Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: 28sweep on August 29, 2002, 12:14:04 PM
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I like all of the F4u's and hear a lot about using Scissors to survive in them. So the exact inputs to do a scissors are as follows:
1) Roll-Using ailerons and rudder.
2) When wings are perpendicular to ground-Yank.
3) Stop Yanking (on stick).
4) Roll opposite using same and yank again
When doing this-drop flaps and use throttle to gain proper angle for snap. Is this correct?
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The key to it is timing - try to turn in one direcion just as the guy behind you has commited to turning in the other. Turn only hard enough to gain an advantage - against a good turnfighter, you`ll be out of energy and options in no time, and he`ll nail you...
Check out help pages, the virtual training academy comes to mind.
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well kinda.... thats a strictly horizontal scissors...
There are other variations including the vertical which can resemble barrel rolls...
SKurj
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http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/ACM-scissors.html
The link above has a pretty good display of scissors and also includes a text explanation and some tips.
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SKurj is right.
Scissors is a simple form when in horizontal, but any "situation where the paths of the two planes going in the same direction cross each other" can be considered "scissors". This means scissors can be used in all sorts of directions - while going forward, while turning, while diving, while zoom climbing... etc etc.
The ultimate form of the scissors is the "Rolling Scissors" - the move Skurj described.
Two planes enter a move simular to the barrel roll, but the two planes are about "half tempo" different in flight path and thus, they go in a move resembling a double helix.. when observing the rolling scissors with the film viewer, you'll notice the trails look like a DNA code. The two planes enter a double helix flight path, each trying to overshoot the other, each rolling in a wide arc to move away from the other's gun solution.
There is no way this can be described with just words, so I'll try and find a good film or a pic for you.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Two planes enter a move simular to the barrel roll, but the two planes are about "half tempo" different in flight path and thus, they go in a move resembling a double helix.. when observing the rolling scissors with the film viewer, you'll notice the trails look like a DNA code. The two planes enter a double helix flight path, each trying to overshoot the other, each rolling in a wide arc to move away from the other's gun solution.
There is no way this can be described with just words, so I'll try and find a good film or a pic for you.
I think that was the BEST WAY to describe rolling scissors I've ever heard! :D
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The whole purpose of using scissors is to force an overshoot, as mentioned they can be horizontal,vertical or mixed. Realistically you only use scissors against an enemy with superior E. Otherwise your better of trying to extend...jinking as needed of course.
One of the text book defenses to an impending overshoot is to roll AWAY 90 degrees and pull up...so from your hard break left he would roll to the right...bringing his wings 90 out of plane and go up....this sets up a classic rolling scissors if rolls the nose back down to reengage and you respond in the oblique vertical to deny his shot.
The real goal of a scissor is to force the faster plane in front of you
for some kind of a shot. The biggest mistake is usually "scissoring" like mad in front of a plane that has slowed it's overtake rate enough to afford a tracking solution. You end up flying back and forth letting the con hammer you to pieces. Once the E state has become more even you'll need to move to a different tactic if your fighting a better turning plane...you can still force an overshoot....sometimes.
In a hog a nose low zero throttle turn with gear down and full flaps can force a nice overshoot quickly...assuming you live thru it.
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Your right on the money humble. Thanks
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The most important point of flying scissors and TheBug's link is the number 3. Always watch the guy behind you. Try to manage that his bank angle and yours never match each other, so you're on a good way for a succesfull scissor. Also keep an eye on the direction where his nose is pointing (line of fire) and try not to cross it. Since you naturally cross the line of fire of your pursuing aircraft in a scissor after the book you give the following guy a few good chances for snap shots. So don't yank exactly perpendicular to the ground, try to pass the line of fire always a bit below or above by over or underrolling a bit so you fly a bit upwards or downwards too. If you see the chasing aircraft isn't trying to follow just don't yank back blind, keep on the turn untill he gets nervous and really follows you. If you see your pursuer pulling up and flying a wide roll (barell roll) to counteract your scissors you may have to consider to shift plans. In those cases you can try a rolled scissor by flying barrell rolls too also trying to keep your bank angle as far away as possible from the following aircraft.
Especially in the Hog you should take use of the high speed characteristics. The roll performance maintains good at quite high speeds while many planes lose alot of their roll performance at those speeds. So if you have enough alt try to make a dive of about 300 to 400 mph and rolling and just pulling a little bit to maintain a good angle to force your following plane to roll arround in order to get a shot on you while you maintain the high speed. If he manages to roll his compressing machine arround you just roll back to the opposite direction as there would be nothing more easy in the world and pull again some angle while staying fast. After you did that a while and got enough angle and distance from the following airplane you can dive away and take your crate home or try to immel arround and take on the fight again with an HO merge. Maybe you can force the following plane so much into compression that he will pass by your side flying straight as a train and you can turn into his six. This tactic works quite well against planes like the 109's.
But don't try that again an 190.;) Be aware that in scissors you use your superior roll rate against the one of other slower rolling planes, so make sure you really have the faster rolling plane and try not to outsmart the Yak.:D
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couple of comments:
1) it is not possible to deny a shot entirely during a scissors manuever....often its the prospect of that shot that makes the scissors so effective. The key is to deny any type of tracking shot and to make the "shot window" as difficult as possible. The real goal is to create a situation where the outcome of his snapshot attempt is a tracking shot for the defender.
2) the worst thing the defender can do in scissors is to add energy. The entire purpose of a true scissors is to force an overshoot...victory (in theory) will go to the slower plane.
This is just one persons opinion of course...but it's important to differentiate a "true" scissors from other tactics utilizing smimiliar ACM components. A scissor is an aggresive defense against a higher E opponent who is actually IN your rear hemispere tracking shot envelope based on his weapons loadout. You do not utilize a scissor except to deny a shooting solution. Since the eventual goal of any guns defense is to generate an offensive opportunity and/or a chance to extend the scissors offers an immediate offenseive potential...or a possible to bug out if the bogie makes a conservative counter. The key is timing, in AH a scissor should start with con at 1200 or less...800 if lag isnt bad. You should have no more than 2-3 "scissors" until you determine one of the following:
1) the con has broken Hi and is "lag tracking" from above...basically just killing time hoping you burn whatever E you have left.
2) The con has successfully denied the overshoot and maintained an attack profile in your rear "envelope"
3) the con is aggresively engaging you and is "locked in" to a scissors engagement.
1 you should conserve E until the con re engages.
2 the energy differential (your greatest asset here) is not extreme enough and the con will now provide additional ventilation unless you alter tactics...any pray well enough
3 now you need to focus on the "details" of a scissors fight.
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Well I described for nearly no E difference between attacker and defender or only slightly E advantage of the attacker (points 2 and 3 of you humble). If a con with an high E advantage is bouncing you from above the last thing I would do is a flat scissor move, since it just unnecessarily wastes energy and you can just hope you have a newbie running into your 6 and future 12. Split-s or Barrel Roll would be more useful in such a situation.
But well in that case I wouldn't recommend a "true" scissor in the F4U after all. It's an Energy plane which needs the E for living, so taking it out on purpose comes close to suicide.
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I aggree with Humble and the others. Your first goal is to get the attacker into the opposite component of the scissor. Your second goal is to force an overshoot and get behind the attacker at close to the same E state.
There are other points to consider.
I try to make the attacker set his wings in a hard G pull. When I think that he has blacked out or greyed out I will reverse.
You can also use a negative G manuver. You will red out, but you will also dissapear under the attackers nose. When this occurs roll and continue a turn or reverse a turn.
Try to make your reversals while the attacker can't see you directly.
Additionally, you don't have to make strictly horizontal manuvers. Verticle manuvers work equally well.
One of the best at this IMO is hblair.
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Geeesy,
I'm certainly not "throwing rocks"...your correct what you described is NOT a true scissor. A scissor is simply a defensive ACM designed to deny a guns solution. What plane your in and what your ideal style of flying is not relevant to the issue. Simply put if you fly straight you die....there are other options to a scissors. The scissors only value is in forcing an overshoot. If you are engaged by a co-e bandit inside your rear envelope a scissors is probably not a good defense in many cases.
The hog is an excellent scissors plane...so is the jug (even more so) if the tactic is employed under the correct circumstances. All the points you mentioned have value...they just arent really applicable to a true scissors fight.
Again just my 2 cents
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Originally posted by humble
2) the worst thing the defender can do in scissors is to add energy. The entire purpose of a true scissors is to force an overshoot...victory (in theory) will go to the slower plane.
Be careful with this one, it depends on what you mean by "adding energy". In a rolling scissors (horizontal) the winner will be the one who can complete the top of the roll at the lowest speed. So, while you want to slow down as much as you can, you need to be careful not to slow down so much that you can't continue the rolls. It's tricky, but I just wan't to point out that simply chopping the throttle to avoid gaining E is not always a good thing. I know that's not really what you meant Humble, but I don't want to see folks killing the engine and falling out of the rolling scissors. :)
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Very true!
Typically, I would chop the throttle during a downwards flight path during rolling scissors, and increase it during the upwards part as much as needed to be, judging it by watching the relative position of the attacker behind.
This sort of throttle management is one of the largest advantages of Luftwaffe planes - typically the 109s - in that LW planes accelerate very good, and 109s, while mediocre in roll/turn performance, absolutely excells in low speed stability. The trick is to manage the rolling scissors to the absolute limit of stall speed. If you can successfully do so, if the attacker behind you refuses to be overshot he will stall and auger. If he refuses to stall out he will overshoot. Any of these two situations is the ultimate goal of the rolling-scissors, hence the term "Death Spiral". Someone follows the other into rolling scissors, one of them dies.
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Kweasa,
A "death spiral" is a rolling scissors heading straight down.
Hblair once posted a great film of a rolling scissor fight between himself and Zigrat. Couldn't find the link for it though. Maybe he would post it again.
F.
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[off topic but it was in the first post... kind of]
28 Sweep.. hmmm Detroit??
I do have a problem with it.... YES!!!
You 'stole' Hasek from us.
Or did he just desert us?
fuzeman
[ahhhhhhh shaddup fuzeman { a Sabre fan} ]
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very true rip...certainly could be taken out of context. Guess I needed to add "lowest speed consistant with completion of current Manv." The obvious plus of the rolling scissor is compounding the "technical" skill required by the opposing pilot.