Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrawn on August 28, 2002, 04:51:50 PM
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Mother in shock over teen's sentence
Authorities had recommended lighter sentences for the teenager, but a judge says 10 years. ''It's always somebody else's fault other than their own,'' the judge said.
By CARRIE JOHNSON, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published August 28, 2002
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INVERNESS -- Earlier this year, 16-year-old Adam Bollenback swiped a six-pack of beer from a refrigerator in a woman's garage and got caught by Citrus County sheriff's deputies.
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/08/28/Citrus/Mother_in_shock_over_.shtml
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Sounds wrong.
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10 years for stealing beer?
Thats wrong!
F*ck the kid up for life over beer?
Jeez......
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read it the kid was a punk, he already had assault and battery charges, this was not his only crime.
though when he comes out of jail he will be one of the most violent persons in america.
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No GtoRA2, the kid f*cked himself up for life over beer.
Ten yrs seems a bit much though and the kid will probably skate on appeal.
Sounds like the judge was doing Mom and anyone who might encounter this kid along the way a favor.
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Read the story. The kid has a history of being in trouble with the police and finally a Judge got tired of looking at his dumb ass. The clown has two prior battery convictions plus an aggrevated assault conviction. Then after sentancing he flashes his mother a peace sign? 10 years seems bout right to me, but I doubt this dumb bellybutton will ever learn.
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sounds like he got the "just one more time boy" speech. he screwed the pooch he can marry it.
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Lol damn you guys are right lol
The ONE time I don't read the damn story lol
Yeah the kid sounds like a punk. Ten years really does seem harsh for the crime though.
Prolly wont make a difference, he will prolly just get worse with age.
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He does sound like punk. But after reading the circumstance of his previous crimes, I hardly think he's a harden criminal. And I don't see how 10 years of getting raped by Bubba is going to help.
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10 years means he will get 4 at most.
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Yep. Just a poor, misunderstood youth.
Slap on the wrist with a plastic ruler and turn the little scamp back out on the streets.
Oh, those KIDS!
Now, if he actually goes and KILLS someone after this.. well... certainly a few weeks in jail would be in order. Might have to be harsh on him then!
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Originally posted by Toad
Yep. Just a poor, misunderstood youth.
No one said he was a poor misunderstood youth.
Slap on the wrist with a plastic ruler and turn the little scamp back out on the streets.
Who said he should get a slap on the wrist?
Now, if he actually goes and KILLS someone after this.. well... certainly a few weeks in jail would be in order. Might have to be harsh on him then!
Uh, he hasn't killed anyone. Quit misrepresentin'.
Did you read the whole article? We are talking about ten years of hard time for the crime of stealing a six pack and escaping custody after getting caught.
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Dude that is a tragedy. Ridiculous enough to put somebody in jail for 10 years for stealing beer. But add in the fact that he is a minor with a serious mental illness and I am sickened by the judge's decision. Sentences like that will only cause a lot of us to continue to lose respect for what this country calls "law and order".
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20 lashes, with the cat 'o nine tails, then keel-haul his ass, and if he still lives after that; flog him round the fleet, then hang the lil toejam from the yardarm, and leave the corpse swinging in the wind fer a month.
do it very publicly. film it. send a copy of the film to every elementary and junior-high school in the country. make it required viewing. make a few similar examples of any local punks at the same time.
just think of the hundreds of thousands of lives that could be improved by making examples of the incorrigable few.
:D
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I bet I did worse crimes, just that I never got caught.
Now though I hesitate to even jaywalk.
When that kid comes out of prison he will be a menace.
[in jail]
bubba: so what are you in for? i killed a judge
kid: stole a six pack of beers
bubba: did you kill the cop who caught ya?
kid: no I just stole the beer
bubba: well if you had killed the cop you'd be a free man
kid: maybe you are right...
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Danny said it pretty good once.
Johnny was bad, even as a child everybody could tell
Everyone said if you don't get straight
You'll surely go to hell
But Johnny didn't care
He was an outlaw by the time that he was
Ten years old
He didn't wanna do what he was told
Just a prankster, juvenile gangster
His teachers didn't understand
They kicked him out of school
At a tender early age
Just because he didn't want to learn things
(Had other interests)
He liked to burn things
The lady down the block
She had a radio that Johnny wanted oh so bad
So he took it the first chance he had
Then he shot her in the leg
And this is what she said
Only a lad
You really can't blame him
Only a lad
Society made him
Only a lad
He's our responsibility
Only a lad
He really couldn't help it
Only a lad
He didn't want to do it
Only a lad
He's underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused
His parents gave up they couldn't influence his attitude
Nobody could help
The little man had no gratitude
And when he stole the care
Nobody dreamed that he would
Try to take it so far
He didn't mean to kill the poor man
Who had to go and die
It made the judge cry
Only a lad
He really couldn't help it
Only a lad
He didn't want to do it
Only a lad
He's underprivileged and abused
Perhaps a little bit confused
It's not his fault that he can't believe
It's not his fault that he can't behave
Society made him go astray
Perhaps if we're nice he'll go away
Perhaps he'll go away
He'll go away
(Repeat chorus)
Hey there Johnny you really don't fool me
You get away with murder
And you think it's funny
You don't give a damn if we live or if we die
Hey there Johnny boy
I hope you fry!
F.
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That would be one dead judge.
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Interesting....
"He's an adult and he's going to be treated as an adult,"
Hey! That judge is smokin' da crack yo!
And then... But Porter said the explanations illustrated an inability to accept blame.
So, when a kid is taking meds for a mental condition... it's somebody else's fault.
Lemme get this straight, the kid is mental... he takes meds... but it's somebody else's fault?
Welp, that is one reeeeeettttaaaarrrrrrdddded judge.
-SW
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Originally posted by Animal
10 years means he will get 4 at most.
In Florida we have a statute that requires convicts serve at least 85% of their sentance. So it is at least 8.5 years for this kid. I agree that all the judge has accomplished is to turn a troubled kid into a prison educated hardened criminal who will certainly do something much worse than start high school fights and steal beer when he's released 8.5 years from now.
The judge is probably up for re-election this year and is showing that he's tough on crime.:rolleyes:
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Yup, turn him loose... then hope he moves right next door to the guys crying for lighter sentences.
The point of putting an habitual offender away is to keep them from doing the inevitable... or is this an experiment we have to conduct ad infinitum?
I've lived across the street from sweety-pies just like this, and I don't remember any liberals running up and giving them hugs and such. I had to keep my kids and wife indoors because those kids were so "misunderstood".
So this boy decided to blow his freedom on a sixpack? So he has a mental disorder? Get him help, but get him off the street. His mental disorder is a ticket to ride otherwise.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Yup, turn him loose... then hope he moves right next door to the guys crying for lighter sentences
I'll take him living next to me. If you take him living next to you when he gets out of jail.
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Read my line above- I have already.
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You live next to criminals that have done hard time?
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I lived across the street from a whole family of them, ranging in age from approximately 40 to teens. Yes, some of those darlings fit the description of the boy above to a "T". I can tell you our neighborhood ceased being safe the minute they moved in, and the drug sales started immediately. All night, every night, cars came and went every 15 minutes at their house. They harrassed my wife, kids, and myself, and all my neighbors. They threw objects at us from their house. Stuff disappeared around the yard. Drunk kids yelling all hours of the night.
Yeah, heaven on earth.
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Why won't you answer the question?
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So guy was a pain in the ass, and even if he wasn't prosecuted for that reason, judge gave him a "little extra" for it.
Sounds like a parody of justice in MAD-tv :D
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Sorry, I was editing. I thought I saw a different response from you the first time- did you change yours?
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Np. I did just edit, question(S) to question in the post above.
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I'll tell you the "potato" story when I have a bit more time... hafta run for now...
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Take care. I think HTC needs a chat room. ;)
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Liberals are always so understanding and sympathetic of criminals...... as long as they are not the victoms.
How do you make a conservative? Mug a liberal
Liberals make me sick
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Nuke your statement would be interesting except a lot of us who think this sentence is crap are not liberals by any stretch of the imagination. People who would put a mentally disabled minor in jail for 10 years for stealing beer MAKE ME SICK.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I'll take him living next to me. If you take him living next to you when he gets out of jail.
No Thrawn, sorry but if I had my druthers I'd prefer this young perp have to do 8.5 years in a Florida penetentary as opposed to getting a slap on the wrist and moving into my neighborhood. I'm not intrested in having a four time convicted felon living next door to me even if he is only 17 years old. As far as I'm concerned I'm glad society won't be a victim for this POS for 8 1/2 years and I only hope that after his eventual release he's caught the first time he pulls a strong-arm robbery or assaults somebody and he's given a three strikes sentance and locked up forever. Sorry, but Society has trash, and this kid- plus his whiney, drug addicted single parent mother- are dregs and burdens on a society that really can no longer afford indulging the trashier segment of human debris.
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ya know... Effie said
"10 years seems bout right to me, but I doubt this dumb bellybutton will ever learn."
then Kierian Yup, turn him loose... then hope he moves right next door to the guys crying for lighter sentences.
then nuke Liberals are always so understanding and sympathetic of criminals...... as long as they are not the victoms.
You guys along with that judge should be locked up for 10 years in an Ashcroft camp for the crime of hate. Your insane.. a 16 year old?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Liberals are always so understanding and sympathetic of criminals...... as long as they are not the victoms.
How do you make a conservative? Mug a liberal
Liberals make me sick
guy stole a 6 pack of beer..and got 10 years of hard time for it..at 17 years old..
I would give him a 6 pack a week to keep him out of prison for christ sakes.
give your retarded head a shake.
How long do you think that the CEOs will get for stealing millions of cases of beer...
How much do you think the Judges son would get for such a pathetic crime.
This is right up there with the packistani gang rape thread.
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No Thrawn, sorry but if I had my druthers I'd prefer this young perp have to do 8.5 years in a Florida penetentary as opposed to getting a slap on the wrist and moving into my neighborhood.
No problem Effie, he'll move in your neighborhood after he does the 8.5 years... sheesh
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Originally posted by 10Bears
No Thrawn, sorry but if I had my druthers I'd prefer this young perp have to do 8.5 years in a Florida penetentary as opposed to getting a slap on the wrist and moving into my neighborhood.
No problem Effie, he'll move in your neighborhood after he does the 8.5 years... sheesh
No thanks 10Bears, parole the kid to Hawaii instead. I heve no desire to have a four time convicted felon living in my neighborhood, rather he's 17 of 77. Some people are genetically defective and they're predisposed to commit crimes. Obviously the judge saw something in this young man that made him feel like he deserved a lengthy prison sentance rather than the song-and-dance routine until he's 25 years old the juvenile justice system offers. Maybe it was the three prior violent felonies on his juvenile record or the smirks on his face as he flashed peace signs to his oh-so-protectant mother but whatever the judge saw I can find no fault with putting away repeat violent felons for as long as we possibly can. Sorry.
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The kid is certainly troubled, but bad enough to get 10 years in prison at the age of 16?! You people are nuts. The judge should have listened to the recommendations of the Dept of Corrections or the Dept of Juvenille Justice.
SOB
PS...Kieran, I'm sorry you have to live across the street from amazinhunks, but this kid has nothing to do with them.
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Sounds like he never had someone take his sorry bellybutton outside and pull the old belt across it a couple of dozen times. When someone says the following they are just plainly showing their stupidity. If I had done ONE of those pre-cursors to stealing the beer and escaping I seriously doubt I would be sitting here typing this tonight. If my Dad was not able (Army guy not home alot) handle the situation you can bet that my Grandfather or Uncle would have gladly helped my Mom with me.
Cheryl Bollenback also told the judge her son was taking several medications to help him with mental problems, including bipolar disorder. She said most of his offenses have happened when he refused to take his medicine.
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I have seen D.I.'s cure bipolar disorders, overnight. To bad the Army doesn't do that anymore.
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Whether or not the little turd is a habitual criminal or suffers a mental handicap is kind of tough to decide. We haven't heard both sides of the past incidents to decide which is the case. Do I think that the 10 year sentence for stealing beer is harsh? Yeah, if that is all it was. He was charged with petty theft (which I think would cover the $5 six pack) along with burglary and escape.
In addition, the only thing that we know about his past is mainly from the mother. I will tell you, as someone who is responsible for student discipline, the excuses that the mom uses for these various incidents seem very familiar. I can understand exactly what the judge was thinking. Parents will make excuses to protect their kids. They do this when they come into my office trying to get their kids out of detention, probation, suspension and expulsion. Until you actually have dealt with parents "defending" their child's actions in a detached, professional situation, it is tough to understand why the judge did what he did. I understand it, though that doesn't mean that I think 10 years is reasonable. I also think, given the history, that the recommended sentences seem a bit inadequate as well.
Anyways, I am kind of in agreement with most people concerning what this kid is going to be like when he gets out. During his time inside, that little toejam will become one bad mother. You know them barbell lifting and pedophile torturing gigantors will teach this turd the secrets of gymkata. If this happens, we all better watch out. This kid will GYMKATA our tulips straight to hell!!!!!!!
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Elfenwoof arches back in his computer chair a smile draping across his face, satisfied how he explained it all to 10Bears about that bandit pre felon he was ready to hit the hay as they say in the midwest. Yeah who needs those undesirables in our fine society. Why, all they want to do is grow up and rob people. Effie goes outside to make sure the can lights are all adjusted correctly on the largest American flag in the neighborhood, and then it’s lights out at a proper decent hour in the heartland.
The next morning Ellfinwoof remembers he has a meeting in Eau Clair about 40 miles away. So he’s off first to buy $10.00 worth of gas. Standing there pumping away he ponders just what a great country this is. “Ah Geese now look what I did” the pump meter reads $10.03. He reaches into his pocket for the three cents but remembers his lovely wife of twenty years had put out a freshly pressed pair of pants and there’s no change! He checks the cab of his dairy truck “gosh darn” he exclaims no change there either. “the lady at the gas station will just have to understand” he reasons.
“I’m sorry sir” the lady exclaims “IF THE PUMP READS $10.03 THEN THAT’S WHAT I WANT!”
“Will that’s fine” Elfenwolf replies “I’ll be happy to drive by tomorrow and give you your damn three cents”
“DON’T CUSS AT ME, WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?... IF YOU DON’T GIVE ME THAT THREE CENTS RIGHT THIS SECOND I’LL BE FORCED TO CALL THE POLICE!!!!!”
Laughing “Ma’am, with all due respect, if you call the police over three measly cents the cops might haul you off to jail for wasting their time”
And with that Elfenwolf hops into his dairy truck and roars out of the station and onto the highway. “silly woman” he wonders out loud. Fifteen minutes pass and as the slightly rolling hills give way to ever changing farmlands. He hopes his business in Eau Clare doesn’t take much time as he is hoping to get back to his computer soon enough for some more Ace’s High fun. Some emergency vehicles are approaching from the rear, there must be an accident up ahead he thought.
PULL OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD blared the Wisconsin State patrol car speaker Me? thought Elfenwolf quickly pulling over
“KEEP YOUR HANDS OUT THE WINDOW” barked the trooper”
“WALK BACKWARDS TO THE BACK OF THE TRUCK” Elfenwolf did as he was told. “NOW GET ON THE GROUND FACE DOWN!!!”
“face down?... officers... wait.. I can explain” blurted the shocked Elfenwolf
“WHAT’S THE MATTER YOU DON’T diddlyIN’ SPEAKIE THE ENGLISH? I SAID FACE DOWN!!!!!” Screamed the police officer
Once the prep was firmly secured and mirandized he was shoved rudely into the back of the cruiser.
“Listen officers, I have a very important meeting at the University of Wisconsin and am already late, I....
“Hey did you hear that Charlie?... This piece of toejam has a meeting at the University of Wisconsin” Heh-heh-heh-heh chortled Charlie. “Say, what did you say your name was?”. “Elfenwolf sir”
“Elfenshit was it?”
“Uh.. no sir that’s Elfenwo...”
“Well no matter, you can tell it to the judge.
“Alright Mr. Elfenshit you can step out of the car now. We have finger printing, mug shots, and full FBI check to make sure your not one of those terrorists.”
“Um.. excuse me”
“What is it now Elfenshit?”
“That’s Elfenwolf”
“Yeah whatever, what do ya want?”
“What am I being charged with?”
“What are you being charged with... hey did you hear that Charlie?.. Your being charged with thief of gasoline a class C felony in this state.
“But I paid for the... “
“Hey dumbshit, don’t make our jobs any harder, the gas station attendant told us you didn’t’ pay. Now if you please, step right this way we have a cozy little room for you to sit in.
“I want to speak to an attorney”
“Don’t worry you’ll get your one phone call you can call your attorney or if you don’t have money the court will assign you a public defender.”
Forty-five minutes pass. Poor Elfenwolf.. What to do.. When they finally allow him to make his one phone call should he call his wife? She could call a lawyer and rush down with the bail money-- Oh the trauma what a nightmare! What if she laughs when he explains this whole matter is over three diddlying cents.. oh my he thought... I said a cuss word! That’s what happens when they throw you in the slammer.. you start saying BAD words..
“Mr. Elfenwolf? Hi I’m your public defender Fran Colter.”
“Public defender? but I...”
“Mr. Elfenwolf how do you want to plead in this case?”
“I’m not guilty of any...”
“You say your not guilty of defrauding a gas station attendant?”
“Well I.. I didn’t have any... this is all very silly and besides I‘m very hungry and want a hot dish”
“Mr. Elfenwolf if you plead not guilty your be placed in county lock up for five days until your trial. If you plead no contest I can get you out of here today.. Arraignment is in 15 minutes..” “What!! 15 minutes??”
“They do things fast around here.”
All rise the right honorable Judge Fritz Hollings presiding.
Bailiff : case number 37532 Airhead Elfenwolf
Judge: “Mr Elfenwolf how do you plead?”
Effie: “Well your honor, this lady wants me to plead no contest”
Judge: “Is the defendant ready for sentencing?”
Effie: Sentencing?... wait a minute just hold your horses, this is supposed to be just the arraignment.
Miss Colter: In Wisconsin a no contest verdict the defendant can be sentenced the very same day.
Judge: “Will the defendant please stand, Mr. Airhead Elfenwolf I sentence you to 10 years in the Wisconsin State Penitentiary.
Effie “WHAT!!! SAY WHAT..... what did he say?????” there must be some mistake! there must be some mistake!!!
Judge: WHAP!! “next case”
(To be cont. 1AM here.. need to work in morning)
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I would have given him 20 if he let the beer get warm. He's a punk anyways. Later Beer-clepto.
Karaya2
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What's worse is when the jail sentance is at the other end of the spectrum.
Here in the UK a 19yr old ploughed into a pedestrian after an all day drinking session. He had never had a driving lesson in his life and had "borrowed" his dad's car. The 53yr old victim was in a coma 3 weeks and his still presently in hospital. He cannot sit or stand, is incontinent and has to be fed through a peg in his stomach- he expected never to fully recover.
The 19yr old got 9 months!!!
Ooops, forgot to add it was a hit and run. The kid ran from the scene after he had hit the 53 yr old.
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The kid that broke into my house has broken into dozens of others (according to other kids that know/knew him) he has been caught for a lot of petty crime and has spent some time in jail on and off... His parents have washed their hands of him and he has stolen from them and relatives on numerous occassions. He is a worhless POS and a one man/boy petty crime wave. If he has anything of value.... it used to belong to someone else and they don't know he has it.
If he were sent to prison for ten years then everyone would get a ten year break from him.
that's really all there is to it.
lazs
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The mother should also go to prison for 10 years.
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Guys... you're basing your assessment of the court's decision based solely on what the mother is telling you about her child.
Maybe if the paper would have bothered getting some facts instead of motherese heresay things would be a bit more clear.
AKDejaVu
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That's a good point...my opinion was based soley on the content of that article.
SOB
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That is all we have to go on DJ.
Is that so different than assuming the mother is not telling the truth?
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No, MT, but logic would suggest that, since two of his prior felonies occured while he was already in custody, we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg with this kid. I wonder how many burgulries, shopliftings, petty crimes ond other crap this kid has pulled? It would be intresting to hear what this kid's neighbors have to say about him.
Sorry, all, but I have zero tolorance for this kind of loser. He's chosen to follow a path that eventually will lead to some innocent victim getting injured or killed and if a judge gives him a too-harsh sentance then that's just tough- he should have stopped his criminal activities after his second felony- or his third- sheeesh, he obviously wasn't learning with the customary slap on the wrist the juvenile justice system hands out.
Youth is no excuse when it comes to felons. I heard about a case here in Sacramento where a 12 year old boy was arrested for raping a nine year old girl. Who wants to tell this girl's father that the rapist should get a lighter sentance because he's only 12?
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It's not his age, it's his mental state.. or lack thereof.
I don't think he should go to jail, I think he should go to the nuthouse and not be able to leave for atleast 4 years.
-SW
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I'm with Lazs and Elf on this one... the boy needs to be gone. Put him into whatever type enclosure you see fit, but his record says everything I need to know. This is a career criminal in the making, and the best we can do is to provide interruptions to that career. And to be blunt, we shouldn't have to wait until he kills someone after they surprise him in the process of breaking into a home.
My neighbors I talked about? Anyone in the neighborhood that was outdoors was catcalled, hooted, or had objects thrown at them. Everyone just went indoors and stayed there. This made me ill, and I decided I wouldn't, and if it was to be a confrontation, so be it.
I got out of my car one day after work, turned to pick up some trash laying in my yard, and a potato came hurling out the front door of my neighbors house, narrowly missing me.
That was it.
I have always had a trigger- I'm not a violent person by nature- but I have a very strong fight-or-flight instinct, and I gave up running a long time ago. I picked up the potato, walked over to their front door, knocked, one of the two fools at home opened the door and I handed him the potato.
"If you do that again I will have the law in."
"F*** you! mgpsn sapdjf asdfj asdf..."
(Funny thing about one of those kids, he couldn't speak clearly unless he was cursing, and then he had perfect enunciation.)
Fine. I walked across the street, but as I entered my property, the other fellow comes out the door and starts the gangsta crap on me, getting his back up, threatening me, etc.
"Show me your driver's licence." says I.
"Why?" he asks.
"Simple. If you're 18 I'm going to make your dream come true."
He yelled some more (didn't produce his license, though), and I went in and called the police. I went back outside and waited. The boys yelled at me until the police arrived, then ran in and hid. The police saw them go in, saw them looking out the back windows, but of course couldn't do anything if they didn't answer the door. I was furious.
Then I finally got smart.
"Hey, do you know they have traffic here nonstop all night? Do you also know they have a minor child with a child living in this house? Oh, you know that? The child is on file at welfare? I think I'll call welfare about that. I also know who rents the house to them, think I'll call there, too."
By 5:00 that evening the whole troop was standing on the porch talking to a detective about the drugs.
By 5:30 they were back on the porch talking to welfare.
By 6:00 the landlord had called and said they had 30 days to get out.
I don't care where they went. I know they all needed to be locked up, and there was no "program" that was going to make them all better. Time to give up on that pipe dream for career criminals.
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Kieren, you need to be smarter than that.
A lot smarter.
You can't compare this kid with those kids, just because they appear to be the same in terms of committing crimes.
Otherwise you are just ignorantly generalizing because of instances in the past with completely unrelated people.
Don't let your emotions of dealing with those people get in the way of your judgement of this person.
Especially when you've had ZERO confrontation or involvement with this individuals life.
-SW
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I'm sorry SW, could you relate the personal experience you've had with this individual?
Can you take only the small snapshot I've given you and understand what my family and entire neighborhood went through?
Can you tell me what experience you have with dealing with troubled teens, and the success stories you've enjoyed in turning them around?
Granted, I am not as bitter as I sound, but there are times when you have to cut the rope. That is a reality some people aren't willing to face.
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"Who wants to tell this girl's father that the rapist should get a lighter sentance because he's only 12?"
He should get a lighter sentence than a 20 year old certainly.
Anyone here still the same person they were when they were 16? or 12? (16 yr. olds need not answer)
How bout you Rip? I seem to recall a story about driving underage and such at 14? Elfie... you always been on the right side of the law? How about you drug users or especially the former drug users?
Everyone is just so quick to pull the trigger. Maybe this kid is a lost cause, maybe not. We will never know now. He's going to criminal college on an 8.5 year scholarship.
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I'm sorry SW, could you relate the personal experience you've had with this individual?
No, neither can you. That's my point. Rather than base your feelings/thoughts about him on your past experiences with completely seperate individuals in a completely different part of the US, wouldn't it make more sense to view this in terms of different circumstances?
Maybe this kid can be rehabilitated- but it ain't gonna happen in jail. Keep that in mind.
Can you take only the small snapshot I've given you and understand what my family and entire neighborhood went through?
I've dealt with a bunch of irate amazinhunks when they run into problems with their computers.
Should I treat or think everyone with a computer problem that comes to me will be an irate amazinhunk?
I've dealt with some pretty irate amazinhunks that are middle-aged. Some of 'em like to challenge me to fist fights.
Should I treat all middle-aged amazinhunks the same way, and circumvent their fist fight by throwing the first punch?
Can you tell me what experience you have with dealing with troubled teens, and the success stories you've enjoyed in turning them around?
No, can you? There are "troubled" teens out there that do get turned around. But, like I said, jail is not the answer. It makes them more troubled and any chance of rehabilitation goes right out the window.
Their first time in jail is never their last when they get sent there, remember that, and remember that it was you who wanted to send them there in the first place.
Now, if you wouldn't mind paying the taxes for him to stay there... and pay for mine too... then I don't give a rat's ass. But I don't wanna pay for some kid to go to jail just because you can't see any other alternative- and yes, there are far more alternatives than the big house where he WILL become a hardened criminal.
Granted, I am not as bitter as I sound, but there are times when you have to cut the rope. That is a reality some people aren't willing to face.
The other side of the coin is that you just further diddly 'em up by doing that. Maybe you can sleep in your nice bed at night comfortable in the knowledge that you just screwed up someone's life because you wanted to be a hard bellybutton based on past experiences with entirely different people...
And that's my point- jail is the place for already hardened criminals. Not the place you send someone so that they can become one.
-SW
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:rolleyes: liberals
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it would be nice if we had a lottery of punishments borrowed from all around the world..
that way some people could be caned, some could have their hands cut off, some would be executed etc..
draw straws or pull a paper out of a hat or whatever..
Maybe then people would be a bit more discouraged.
but then again maybe not...
This kid definately needs to be caned imo....
then remove a hand next time he does it...
Third strike and he gets shipped off to France.
eliminate prisons entirely..just give the punishment and go..
could call it the "swift justice drive-thru"
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Third strike and he gets shipped off to France
(blow coffee through the nose award) lol
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You guys that avocate locking up minors in adult prisons are truly sick you know that?...
I thought Effie was joking..
Let see if this kid should get 10 years for stealing a 6pack of beer, what should Key Ley get for stealing 30 billion dollars from California?... Drawn and quartered with each piece of his body hung on spikes in foru parts of the country?..
Kerian what do you and hortland do on April 20th go down to you cellers and have a toast to daddy?
Unbeliveable!
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Originally posted by Kanth
Third strike and he gets shipped off to France.
Now THATS cruel and unusual!!!!:D
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Let's see what experience I have....
17 years of teaching...
26 years of coaching...
Have I run into troubled teens? How could I not have? Have some of them turned around? You bet! But... there comes a time when it is obvious it just isn't going to happen. And yes, I'll take my experience of it over any armchair quarterbacking from anyone that hasn't. If you had told me you worked in welfare, or had been a liaison of the courts, I might value that viewpoint more- but then, I work with these people, and I know what their opinions are of these types of cases. Statistically the end is inevitable, it is only a matter of how many victims it will take to get there.
I have a former student on trial for murder- I've mentioned him before. He was breaking into the home of an elderly lady, and she caught him and his partner. My wonderful former student beat her to death with a hammer. He has a history of mental disorder, has prior arrests for minor crimes, and has spent some jail time. So tell me, does this make your case or my case?
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has spent some jail time.
Did he serve that jail time before he beat that lady?
If he did, it makes my case completely.
If you'll notice, I didn't say let him walk, or anything like that.
He needs to be put into a mental home where any progress or not can be monitored for a couple of years.
But of course, I will digress to your years of coaching and teaching.
Afterall, a lot of those people did so much for m... err wait... only a few of them really gave a toejam.
The difference between this kid, and the one you know... he hasn't killed anyone yet, and there's still a chance for rehabilitation.
There is NO chance for rehabilitation in jail. They become hardened criminals no matter what, even if they weren't going to before.
Jail is full of sex offenders, rapists, and murderers... you may as well just sentence that kid to death... it'll be better for him than jail.
-SW
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10Bears-
You have a particular knack for ignoring parts of a story. This "boy" didn't just get sentenced for beer, it was all that other criminal record, habitual offender business that did it.
SW-
And I defer to your expertise in dealing with kids because you are a computer tech.
How many kids have you dealt with that have come from mental institutes? I bet I can count twenty or so in my time. It doesn't work the way you think it does, I can tell you that. Fact is, I think you are thinking with your heart and not your brain.
Am I happy about kids getting sent to prison? No, despite 10B's somewhat ludicrous comments about Hortlund and me. I do however face the reality that people, even kids, have to be responsible for themselves and their actions.
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In my earlier years I spent a majority of them following someone from mental institute, to mental institute.
But hey... just because I've seen kids get fixed up with my own eyes, I guess it was just a fluke accident.
My heart... pffftttt... you think this judge didn't hand down that sentence with his heart?
There is no fixing someone up by sending someone off to jail.
It'd be far more humane to just sentence him to death.
-SW
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10Bears, he's not getting ten years for stealing a six pack of beer- he's getting 10 years because he's committed four violent felonies already. Two of those felonies occurred while he was incarcerated in the juvenile system (for what wasn't made clear) so maybe the juvenile justice system can't deal with this guy.
Please, don't make it sound like I'm in favor of throwing 17 year olds in prison because I'm not- unless it's as a last resort because the juvenile justice system can't handle him. What do you propose Florida do with kid? I agree this might not be the best way to deal with this kid, but I wonder if maybe it's the only way to deal with him?
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BTW-- is there anyway to mandate someone join the armed services?
I think sending this kid into the marines would fix his bellybutton right up in no time flat.
-SW
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Don't forget this fellow's condition was diagnosed, and he had medication prescribed- which mom claims he didn't take. Tell me, what program is going to solve that problem?
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Replacing the mom.
The kid might be diddlyed up... but he's by no means a lost cause... not yet.
He will be once he's sent to jail.
But his mom has just as much in her kid's diddly ups as the kid does.
If one goes to jail, both should. May teach some people how to properly raise their kids, or get their tubes tied/vesectomy.
Anyway, 10 years down the road... when he gets out of jail... don't be surprised when you see his name in the papers with a body count next to it.
-SW
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At least those bodies lived 10 more years.
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Wolfe, it probably would. But you know what? I really don't care what happens to this kid nearly as much as I'm concerned for his victims, both past and future. As far as "mental institutions" go, I didn't read where the kid entered a plea of insanity. All his Mom said was that he was medicated, but hey, we medicate our children in America because it's easier to deal with them that way so so what?
No, I don't think it's fair to sentance him to death- not yet anyway. Let's wait until he's in and out of prison several times for even more violent felonies and he kills a few people before we do that. Due process of law bud.
BTW- I busted my daughter (newly turned 17) lying about something trivial to me. In my house that's a mortal crime that can cost you driving or phone privelages. I informed her that by 17 your character should be well formed and that she didn't have the excuse of youth to use as an arguement any more- a liar is a liar. Her answer? "But Dad- I've only been 17 for a couple of weeks. Maybe I'm a late bloomer." I laughed as I took away her cell phone and car keys for a week or so.
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There you go Wulfe, the perfect solution.
I’ve been thinking about this for awhile now. You have half a million prisoners in there on drug charges. Most of these gangbangers are young, work out, and are being housed like vegetables, not learning anything about how to live on the outside. You can’t keep them there forever, they have to be released sometime.
The Dirty Dozen Clause.
Instead of wasting these guys lives here’s the deal, they go into the service for 5 years in a special battalion. This battalion gets the tough jobs.. patrolling the perimeter of Bagram airport, fighting in downtown Baghdad stuff like that. What do they get in return?.. Well for one their freedom, voting rights re-installed, former records purged, GI loans, a set of decent clothes to find a job... In short, their life back. What do we get in return?.. Our boys don’t have to die on the streets of Baghdad, prison space freed up for child rapists, murderers and so forth.
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"Atleast"?
You don't know Kieren... you don't know at all. You just assume. You assume he's going to have victims. You assume there's no other way but to turn him into a hardened criminal.
Those victims could "atleast" live a whole life time.
You put him in jail, his victims will ONLY live 10 more years.
It's that simple.
Elf- if you have a history of mental problems, you can be placed in a mental institution. Pleading insanity... yeah right... if your daughter got hit by a car, not mangled, just knocked to her ass.. maybe a broken leg, you can kill the driver and in court plead temporary insanity... might even get off.
Pleading it and being it are two different things.
I dunno what the best solution, but the hitleresque style of throwing people in jail who diddlyed up(even in the mildest of ways) because they were raised that way... well, if you believe in God you better start asking for his forgiveness now.
-SW
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You don't know Kieren... you don't know at all. You just assume. You assume he's going to have victims. You assume there's no other way but to turn him into a hardened criminal.
I assume them before, you assume them after. What's difference? I say once the tendency to commit crime is identified, you remove the ability of the person to commit the crime. Sorry that is offensive.
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Why don't we go ahead and put a bullet in the kid's head or give him the chair? You all have already conceded that he's going to kill someone eventually. Let's save that innocent life and end the eventually guilty one before that crime even takes place!
Seriously, Wulfie is the only one against the sentence to offer an alternative. I'd be interested in hearing the others opinions on how MY tax dollars are being spent on this. And the "put 'em in the army" idea doesn't count. It's not going to happen. So what punishment should the kid have gotten that the State of Florida can actually administer?
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Did anyone else think it was ironically funny that lieing is a "hanging offense" at Elfies house?
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I would, but it's probably not true, like most of what Elfie says.
Originally posted by midnight Target
Did anyone else think it was ironically funny that lieing is a "hanging offense" at Elfies house?
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I am not the same person (in a lot of ways) that I was 20 years ago. The person I was 20 years ago deserved a 10 year sentence and everyone would have been better off. fortunately for me I avoided getting caught... Not so god for everyone else.
So.... I gotta look at things a little different. Sure, it all turned out ok but I know some of my former cronies got their hands slapped when they got caught and they are still up to making everyones life that they touch misserable... including their own.
The kid that broke into my house is exactly the same so far as I can see. I got lucky tho and he came onto my property later to do one of his jailhouse "In your face" intimidations. He had it down pretty good. (one can only speculate why they learn in jail but not in school eh?). Being a weak old man I didn't really hurt em too bad. I was scared tho that he was underage and was relieved when my daughters friends all gleefully told me that he was 19 and that if he went to the cops they would laugh in his (somewhat battered) face.
given my personal experiance I might give him another chance 10 or 20 years down the road... certainly others will if he moves to where no one knows him and he works at it.. In the meantime tho.... I would insist that he at the very least be given housing in seawulfies or 10 bears neighborhood if we can't put him in a cage for those 10 or 20 years.
lazs
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I say once the tendency to commit crime is identified, you remove the ability of the person to commit the crime.
By that same token, I should be locked up behind bars then.
Care to re-evaluate your assessment?
What you don't seem to understand is that horseshit about "once a criminal, always a criminal" does NOT apply to a young kid.
And yes, this individual is a kid. You aren't an adult, even by the standards of law, until you are of the age of 18.
But this is just the typical American way of dealing with things that they don't have a fleeting clue about. "Oh, I'm a teacher, oh I'm a coach, oh I'm the big bad monster in this kids closet, based on my experiences, any kid that commits a crime will go on to be a mass murderer, so send 'em off to jail... so that just in case they won't turn out to be mass murderers, we'll ensure they will"
That's not what you mean? Oh, indeed it is and it's exactly what you've been saying the entire time.
Our prisons are overcrowded because of this. Problems aren't dealt with, they are just shoved into the corner to culminate.. and culminate.
When people learn that a kid who has a record is that way because adults diddlyed him over, then maybe you all will realize that it ain't the kid who deserves to be punished. Then maybe you'll take the time to devote to this kid to rehabilitate him. Then maybe you'll realize you can get a totally functional and working member of society out of a young kid who has a criminal record.
But hey, don't take my word for... afterall, I'm only a computer tech and you're a teacher. You have such a better understanding of how kids think and how to deal with 'em.
Which is exactly why you want them to go to jail, right? Your years of dealing with children has led you to one final conclusion: jail is the only solution for trouble makers.
Can't buy that... not all criminals go on to become mass murderers... lest I remind you of myself. There's still a chance of rehabilitation, so long as someone who cares, cares for this kid.
With jail... well, you effectively turned him into what you apparently wanted all along- a hardened criminal.
Call me a bleeding heart liberal, but since I see a lot of the "throw 'em in jail" coming from some religious folks, let me remind you: "What you do to the least of your brethren, you do to me."
-SW
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SW-
Don't turn this to religion... God forgives, but you are also accountable for what you do. The Bible is full of proof of that point.
I'm willing to bet that many of the people here who think sentencing a teen is too harsh are viewing it in the abstract, and don't have actual direct contact with such persons on a daily, personal basis. I'm also willing to bet not a single one has had a violent act committed against them or their loved ones by such a person. It's all cool to be filled with righteous indignation over a perceived injustice, but you'd be singing another song if it happened to you.
I do reach out to people. Occasionally I get bit, sometimes not. OTOH, I don't delude myself into thinking every single child/adult can be cured. Further, I see absolutely no reason to allow a criminal to continue on in a fashion that clearly shows disaster in the near future. This innocent little boy in question has a violent history and was breaking into a home for that beer. What happens if the homeowner catches him and puts up a fight? Can you honestly say you don't think there is a reasonable chance the innocent little boy wouldn't get violent? Can you honestly say you think it is better for that to happen than to send him to prison based on his previous history before he hurts an innocent homeowner while on one of his innocent nights out on the town?
If so, YOU need to check with God for forgiveness, as you are as complicit in the crime as the innocent little boy.
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Lazs, you think I haven't dealt with thugs?
Try growin' up in the ghetto, you let me know who you deal with, k?
-SW
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Hey, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Beretta, 1978.
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Si Muchacho... when you see his name in 10 years, like I said, don't be surprised... and look for no one else to blame but yourself and people like you.
Like I said, you assume I haven't dealt with people like these before. Or I haven't dealt with 'em everyday for 17 years...
But hey, you're a teacher... so I must bow before your extensive knowledge.
-SW
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sw... you need to get some years behind you to get some perspective. No offense meant.. just fact. This is not about where you grow up. I grew up in the bay area of california. they didn't have "ghettos" back then.... we created em and brought em with us wherever we went.
Things aren't so different today. the kid in the story and the one in mine were not products of a ghetto. In my case the kid had upper middle class parents who gave him all the essentials except... drugs. they couldn't or would't buy him as many drugs as he wanted/needed. This grave injustice is the root of his problem. He is more than willing to get 5 cents on the dollar on goods gained from stealing from everyone within his reach in order to correct this injustice.
sure... you don't need to put most first or second time offenders into some gladiator academy for 10 years but for a lot of these guys ten years in prison is ten years that they don't give everyone else grief. The myth that they come out as some kind of super criminal is just that. A myth.. they learn a few things but they remain stupid and lazy IF they remain criminals. they just go back mostly. Then they either get better or die. I don't particularly care which except in how it affects me.
lazs
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My thing is, I've seen far worse from kids like that... and they've been rehabilitated.
Some of 'em I knew... some of 'em were only acqauintances.
Of course, they went to a family member who instilled real values and a couple beat downs for a couple years... not some shoddy government joke of a rehab center.
If you meet those guys.. those "peer" counselers or whatever they call 'em now-a-days... for the most part, they are just a waste of a good desk. The ones that were too dumb to do anything but get a basic 2 year degree in sociology or psychology... those guys are supposed to help these kids that go to juvi or get sent somewhere else... but they don't care, and the kids feel that. And that's why most of 'em revert back to their old ways.
Seen it before... Anyway, time to leave work. Adios.
-SW
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I need to clarify something, SW... I am talking about violent crime here, not minor offenses. The person in question has a history of violence and now is caught breaking into homes. You put those two items together and someone is going to get hurt, eventually.
Glad you turned your life around, whatever you did. I myself don't have a spotless life, but violence definitely isn't part of it.
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Hey Kieran using your logic shouldn’t we be locking up Jena and Barbara Bush for the crimes they are going to commit?... And you know they will.. Look at the crime element of the family they come from. Great granddaddy Prescott got caught doing business with the nazis, grandpa was “out of the loop” selling arms to Osama Bin Laden then using the money to fund right wing death squads in El Salvador. Can’t let empty planes deadhead back, so he let Manual Noreiga and the Medadine cartel ship cocaine back to the states to be sold to African American communities.
I just hope you use the same compassion you show here next time the twins get busted. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime ain’t that right?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Did anyone else think it was ironically funny that lieing is a "hanging offense" at Elfies house?
Oh, Gee!! You didn't think I was SERIOUS about Superfly e-mailing me describing his day last Friday now, did you? Sheeesh MT, I thought you would see through that story by the third paragraph at least. Sorry I confused you bud.
OTOH I have no doubt Kanth actually believes I was trying to convince everyone Hi Tech uses a sedan chair to get to work. I imagine he read that, pondered it for several days and then came to the conclusion the story wasn't true.
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I've commited most of the crimes he was convicted of, when I was a teenager.
I guess my first murder is just around the corner.
You guys have no clue, what so ever, how this individual would have turned out with a different sentence.
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C'mon!
Some have admitted to being "like this kid", just not getting caught. I know I had a checkered past and grew out of it luckily. So did many others on this BBS, or so they say. Some even claim to be underage run-away's who did it on their own.
10 years is too long - period. Sure he needs to pay for his crimes. Sure he has problems. But you all know this sentence is rediculous! 2 years would have been appropriate. Even 1 in juvie and 1 in Prison, but 10??? Paleeeez!
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Yes, 10Bears, they should get the same treatment any other citizen gets.
Violent crime is the issue in this debate, not whether it was a sixpack the lil' tyke was stealing. You seem to keep forgetting that point...
And all you guys crying for leniency... just when does a teen begin to be responsible for his actions? Just when does it stop being mom's fault, the mental institution, school, teachers who don't care, etc. It's great some of you guys that were thugs in your neighborhood somehow escaped prosecution and are now doing fine... just hope your kids don't have to deal with someone like that, or your tune will change quickly. Lazs is more honest than the rest of you on that issue.
Just like everything else, the softy answer is "that's not the answer, so let's do nothing". Not one thing any of you softies have said is a viable alternative- not one. Instead, someone has to kill someone to get put away- leaving you softies scratching your heads wondering "How'd that happen?" and scrambling to find some environmental cause for the whole thing.
Point is, if you have a tendency to commit violent crime, I don't want you anywhere around me or mine. I don't care where you go, I don't want you around anyone that is innocent and just happens to be in your way. I don't care why you are the way you are. I don't care if your dad didn't love you. I don't want you hurting anyone innocent, period.
Let the enlightened pummel me some more now...
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Consequences, it’s all about consequences.
Too many kids don’t have appropriate consequences and learn that they can get away with murder.
The liberalist attitude that some parents take is usually something like:
“who else will take care my kids?” or something similar.
IMO the job of a parent is to teach their kids how to take care of themselves.
Teaching them that there are bad consequences for bad actions is responsible.
Teaching them that mommy or daddy will take care of them when they get in trouble isn’t.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Did anyone else think it was ironically funny that lieing is a "hanging offense" at Elfies house?
I wonder if this was before or after the bungie accident?
Maybe that was just playfull teasing to prove a point? Lieing with a purpose.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I wonder if this was before or after the bungie accident?
Maybe that was just playfull teasing to prove a point? Lieing with a purpose.
AKDejaVu
That is some of the most beautiful spin I have ever seen. You should be a campaign manager.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I've commited most of the crimes he was convicted of, when I was a teenager.
Really, Thrawn? You attacked police officers on multiple occasions while incarcerated? You attacked your mother to the point she called the police? You attacked fellow inmates? You escaped from police custody? You did all that? Gee- and MT says I'm a liar :)
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Not saying do nothing.
Not even saying be lenient.
But 10 years is just stupid.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Really, Thrawn? You attacked police officers on multiple occasions while incarcerated? You attacked your mother to the point she called the police? You attacked fellow inmates? You escaped from police custody? You did all that? Gee- and MT says I'm a liar :)
Yea, but you are still my favorite liar.... big hugs.
:o
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
I wonder if this was before or after the bungie accident?
Maybe that was just playfull teasing to prove a point? Lieing with a purpose.
AKDejaVu
DejaVu, didn't you squelch me several months ago? What happened? Did you lose your squelch file? Do me a favor and resquelch me or send back the Efluff'n Squelcher t-shirt I sent ya. Sheeesh.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Really, Thrawn? You attacked police officers on multiple occasions while incarcerated? You attacked your mother to the point she called the police? You attacked fellow inmates? You escaped from police custody? You did all that? Gee- and MT says I'm a liar :)
Sorry Deja, you're position of spin master has just been usurped.
Where does say multiple occasions? Where does it say he attacked his inmates?
"State Attorney David Porter said the teen had been convicted of battery on a detention facility staff member, aggravated assault and battery on school staff.
But Cheryl Bollenback told the judge before sentencing the convictions sounded worse than they actually were. She said the detention facility employee was dismissed after the fight with her son because he had a history of being physically violent."
"The aggravated assault charge came after her son threw a stick in her direction during a quarrel. "
"Her son received the school-related charge when a staff member tried to break up a fight between him and another student. "It's not like he punched a school employee," she said. "
I stand by what I said.
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Thrawn-
Sorry, doesn't add up. Why the convictions if they were no biggie?
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Was it the same judge? ;)
I'll concede that we don't have the full story here. The mother could be full of it, or not.
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Just like everything else, the softy answer is "that's not the answer, so let's do nothing". Not one thing any of you softies have said is a viable alternative- not one. Instead, someone has to kill someone to get put away- leaving you softies scratching your heads wondering "How'd that happen?" and scrambling to find some environmental cause for the whole thing.
Yeah right, I offered plenty of viable alternatives... it's just hard for your Nazi ideals to swallow. See, I can play the name game too. Heil Kieren! Overcrowd our prisons, and turn any potential lives that could be helped into a waste! Sieg Heil!
I so could go into the whole religious ideals and stuff... but I won't... because then you'll just whine about me doing it, while it's fine for you to assault my ideals. Irony. Sweet, sweet irony.
-SW
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Well, We can play the name game too! Liar Liar Pants On Fire! I know you are but what am I? COMMUNIST!!!!! Rat Fink! (when's the last time ya heard that one?) You...you BISHOP! You lousy stinkin...(narrator's voice-over as I continue my rant)...And so ends another glorious O'Club thread with everybody equally insulted, equally pissed off and equally looking for blood...as we all retire to the MA to shoot each other down- a much more civil treatment than we're subject to here....
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From where i sit, what i've seen, what I've done myself and what my heart and my gut tell me..
the kids a lost cause.
why?
because he's declared war on civilized society. The core of our civilization is respect for the rights of others. this miserable lil bozo is old enuff and smart enuff to know how to prey on the weak, demonstrated a propensity for violence in the commision of crime and has rendered the system incompetent to deal with him rationally.. so the system's gonna stick him in the box with all the other violent social defectives that refuse to operate within the rational boundries of our society.
bame whoever you wish.. does not change the reality of the situation... the lil creep refused to accomodate the rights of others in the pursuit of his happiness and thus, having gerviously assaulted others, invaded their homes, flaunted and even assaulted the authority of representatives of the law, he went on to continue to violate the rights and property of others. Further, having refused medical treatment and parental succor.. even physically assaulting his parent... he obviously needs to be removed from society..
Yes.. it's awful. What a shame. Brings tears to yer eyes. Here's a challenge for you guys that think he can be saved.. go save him. C'mon.. bring this poor misunderstood boy into your home and fix him with kindness.
Some of you bleeding heart sentimental types seem freakin real quick to condemn the 'system', quick to condemn the people who face this same miserable tragedy every day and find, just like that judge, that the situation is NOT correctable by means allowing the kid access to society,. In in the face of evidence that the kid will take any opportunity to do further damage to himself and the others around him even inside the closed society of a juvinile detention facility the judge faced hobsons choice...
Some one please point out a rational placement for this kid besides the big house... and I'll tear it apart. Outside of a parent present that can and will kick his bellybutton at the drop of a hat, there will be no controlling him. So he can't go back to 'family'.
No 'mental' institution would be willing to allow somebody with a history of violence to mix with other paitients.. helpless paitents.
No foster home could accept or control a kid that refuses to accept direction or authority.
Nope.. time for this kid to learn that his actions have consequences. And Bubba will teach him the error of his ways. And yes, prison is the only place i can think of that is equipped to handle violent habitual criminals.
In eight years, when he steps out he'll have a new set of choices. In eight years the system might be better equipped to deal with his brand of defect. In eight years, bubba may have killed him.
Who knows.. in eight years, maybe he will have taught the Caliphs horse to sing.
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SW-
You said get him away from his mother. Where? What place will that be? Tell me, what saved you?
And that's "Mr. Kieren" to you. ;)
Edit: Go for the religion, see if I care. I can counter your scripture with more scripture, and I'm used to the "your religion is responsible" comments by now...
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Elf-
Once again, my personna must sound angrier than I am. I am confused perhaps, and I don't understand how people have to let things go so far before they are willing to make a person accountable, but angry? Definitely not.
I am resolute in my belief that it is silly to let someone continue on a path that will make innocents suffer. Others don't feel that way because there is a chance the person may be ok in the end- the victims be damned.
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How about lock him up in solitary with a computer and a few good educational programs on things he'll need to get along in the real world (High School GED stuff) and a bunch of good philosophical reading (the "classics" so to speak).
Like all computer based training he'd progress at his own pace. Set the course up to last at least 2 years if he hustled. Then, when he finished the course, he goes before a "board" that examines him to see if he actually learned the material. If he gets a "C" overall, they let him walk. If not, back for more study.
Then he can be out in 2 years and he'll actually have been exposed to thoughts about how human society is supposed to work, etc.
Rather than just warehousing him to no purpose?
Of course... if he doesn't want to study he does the whole 10 years. In solitary though, he'd probably study just for something to do.
There, that's as kind as I get most likely.
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Maybe Canada can take in our "troubled, miss-understood youth" as a last resort before sending them to prison. Thrawn, you game?
All the kids/ gangsters that rob people, car jack, break into houses, beat up people, and have multiple felony convictions..... they are just miss-understood.
All they need is a Liberal to adopt them and take them under their wing.
Im sure a lot of Liberals are willing to have droves of these kids move into their communities as a last resort before they go to jail. Think of all the nice kids you could rehabilitate. If a kid accidently breaks into one of your houses, you could give him a big hug and perhapse give him a stearn warning about his behavior.
Please, make sure you let them know that they can never be held responsible for their actions, since they are not 18 yet.
After 10 years Im sure you will have made model citizens out of most of them.
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Hey yo Kieran Hangtime
(http://www.ilhawaii.net/~bear1/art/cup-of.jpg)
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Your debating skills leave a bit to be desired, as does your temper. ;)
Now go hug a criminal.
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Kieran (sorry, spelt it wrong), what saved me? Well, after a couple run-ins with the law, I figured out and was taught how to avoid running in with them.
Not to say I've changed much since I was caught... but I've changed my habits so that I can't be caught..
Except for certain particulars of my past behavior... which I have completely dropped.
Why? Probably just because I got older and realized bad toejam will happen if I kept that up.
I don't think the problem is only this kid, but in how he was raised.. which is why I think there's a chance to help him out.
I certainly do not believe letting him slide will do anything for him. I do believe, however, throwing him into "big-man" prison will be detrimental to any chance of rehab he has.
Is it possible? Yes. With most government funded programs? Possibly, but if he runs into that one counselor(sp?). The one who is basically that kid, 20,30,40 years from now. The one who was heading for deep toejam, but somehow he got changed around and is now teaching kids just like how he was how not to get that way... then probably, he probably does have a chance of getting rehabed.
I don't believe all kids that are like him (in terms of repeat offenders) in the sense that maybe there's a chance. But in the case of this kid, I dunno.. it's just the things he's been charged with don't seem as bad as other instances I know of where those kids were rehabed.
Then again, I dunno. Nothing I type here on this UBB has any effect on this kid's going to prison or not. I only wanted to challenge your position, maybe inject some thought... "Maybe this kid isn't like the ones I dealt with that were in my neighborhood... maybe there is a chance."
I dunno... I just don't like jail being used as the be-all end-all for people who may not be as bad as those that are already incarcerated, but because they have a record... then screw 'em. Afterall, I CAN remember back to when I was his age... and doing stupid toejam like he's doing, man that was a rush... but like I said, I dunno.
I can counter your scripture with more scripture, and I'm used to the "your religion is responsible" comments by now...
That's not what I meant at all. Well, yeah, I was going to use scripture... but only as a means to open your eyes. Certain things in the Bible, atleast for me, always remind me of things. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "Turn the other cheek" <-- things like that, they serve as a second guess. "Well, if I were a dumb bellybutton teen... what would I want?" Yeah, a lot of guys I knew thought they were hard bellybutton thugs. They wouldn't mind going to prison... they could take it... hell, it seemed like a challenge.
but, later on, they figure out how stupid they were for thinking that.
That's all I'm saying.. maybe this kid needs a real reality check. His mom ain't doing it for him. I wonder if this kid was ever told to get a job? The cops ain't doing it. Hell, it ain't even their job. The Juvi detention center won't do it... rarely ever does...
I don't think this kid is a complete lost cause. And I had no intentions of insulting your religion, but to use at a means to maybe open up your eyes.. that crossed my mind. :)
Anyway, that's all I have to say.. if it makes ya feel any better, shoot my chute... it'll only take a bullet or two.. since it's a "softie"! ;)
-SW
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And I have no ill feelings toward you, FWIW. I hope you understand my beef is with a system that allows people to continue to commit crimes until they commit the big one. I only wish it didn't take so many people suffering for something to finally be done.
Understand I never disagreed with you about what caused him to be the way he is. What I want you to understand is that I know that not every child is lost- but by the same token, not every one will be saved. There finally comes a point of no-return where the most drastic measure has to happen.
Where I was coming from on the Bible is this; God forgives you, but that doesn't remove your accountability for what you do in the earthly sense. Even Jeffrey Dahmer could have been forgiven, yet would be rightfully made to pay here on earth for his crimes. Yes, I am to turn the other cheek, but when it comes to my family I am only human. It would be different if it was just me, but it isn't anymore. It's a whole different game when it comes to your own kids and their protection. And, I am not so sure God would have me put my family at risk for the sake of one person; maybe, but I don't see it.
If you have the experiences I'm guessing you've had, you know the state of mental care leaves much to be desired, and therefore cannot be relied upon to be the safety net for society. Somewhere, somehow, the individual either is able to make a choice (as you did), or cannot. Once it is clear society cannot function with the choice a person makes (or is unable to make), there is little to do but to remove the possibility of harm to innocents. Nothing to celebrate, but inevitible. In the case of the hammer killer I mentioned, the boy had been identified before he got to me in 5th grade, and his tendencies were well documented. Needless to say, his name and picture in the paper came as no shock.
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10 Bears.. I luv u man. ;)
C'mere, lemme give yah a wet willie...:)
(http://www.angelfire.com/wy/divil/images/goof_anm.gif)
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i used to live in a town where there was once a shooting over a can of worms, literally. the guy with the gun got off with no charges. later that same month he used the same gun to hold up a post office. it doesn't take a person with a college degree to figure out that a post office doesn't have much money. i don't know what happened to the guy after that.
also, when you consider that a LOT of the medication passed out to kids these days is because of "misdiagnoses" (e.g. the parents don't have time to deal with the kids, so put them on ritalin), it makes you wonder who's really to blame. i think that the mother should be held accountable for the kids wrongdoings. however, i think someone stated earlier that the kid only had these "fits" when he didn't take his medication. therefore, it's the kid's fault for not taking his medication and knowing what the consequences of those actions might lead to. he's also old enough to know that what he did was wrong. he's also too young to drink.
it's hard to say whether or not the kid had any moral judement, since the mother obviously had little to do with him...therefore she couldn't have taught him what's right and what's wrong. this supports my reasoning that she should be punished as well.
however, humans are born with a natural sense of right and wrong, so the kid must have had some semblance of what he was doing.
do i think that 10 years is too much? no...because i had to live with a town-full of these people while i was growing up. the kid was arrogant about his crime, and that attitude is the reason why i think that 10 years is a fair sentence. besides, if we as a community just let kids get away with things because they're minors, what happens to the community when these kids grow up, have children, and then let THEM do whatever THEY want? if this kid's mother was this bad of a parent, think about what kind of parent this kid's going to be if he has children.
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I understand and agree with you Kieran. I just don't agree that this kid is lost, yet. Won't know now, maybe prison turns him around... hopefully.
Either way, we'll just end up disagreeing on this one unless we get a lot more facts. Then who knows, I may have been wrong all along.
As for this...Yes, I am to turn the other cheek, but when it comes to my family I am only human. It would be different if it was just me, but it isn't anymore. It's a whole different game when it comes to your own kids and their protection. And, I am not so sure God would have me put my family at risk for the sake of one person; maybe, but I don't see it.
That's not what I mean.... I meant that I used those particular quotes, and the one I mentioned earlier before about "what you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me", as good life advice.
I've read a good amount of the Bible, and while I don't see it as a religious symbol (being non-religious), I think there's a good amount of knowledge and wisdom there for living a good life.
Anyhow... as for your family... Can't say I disagree with ya there.
Hangtime, use something other than Angelfire next time. You can upload images straight to the BBS... look below where you type next time you do a message..
-SW
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I haven't read all the posts here and don't intend to do so. I'm telling you this so you know I am not aiming any comments at any individual on the thread.
First off as to the fairness of the sentence. I agree with it. There was more than one felony count listed there in the last arrest that would warrant some serious time. The fact that the tard had ONLY stolen some beer is immaterial, He committed a felony just to steal beer. That is HIS problem not the societies or prosecutions. It was his choice to commit the burglary, no matter what he took. Would it make it any differant if he took a jewelry box that was placed in the garage? No. Why? Becuase it is still a burglary no matter WHAT he took.
The sentence is also based on past dealings and arrests. Why is that? Because a presentence report was given to the judge so the judge has a better grasp of the type of person he is sentencing. In this case the past arrests and severity of the crimes tell quite a bit about the state of mind and type of person the convict is. This is as much of a mitigating circumstance as the defense lays out to try and get their client a soft sentence. None of this is likely to be admisabble in court during thre guilt phase, it is only for sentencing after the conviction. This kid has "skated" in the past but didn't make it this time.
In my personal experiance I have run into kids like this. They know the system VERY well and will actually tell the arresting officer to his / her face that nothing will happen to them since they are a juvinile. I have had this very thing happen on more than one occasion. I have also seen family members tell a little snot that they have to watch out as their 18th Bday is comming and they will lose the "bloom of youthful innocence" and have to face adult charges. Yeah that's my sarcasm there but it still was the same idea. I was also told by one little snot that he was going to "go straight" the very next week as his 18th bday was that same week. The system is played quite frequently by a youthful offender.
No matter what the age of the offender the act has the same consequences for the victim.
As to the idea of reform in jail.... That's another topic for another thread.
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ok... maybe things are different these days or maybe this kid is just the most unlucky at getting caught of anyone in history but... Back in the day.....
the smarter ones of us would get caught about 1 in every 100 crimes and the dumb ones about one in ten or twenty. we would get off on some kind of loophole about half the time even if caught.
prison is just like anywhere else... you make of it what you want. you can learn in prison... you can learn to be a slightly better but no less lazy criminal or you can learn engineering. Both are available.. you can spend 8 hours a day bodybuilding or you can study something. Most of us would get something out of it other than some bulk.
I think that prisons should have learning programs and that education should be part of the parole process. "good time" is not available without so many educational "units".
what someone does with all this is, of course, up to him. I have no problem sending back or executing a repeat offender. It's one hell of a lot better for us and a mercy for him. Maybe he will do better in the next life.
lazs
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Funny how it seems like its all or nothing in most of these discussions.
I think the kid needs to pay. I also think 10 years is way too much. A 16 year old sent to adult prison for 10 years in this case is a hateful miscarriage of justice. This doesn't mean that I feel sorry for the little salamander, or that I want to hug him until he sees the light... BS, I just think this judge went too far. Two years would have been plenty, 5 would have been harsh, 10 is stupid.
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Since this is turning into a general debate about how to handle young criminals, it might be best to see it from the grander point of view.
The purpose of punishment s two fold: one is a sense of justice, and the other purpose is for the greater good of society.
For me, what is effective in the latter regard is as important as the punishment bit.
The US got overcrowded prisons and a crime rate that is relative high. The general approach here is to sentence people to jail rather than different forms for rehabilitation.
If rehabilitation proves to save society money and lower crime rate, I'll go for it even if it means some twirp only gets two years where he might have gotten four.
Great efforts are being made here to rehabilitate criminals - sometimes it's very obvious that the effort is wasted. Still, the program has had some success. Some kids simply need a helping hand to get out of the path they've started on - for others it's too late.
But it'd be downright stupid NOT to reach out to the ones you can touch.
Of course this has to be balanced with the risk the dude in question is posing to society - if it's likely that innocents will risk dying because rehabilitation is choosen, obviously this shouldn't be tried.
10 years for that toejame. Hell, I'd be in prison for life if those were the standards here.
And dinnae I just turn out super ok? Pink leather studded g-string, fascination for fascist hardware....couldn't be more normal.
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nope
as pointed out in the above posts and the article, this punk arse is headed for a life a crime
skip the countless arrests/court time and lock him up for good now
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How many times has George W. Bush been arrested? Is it 3?
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Sentencing teens like this is rather harsh.
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Montezuma-
How many felony convictions? How many assaults?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Maybe Canada can take in our "troubled, miss-understood youth" as a last resort before sending them to prison. Thrawn, you game?
Sure I'm game. I called Jean earlier and he said, "Okay, but only if dey stop wid de acid rain." What does George say?
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How many times has George W. Bush been arrested? Is it 3?
Hey Monte, well we know of one DUI the one that wasn’t released to the public until four days before the election. Then there might have been another one a few years earlier when he had brother Melvin in the car.. He knocked the trash cans at the family home all the way to Plaino and had a big fight with his dad. This is the conviction where they think he got a new drivers license number. Then there’s a possible third arrest involving cocaine but that got successfully covered up.
Of course you or I would have been thrown into the stockade had we been AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard for a year. President Bush has an honorable discarge but.... someone misplaced the documentation.
His Vice President, Dick Cheney, has 1 DUI conviction in the mid 60’s. So both the President and Vice President have police records.
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Hells bells.. I say we give the lil retard 10 years!
..and his pal cheney oughta get 5 just because those of us that remember don't want annuther dick in the whitehouse.
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Bush’s National Guard Timeline (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/dailynews/bush_guard000624.html)
Oct. 1, 1973: Receives honorable discharge
Do they give those to members while they are AWOL?
Funny that a thread that started out with a kid getting harsh sentence is now a Bush thread.
Take a deep breath... it's only two years or so till ya get to try again.
All this gettin' riled up will do nothing to change anything until then. Get out there and work for the candidate of your choice. Channel your discontent into something positive.
See if ya can find us someone other than Mrs. Clinton or Gore this time. ;)
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Don't allow children the same rights as adults, but punish them as adults .
Maybe when they're grown up they will resent youth more than this generation .
Punk teenagers .
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Toad are you sure this is the link you want us to go to to exonerate your boy? Oh oh...Muhahahahah oh oh lard have mercy!!!
“The official records were either lost or misplaced or not filled out correctly or not deposited. We are not sure,” Bartlett said. [/i]
Blahahahahh cough... Bhlahahahahah their not sure
“I can’t remember what I did, but I wasn’t flying because they didn’t have the same airplanes. I fulfilled my obligations,” he said.[/i]
He can’t remember what he did!!!! whoa! whao! whoa! OH LARD OH LARD MUHAHAHAH
Oct. 1, 1973: Receives honorable discharge
Great! that’s swell! now please un-loose and un-misplace the certificate of discharge so you don’t have people think you’ve been AWOL for a friggin year...
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You sure you want someone who recklessly endanger others in charge of yer country?
Hell, if he doesn't mind risking the lives of others because he's drunk and wanna drive, who knows what he'll be up to? :)
Seriously, DUI is far worse than stealing some beer. DUI kills loads of people, and IMHO should be sentenced like 2nd degree murder.
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So it is your position that they give out an Honorable Dishcharge to a person that is AWOL?
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If the charge was "successfully covered up"... then how the hell do you know it ever existed. It is like your pedophile charge that was sealed. We should let it go.
lazs
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For the LAST TIME- four felony convictions = 10 years in prison. And that, friends, is how it SHOULD be. The fact that so many of you "violent felons" managed to escape justice and turn your lives around has nothing to do with it. He was caught- AGAIN, he was convicted- AGAIN, and this time he was sentanced in accordinance with what a repeat violent felon deserves.
The attempts by so many of you to portray this kid as simply being "misspent youth" is laughable. If one more of you says "10 years is too much time for stealing beer" without recognizing the fact that he's a repeat, violent felon I'll friggin scream.
Now about GWB and the Air National Guard- National Guard units were basically closed to the "common" potential draftee and were used as a heaven for the sons of the rich and powerful to avoid service in Viet Nam. Likewise college deferments were widely used to avoid the draft, but how many of you realise that enrolling in a free community college wouldn't exempt you from the draft? You had to be enrolled in a 4 year college to get a deferment, and do you know what most colleges did between 1965 and 1971? That's right- They increased their tuitions as the numbers of kids seeking enrollment went up. That way those kids of rich parents didn't have to serve and those of us from a more modest background served in Viet Nam. That's a fact, guys.
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That's right- They increased their tuitions as the numbers of kids seeking enrollment went up. That way those kids of rich parents didn't have to serve and those of us from a more modest background served in Viet Nam. That's a fact, guys.
Actually, I think that's free market in action, not some overt plan by "the Man". ;)
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The end result was the same Kieran.
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I don't disagree; but written as it was, it hinted at a government plan to protect the wealthy white kids and exploit the poor kids of all colors. That just isn't true.
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So what about us that "hid" in college by taking a 4 year ROTC program and being commissioned upon graduation?
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Not the point at all Toad.
Those that served deserve our respect and admiration. However, the deferment system had the net effect of sending the poor, disenfranchised and minority soldier to Vietnam in much greater numbers than those lucky enough to afford a 4 year college.
Or a cushy trip to an F102 wing.
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Kieran, I agree that was the free market in action- in fact it's similar to the "free market" that existed during the Civil War where draftees could hire a surrogate to do their military service for them. No, no covert plan to protect rich kids- but that was basically the effect it had. I'm not whining about it, but my options for college was limited to a two year junior college as much for poor grades in HS as for economics, and they didn't issue school deferments for junior college students. BTW, I said nothing about the racial mix of Viet Nam soldiers, but now that you mention it yeah, there WERE a lot of people of color there.
Toad, the officers in Viet Nam were dedicated rather they had used ROTC to avoid being drafted as an enlisted man or not. I never once heard an officer squeak about the fates that caused him to be there ever. I have the utmost respect for anyone who completes an ROTC program and becomes a commissioned officer in the service; however, my respect turns to envy when that newly-commissioned officer is then put through flight school and gets to fly jets for a few years.
I stand by my statements- National Guard slots were highly coveted because they kept you out of the Viet Nam war. School deferments were only issued for four year institutions. Likewise joining a police force kept you out of the Viet Nam war. Now I wonder how long it'll be before someone claims I said all cops are draft dodging cowards?
Hmmm...these bbs things run in circles. After a few laps you get to know the track pretty well....
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I didn't know that about the police force deferment.
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MT, that's from my memory. I think it included fire departments too but I'm not sure.
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Quite a few of my fellow officers were Nam vets. Funny, they didn't seem to have a deferment. Some even had families at the time they were called. Few of them were in the Guard and Reserves. I was in the minority when I was a cop.
I also went to ROTC in college. I certainly didn't come from a middle class financial background. My Dad died when I was 7. I put myself through college by working. My mother lived on and raised me on social security and VA benefits from my Dad. My college education cost my mother $50.00 as she bought my books one semester.
Yeah my draft number was 13 or 14. I still served 24 years, retired as a LTC up for promotion. I guess that makes me a non white draft dodger since I am of mexican american heritage according to elfy. Where is that rich priveledged stuff I was supposed to have elfy???
I certainly had no clue about the "market economy" aspect of military service. It was something we did, our fathers did and their fathers before them. Most of my family before my generation and a significant portion after served. We lived here, enjoyed what we could work for and paid it back by serving. We didn't have any rich inheritance or political "pull" to get what we wanted. We just worked for it. Novel concept huh.
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So it is your position that they give out an Honorable Dishcharge to a person that is AWOL?
No Toad, I hold the position that if you go AWOL they throw you in Leavenworth. But, if your name is Bush and CIA chief and congressman father has his friends falling all over themselves to do him a favor, than anything is possible. The brass can’t forge a certificate of discharge.. that’s going too far but they can lie and say “I believe he was honorability discharged”.
Glad Monte brought up the George Bush connection. The reason it relates to this thread is to show contrast between the entitled and the un-entitled-- most defiantly a double standard.
This kids mom didn’t have a $200,000 house she could put up for collateral, she didn’t have the $10,000 retainer most lawyers ask for. The sleepy public defender couldn’t defend his way out of a wet paper bag. He was expedient as possible this kid got no justice.
But look at the big picture here, how do we view ourselves as a sociality. Are we civilized? A way to view a civil sociality is how we treat our prisoners. We don’t lock up children in an adult prison for 10 years, we don’t execute mentally retarded prisoners. If we do we lower ourselves to the level of the Taliban or Saudi Arabia.
Back to the Bush question Toad and Kieran: The powers that be.... the one’s who knew Bush had a DUI for months but elected not to tell us until 4 days before the election, claim George Bush was discharged honorably. If that were the case, where is the certificate of discharge?
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lol....what a hijack.
so he's president....DEAL WITH IT. in the last election it was the lesser of two evils, anyways. you would be agruing some other equally moot point if Gore won the election.
back to the kid and the jail sentence. if this was his first offense i would say that the ruling was a bit harsh. however, this is NOT his first offense. on that account, it doesn't matter what the severity of his actions were, the fact that he continued a life of crime (however minor) speaks for himself. if you look at in the right light, the kid was given just enough rope to hang himself with.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Quite a few of my fellow officers were Nam vets. Funny, they didn't seem to have a deferment. Some even had families at the time they were called. Few of them were in the Guard and Reserves. I was in the minority when I was a cop.
I also went to ROTC in college. I certainly didn't come from a middle class financial background. My Dad died when I was 7. I put myself through college by working. My mother lived on and raised me on social security and VA benefits from my Dad. My college education cost my mother $50.00 as she bought my books one semester.
Yeah my draft number was 13 or 14. I still served 24 years, retired as a LTC up for promotion. I guess that makes me a non white draft dodger since I am of mexican american heritage according to elfy. Where is that rich priveledged stuff I was supposed to have elfy???
I certainly had no clue about the "market economy" aspect of military service. It was something we did, our fathers did and their fathers before them. Most of my family before my generation and a significant portion after served. We lived here, enjoyed what we could work for and paid it back by serving. We didn't have any rich inheritance or political "pull" to get what we wanted. We just worked for it. Novel concept huh.
(Sigh) Like I said, I wondered how long it would be before someone put words in my mouth and made the inference I somehow am putting down police officers. I'm just surprised it's you though, Mav. All I did was present several facts concerning what were and were not deferments during the Viet Nam War. If anybody wishes to twist what I said to make it appear I'm condemning the military, police and federal government then whatever, I guess you read a different language than I'm writing.
I was trying to add my two cents' worth about National Guard slots and draft deferments. At no time did I state GWB was guilty of desertion or using his fathers' influence to land a National Guard spot. At no time did I state police offers got into police work because it kept them out of Viet Nam. At no time did I say... You know, it doesn't matter what I say, does it? Hell, I'll make it easy. Think whatever the hell you want. I'm tired of my statements being twisted around by those of you who obviously have a personal axe to grind with me. And I damn sure won't humiliate myself by posting my military career and my own experiences in Viet Nam. It's not what defines me as a person, it's not germane to the conversation and it sure as hell is nobody's business who posts here. I'm so out of this thread.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Now about GWB and the Air National Guard- National Guard units were basically closed to the "common" potential draftee and were used as a heaven for the sons of the rich and powerful to avoid service in Viet Nam. ----- That's a fact, guys.
My brother served in the Air National Guard in '69, 70, 71...
My father was a LA Fireman. I had no idea dad made so much money as a municipal employee.
From ABC News Website"The campaign was looking for payroll records that would show Bush reported for duty with the Guard in Montgomery, Ala., — a temporary assignment adjustment away from the Texas National Guard to accommodate Bush while he was working on the unsuccessful Senate campaign of former Postmaster General Winton Blount.
The new records were mostly duplicates of documents obtained by the campaign from the Texas National Guard headquarters in Austin about 18 months ago.
“The official records were either lost or misplaced or not filled out correctly or not deposited. We are not sure,” Bartlett said.
His orders, dated Sept. 15, 1972, said: “Lieutenant Bush should report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, DCO, to perform equivalent training.”
"To my knowlege, he never showed up,” Turnipseed said last month.
Roberto Trinidad, freedom of information officer for the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, said the military does not retain the sort of records Bush campaign officials are seeking.
“His payroll records are not here,” Trinidad said.
The military saves only the most important personnel records for 50 years. Less important documents, including check stubs, are destroyed.
I would hate to be assigned as a prosecutor at this court martial. No evidence against Bush except hazy recollections, and a lack of paperwork.
Getting back to the original thread, only a few months of jail time, and a trip to Singapore for a caning.
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10Bears, just answer the question- how many convictions for violence did Bush have?
Can you say "irony"? You should be able to, if you are going to complain about the way politicians live above the law. You know what I mean. Then again, you can't seem to see past the surface of anything.
I gotta hand it to Toad, Easymo, and Lazs; all three have well-formed opinions that are articulated well in their distinct styles. They aren't just cutting and pasting the rhetoric of the extreme side of one party or another. Agree or disagree, their thoughts are their own.
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Originally posted by Kieran
I gotta hand it to Toad, Easymo, and Lazs; all three have well-formed opinions that are articulated well in their distinct styles. They aren't just cutting and pasting the rhetoric of the extreme side of one party or another. Agree or disagree, their thoughts are their own.
I assume you are referring to the hijacking of this thread, and not the entire one...
because my thoughts sure were my own in this thread.
-SW
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Not talking about you at all, SW. Simmadownnah... though of course you were speaking from the heart and experience. S!
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Just wondering was all, wasn't hot under the collar, just curious.
Thanks for the correction. S!
-SW
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Toad are you sure this is the link you want us to go to to exonerate your boy?
One, he's not "my boy". I did think he was a far better choice than Gore (although, IMO, that really isn't saying much.) I still think that.
Second, the truth doesn't bother me. If they actually find something on Bush.. like say for giving false testimony in a civil sexual harassment lawsuit or something... I'd be among the first to point it out and point out what a low-life he was. Heck, I'd even be really down on him for just redefining "is" on television as he addressed the nation. :D
Third, I'm fairly well versed in the "Bush/Guard" debate. I think either Nash or Thrawn and I hashed it over pretty well. I did a lot of research back then on it.
Did he miss a lot of "drill"? Apparently. Did he go AWOL? Do a websearch on the UCMJ Article 86 - Absence without leave (AWOL).
You ever SEE or HEAR of any paperwork charging him with a violation of Article 86 of the UCMJ?
I doubt you have, because I've looked and looked and there's no record of him being brought up on AWOL charges. So any Commander(s) that "missed" him at drill weekend never did a d*mn thing about it apparently.
So, there is a record of an Honorable Discharge. If there's a record of it, it has to be a government record. If you want a copy you can probably get it under the Freedom of Information act.
But there's NO record of a Court Martial under Article 86... so there's apparently no "AWOL" either. Doesn't seem to be a true charge at all.
But I know it sounds cool for you to say it 10Bears, so keep right on. It fits your style perfectly.
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Same here. The minute a charge sticks, I'm with you on riding him outta town on a rail. As far as jumping up over accusations of abuse of power in his current tenure... I haven't seen anything he's done yet that can't wait until the next election cycle.