Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fdiron on August 29, 2002, 06:43:28 PM
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Was Patton's methodology of "Attack, attack, then attack some more" a valid strategy or a way to gain more glory for himself?
IMO, Patton was a bit on the crazy side. He believed he was re-incarnated, he was always staging things to make himself look noble or magnificant, and he appeared to have little fear of death.
His search for personal glory got in the way of being a great General, as opposed to just a 'good' one. The debacle he made of trying to rescue the U.S. POWs from a German prison camp(which his son-in-law happened to be a part of, what a coincidence) FAR behind enemy lines cost many American lives.
His soldiers called him "Old Blood & Guts- Our blood, his guts"
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Well, he always got results.
Anyways its not like there is any sanity in war.
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Never heard of a brilliant commander of an army in the field that was not a meglomaniac to some degree.
Plenty of worse examples of 'sanity' in the great generals pantheon.
Patton succeeded in his craft because he was, despite his personailty flaws, an excellent student of War. I suspect he understood it better than any of us.
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My father-in-law worked for him. He couldn't stand the Gen. He told me most of Patton's men felt the same way.
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Originally posted by easymo
My father-in-law worked for him. He couldn't stand the Gen. He told me most of Patton's men felt the same way.
Was he squeak-slapped by Patton for shellshock syndrome?
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what would you rather have , a crazy patton or a incompetent lord mountbatton or a incompetent gen monty (python)
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Originally posted by Animal
Was he squeak-slapped by Patton for shellshock syndrome?
ROFLOL :D
DUCK AND COVER!
Seriously, fdiron I recommend reading some historical books on Patton, his biography as well as campaigns. You can get a much better understanding of the man than only what you see on The History Channel and like programming. It also helps to have comparisons like Monty (re Operation Market Garden), or Halsey in the Pacific, Bradley in Europe.
You may find it interesting to examine what the Germans thought of the Allied Generals in their analyses.
In summary, examine history carefully and then draw your own conclusions.
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My grandfather, who is 90 years old and still sharp as a tack, 'fought' against Patton in a training exercise in Mississippi. Patton maneuvered his tanks inbetween some hills and a deep culvert. Patton's tanks were then 'destroyed' by artillery fire by the group which my grandfather belonged to. My grandfather said Patton got so mad that he lost (or perhaps it was insane rage) that he insisted that everyone use live ammunition in the next exercise!
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Originally posted by fdiron
My grandfather, who is 90 years old and still sharp as a tack, 'fought' against Patton in a training exercise in Mississippi. Patton maneuvered his tanks inbetween some hills and a deep culvert. Patton's tanks were then 'destroyed' by artillery fire by the group which my grandfather belonged to. My grandfather said Patton got so mad that he lost (or perhaps it was insane rage) that he insisted that everyone use live ammunition in the next exercise!
LOL!!!
Ahhh... good ol' Patton. Only tards like me would feel honored to go back in time and fight for him.
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Originally posted by senna
Who was the best US general WWII? I know jack about Generals, thats too upper class for me. Im more an NCO sorta guy.
And why?
Wow that opens a debate. I am fairly well read in military history and I believe such a title of "best" would be impossible to administer. Many had there good and bad moments in history. Sometimes the bad moments are results of poor judgement. Sometimes watermelon happens. Sometimes good moments are a result of pure luck or chance, depending on your philosophical view. Sometimes what in all rights is a bad decision for various reasons ends in an enormous victory. This is one reason why gaming theory became so popular with military science in this century.
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Was he squeak-slapped by Patton for shellshock syndrome
No. He is a well decorated war hero. What are you?
Only tards like me would feel honored to go back in time and fight for him.
Would you be honored to die for him. Thats how he got things done.
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Originally posted by easymo
Was he squeak-slapped by Patton for shellshock syndrome
No. He is a well decorated war hero. What are you?
What do you care, and does it matter?
Back to the subject, I think Patton was a good general because he was aggressive. He didnt think twice to sacrifice troops for the sake of victory. That may seem dirty, but war is a dirty affair, and you have to win it.
edit- just saw easy's edit.
Would you be honored to die for him. Thats how he got things done.
In that war specifically, I would have died for my country. Not honored, but I believe I would have done it. Luckily, I dont have to prove it :)
Under what general, doesnt matter. Patton achieved results, and I agree with his views on warfare, so yes, I would have fought for him gladly.
This is moot, because he is dead, and thankfully, there is no need for me to try and be a war hero, wich in my opinion, is not the greatest of honors, just a dirty job.
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What do you care, and does it matter?
Well, your makeing some pretty bold claims. Knowing full well you will never have to prove them. I wond why anyone should belive you.
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Originally posted by easymo
What do you care, and does it matter?
Well, your makeing some pretty bold claims. Knowing full well you will never have to prove them. I wond why anyone should belive you.
Why should anyone believe me? it doesnt really matter because as you said, I will never have to prove anything.
But for the sake of entertainment:
Knowing myself well, if I were to travel back in time and accidentally fall in WWII era and get drafted in the ARMY, I would fight for my country under the command of Patton. Sure, why not? What is so bold a claim about that? He is one of the greatest generals this country has ever produced.
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Oh, and to call anyone crazy in a war would be like handing speeding tickets in the indy 500
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Its interesting how a persons personality comes out on the BBS, if he has posted enough. I, for example, am considered a bit of a hard bellybutton in real life. I think a little of that may creep out in my posts.
I have read enough of your posts, to have you figured for a total chicken toejam. I would be very, very surprised if you were not 4-F if you went back in time.
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Originally posted by easymo
Its interesting how a persons personality comes out on the BBS, if he has posted enough. I, for example, am considered a bit of a hard bellybutton in real life. I think a little of that may creep out in my posts.
I have read enough of your posts, to have you figured for a total chicken toejam. I would be very, very surprised if you were not 4-F if you went back in time.
LOL
Sure tough-guy, you know me like the palm of your hand!
As much as you like to believe you know everything about me you tard, you are comically mistaken. And I wont assume what you are like, not that I care anyways. I dont care if you are a 'hard ass' in real life as you gratuitously added in your ad-hom, to me, you are a bunch of retarded sentences and characters in a standard BBS font.
We were on a discussion here, about Patton. I made a joke to cite the widely publisiced squeak-slap incident Patton was charged with, to add to the 'insanity' discussion. What I said about going back and fighting for him was also a joke [you missed the word 'tards' in my post?]
Not everything said on this BBS is directed at you, or to impress you. And if you spend your time here analizing the posters personalities instead of discussing the subjects, then maybe you should spend your time in an AOL chatroom?
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I wont comment on YOUR intellect. Your posts do that adequately.
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I've heard Patton wasn't well liked by his troops in WW2. At any rate by that time most of the generals had their own press agents.
As far as great leaders go I would have been honored to have served under Col. Anthony Herbert, commander of the 173rd Airborn during latter days Viet Nam and the most decorated enlisted man in the Korean War. One big problem in Viet Nam was friendly fire casualties and Colonel Herbert ordered ALL M=16s be fired on semi-auto only. Not only did friendly fire casulties decrease but body counts increased as the infantryman relearned marksmanship skills.
All I know who served under him loved the guy, and if any of you would like to read a bit about Viet Nam and Col. Herbert then do a google search. I did just to post a link but it was hard to decide between several good ones.
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As to my cowardly father-in-law. He and his tank arrived on the Normandy beach head one week after the D-day invasion. He headed east, and didn't stop until he got to Berlin. He fought in the battle of the bulge, along the way. And among other jewelry, he picked up a purple heart, and an oak leaf to put on it.
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Originally posted by easymo
I wont comment on YOUR intellect. Your posts do that adequately.
Another ad homimem, this time what you meant is: "ok dude I'll back off now but I dislike you so I'll call you silly"
Thankfully you decided not to comment so we can keep talking about Patton, and not how I'm scared of butterflies and you killed three grizzly bears with your bare hands.
Originally posted by easymo
As to my cowardly father-in-law. He and his tank arrived on the Normandy beach head one week after the D-day invasion. He headed east, and didn't stop until he got to Berlin. He fought in the battle of the bulge, along the way. And among other jewelry, he picked up a purple heart, and an oak leaf to put on it.
Meant no offense to him, I dont doubt he was a fine soldier worthy of his brass like many young men who destroyed their youth in the war. My hat goes off to HIM.
I've heard Patton wasn't well liked by his troops in WW2. At any rate by that time most of the generals had their own press agents.
As far as great leaders go I would have been honored to have served under Col. Anthony Herbert, commander of the 173rd Airborn during latter days Viet Nam and the most decorated enlisted man in the Korean War. One big problem in Viet Nam was friendly fire casualties and Colonel Herbert ordered ALL M=16s be fired on semi-auto only. Not only did friendly fire casulties decrease but body counts increased as the infantryman relearned marksmanship skills.
All I know who served under him loved the guy, and if any of you would like to read a bit about Viet Nam and Col. Herbert then do a google search. I did just to post a link but it was hard to decide between several good ones.
Yes, wasnt he the most decorated batallion cmdr in Nam? My memory is a bit fuzzy on his specific feats but I do remember reading some pretty spectacular stuff.
As for me, seriously if I had no choice, I'd fight for Major Winters, the same guy the series Band of Brothers revolved around. If he was as good a leader as in the series (and it seems so from the individual grunt interviews) then he would be my choice.
Either that, or that Air Force General from 'Dr Strangelove' who kept blabbering about 'bodily fluids' ;)
Commander Rialbh would be a great choice too.
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Originally posted by Animal
And I wont assume what you are like, not that I care anyways. I dont care if you are a 'hard ass' in real life as you gratuitously added in your ad-hom, to me, you are a bunch of retarded sentences and characters in a standard BBS font.
"Meant no offense to him, I dont doubt he was a fine soldier worthy of his brass like many young men who destroyed their youth in the war. My hat goes off to HIM. "
Stick with one arguement. You're were right. You have no idea if he was a fine soldier. For the most part we honestly don't know what is BS or truth about each other on this BBS.
ie: My great grand-father WAS Patton. And I served under him in WW2 and I can honestly say that my fellow men loved him deeply.
The only truth in this medium is strength of our arguements, as they reflect historical record or scientific proof. The rest is just opinion.
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What kind of proof would you like? You name it. He probably remember his old service number. Would that do.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"Meant no offense to him, I dont doubt he was a fine soldier worthy of his brass like many young men who destroyed their youth in the war. My hat goes off to HIM. "
Stick with one arguement. You're were right. You have no idea if he was a fine soldier. For the most part we honestly don't know what is BS or truth about each other on this BBS.
ie: My great grand-father WAS Patton. And I served under him in WW2 and I can honestly say that my fellow men loved him deeply.
The only truth in this medium is strength of our arguements, as they reflect historical record or scientific proof. The rest is just opinion.
Yeah I guess you are right, but in this case I admit I believe easymo, he may be a tard but I dont see him lying about stuff like this or making up that his father in law fought in a tank in europe. Its not like that is extremely extraordinary.
Now, as for the old man meeting Patton and disliking him; Patton was not the kind of man a honorable war hero would get to like. Patton was scum. But he was the right man for the job, fighting a dirty war against scum enemies. Friggin NAZIs :mad:
Like him or not, Patton rocked.
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Patton was "scum"?
Put down the shovel.
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Weather reports a toejamstorm... you guys seen one in your areas?
Time to hunker down!
-SW
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Originally posted by Toad
Patton was "scum"?
Put down the shovel.
C'mon, he was no great like Eisenhower. He was an awesome General but by no means a lovable guy. Far from it.
He squeak-slapped his troopers, threatned them, talked smack, and was a bit megalomaniacal. He was a dog of war.
An awesome general though. Just like Rommel or Yamamoto. You wouldnt be bothered if I called them scum now would you?
Same breed IMO.
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Bothered? No. I rarely get bothered over what I read on the AH BBS.
But Scum? Patton, Rommel or Yammamoto? No, I don't think so; far from it in fact. You've got three really fine military minds in this group.
And I think the hole you started digging for yourself with your replies to Easymo just gets deeper every time you post such stuff.
Here's a quick read on Patton.. tell me if you still think he's "scum" after you read it. Like both Rommel and Yammamoto he was an "achiever" and a "leader". But perhaps your definition of "scum" is quite different than mine.
General George S. PATTON (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mickay/patton.htm)
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Originally posted by Toad
Bothered? No. I rarely get bothered over what I read on the AH BBS.
But Scum? Patton, Rommel or Yammamoto? No, I don't think so; far from it in fact. You've got three really fine military minds in this group.
And I think the hole you started digging for yourself with your replies to Easymo just gets deeper every time you post such stuff.
Here's a quick read on Patton.. tell me if you still think he's "scum" after you read it. Like both Rommel and Yammamoto he was an "achiever" and a "leader". But perhaps your definition of "scum" is quite different than mine.
General George S. PATTON (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mickay/patton.htm)
Perhaps it is.
And what is this hole thing you keep talking about?
LOL, this has to be the funniest BBS on the web.
As for our different definitions of scum, anyone who ENJOYS war as Patton clearly did, fills that definition. Being a military "ahiever" doesnt mean you are a fine person. Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Attila, Sauron, etc.
Anywyas, its all IMO, and I dont see that changing no matter how much you believe the "hole" gets deeper, wich I assume means something like 'get in line with the rest of us or you will be un-popular'
I'll quote good ol' Einstein before I go to bed, even if it will make the 'hole' go a few meters deeper:
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice. This disgrace to civilisation should be done away at once. Heroism at command, sensless brutality, deporable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder"
This quote is not directed at the fine men who had no choice but to fight, and did it valiantly with honor. They are better than I am and I wont deny that.
I admire Patton for his military genious. The guy knew his stuff. But I hold no illussions of him and others of his kind being glorious heroes like we see in Hollywood, books, and great writings made to glorify them. War is the filthiest crap we humans have created and I refuse to believe anyone who is BORN for it is wonderfully good person.
Flame me all you want.
Ghandi = Great man.
Patton = Scum; also great military genious, and cool guy.
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from the link Toad posted:
"Soldier, General, Pilot, Athlete, Father, Gun Owner, Hero, Legend"[/b]
LOL!
I'm reading thru the stuff, not over yet.
Haha, yeah, a completly objective and level article, it will probably change my mind, I mean, thats what its meant for!
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"George Patton decided during childhood that his goal in life was
to be a hero."
Well theres the problem right there, he totaly missed the 80s by 40 years.
Easymo, please dont flip out and kill anybody.
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Einstein of course fled to the USA where he could make such self-rightous speechs comdeming war and those who fought to keep his arse safe
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Einstein fled while the Germans murdered his bretheren, and he wouldn't even help build the atomic bomb.
Anyways its not like there is any sanity in war.
Not sure that I can agree with this. Sure, combat is chaotic, but I don't think everyone is insane who fights in a war.
Patton took undue risks with his men's lives. Wars don't last forever, and Patton ended many of his men's lives in order to capture a town a bit quicker, in order to be the first to take a bridge, or in order to get a bit of fame in the papers.
Its not the General who gets on the front lines and fights. Generals don't assault towns and shoot Germans hiding in buildings. Generals aren't the crewmembers in M4 Shermans when they approach hidden 88mm anti-tank guns.
Is it my opinion that Patton could have saved alot of U.S. lives by using a bit more strategy than "all out attack".
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You guys are all (relatively) clueless. :)
Read my thread on Yamamoto, Patton, and Rommel.
Mike/wulfie
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Einstien was a coward obviously. He was smart (or maybe he was just lucky) but then when was the last time you heard stories of a wild man with crazy electric hair blasting everybody on the battlefield to smithereans.
Wulfie! wasup?
I still havent forgiven you for draggin me down 10k and gettin me kilt in my P-38.
:)
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Senna when was that? (I honestly can't remember refresh my memory).
Mike/wulfie
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It was the island map, the night Yankee was online. I was floating up to 20k as usual in my P-38 and heard some stuff over voice comms. You were saying, "senna save some for me". Looked back 6 low, you were out about a ways still. I orbited and you engaged, then you were outnumbered and headed south so I went down to help and I got kilt. Said to myself, that wulfie, cant believe he got me kilt. What a situation. Funny thing is that you stayed alive for quite a while after they got me with all them bandits around in that 190, musta been an a5. Think I was chasing a spit and you a 109 then a yak and la-7 showed up then more. We were down at around 1000 ft.
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AnimalThis quote is not directed at the fine men who had no choice but to fight, and did it valiantly with honor. They are better than I am and I wont deny that.
[/b]
Only those that "had no choice but to fight" are admirable?
So your contention then is that professional military men are "scum"?
Those that CHOOSE to learn the profession of arms because they know "someone has to do it" are scum?
The hole? There's an old saying..."when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging!" You obviously hadn't heard it.
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I believe this is all just more of animals much vaunted "knack" for reaing people and winning debate.
lazs
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sorry animal you wouldent have been alowed to fight for patton you wouldent pass the paper bag test :)
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Okay I think I remember that...but:
1. It was a D-9 if it was this most recent TOD. Been putting in some D-9 time (all sorties this TOD are D-9).
2. You couldn't have heard me on vox - no mic and no headphones and I have vox totally disabled. All messages from me outside of 'auto-check 6' are going to be text messages.
Mike/wulfie
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The lack of respect for professional military men in American society before WW2 was what caused the U.S. military in WW2 to be 'an army of inexperienced volunteers led by a core of professionals'.
The U.K. and other Allies were amazed at how much the U.S. military expanded under this type of program and how fast and smooth said expansion went (remember - most European Nations have a long professional military tradition). But when this expansion met with some problems (due to losses of 'core professional personnel', and no 'career professionals' around to fill in for those losses) the U.S. military suffered a disproportionately high # of casualties - especially in ground combat in NWE.
So, in short - the lack of respect for professional/career military men in U.S. society before WW2 actually led to higher U.S. losses. There's a lesson to be learned there, but the U.S. has a habit of forgetting hard earned lessons 'until the next disaster hits'.
For a good account of this, read 'Proud Legions' by T.R. Fehrnbach (some of Fehrnbach's writings are required reading for all potential flag rank officers in the U.S. military if memory serves).
(During World War II, Mr. Fehrenbach served with the U.S. Infantry and Engineers as Platoon Sergeant with the 3189th Engineer Battalion. He continued his military career in the Korean War, rising from Platoon Leader to Company Commander and then to Battalion Staff Officer of the 72nd Tank battalion, 2nd Infantry Division. He is currently a Major, Armor USAR. Previous to his military involvement, a young T.R. Fehrenbach, born in San Benito Texas, worked as a farmer and the owner of an insurance company. He now devotes his time to free-lance writing. He has sold numerous pieces to publications such as the Saturday Evening Post and Argosy. He is the author of several books, including U.S. Marines in Action, The Battle of Anzio, and This Kind of War. Mr. Fehrenbach still lives in Texas.)
Mike/wulfie
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Einstein fled while the Germans murdered his bretheren, and he wouldn't even help build the atomic bomb.
Define help?
And.... are you saying that the "brave Jews" stayed in Germany to die? C'mon!
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Originally posted by Toad
Only those that "had no choice but to fight" are admirable?
So your contention then is that professional military men are "scum"?
Those that CHOOSE to learn the profession of arms because they know "someone has to do it" are scum?
The hole? There's an old saying..."when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging!" You obviously hadn't heard it. [/B]
Sorry, I havent found myself in a hole.
You havent answered my question, what does it mean? 'get in line or you'll be disliked' or something like that?
LOL, like I wanna be one more sad retard like TOWD "please dont ban me I'll be good now" or lasz "I'm not las he is a poopie, i'm lasz I'm cool!". No thanks, I'll keep diggin' a hole, and you are invited in from time to time.
Those who train for war are not scum in my book. Not all of them.
But those who seem to enjoy it as if it was a fine cigar, classical music, or a good game of chess, are scum. Same as those who just cant wait for battle. If you have been associated with the military, you know what I mean. There are many of those to go around. Those eager for battle, "When does the toejam start! I cant wait for combat, maybe I should get reassigned!"
You disagree? do you think they are just fine men who have a god blessed 'knack' for killing many people?
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Originally posted by easymo
if you were not 4-F
What is 4-F? Not able for combat service? Here we have such a code "7B", "not able for combat service due to mental disability".
[Edit] Please, no offences, it's just a folklore element here in Ruissia, we even have a pop-band called "7b"...
I can't judge about mr. Patton, the only "serious" book about "allied" forces in Europe was Omar Bradley's "Soldier's Diary" (BTW, translated to Russian in mid-50s). From that book I got an idea that Patton was absolutely crazy :( Even considering it was war time. There is nothing more dangerous then a crazy general at war :(
I also saw a movie "Patton", and I want to say it's 50% crappy cold war propaganda. :( It's based on Bradley's book (at least it's what I read in credits after the film), but all the attitude is completely different from Bradley's opinion... And that scene with Soviet officers is extremely stupid. Bradley was very warm about his allies, only said they were precautioned to take some mineral oil before dinner with Russians, and was humorous about "military" artists performing to the generals and how he have "beaten" Soviet generals with his "military" violin player ;)
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My buddy here at work was a Marine A-4 pilot in Nam. He told me this little story Yesterday.
Every pilot in the Corps did a 1 month stint as a forward ground observer. when his time was up he choppered out to DaNang. I guess the huey had to stop about 2 miles from his final destination, so he walks.
On the way he past 2 newbees who had supply jobs or something. My friend was looking pretty obviously like a guy who had been in-country for 30 days. Both of these guys stopped and said "Hey Capt. You were out there huh?" "How do we get out there?" -- They wanted to see some action.
My friend said it was one of the few times he can remember blowing his cool at an enlisted man. He proceeded to call them both a couple of diddlying idiots and told them that he just left 400 guys who would give their left nut to change places with them.
These 2 idiots are the kind of people Einstein was talking about.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
My buddy here at work was a Marine A-4 pilot in Nam. He told me this little story Yesterday.
Every pilot in the Corps did a 1 month stint as a forward ground observer. when his time was up he choppered out to DaNang. I guess the huey had to stop about 2 miles from his final destination, so he walks.
On the way he past 2 newbees who had supply jobs or something. My friend was looking pretty obviously like a guy who had been in-country for 30 days. Both of these guys stopped and said "Hey Capt. You were out there huh?" "How do we get out there?" -- They wanted to see some action.
My friend said it was one of the few times he can remember blowing his cool at an enlisted man. He proceeded to call them both a couple of diddlying idiots and told them that he just left 400 guys who would give their left nut to change places with them.
These 2 idiots are the kind of people Einstein was talking about.
That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.
Thank you.
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Animals extensive domestic engineer experiance would be highly prized by Patton. Good valets are hard to find. Wonder if his dad would let him go though...
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Originally posted by Pongo
Animals extensive domestic engineer experiance would be highly prized by Patton. Good valets are hard to find. Wonder if his dad would let him go though...
Heh, another ad hom by a notoriously pathetic 'me too'
Keep 'em coming Pongo. Though I dont know why you would think I would be good servitude; I assume you think I'm physically disabled, or because of my race or culture, or maybe its a common insult from where you come? you give no info.
By the way, my father has been in a coma for the last month and a half you dumb diddly.
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No, I think many of them are fine men that step forward to do a job that very few will do. Men that sacrifice a great deal for the good of all. Men that train and study and devote themselves to a task that they hope they'll never have to do. And if you don't think Patton fits that mold, you haven't really studied his career. I'm not saying he was the "perfect general". I'm saying he clearly wasn't scum, however one would define that term.
Holes: let's see if this helps clear it up:
Stop Digging (http://www.rogo.com/cac/rizzo9.html)
""If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
These were the words of Oded Cohen, as he showed us how to teach the Management Skills Workshop (MSW). According to Oded, business is about relationships. They may be relationships between customers and employees. They may be relationships between ourselves and our subordinates or even our superiors.
But it's all about relationships. So, if you see that what you're saying and how you're saying it are damaging your relationship with that seemingly stubborn colleague, then stop. Break the comm. link. Cease transmission. Redirect your output to the bit-bucket. But stop damaging the relationship. Give yourself a chance to cool off and to think about the conflict
that is causing such emotion in you.
But stop digging that hole, because you'll only make it more difficult to climb out later."
The basic reference is business but perhaps you'll get the drift.
But, of course, if you're perfect, feel free to ignore the advice.
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I dont think I'm perfect, but this is not a business and I dont see how I can do any harm arguing with someone here. What fun there is here if we have to sugar coat and censor the things we say for fear that someone will throw a tantrum? ;)
Whatever, 'I'm Sorry for the joke easymo' if that will make him feel better.
No, I think many of them are fine men that step forward to do a job that very few will do. Men that sacrifice a great deal for the good of all. Men that train and study and devote themselves to a task that the hope they'll never have to do. And if you don't think Patton fits that mold, you haven't really studied his career. I'm not saying he was the "perfect general". I'm saying he clearly wasn't scum, however one would define that term.
I think we agree more in some levels than you believe. I'm gonna give examples. I think men like Eisenhower, Adolf Galland, Lincon fit that mold like a glove. Great men who got tied up in a dirty affair and tried put some closure to it so that they could end the war and go on.
However, Patton, McArthur, Churchill, etc, dont. From reading their personal accounts, it seems to me more that they took war like a fine event to prove their worth. Look at Patton, his whole life he grew up yearning for a war to come so that he could be remembered as a hero in history. He was very high in the comand chain, but I see no difference between him and the guys from MT's coworker story.
True heroes dont want that stuff to happen. They DONT want to be heroes. It just happens.
That is I M O of course, and as I have said many times, I still admire Patton's military genious, but he was no great savior with no choice like the movie 'Gladiator'. He was having the time of his life.
Now should I call 'uncle', drop the shovel and end this arguement, or should I stay and keep trying to explain my point as I dodge personal attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
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I haven't made any ad hominem attacks against you or anyone else; that's not my style.
I just disagreed with you. Still do. I found some of what you posted mildly offensive. Had I been Easymo, I would have found it very offensive.
WRT to Patton, we just disagree. Most likely this stems from the large difference in experiences with the militarly establishment between you and I.
Was he the greatest general? No. Was he scum? Hardly.
Even Lee, a general and a person that I greatly admire said: "It is well that war is so terrible - we should grow to fond of it."
Was Lee "scum"? Hardly.
Beyond that, there's Ernie King's comment: ""When they get in trouble, they send for the sons of squeakes." Patton was an SOB at times, no doubt. But sometimes that's part of the job.
WRT to holes; I hope that helped to explain. Business or BBS, we make our own personnas by how we interact with our fellows. Here on the BBS, we build our personnas one post at time. So dig ... or don't dig. Your choice. ;)
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I know you havent attacked me personally.
Maybe I shouldnt have used the word scum, just SOB instead. Ironic cause I find SOB more offensive, but whatever, point taken and frankly its not different than mine at all.
I think what you disagreed with was the word scum? well then, I'll use SOB next time. If you read my posts from the begining you'll notice that I dont hate Patton.
Beyond that, there's Ernie King's comment: ""When they get in trouble, they send for the sons of squeakes." Patton was an SOB at times, no doubt. But sometimes that's part of the job.
This is exactly what I was trying to say from the begining and what I believe.
I just disagreed with you. Still do. I found some of what you posted mildly offensive. Had I been Easymo, I would have found it very offensive.
I thought you never got bothered by stuff posted on a BBS, but now you tell me you found it mildly offensivem, very offensive from easymo's POV. Wich is is it then?
I'm sorry if the squeak-slap comment was so offensive. I bet the poor dudes who got the slap by Patton were waaaaay more offended than that though.
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"Offensive" doesn't keep me up at night.
"Bothered" might keep me up at night.
:)
Yeah, scum is a poor choice of words. "a low, vile, or worthless person or group of people". Doesn't apply, IMO.
"SOB" in it's usual military context doesn't imply low, vile or worthless. In fact, sometimes it's high praise. See King's remark. It's pretty versatile.. kinda like the F word is used in the military.
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totaly off the wall but....
Pattons Grandaughter has the biggest boobies I have ever seen :cool:
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Originally posted by JimBear
totaly off the wall but....
Pattons Grandaughter has the biggest boobies I have ever seen :cool:
Pictures please.
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Animal cornered..plays not only the race card..but the dad in a coma card..lol
None of the above idiot. You posted at length about your life as domestic help for dad once...You were proud of it then..not any more I guess..
Should I crack a snipe about how your dad may or may not have gotten in a coma...thats what you would do... going by your posts in this thread...
If your sensitive about your employment..dont advertise it.
If your sensisitve about your father, dont take shots at other peoples families.
my attack on you wasnt an ad homimem, I didnt say you were wrong..I just flamed you. I know its your word of the day but you are over using it a bit.
I read "Soldier" by Anthony Herbert many years ago and it was an excellent book. Highly recomended.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Animal cornered..plays not only the race card..but the dad in a coma card..lol
None of the above idiot. You posted at length about your life as domestic help for dad once...You were proud of it then..not any more I guess..
Should I crack a snipe about how your dad may or may not have gotten in a coma...thats what you would do... going by your posts in this thread...
If your sensitive about your employment..dont advertise it.
If your sensisitve about your father, dont take shots at other peoples families.
my attack on you wasnt an ad homimem, I didnt say you were wrong..I just flamed you. I know its your word of the day but you are over using it a bit.
I read "Soldier" by Anthony Herbert many years ago and it was an excellent book. Highly recomended.
Cornered? cards?
LOL man you are an idiot. The race card? well, I sincerely had no clue why you brought the servitude thing, so I assumed a few things including that cause it was completly irrational thing. dad in a coma card? what will that card get me off from (not that I have to get off from anything in here) just pointing out that if you are so omni-knowing about my personal affairs you should at least get the facts straight. If you dont believe that, whatever. If I were to lie about something, I'd make sweet happy lies about how my life is paradise.
Yes, I am proud that I came to live with my father after his stroke and his deteriorating health. I put my studies on hold for 4 months to help him in his recovery, much to his annoyance (he will never admit he needs help from anyone) and I am proud to admit I did all the domestic work in his apartment when he was unable. Sadly my dad is slowly creeping out of this world, and I'm proud I was the only person there with him in his last months.
You have a spooky interest about my life for someone who doesnt know me and seem to loathe me for some strange reason. I guess the internet is full of sad lowlives like you. Take all the cheap shots you can make up about my dad and his current state, I know that kind of stuff makes your day.
Sensitive about my employment? well yes I guess working tech support is not the most glamorous thing in the world, but I'm not gonna get a CEO job in my age. I get a very nice paycheck for my limited experience though, and it helps pay the books and gasoline.
No shame in my personal life, bud. I'd say it should be currently better than yours, seeing how you have so much interest in other people's lives (enough to memorize what I may have said in a post I have long forgotten?). I guess its great for the ego that someone who is completly stranger to me (I dont even remember anything you have posted, said, or even seeing you inside Aces High) knows so much about me. :)
my attack on you wasnt an ad homimem, I didnt say you were wrong..I just flamed you. I know its your word of the day but you are over using it a bit.
Huh, you have no idea what the word means? I keep bringing the word because people here keep doing it. Saying someone is wrong is not an ad hom, bring up someone's personal stuff in an arguement IS exactly an ad hom.
As for easymo, I already apologized to him. I never took a cheap shot about his family, I made a joke about Patton, wich may have come across as offensive to some for reasons I would not have predicted back when I posted that.
You can keep flaming me Pongo, its probably a great vent from your own personal problmes to scrutinize the little things not working in other people's life. But if you are going to do so, at least get the information right, so you dont look like an ignorant tard.
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"Animals extensive domestic engineer experiance would be highly prized by Patton. Good valets are hard to find. Wonder if his dad would let him go though..."
LOL, sorry Animal, its funny.
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Originally posted by senna
"Animals extensive domestic engineer experiance would be highly prized by Patton. Good valets are hard to find. Wonder if his dad would let him go though..."
LOL, sorry Animal, its funny.
Heh, yeah I know the sentence is funny in itself, funnier still if you look at it from my POV, and comically pathetic that he actually thought of that and used it. (specially after his follow up) :)
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scum Pronunciation Key (skm)
n.
A filmy layer of extraneous or impure matter that forms on or rises to the surface of a liquid or body of water.
The refuse or dross of molten metals.
Refuse or worthless matter.
Slang. One, such as a person or an element of society, that is regarded as despicable or worthless.
Toad - "Patton was "scum"?
Put down the shovel."
Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule
1. X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
2. Therefore claim C is false.
Toad - "But Scum? Patton, Rommel or Yammamoto? No, I don't think so; far from it in fact. You've got three really fine military minds in this group."
Inductive Argument
Premise 1. Most fine military minds aren't scum.
Premise 2. Patton was a fine military mind.
Conculsion. Patton was not scum.
Toad - "Like both Rommel and Yammamoto he was an "achiever" and a "leader". But perhaps your definition of "scum" is quite different than mine. "
Inductive Arguments
Premise 1. Most achievers and leaders aren't scum.
Premise 2. Patton was an achiver and a leader.
Conculsion. Patton was not scum.
Toad - "Holes: let's see if this helps clear it up:
Stop Digging
""If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging." "
And once again.
Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule
Pongo - "Animal cornered......"
"None of the above idiot.." (sigh)
"my attack on you wasnt an ad homimem, I didnt say you were wrong..I just flamed you. I know its your word of the day but you are over using it a bit."
Which is correct. As he never actually says anything, and makes no arguments.
Slang. One, such as a person or an element of society, that is regarded as despicable or worthless.
The tern "Scum" is subjective. Animal thinks he scum. Therefore to Animal he is scum. Toad doesn't think he scum. Therefore to Toad he is not scum.
Toad, I only have one link in my favorites folder. Thanks. :)
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LOL Thrawn, I had to read that twice
Quite original style of writing
And its true (if I understood correctly?)
Man, you think like an android :)
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Nice analysis Thrawn.
Don't agree with you either :D
"Put down the shovel" Advice, take it or leave it. He left it.
"three fine military minds" Toad's opinion. Worth as much as yours or Animals.
"Definition of scum": Patton dispicable? Not in Toad's opinion.
"Find yourself in a hole": Advice, take it or leave it. He left it.
Thanks for making my day though! It isn't a real thread without your cheerful presence! It's nice.
Here's a test for ya Thrawn... I'll say "on" and you say ________
I'll say "black" and you'll say ________
:D
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Ya..Im one of those pathetic people that read this bbs and remember what they read…
I’m not interested in you Animal, but I am interested in the BBS, that’s where I remembered the little domestic tidbit from. Its not so strange that I remember it, although It’s a little strange that you posted it, and that the story is changing from you loafing at home doing your dads laundry for a living to you saving your dad.
You really don’t get the ad homimem thing, Ill make it clear for you, as you’re evidently used to being around people that are so stupid that they let you redefine words at your leisure.
Lets say someone thought Patton was the best general in US history.
Another guy disagrees with him saying that his uncle served with Patton and thought he was an idiot,
Then the Patton fan says that the uncle must have been squeak slapped by Patton for cowardice and there for his opinion on Patton does not matter..
That is an ad homimem. Its not the insult it’s the fact of saying the other person is wrong because of it.
Its kind of funny that you use the term so much.
But I am free to remind you of your previous domestic posts without committing an ad homimem as long as I don’t try to win the debate by doing so. As I am just flaming you and not really participating in the debate, your use of the word in relation to my post is incorrect. You will have to find a new big word to use I think.
When I say you can be Patton’s valet and you say that I am saying that because your black..that’s the race card. You play it to portray any criticism of you as racially based and the person who says it as prejudiced. Even though they said nothing about your race at all.
You know..race card.
As you have said you can make up anything you like about yourself on the BBS. But it seems a lot of work to go to for something you maintain you care so little about. Stange to start such a flame fest when you are so sensitive, strange to post such stuff about yourself if you are so sensitive about it..
Strange to use the term ad homimem incorrectly so often in your own defence when you started this mess with the most blatant example of one.
Just strange. But I love a good flame so thanks bud.
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Believe it or not Toad, I'm a great admirer of your posts. For the most part, your arguments are well thought out and well presented. If I had done a discourse analysis on most other posters in most other threads, I would still be writing it up.
I wouldn't have been able to attempt it if you hadn't posted a link to this site http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index, a while ago. I think it should be required reading for everyone on this board.
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Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
I hope that brings some closure to your stupidity, it perfectly suited your first post in this thread. I didnt even care to read your whole last post just the begining. This thread is dead anyways so if you want to keep any personal vendetta against me for some reason then start a new one or do it in private (though that would lose the whole point why you do it (people who love flames are obvious attention potatos))
If you do start a new thread or if you email me, please link to the thread where I said I was 'loafing around doing my dads laundry' or when someone else said it, cause I sure want to read that because you obviously have some information about me that I dont :) (LOL)
Cya Pongo, xoxoxo
Originally posted by Pongo
Ya..Im one of those pathetic people that read this bbs and remember what they read…
I’m not interested in you Animal, but I am interested in the BBS, that’s where I remembered the little domestic tidbit from. Its not so strange that I remember it, although It’s a little strange that you posted it, and that the story is changing from you loafing at home doing your dads laundry for a living to you saving your dad.
You really don’t get the ad homimem thing, Ill make it clear for you, as you’re evidently used to being around people that are so stupid that they let you redefine words at your leisure.
Lets say someone thought Patton was the best general in US history.
Another guy disagrees with him saying that his uncle served with Patton and thought he was an idiot,
Then the Patton fan says that the uncle must have been squeak slapped by Patton for cowardice and there for his opinion on Patton does not matter..
That is an ad homimem. Its not the insult it’s the fact of saying the other person is wrong because of it.
Its kind of funny that you use the term so much.
But I am free to remind you of your previous domestic posts without committing an ad homimem as long as I don’t try to win the debate by doing so. As I am just flaming you and not really participating in the debate, your use of the word in relation to my post is incorrect. You will have to find a new big word to use I think.
When I say you can be Patton’s valet and you say that I am saying that because your black..that’s the race card. You play it to portray any criticism of you as racially based and the person who says it as prejudiced. Even though they said nothing about your race at all.
You know..race card.
As you have said you can make up anything you like about yourself on the BBS. But it seems a lot of work to go to for something you maintain you care so little about. Stange to start such a flame fest when you are so sensitive, strange to post such stuff about yourself if you are so sensitive about it..
Strange to use the term ad homimem incorrectly so often in your own defence when you started this mess with the most blatant example of one.
Just strange. But I love a good flame so thanks bud.
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No, its not bud..your using the term incorrectly..must be a reflex.
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Standing in judgement over folks who fought wars, all while the copier needs a new toner cartridge.
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Rude, I want my Zarda's BBQ sandwich!!
When is the KC Chapter of the AH Brethren getting together again?
Cobra
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Define help?
And.... are you saying that the "brave Jews" stayed in Germany to die? C'mon!
Einstein refused to contribute to the making of the atomic bomb. He was a pacifist.
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IIRC Einstein wrote a letter to Roosevelt at the beginning of the war explaining that a bomb could be built and expressing concern that the Germans may already be working on it. It was Einstein who really got the ball rolling that led to the Manhattan Project.
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Dear President Bush, time travel is possible [probably]. Someone could already be building a time machine.
PS- I am against time travel and I wont help you design, test, or fund your project.
I just contributed as much as Einstein did.
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Actually you didn't fdiron.
You are not a noted and respected scientist in the field of time travel so your contribution carries no weight.
You are not from a country that is waging war on half the world's populace and therefore your information carries no weight.
The reality of time travel is much further off than the reality of the atom bomb was at the time of Einstein's warning, so therefore your warning carries no weight.
But I think you already knew that.
Cobra
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Einstein Schmeinstein, heres the guy who really did the work.
In 1933, a Hungarian scientist working in England, Leo Szilard, first theorized that enormous amounts of energy could be released by a nuclear "chain reaction."
In December 1938, German scientists Otto Hahn, Fritz Strassmann, Lise Meitner, and Otto Frisch discovered nuclear fission in uranium, the heaviest natural element. The fissioning produced a tremendous release of energy; because a very small amount of uranium was involved, no one was endangered.
Szilard, who had come to America to conduct chain-reaction research, was convinced that Hitler would attempt to build an "atomic" bomb. He believed that the United States ought to do it first. However, Szilard lacked the clout to get a bomb project going. He and fellow Hungarians working in the States, Eugene Wigner and Edward Teller, persuaded Albert Einstein, the world's most famous scientist, to write a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Dated August 2, 1939, the letter said that it was conceivable that "extremely powerful bombs of a new type might be constructed." Einstein urged the government to help university scientists with their research into chain reactions. He also implied that Germany might be working on chain reactions.
From: http://www.bullatomsci.org/research/qanda/invent.html
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"Albert Einstein, the world's most famous scientist, to write a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Dated August 2, 1939, the letter said that it was conceivable that "extremely powerful bombs of a new type might be constructed." Einstein urged the government to help university scientists with their research into chain reactions. He also implied that Germany might be working on chain reactions."
No help at all. :rolleyes:
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You got to be kidding right? The World's most famous scientist wrote a letter, only a letter, and that was his contribution to World War II. On top of that, he had to be coerced to write it by the brains-behind-the-atomic-bomb.
I believe that Einstein truly was a great scientists, but his eccentricities and other factors caused him to be slightly out of touch with reality. The U.S. could have used his help to stop the war SOONER. With that, I have nothing more to add to this matter about Einstein.
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I think most politicians are scum. The politicians are the ones who usually start the wars, not the generals.
Any general that purposely and needlessly sacrifices the lives of his men to gain a place in history sounds kind of a scummy thing to do. Any general that gains the military objective choosing the most efficient way (read that as less soldiers in his command becoming casualties) is not scum. Provided of coarse there is a clear choice to the commander at that time.
Regards,
wSNPR
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You need not respect the man, but you must respect the rank.
That is a soldiers woe.
How many respected Patton as a man?
I'd have hated his guts im sure.
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Patton was a great thinker along the lines of Rommel. Good terrain instinct. He read Rommel's book. Rommel is a tough act to follow. He ate what his troops ate, kept EVERY POW alive and fed them (ignored EVERY order from Hitler to kill them).
Patton was fortunate enough to have the quantity of tanks. But, his instinct is what without a doubt separated him from the rest of the American generals. He was cavalry, and even though they were a "new mechanized cavalry", those old school generals missed the gallant horses. Even though, he loved Tanks and saw them as the ideal weapon, he missed horses, all cavalryy did. He was a hard bellybutton that didn't want excuses, but wanted results. I think anyone who enjoys war is crazy to some extent. It is easy when you aren't in one to say how great war would be. When your "dream" comes true, all of that goes in the toejamter.
The "slapping of the soldier" incident in Sicily, was total BS. The media took the story and ran with it. He was showing the soldier tough love, that's all. That was Patton's way (maybe not the right way) of dealing with the situation. Ike was too busy kissing Monty's bellybutton to properly deal with the incident, so "Omar, you deal with it". Patton was never given the respect he deserved because of his "don't stop until you run out of gas, and when you run out of gas, push your tank!" attitude, Rommel had the same attitude and was in the same boat as he was, superior minds in a seaful of idiots. The ONLY other General with more of a mind than Rommel was his Idol, Heinz Guderian.
Patton believing he was re-incarnated does NOT make him crazy.
The drivers of both vehicles that killed should have been put on a firing squad though.
Karaya2
PS - when "any war generals" are brought up why is Vo Giap never given any respect?
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Quote from his book
In a recent interview published in The Wall Street Journal, former colonel Bui Tin who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975 confirmed the American Tet 1968 military victory: "Our loses were staggering and a complete surprise. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for reelection.
The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to reestablish our presence but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely.
We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was." And on strategy: "If Johnson had granted Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war.... it was the only way to bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South. Building and maintaining the trail was a huge effort involving tens of thousands of
soldiers, drivers, repair teams, medical stations, communication units .... our operations were never compromised by attacks on the trail. At times, accurate B-52 strikes would cause real damage, but we put so much in at the top of the trail that enough men and weapons to prolong the war always came out the bottom .... if all the bombing had been concentrated at one time, it would
have hurt our efforts. But the bombing was expanded in slow stages under Johnson and it didn't worry us. We had plenty of time to prepare alternative routes and facilities. We always had stockpiles of rice ready to feed the people for months if a harvest was damaged. The Soviets bought rice from Thailand for us. And the left: "Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to follow the growth of the antiwar movement.
Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey
Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and would struggle along with us .... those people represented the conscience of America .... part of it's war- making capability, and we turning that power in our favor." Bui Tin went on to serve as the editor of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. Disillusioned with the reality of Vietnamese communism Bui Tin now lives in Paris.
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Originally posted by easymo
Disillusioned with the reality of Vietnamese communism Bui Tin now lives in Paris.
Pretty much says it all right there, eh? ;)
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Yeah, Toad. He prefers French-style socialism over Vietnamese-style socialism.
Easymo, good read and thanks for posting.