Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 10Bears on August 29, 2002, 09:07:03 PM
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Propaganda
Hitler would have known the American right
by Bryan Zepp Jamieson
8/30/02
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/VRWC/propaganda.htm
Back around 1980, when BBSes - the local ASCII equivalents of Usenet -
first showed up, extremists in the White Power and Nazi movements were
delighted. At last, they had a cheap and - they thought - effective
method of getting their message out to the masses. They were convinced
that only the ignorance of the sheep prevented Hitler's vision from
becoming America's future.
This caused considerable consternation. It was pretty horrific to
contemplate that the computer - the cutting edge of humanity's
technology and ingenuity, and the new incredible frontier in
communication - was being perverted to such ends. More than one person
was struck by the juxtaposition of brilliance and vileness.
Many of us quickly realized the best thing to do about the hate mongers
was to let them put up their own boards and propagate to their heart's
content.
Part of it was simply the fact that in a healthy and stable culture,
hate has limited appeal. It's one thing to say that most people
stereotype and have prejudicial thoughts, but for most, it's an
indulgence, a weakness, and doesn't translate into the active antipathy
needed to become a full-blown hater. And those weak enough to fall into
such a trap are often too weak to act on it.
In a healthy society, the vast majority of people are better than what
the haters have to offer, and the vileness of the haters, more than
anything else, limits them. Most people don't need warnings on their
cigarette packages to know that racial and religious hatred are wrong.
And the obvious dangers of preempting the rights of the haters to
present their views outweighed the minor appeal they had among
disaffected teens.
Only in a sick society are they a real danger. Hitler wouldn't have
been able to seize power had Germany not been broke and broken by the
Treaty of Versailles and the collapse of the mark. A decent
unemployment rate, and Hitler would have been nothing more than a minor
footnote in German history, a nasty crackpot who used to hang around the
beer halls and rant about Jews and communists.
A second reason to not interfere with the rights of the haters to
express themselves was that it put them out in the light of day, were we
could see what they were up to.
In a minor incident the other day, it paid off. Someone managed to get
Target Stores to carry a line of clothing that had the innocent logo,
"88". However, the number appears quite frequently on neo-nazi and
white supremacist websites, where it means "eighth letter of the
alphabet twice", or "HH", which is shorthand for "Heil Hitler". The far
right revels in such silliness, and such website have that, and other
symbols like "14" (short for "Fourteen words", those words being "We
must secure the existence of our people and a future for white
children"), "RAHOWA" (Racial Holy War) and "ZOG" - Zionist Occupied
Government.
Well, I told you it was silly. Neo-Nazis aren't noted for their
brights. Frankly, I'm surprised that any of them can count to 14.
But those websites are public, mostly, and someone noticed the "88" and
realized what it meant. And a minor propaganda coup was thus averted.
It demonstrates another reason to keep the Nazis and their writings in
public view. There's a nest of neo-propaganda out there, most of it
from the Republican and Christian right, that reinvents Hitler for their
own purposes. We've gotten used to use Hitler's own words to disprove
lies told about liberals and seculars and their relation to Adolf
Hitler. The American right has gotten so poisonous that it no longer
seems incongruous to use Hitler as a measuring stick by which we compare
their honesty.
For example, a claim that gained currency during the nineties was that
Hitler was an atheist. A friend sent me a collection of quotes from
Hitler invoking his deity in a variety of ways, and of course, a glance
at any of his speeches will demonstrate that he was as capable of
calling on God to bless his endeavors as any American president.
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/Other_Voices/Quotes_from_the_right.htm
I've only had to use that list of quotes on Usenet once. Being able to
flourish a line like, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always
remain so" tends to put a quick quietus to assertions that Hitler killed
millions of people because he had no moral guidance from above. I'm
sure the vast majority of Christians would question Hitler's particular
interpretation; nonetheless, he was a Christian in his own mind.
Another fabrication about Hitler that got far more currency was that
Hitler was a socialist. Some right wing bozo wrote a book saying this,
based on nothing more than the fact that the name of Hitler's party was
"The National SOCIALIST Party". Going by this logic, Saddam Hussein is
a Republican because his personal army is called the Republican Guard.
Talk radio picked up this silliness, and as a result, people who don't
know what Hitler's views were or what socialist is will assure you, with
the placidity of those who utterly rely on their sources, that Hitler
was a socialist.
Of course, right wingers think that socialists, communists, leftists
and liberals are all pretty much the same thing, so it only induces a
moderate amount of strain on their brains to conclude that Hitler was a
socialist, a communist, a leftist, and a liberal.
Having access to Hitler's thoughts on such is a help. These excerpts
come from a three hour speech:
"The main plank in the National Socialist programme is to abolish the
liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of
humanity and to substitute therefore the folk community, rooted in the
soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood. A very simple
statement; but it involves a principle that has tremendous
consequences."
[...]
"I mean here that if Europe does not awaken to the danger of the
Bolshevic infection, then I fear that international commerce will not
increase but decrease, despite all the good intentions of individual
statesmen. For this commerce is based not only on the undisturbed and
guaranteed stability of production in one individual nation but also on
the production of all the nations together. One of the first things
which is clear in this matter is that every Bolshevic disturbance must
necessarily lead to a more or less permanent destruction of orderly
production. Therefore my opinion about the future of Europe is, I am
sorry to say, not so optimistic as Mr. Eden's. I am the responsible
leader of the German people and must safeguard its interests in this
world as well as I can. And therefore I am bound to judge things
objectively as I see them."
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hitler1.htmON NATIONAL SOCIALISM
AND WORLD RELATIONS
SPEECH DELIVERED IN THE GERMAN REICHSTAG ON JANUARY 30TH 1937
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Obviously, Hitler didn't like Socialists very much. It's one thing to
tell people that the history books show that once he got the Nuremberg
Laws passed, his first targets were Jews, Communists, Socialists and
Liberals (as with American right wingers, those groups were all one in
his mind), quite another to show what the man was saying as he targeted
these groups that American right wingers now try to pretend he
represented.
Now, of course, the American right has a new line of propaganda going:
Saddam Hussein is a threat to the world who must be stopped, and people
who don't agree are in the position that Neville Chamberlain was at
Munich, and there must be no room for appeasement of tyrants.
Of course, there's a few changes between the position that Neville
Chamberlain was in, and the one America is in. Chamberlain did not have
the power to reduce Germany to a radioactive ruin in 15 minutes, and
indeed had reason to believe that an attack on Germany would be a
military disaster. America isn't in that position.
But there is a similarity between the propaganda we're hearing from the
American right and the administration today, and that which was heard in
the dark days before the beginning of World War II.
From that same Hitler speech:
...(1) We look on Bolshevism as a world peril for which there must be
no toleration.
(2) We use every means in our power to keep this peril away from our
people.
(3) And we are trying to make the German people immune to this peril as
far as possible.
...Hence, just as I have been forced by economic circumstances to
depend on our own resources principally for the maintenance of my
people, so also I have been forced in the political sphere. And we
ourselves are not to blame for that.
...(5) It is impossible to make one nation or another responsible for
armaments or for limitation of armaments, but it is necessary to see
this problem as it really is.
(6) It is impossible to maintain peace among the nations so long as an
international irresponsible clique can continue their agitation
unchecked.
We're not responsible. There is an evil power pushing on us, making us
act preemptively to defend ourselves. Germany was just the innocent
victim of evil forces. Just like Dick Cheney is today.
The Bolsheviks made us do it.
The Czechs made us do it.
The Poles made us do it.
Saddam made us do it.
Propaganda never changes, but history is good for pointing out
propaganda when it occurs. Fortunately, the neo-Nazis have made it easy
to look for one's own self.
There was one final Hitler quote, this one from the morning of
September 1st, 1939.
"Polish regular officers fired on our territory. Since 5:45 a.m. we
have been returning fire."
It's not our fault. The other guy started it.
Hitler would recognize the American right. He would recognize this
administration. And he would recognize the rhetoric used by the two.
And he would approve.
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Woo Hoo Stevereno..
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I made a thorough study of Hitler - not actually complete.
One thing we should remember about him that Jamieson is completely oblivious about, is that very little of what Hitler said in public speeches can be used as an indication of his views - or his intellect for that matter.
In his private conversations with close associates and theoretical writings he admits and instructs that the masses are dumb and must be lied to and told what is likely to produce the desired effect.
His writings on propaganda directed towards the masses are very clear, intelligent and informative unlike the speaches themselves.
Speaches do sound like idiot's rumblings when examined by Ph.Ds, but they were not directed towards Ph.D. and they had great effect on their intended audience - including unducing orgasm in women.
If it was to Hitler's advantage to claim catholicism and other stuff, he would do so.
miko
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10bears, i look forward to the day we kick hawaii out of the union
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10bears, you are so ignorant on so many points you have tried to make that it is impossible to argue with you.
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Let me add 10bears:
If you believe the US is like Nazi Germany, it should be your duty to leave at once and begain an interational resistance to the US government from abroad.
You need to be true to your ideals and revolt against our evil governement. How can you sit idely by as your fellow countrymen travel down the path of Nazism? You should organise all the millions of other Americans that undoubtably stand where you do.
You are a true visionary. You need to publically anounce your fight against the US government and it's Nazi direction.
10bears you need to be strong for the rest of us. Please tell us all where we can meet and form a strong resistance. Lead us 10bears, we need a strong man like you.
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If you believe the US is like Nazi Germany,
LOL Nuke.. you funny guy.
By all means attack me Nuke.. Lets not agree or disagree with the points in the article.. I just posted it.. Jepp Jamison wrote it.. I think he's a good writer.
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Zepp Jaimeson:
"The far right revels in such silliness, and such website have that, and other symbols like "14" (short for "Fourteen words", those words being "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children"), "RAHOWA" (Racial Holy War) and "ZOG" - Zionist Occupied Government."
[/b]
Would that be the same Zepp Jaimeson that said:
Zepp Jaimeson:
"Putsch's first budget is out, and if you need any evidence that Putsch and his junta are a bunch of mean, greedy, short-sighted, stupid bastards, the proof is all there in black and white."
[/b]
Now who is it that "revels in such silliness" again?
Too funny.
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Fascinating truly... Miko tells us that only Hitler’s private un-recorded conversations show the real Hitler.
John can’t wait for the fiftieth state to be chucked outta the union.
Nuke doesn’t disagree with the article.. He’s mad at me for posting it.
Toad unsurprisingly, uses an out of context quote from another of Zepp’s essays as proof that this article must be somehow wrong. Neither that article or this one is BTW.
I got a question for ya. Back when you were skinning your heads, what was it about Slayer’s music that you liked? I could never get into that band.. Sounded like a bunch of noise to me.
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Yep it's propaganda all right. Looney anti-American weirdo propaganda.
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the only time my head was "skinned" was in marine corp boot camp, paris island 62
semper fi
44MAG
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All I have to say is that only two people on this BBS have ever called me a nazi...
...and you're one of them, 10Bears, and more than once.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Toad unsurprisingly, uses an out of context quote from another of Zepp’s essays as proof that this article must be somehow wrong.
Ah.. no, that's not it.
I just think it's pretty funny that the writer you so admire uses exactly the same writing tactics as those he vilifies. Oh, and btw, I could have snipped a quote like that from any one of 15 articles a google search turned up. It seems to be a standard tactic for him.
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Kieran... roger that. Ironic, eh? Considering his "enlightened" position in the political spectrum? :D
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Nuke doesn’t disagree with the article.. He’s mad at me for posting it.
10bears I only read your second post, I thought you wrote it and were posting your views. It might be helpful to list an author next time.
Also, where in my post did I say I was mad?
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Back around 1980, when BBSes - the local ASCII equivalents of Usenet - first showed up, extremists in the White Power and Nazi movements were delighted. At last, they had a cheap and - they thought - effective method of getting their message out to the masses. They were convinced that only the ignorance of the sheep prevented Hitler's vision from becoming America's future.
This caused considerable consternation. It was pretty horrific to contemplate that the computer - the cutting edge of humanity's technology and ingenuity, and the new incredible frontier in communication - was being perverted to such ends. More than one person was struck by the juxtaposition of brilliance and vileness.
Many of us quickly realized the best thing to do about the hate mongers was to let them put up their own boards and propagate to their heart's content.
Hrm, a third rate columnist? A half-assed website that looks thrown together by a 10 year old learning html? Unfortunately having read this and the last one you posted I doubt he's bright enough to see the irony.
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10Bears,
Hitler was the leader who believed in the Big Lie. Do you mean to say that you took what he said about being a Catholic during a public speach seriously?!
Do you really mean to compare Republicans and other members of the political right to neo-Nazis?
Would you take it amiss if we of the right compare the members of the left to Stalinists?
Regards, Shuckins
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Articles as 10bears shows the true desparation of the left....read on:
The Left has lost its way and
lost its voice
Camille Paglia
The language of leftism is out of date. It desperately
needs reconstruction and revitalisation, if the Left is
ever to regain its proper status as a voice of ethical
critique of materialistic modern society.
As a registered Democrat who voted for the fringe-left
Ralph Nader for President in 2000, I am well aware of
the decline in prestige and effectiveness of leftist
organisations since their high point in the 1960s. The
large demonstrations against globalisation two years
ago, for example, made scarcely a ripple in the US and
have already been forgotten. One problem is that too
many leftist periodicals are run by callow cliques whose
vaunted populism is a mask for snobbery.
Leftist analysis has been slow to adjust to the massive
expansion of the service sector after the Second World
War. In the US, salaries of skilled manual labourers
have long exceeded those of mid-level office staff.
Leftists consistently misinterpret mass media and new
technology, which they treat with paranoid theories of
manipulation and “commodification” coined by writers
schooled before the Second World War (before the birth
of television).
The communications revolution has blurred traditional
class lines. But the Left still doggedly invokes
paradigms from early industrialisation, applicable today
only to the Third World. It finds “oppression” under every
rock and reduces contemporary society to rote battles of
the “powerful” and the “powerless”.
The Left is wilfully blind to the enormous contributions
that capitalism has made to democracy and
individualism. Over the past two centuries capitalism
has raised the standard of living and enhanced the
health and life expectancy for untold millions in the West
and elsewhere. It has stimulated new ideas and
fostered free speech.
When they call for the redistribution of wealth, leftists
are endorsing an authoritarian system that, wherever it
has been tried, has resulted in economic stagnation
and a sapping of cultural energy. Such concentration of
power in the State creates its own tyrannical master
class. Without the profit motive, few are inclined to work
for long. The play of the market, rather than government
engineering, is more reliable for long-term job creation.
When jobs are varied and plentiful, ethnic and racial
tensions diminish.
Only a lunatic fringe on the far Left is still calling for
revolution, a smashing of the social order, but it must
be acknowledged how widespread that idea was in the
1960s. Most leftists do believe that, without them, the
naive proletariat would wallow for ever in ignorance and
slavery. Unless they are volunteering hands-on service
in blighted neighbourhoods, however, most leftists are
far removed from working-class life. Many are
wordsmiths — journalists or academics who run in
packs. Leftism has become wordplay — a refuge for
bourgeois intellectuals guilty about their comfort and
privilege.
The crisis of the Left was signalled 20 years ago by
academe’s retreat into post-structuralism — an elitist,
jargon-filled methodology practised by literati with scant
knowledge of history. In the US, liberalism too is
confused, alternating between a genteel
humanitarianism credulously craving government
programmes to an overtly Machiavellian power politics.
Because the Left has been programmatically
anti-business, it has been unable to reform the
business practices that generate prosperity in the West.
A strong, articulate Left could have roused public
resistance to the Marie Antoinette corporate culture of
the past 15 years, which climaxed in recent revelations
of monumental fraud.
As smaller companies were swallowed up in
transnational conglomerates, plant closings produced
superficial cost-cutting, rewarded by skyrocketing
compensation for top management. Boards of directors
went limp, while stockholders were helpless. An
honest, respected Left would have been well positioned
to render aid when and where it was needed.
The most radical task facing contemporary leftism is a
purgation and reclamation of its own rhetoric.
Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-385779,00.html
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i was raised by a old fasioned republican policman/ww2vet and followed his political lead till i screwed up and joined the navy befor finishing college.I ad to live with the "trash" and then work with the "workers".now i am a confirmed liberal democrat because as bad as the liberals are the conservitives are worse. guys here who spend their whole day posting on bbs on the company dime while others work thier way to a early grave. and have the audacity to pretend they have it hard. buying austentatious toys to brag about while 30 million people in our own country cant make 14 k a year ( and yea they work). racist to the core but will deny it all day long ( 2 beers and no black folk around and the n word flys) you have to be a lyin evil bastard to be a conservive these days sorry its the truth.
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With the exception of Miko or Shuckins none of you have addressed the points of the article.. You’ve either attacked me for posting it or the author...
For the record Kieran I’ve never called you a nazi. I’ve called some of your thinking leading down the road nazi like. If you supported Slobo you supported a real deal nazi.
Hitler was the leader who believed in the Big Lie. Do you mean to say that you took what he said about being a Catholic during a public speach seriously?!
No of course not but his speeches and writings are all we have to go on. Private conversations with associates don’t count if they were not recorded on tape. Like the article above states and I’ve seen it myself, is a movement by certain quarters of the hard right to separate as far as possible Hitler’s true religious beliefs from Christianity. But when we study his speeches we find numerous references to Catholism. Just like many politicians today, he used religion as a prop to stand behind and to gather the masses.
Do you really mean to compare Republicans and other members of the political right to neo-Nazis?
Rank and file Republicans of course not, but have you ever seen skinhead rallies KKK rallies, Council for Concerned Citizens, whatshisname the author for the “Turner Diaries” the American Bund, Serbian Unity Congress, and other hate groups all have a cousin, a link in the GOP yes.
Again what the above article points out in that a healthy society groups like this don’t really get much traction. But if something happens like a major war or depression nationalism starts to take hold. It’s their fault, it’s us against them.. we have to do a pre emptive strike now. We must protect our way of life and so on. For nationalism to take root you need an object of hate. Hate is always an easier emotion than acceptance and understanding. It doesn’t really matter who the object of hate is, it could be hate the gays or hate the minorities or hate the Arabs. Just as long as we have the “them” to hate the “us“.. are united.
If you agree with this, than you agree with the article above.
Would you take it amiss if we of the right compare the members of the left to Stalinists?
That wouldn’t be really fair, true liberalism or libertarianism celebrates the individual Stalin hardly had any use for this.
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Well, I don't bother to read stuff from any author who's best literary talent and strongest argument is making up second grade names for people.
Sorry, just not enough time. I prefer writers that can make a point with facts.... not by calling people names.
Just me I guess. So many articles, so little time.
As to the content of this one.. check Fatty's post again. He pretty much nailed it.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, I don't bother to read stuff from any author who's best literary talent and strongest argument is making up second grade names for people.
---snip----
Seems like a good match for Anne Coulter.....Anti Anne. Both use the same type of propagandish style and inviction.
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10Bears: Fascinating truly... Miko tells us that only Hitler’s private un-recorded conversations show the real Hitler.
:mad:
Where does that come from? Who gives you the right to put crap into my mouth? Did I ever mentioned his private un-recorded conversations? I thought any person who is interested in Hitler and not an ignorant dolt could go to Amazon, punch in his name and get Hitler's TableTalk (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1929631057/qid=1030715547/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4050693-9224742?v=glance&s=books) - 800 pages hardcover of his nightly conversations with close friends and secretaries recoded carefully by two stenographers - it is commonly known that practically every word of his was recorded and those records must be somewhere, right?. I was looking for them for a while (in English) and in October 2000 that one finally came out.
Also, "Mein Kampf" while not private is clearly not directed towards general public but towards his party comrades as a action manual. Hitler gives advice that he expect to really work - so there is a minimum of propaganda there. If german people in 30s really read the "most published" book that everyone owned, they would have seen what he realy thinks of them and what his speeches are worth - he is making absolutely no secret there.
But no, you could not be bothered to look or ask me where did I get my info - you just assumed I make stuff up.
By the way - I do oppose Iraqi invason and do find a lot of the analogies with european history compelling. While I do not believe Bush and republicans evil, I consider them misguided.
Another by the way - I do not make a claim that Hitler was or was not an atheist - just that the autor has no clue about Hitler because he is using the source that Hitler himself admitted as mostly lies and propaganda.
As for the author - he is obviously an anti-cristian socialist and any one with half a brain will see it from this writing - he attempts to disguise it but very thinly:
Do not believe that Hussein is republican because his guard is called Republican Guard - everything republican is good and pure and never makes war and Hussein is Evil! He cannot be a republican! (By the way, he is still preferable to our republicans which are really nazis - let's keep Hussein and get rid of Bush instead!)
Do not believe that Hitler was a socialist just because his party was called Socialist and his economic policies were pure socialist! We all know that socialists are good and warm and cuddly and Hitler was Evil! He could not have been a socialist!
What, Hitler said he was a christian? Sure, we believe him. We all know that christians are mean and evil and all xenocidal maniacs! Of course Hiter was a christian!
And by the way, our republicans are christian right and must be nazis themselves.
I bet that if find out which "right wing bozo wrote a book saying this, based on nothing more than the fact that the name of Hitler's party was "The National SOCIALIST Party". ", I will find that the same book that the bozo examined his socialist economic policies, not just the party label as a basis for his opinion.
While I am an atheist and libertarian, this kind of attempt to slander catholicism, bash christianity, equate republicans with nazis and whitewash socialism is disgusting to me!
miko
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I don't read Coulter either.
There's too many good, intelligent, skillful journalists out there to bother with second-rate hacks.
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BAH!! One more left vs. right argument that will go nowhere nor convince anyone to change their point of view. Many have you have gone out of your way to call me names this week and- Well, I don't need this. I have a full weekend lined up- This afternoon I'm cruising to Yosemite to scale El Capitan, Saturday I'm going skydiving and Sunday I'm going scuba diving with great white sharks. I'll see ya Monday and does anybody have some chum I can borrow?
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Elfenwolf...be carefull
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Towd do you really believe stereotypes like that? How sad.
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Elfen- just make sure you use your skydiving gear for rock climbing, your scuba diving gear for skydiving and your rock climbing gear for swimming with the Great Whites.
-SW
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10Bears:
Answer 2 questions for me.
1. (YES or NO) Is Iraq in direct violation of the cease fire that they signed before the U.N. that was the cause for cessation of hostilities vs. Iraq?
2. In your opinion, why does Iraq refuse to allow U.N. (NOTE: U.N., as opposed to U.S.) WMD inspection teams into Iraq? Keep in mind that Iraq's failure to allow such inspection teams into Iraq is a major cause for the continuing import/export/trade restrictions levied against Iraq by the U.N.
Mike/wulfie
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sorry but if alot of people are stereotypical ( and i believe they are) the use a stereotype is appropriate.
the left and right are getting further apart. we all know the reasons. i wont rant . but i was born into the conservative side and lived it till i was 23. then i opted out, to many lies and half truths and screwing people for fun . just not my cup of tea.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
to many lies and half truths and screwing people for fun .
LOL, you just described the 1993 to 2001 Presidency!
BTW, I'm registered as an Independent.
Cobra
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yea talk about propaganda, what was the final figure for cash spent on the "investigation" about white water that garnered one blow job? hint its in the 10s of millions.
the republicans spent our tax dollars by the millions for 8 years trying to unseat a president that actualy won the position.
you support um if you want.
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So, TOWD.....if the shoe was on the other foot, you saying the same thing wouldnt have been done?
If thats what you think, you are a fool. Politicians been doing the same thing for years no matter which party they are with. Nobody ever takes the blame for the bad stuff and they always take the credit for the good.
Amazing to see so many sheep in this nation blindly following one party or the other. You have a mind, use it. Dont just vote the party line. As long as folks keep doing that, politics in this country will never change.
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Man, think how much $$$ could have been saved if he just told the truth the first time! ;)
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Hiya Wulfie.. this is really not an Iraq thread but I’ll try to answer.
1. (YES or NO) Is Iraq in direct violation of the cease fire that they signed before the U.N. that was the cause for cessation of hostilities vs. Iraq?
The short answer is yes however since the U.S. often ignores the mandates of the U.N., why should any other country? Saddam has already said he would allow inspectors back in the country, but the current U.S. administration has already said it didn’t matter that Saddam had to go anyway.
2. In your opinion, why does Iraq refuse to allow U.N. (NOTE: U.N., as opposed to U.S.) WMD inspection teams into Iraq? Keep in mind that Iraq's failure to allow such inspection teams into Iraq is a major cause for the continuing import/export/trade restrictions levied against Iraq by the U.N.
After weapons inspector Scott Ritter declared most if not all WMD had been destroyed the sanctions were no where near being lifted. That was a double cross. They never had any intention of lifting sanctions as long as Saddam or any of his sons were in power. Right now to avert war, Saddam is asking the U.N. the E.U. anyone who’ll listen, to bring over weapons inspectors. The E.U. is seriously considering it which could complicate our attack plans.
But.. like I’ve said on another thread Wulfie, I’m on the bus now with regard to invading Iraq. Once we Americans have control of Iraq, and Saudi oil.. We rule the world. Not me the Bushes do.. The Euros can pay double for petrol for not supporting us. If it turns into a toejamstorm.. that’s grounds for impeachment. If you notice, combat veterans are a bit luke warm on this attack. They want to support President Bush... they just think junior been watching too many Hollywood movies.
The real reason for the attack as you must know is about oil.. the propaganda they are using to justify this war is the same the Germans used in 1938.. hence, the article I posted above.
Man, think how much $$$ could have been saved if he just told the truth the first time!
Gosh Toad! why didn’t President Clinton think about that! You mean to say the corporate right-wing slime machine would’ve turned off it’s spew hose had Clinton simply told the truth about his girlfriend? Golly!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Seems like a good match for Anne Coulter.....Anti Anne. Both use the same type of propagandish style and inviction.
I wonder how much energy would be released in the Anne/Anti-Anne explosion that would surely result if they ever met?
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Probably would have made a big difference if he had and he had done it right from the start.
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The U.S. ignores the U.N.?
Give me an example of the U.S. 'ignoring' a U.N. *resolution* (note that this is very different than disagreeing with a proposed resolution before it is passed).
Ritter claimed that "most if not all WMD had been destroyed"? That's funny - it's almost exactly the opposite of what he did claim. He resigned his position because he felt the weapons inspectors were being given the 'run-around' by Iraq and that the U.N. and certain Nations were not 'backing up' the weapons inspectors at all despite these problems.
As for 'it's about oil' - maybe, but not from the U.S. or the U.K.'s point of view. The main 'oil' issue is that certain Nations stand to make big $$$ working in Iraq in 'the oil business', and the U.S. and the U.K. are not on this list. Not surprisingly, these same Nations have done their best for over 10 years to get the sanctions lifted when they shouldn't, and have done their best to 'look like friends of Mr. Hussein'.
Mike/wulfie
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Good article 10Bears if the author were to include 'extreme' in his descriptions of the 'Republican and Christian Right'. The points are well made if I interpret it that way. If he meant most Republicans and Chritians that are right of center, then he paints with too broad a brush. Good article otherwise, thanks.
I've been wondering if our saber rattling against Sadaam Hussein isn't a way to take the heat off the Bush administration's (alleged, possible) ties to the Enron, WorldCom issues. Nothing like going to war to get the support of one's own nation.
Some points to ponder for those that believe Sadaam is evil:
Is Sadaam only going 'crazy' now or has he always been 'crazy'?
He had plenty of chemical weapons before his war with Kuwait. Why would he attack us? He knows full well that we would retaliate with our own WMD to any country that attacks us with such. He's too busy trying to save and preserve his own life that I seriously doubt he'd try anything so stupid. He may be 'crazy', but he isn't stupid.
We've had worse REAL threats (using the 'Sadaam will attack the US as soon as he gets the chance.' school of thought.)
Both the USSR and China has WMD. Why haven't they attacked us yet?
Don't believe everything you read. Believe it or not, a lot of the articles one reads is fabricated (propaganda). It's what nations do to each other to gain popular support.
Regards,
wSNPR
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'Evil' and 'Crazy' are not the same things.
Yes, both Russia and China have nuclear weapons. They also aren't ruled by dictators - i.e. no one person in either of those Nations can use said weapons 'on a whim'.
The major concern here is that nuclear weapons allow an aggressive brutal dictator to 'get away' with a great deal more.
When Iraq invaded Kuwait, there was significant opposition worldwide to forming a Coalition which had the sole intent of liberating Kuwait.
Could you imagine the worldwide opposition to countering a similar invasion if it was known that Iraq had deployable nuclear weapons?
Comparing the arguments for replacing the leadership of Iraq to 1930's and later Nazi propoganda is pure idiocy. The 2 situations differ in so many ways it makes me wonder if either of you have any knolwedge of history whatsoever.
Mike/wulfie
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toad are you suggesting that they ( the conservative elements of the republican party) would have given up the witch hunt without finnaly finding somthing to try to get him to resign? if you are your wrong and you know it.
My suggestion is that if a party is corrupt enough to try to over throw the government aginst the will of the people by any means short of military arms it is a bad organization dominated by evil self serving men. just that and its plenty if you want to allie yourself with such men on the grounds that they dont lie on the stand or play around on their wives you are a fool and have fallen for the most base sort of deception.
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Originally posted by wulfie
'Evil' and 'Crazy' are not the same things.
Yes, both Russia and China have nuclear weapons. They also aren't ruled by dictators - i.e. no one person in either of those Nations can use said weapons 'on a whim'.
The major concern here is that nuclear weapons allow an aggressive brutal dictator to 'get away' with a great deal more.
When Iraq invaded Kuwait, there was significant opposition worldwide to forming a Coalition which had the sole intent of liberating Kuwait.
Could you imagine the worldwide opposition to countering a similar invasion if it was known that Iraq had deployable nuclear weapons?
Comparing the arguments for replacing the leadership of Iraq to 1930's and later Nazi propoganda is pure idiocy. The 2 situations differ in so many ways it makes me wonder if either of you have any knolwedge of history whatsoever.
Mike/wulfie
It seems that we were always told to fear the 'Commies' because they wouldn't hesitate to use their WMD on us because they were the 'crazy' ones.
The United States has always relied on having an 'enemy'.
The 'savages' that were the native American Indian tribes to which we broke every (it seems) treaty we every signed with them. ( I wonder why we have a saying of 'Indian giver' and not 'White man giver.' )
The 'evil' Spaniards.
The 'evil' Mexicans.
The 'evil' communists.
The 'evil' drug cartels.
The 'evil' Iranians.
The 'Axis of Evil.'
The 'evil' Sadaam Hussein.
We have always used propaganda to suit our needs, and we will continue to do so. Don't buy into everything you read hook, line, and sinker. I do know more about history than you suppose I do. Don't be so pompous.
Regards,
wSNPR
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Gosh Toad! why didn’t President Clinton think about that! You mean to say the corporate right-wing slime machine would’ve turned off it’s spew hose had Clinton simply told the truth about his girlfriend? Golly!
Clinton 1996 Contributors: Global Petroleum Inc. Paine Webber Group Inc. Chrysler Smith Barney Inc. Entergy Corporation Blue Cross/Blue Shield Walt Disney Productions Sprint At&T/McCaw Raytheon Company Goldman Sachs
Demo 1996 Soft Money Contributors: Phillip Morris! RJ Reynolds!
Gore 2000 Contributors: Ernst & Young, Citigroup Inc, Viacom Inc, Time Warner, BellSouth Corp, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co,
Demo 2000 Soft Money Contributors: Enron and WorldCom! Just to name 2…
Although many of these listed gave to the Republicans as well and some of them more to Reps, it is time to stop thinking of corporations as evil right wing fat cats. The views of corporations are made up of the full political spectrum of the people that populate them.
Corporate right-wing slime machine? please :rolleyes:
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Think what you like. I'll do the same, OK?
;)
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by all means never wanted to change your mind. just sick of hearing a (popularly elected as opposed to what we have now)president insulted over and over ad nausium as the rusult of a attempted goverment overthrow foiled. you approve of it its your decision.
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ldv, 10bears..mt.. when you guys grow up you are gonna be so embarassed by all this.
The fanatic left and the fanatic right have one thing in common... they both have to scour the far corners of the internet to find articles to suport their silly viewpoints. They are allways unhappy because when they find said article and smuggly bring it out as "proof"... They are laughed at. And rightly so.
it really is that simple.
oh.. and I don't care what you call a government so long as it doesn't interfere in my life too much.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
ldv, 10bears..mt.. when you guys grow up you are gonna be so embarassed by all this.
The fanatic left and the fanatic right have one thing in common... they both have to scour the far corners of the internet to find articles to suport their silly viewpoints. They are allways unhappy because when they find said article and smuggly bring it out as "proof"... They are laughed at. And rightly so.
it really is that simple.
oh.. and I don't care what you call a government so long as it doesn't interfere in my life too much.
lazs
Just wondering why you felt I fell into the same category as ldv and 10bears? Honestly curious... really.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
of hearing a (popularly elected as opposed to what we have now)president insulted over and over ad nausium as the rusult of a attempted goverment overthrow foiled.
What part of the Electoral College process do you still fail to understand?
Characterizing the investigation of Clinton as an "attempted overthrow foiled" must bring tears of laughter to folks in countries that have witnessed actualy attempts (and some successful ones at that) to overthrow a government.
You'll get another shot in a little over two years. Go work for the candidate of your choice.. channel that angst.
Good luck!
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Thx Wsnpr for picking up the sword but be careful, if they can’t dispute the points in the article they’ll trash the author or trash the person who posted it.
I get a kick stirring the rednecks from time to time this article was designed to do just that :) Got another one today from the Guardian about the Grand Chess Game going to post later.
Laz when I grow up?.. Back when I was 17 and worked on a cattle ranch I was a stanch Nixon supporter... The older I get the less I believe in anything the government says.
Although many of these listed gave to the Republicans as well and some of them more to Reps
Heheh Holden McGroin master of understatement. Do you happen to know the ratio between Dem and Rep?.. I do.
it is time to stop thinking of corporations as evil right wing fat cats.
Okay if you say so.. do you mind if I think of them as Globalist corporations bent on One World Order with no need for voters or democracy?.
Corporate right-wing slime machine? please
When they turned the spew hose on John McCain, do you really think that happened in a vacuum?.. it’s not just Demos they slime. I expect they’ll be turning it on for Bret Scollcroft, Collin Powel, Dick Army, Henry Kissinger any day now.
What part of the Electoral College process do you still fail to bla bla bla
Forget it Vador, standard misdirection debate tactic from Toad.. He wants you to get to “C” before understanding “A” and “B”
A: General election
B: vote count too close to call, state Supremes order a manual recount, (fed Supremes stop the recount in effect giving the electoral votes to Bush)
C: Florida's 23 electoral votes go to Bush.
If your not paying attention Toad can wield a good argument as long as your not thinking about “B” (I learned that in high school debating class)
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Originally posted by 10Bears
A: General election
B: vote count too close to call, state Supremes order a manual recount, (fed Supremes stop the recount in effect giving the electoral votes to Bush)
C: Florida's 23 electoral votes go to Bush.
I remember it differently
A. General election
B. Media crowns Gore before the poll are closed
C. A machine count declares Bush a winner, but a vote is very close, within a margin of error.
D. A mandatory (machine) recount (as required by law), confirms the original result, a very narrow Bush victory. There is no reason to claim that a machine recount favors either of the contenders.
E. we are waiting for absentee ballots, but they are expected to widen Bush's lead.
F. Gore start legal trickery by asking for selective, and this time manual recounts performed by devout democrats behind closed doors. The actual ballot does not count anymore, the "voter's intent" does.
(http://www.raf303.org/images/dimpledbalot.jpg)
G. Even with this blatant attempt to manufacture Gore votes, but dismissing large lots of absentee votes and manually "counting" others (but only some of them), they run out of time as specified by election law.
H. FSC, (7 libs vs 1 rep if I remember correctly), jumps in and extends the deadline for selective, manuals votes.
I. The Supremes order (5 to 4) the FCS to justify their decision, of STFU.
J. FSC declines to respond, the democratic vote factory runs out of time as the Fl legislature prepares for naming the electors (as prescribed by the election law)
Bush has won the day one, the rest was just an attempt of a switcheroo.
Bush sucks big time :( , but still he is not Gore.
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For the record Kieran I’ve never called you a nazi. I’ve called some of your thinking leading down the road nazi like. If you supported Slobo you supported a real deal nazi.
Oh. I see the difference. :rolleyes: Why even suggest I supported "Slobo", as you put it? Are you trying to insinuate some connection? And... weren't you the one that posted the nice WWII era picture with a message for me, using some nice invective in it? Is this what you are looking for when you want debate?
No, 10Bears, you want people to address the points you try to make, yet you make statements that are half-true or completely false. Take your last assessment of the election- you blatantly (and I suspect intentionally) left out much of what happened (though the record was accurately set straight by Mietla). Much of what you say does this- like a Democratic recount it is selective in target. This makes anything you type highly suspect.
I especially love when you cut-n-paste your "walls of diatribe". There is no reason to respond to it because it is mostly nonsense. Want me to say something negative to retort? I could, but I couldn't make the author of most of the material you print look more foolish than they themselves have already.
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10bears.. you really have to stop reading all the lefty hate stuff... mielta has it as it happened. Toad simply pointed out how the process works. He rightly pointed out that there is an ec in the U.S. Does someone have to point out to you that the supreme court takes precedence over state courts? They soimply stopped the endless debate over what the word "is" means.. That is why the left loved the Clinton administration so much... The truth was shown to be just one big grey area.
What part of the election did you find unfair? The only thing that seemed unfair in my view was to have selected counties recounted and to try to judge "intent"... I certainly do not wnat someone discarding my vote because he feels that what i voted for and my "intent" were two different things.
lazs
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Originally posted by 10Bears
If your not paying attention Toad can wield a good argument as long as your not thinking about “B” (I learned that in high school debating class)
Well, actually it's a real good argument as long as 10Bears doesn't misrepresent B as something that DID happen when it DIDN'T happen the way he stated it.
Make sense? No? How about this then:
Mietla, thanks for saving me a lot of time by refreshing 10Bears memory with the way it actually did happen.
And actually, what I was addressing was the never ending "popular vote" ploy.
The Donkeys played the Elephants for the National Title. The game was close all the way, but the Elephants managed to win it 21-20.
The Donkeys spent the next 4 years loudly telling everyone within earshot that they should have gotten the title and the trophy.
Because, after all, while they did in fact LOSE on points, they gained the most yards on offense. :D
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Originally posted by 10Bears
they’ll trash the author or trash the person who posted it.
For the first part, there's no need. He does a fine job of trashing himself. What could anyone add? As Fatty pointed out, the irony probably escapes Jamieson; it's a self-portrait.
For the second part, don't point that finger at me. I don't do ad hominem.
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As soon as some of you stop looking for the truth from governments and men, then and only then will you find it.
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I have a picture of a monk sitting atop the peak of a mountain, back turned to me, and I can see the sun rising over his shoulder.
And his butt crack is showing.
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Can someone invoke Godwin's Law here?
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I dunno... I was the first to mention nazi, but it was in response to another thread where the individual more or less called me one...