my outlook of "There really isn't a REASON for anything, you aren't put on earth for any purpose, and when you die all that happens is the worms eat your body".
Hum... come to think of it, maybe I should go get some religion...
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Looks like Buddhaism is for you Urchin!
K2
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Ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
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Masherbrum: Enjoy life, keep flaming religion for no reason, YOU show your true colors Miko. Keep "trying to be right"
Where did you find me flaming religion? By mentioning Voltaire? What, is he on the list of proscribed books?
I never made a secret of my non-religiocity. At the same time I stated my preference in living in religious society as long as separation of church from state is maintained.
I am fortunate to work in an environment where most of the people I run across are smarter than I am - however improbable it may sound. And quite a few of them are religious and command my utmost respect.
I just made a statement above that I view dumb atheists exactly the same as I view dumb religious people - and do not care for either kind much.
Doesn't that indicate thet I would never attempt to argue validity of religion by implying mental inferiority of it's adherents- if I ever cared to? Even if I did, wouldn't I be arguing with a smart person who can understand my arguments? And would I be trying to persuade a smart person that he is dumb?
Why would I ever be offending or arguing or even talking to a person I consider dumb? What would be a point?
I do not start religion-bashing threads. I do make comments on particular inconsistencies to show off my erudition in an internet version of pissing content but mostly to practice my English and in hope to elicit some smart and educating responce from a few people on this board who are worth listening to.
If you ever suspect that I may be offending someone, it would be more productive to ask me. I will gladly confirm or dispell it and edit my post for more clarity, if needed. Of course if you just look for a pretext to fly off the handle, be my guest...
midnight Target: Seems as though some of us are a little too sensitive. Was Voltaire saying that only the lower class benefitted from religion? I don't think so.
Absolutely not. What he ment was that society benefitted when lower class had a religion - even if it was detrimental to the lower class as religion sometimes was. Bunching together and exchanging bodily fluids during church rituals was an exellent way to spread desease. A single mother and her bastard baby would have benefitted from not being rejected by society for religious reason. A divorce is often better than alternative but catholicism does not allow it. Without religious insistence on obeying authority they could have been more active in demanding higher wages or better living conditions, etc.
Voltaire could not think of a better way of keeping his chamber-maid honest than religious belief in all-seing punishing God. They did not have close-circuit TV surveillance then.
miko
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That's what Voltaire said - something along the lines that if religion had not existed, it should have been invented for the ignorant lower classes.
" just made a statement above that I view dumb atheists exactly the same as I view dumb religious people - and do not care for either kind much.
Doesn't that indicate thet I would never attempt to argue validity of religion by implying mental inferiority of it's adherents- if I ever cared to? Even if I did, wouldn't I be arguing with a smart person who can understand my arguments? And would I be trying to persuade a smart person that he is dumb?
Why would I ever be offending or arguing or even talking to a person I consider dumb? What would be a point?"
You're a rather judgemental person Miko. Why? I've laughed at people who do this all of my life and wonder why they feel they are better than others. I don't even want to know, what compels you to think this way.
Ignorant Lower Class, hmm.
I'm through Miko, you continue this on your own, your flag is riddled with holes.
K2
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I'm through Miko, you continue this on your own, your flag is riddled with holes.
Oh, yea - you want to have the last word but I know you will be back to read the reply after spewing a bit of nonsensisal garbage on me. I would say that I know your type - but that would be judgemental...
You're a rather judgemental person Miko.
In my non-religion being judjemental is not a sin. Unlike you I would not have to deny when practicing it. But even if I am judgemental, how did you figure it out from what I posted? There was not a bit of judgement there. In fact there was not even my position there but Voltaire's.
I did say I preferred to live among religious middle class but nowhere did I say that I agree with his idea of imposing religion on lower class (the one below the middle one). I recognise that there are benefits from it to society but I am not sure those benefits outweight the drawbacks and risks. Dumb religious lower class are only good while they listen to you not to steal and misbehave and adhere to family values. Sooner or later a charismatic leader will come up that would tell them to do jihad in the name of the same religion.
Of course Voltaire's middle class was very different from ours - there were quite a few capable people among those without much opportunity to advance.
What? I offended you by saying that I do not care what dumb people think? Or by labeling some people dumb? Dumb is a pretty objective definition. Say IQ <100. Or whatever.
Did I imply that being dumb was wrong or sinfull and that those people chose to be dumb out of inherent evilness?
Because judgement must involve "right" and "wrong". Otherwise it's called "measurement".
I really do not care what dumb people think because it is of no interest to me - as opposed to what they may know that I do not which is interesting to me. Are you any different?
If someone can impress me with fancy logical schemes worth my time, such person would not be dumb, would he?
And lower class is ignorant and dumb in US of A because smart and learned have ample opportunity for advancement here - unlike in Voltaire's times.
I bet you will not be able contain youself and will shoot another argument having nothing to do whith what I said or what I think. Bring it on...
miko
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Miko, do you realize you just wrote a paragraph on the fact that we agreed?
I know English practice. I admire that actually, couldn't write 2 words in Russian.
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Originally posted by Fyre
If more members of humanity patterned their lives around the teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a better, more peaceful place. He never preached jihad.
Regards, Shuckins
What he ^ said.
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I try to pattern my life after Jesus Christs teachings. However I have difficulty with it since I'm always surrounded by amazinhunks who are going to HELL. And they know it.
:mad:
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If more members of humanity patterned their lives around the teachings of Jesus Christ the world would be a better, more peaceful place. He never preached jihad.
Who was that guy who brought not the peace but sword?
OK, I am only joking. Jesus is a good example for all people to follow.
miko
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not to debate too much but.... If you live long enough you will find yourself in a situation that you can't handle yourself. You will need to draw on some spiritual strength that you did not know you possesed.
I don't know what to call that but it is a good thing.
lazs
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I have a practical concern. If considerable part of the population believes that there will be rapture soon, they have absolutely no interest in ensuring that the Earth will still be liveable in the future.
They also believe that some outside force may interfere and not allow ecological disaster.
So they use my tax money to subcidise most ecologically-damaging agriculture, help Israel because it will bring in the second coming - not because they have any concern for jews living there or their democracy, and other purely religion-mandated policies.
Whether rapture occure or not, I and my children will still be here and I resent that kind of practical policies resulting from their religious views forced on me.
Nothing personal.
miko
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miko
aren't you late for your cloning appointment ???
LOL - the world needs more EXACTLY like you
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Originally posted by miko2d
I have a practical concern. If considerable part of the population believes that there will be rapture soon, they have absolutely no interest in ensuring that the Earth will still be liveable in the future.
They also believe that some outside force may interfere and not allow ecological disaster.
So they use my tax money to subcidise most ecologically-damaging agriculture, help Israel because it will bring in the second coming - not because they have any concern for jews living there or their democracy, and other purely religion-mandated policies.
Whether rapture occure or not, I and my children will still be here and I resent that kind of practical policies resulting from their religious views forced on me.
Nothing personal.
miko
God's Word teaches stewardship over all aspects of our lives, including creation itself.
Do you really believe that correct policy can save you and your family?
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In a previous life, I was Torquemada, so I have no problem with religion... in moderation... at least as long as you believe as I do.
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Religion can be a good or bad thing. It is the people that make religion what it is.