Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Sabre on August 31, 2002, 02:15:00 PM
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Plane set is as announced, except that I did not include the Fw190 Dora. However, available airfields has been greatly expanded, as it was just too time consuming to set it up as I originally had planned. Remember to stear clear of those Knight fields in Europe, as ack lethality is maxed out. Have fun, and sorry about the delay in getting this loaded up. As always, post any problems here.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Just out of curiousity why was the 190D ommited? My only concern is that people might shy away from the Axis side this week because of a what might be a perceived allied advantage. Other than that question looks like a great setup, thanks for all the work Sabre I really appreciate it, the CT is more and more becoming my home in AH.
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The 190D was omitted most likely because it entered combat in Sept 1944 while this setup is supposed to be July 1944.
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Ahh thanks Chunder, I didn't realize there that the planeset was based on a specific month in '44. I thought it was a more generic 1944 setup. Thanks
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No 190-D9 but no spit XIV either. I guess if i fly in the CT i'll have to stick to my 1942 spit IX in a 1944 setup......
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thrila, pst dude come hear.... we go in the back whear nobody can hear us....hey man it cool by me if ya like the spit just dont say so out load like that it put's people off.............:)
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Yeah Sabre, thanks for the work. Flew last night for Axis and didn't see any Allied advantage. I was only able to stay an hour and my butt wall was pleasantly full by the end of it.:D
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Originally posted by thrila
I guess if i fly in the CT i'll have to stick to my 1942 spit IX in a 1944 setup......
Spit9 is a great plane in any time! 109 & 190 had only choice - run or die :cool:
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Why would the Allieds have any advantage in terms of plane performance? The 109G-10 is more enough of a match for any Allied fighter (P-51D included) in the hands of a decent 109 pile-it (like that hblair guy).
I'm disappointed that the Me262 is present (tho I'm glad it's at one base only) and the Spitfire XIV is not included when it was becoming the main Spitfire in July 44. No offence, but this seems like a decision made to cater to the anti-Spit crowd. :(
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Right.
I think it's a good idea to put in the Spit14, but leave the Fw190D-9 out. I'm pretty much interested how a fight between multiple G-10s and multiple Spit14s would fare.
If Spit14 is left out due to balance, the Me-262 should be, too.
Having the Spit14 unperked just seems like it would be a horrible disadvantage to the LW, but come to think of it, the CT is pretty much different atmosphere from the MA. There aren't gonna be just hoardes of people in Spit14s ganging up on smaller countries.
The numbers would be well balanced... and though Spit14 is a excellent plane, not many people know how to fly it well. It's pretty much a death trap for rookie pilots who choose it because it seems to look like an advanced "Spitfire" (,when in truth, it's more of a 109G-10 than a "Spitfire" :D ).
So my reasoning is,
1) I feel the older machines of the LW is capable of fighting against the Spit14 to a certain degree...
2) The pilots of the CT are self-controlling folk, so it won't be all Spit14s around...
3) Historically disadvantaged match-ups were common in CT, it would add to immersion.
4) The level of disadvantage to the LW by the Allies getting a Spit14 isn't all that serious - it's not as if Bf109E-4s are fighting Spit9s.
5) I'm wanting to see multiple Spit14s in the air :) Fighting in a regular manner, instead of fighting timid & shy, MA-style.
6) The LW has a G-10 which performs closer to a K-4 than a real G-10 :) LW has good machines, too.
........
My vote is include the Spit14, leave D-9 out. :)
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109 & 190 had only choice - run or die
Ehh, yeah right, ok, sure, whatever you say :D
LW will win in the CT, Dora or no Dora, we always do ;)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
LW will win in the CT, Dora or no Dora, we always do ;)
You are right most probably. :) CT men more scrambling than taking fields and wins conditions are better for LW in this case.
Allied goal is to take all the Axis bases to win a reset. Axis goal is to prevent that and, if possible, to push the Allies back into the English Channel.
But it doesn't matter, right? ;)
BTW, Spitfire IX is really deadly craft in skilled hands. No, I don't mean myself, but sometimes even I feel that I can kill anyone who meet and I do it :)
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This is my desire for the Spitfire Mk XIV:
To be able to use it in its historical context at some point.
Just to be able to use it. You can't just use it in the MA and the one time I've seen it free in the CT the Me262 was priced at 2 perk points and two out of three Luftwaffe aircraft were Me262s.
The fact of the matter is that a 1944 Merlin Spitfire had performance closer to the AH Spitfire Mk XIV than to the AH Spitfire Mk IX. The Spitfire Mk XIV was in squadron service in January, 1944 and had recorded its first kill by March, 1944.
The only natural opponent of the Spitfire Mk XIV is not the Me262. The Spitfire Mk XIV engaged in much more combat with Bf109s and Fw190s than the Me262.
In the current CT setup the Me262 is free (that it was only available from one base was not apparent, I guess I got lucky on base selection).
The anti-Spitfire bias of this game and community is quite frusterating to Spitfire fans. We're told to take a 1942 Spitfire and feel lucky that we're getting that much. We're told that the 1942 Spitfire performs just as good as a 1944 Spitfire. We're constantly insulted and ridiculed.
Spitfires really are horrible things aren't they. Why, its too bad Reginald Mitchell held on against his cancer as long as he did, isn't it?
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Originally posted by Karnak
Just to be able to use it. You can't just use it in the MA and the one time I've seen it free in the CT the Me262 was priced at 2 perk points and two out of three Luftwaffe aircraft were Me262s.
In the current CT, the Spit 9 is perked 3 points and Me262 is free. Wanna take a guess which LW plane you see the most in the CT?
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Dunno about you, but when I was just in the CT I saw mostly 109F4s with some 190A5s and A8s mixed in... never saw a 262 and only saw two 109G10s.
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I don't have a strong opinion about which specific planes should or shouldn't be enabled. But this is one of my favorite CT setups so far -- so IMO somebody did something right.
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Sancho, you gotta be joking, The Spit IX is perked???
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BTW, Spitfire IX is really deadly craft in skilled hands. No, I don't mean myself, but sometimes even I feel that I can kill anyone who meet and I do it
You're a good pilot Oleg, no doubt about that. However, just to point out... the Spitfire IX is deadly no matter it's a good pilot or not, very easy to fly and get kills in although a bit slow in level flight.
Karnak... Spitfires really are horrible things aren't they. Why, its too bad Reginald Mitchell held on against his cancer as long as he did, isn't it?
Now you're just being plain out silly, doubt anyone thinks that. Spitfire is a beutyfull plane, one of the best looking planes ever produced.
You say you feel "left out" (or similair) because the Spit 9 is the slow of the 9's, well, then I guess you know what some LW people feel like about their porked planes (that have been proven porked and badly porked too).
Btw, is the spit 9 perked in the CT now? It shouldn't be... coming from an LW guy that's gotto mean something...
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Wilbus,
The only problem with German fighters that I am certain of is that the Ta152H-1 is too slow, climbs too slowly and accelerates worse than it should and the Fw190F-8 is missing loadout options that it should have.
I have seen massive numbers of whines about the Fw190D-9, Fw190A-5 and Bf109G-10, but I cannot be certain of their validity, and in the case of the D-9 and G-10 I find them laughable.
To compare that to the RAF situation in this game is mockery at best and cynical opportunism at worst.
The Luftwaffe fans can take off in late 1944 stuff whenever they so desire and nobody will whine at them when they score victories.
In contrast, the RAF fan must take off in a 1942 aircraft (that is fudged just enough to give anti-Spit people the ammo they need to insist that it is a 1945 aircraft) and be whined at when he scores a victory.
The comments I see on this board and in the game make my comment about Mitchell seem quite representative of the opinions many players in AH have. Talk to Soviet or Mandoble about the Spitfire and it quickly becomes apparent that they think the world would be better off if the aircraft had never been designed or built. Luftwaffe fans complain about some of the characterizations people use against them (justifiably so ), but that all pales in comparison with the venom spewed at people who happen to like the Spitfire.
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For what it's worth, I think the Spit in all its renditions is a beautiful and fun airplane. The Spit IX was not supposed to be perked, and I've asked Pyro to unperk it. As for the absence of the Spit XIV, I left it out because I didn't think it was necessary. The Allies have a rich and varied plane set, and I picked and choose to try to balance things. The inclusion of the 262 (which should have been perked) was done not for technological balance but to try to balance the sides number wise. As the numbers have been very even everytime I've logged on, it all seems to be working okay.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Changing human nature is somthing that simply is not going to happen. No matter how we analize it, Justify it, paint it, Their will always be dweeb planes in any flight sim, and IN AH the Spit will always be perhaps the dweabest of them all. The simpl fact of the mater is it is a superlative aircraft, one of the finest fighters of it's time and one of the most historicaly signafant aircraft of all time. All of its strengths are magnified out of historical proportion in AH due to the fact that the way 90% of all engagemnts in AH play right to it's strengths.
Should we have another Spit in AH one that was more common in 44, yes I beleave in the interest of fairness we should.
Do I think we nead one? For the CT yes and for special events, even the MA, I realy dont think more will fly the spit if we get another later model, it will probably draw the same crowd.
Personaly I find the spit extreamy easy to get kills in, so much so that I feal bad flying it, does that mean I think less of people who do?, perhaps in the moment, but if I sit and think about it for a minute I realise how stuip it all is.
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Hey speaking of cheese and dweebs, some idiots have been milkrunning for awhile and the germans have a pretty good foothold in england. Can you reset for us? We are planning some pretty interesting bomber ops for this evening, and I am sure the lw guys would love to counter them, if the map stays as it is, we will probably just scrap it and fly spitfires all night. I am going to post this in the other new thread as well.
No offense to the morons snagging bases when nobody is flying, just messes up some interesting flights later. If it were any other map it would not matter, we just want to try and replicate a 'real' sortie over europe ala 1944. Not some mythical 262s take england crap.
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Then please remove the Spit IX from this setup and give us the more representative of the time period Spit XIV. :p This would have been a perfect opportunity to fly the plane in its natural environment against historical adversaries and away from the "it's a perk plane! gang it!" mentality of the MA La-7s.
I can add some extra punctuation and capitalization to make this a whine if necessary. ;)
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okay, things are worse. I thought I was a fool when I took a neutral base but in this case it wasnt me so I am gonna squeak. Particularly when the ack is set so high.
Can you get this reset before 10? FLight is disabled for allies.
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I've wondered since I've been here (not long, 8 months) why the Spit is considered a "Dweeb's Plane". People gripe and moan about all the Spits in the air, but if you spend a little time on the score pages, you may find the Spit isn't quite as deadly and easy to kill in as people claim.
Spit IX vs 109F4 - 134 Kills to 102
Spit IX vs 109G2 - 142 Kills to 101
Spit IX vs 109G6 - 282 Kills to 249
Spit IX vs 109G10 - 696 Kills to 669
Spit IX vs 190A5 - 328 Kills to 424
Spit IX vs 190A8 - 377 Kills to 436
Spit IX vs 190D9 - 545 Kills to 814
To me, the Dweeb rides are the glorious low production fantasy planes that have monster guns and saw very little action. The Spitfire is not in that category; it has its weaknesses - the stats show it. Everyone's got their favourite aircraft, and everyone else has an opinion of it. We all know the saying about opinions.
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I love this setup. But, unlike other folks, I have seen *many* jets when i was online. Many is too much.
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Chanter, stats are highly subjective, a lot of newbees fly plnaes like the Spit and the P 51 and the N1K2-J doing some not so smart things like trying to up from fields while beng vulched, being somthing of a Vulchers at times my self I can tell you from personal experance that most of my Vulches are Spits ,La 7's and N1K2-J's.
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Sabre
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I am not asking for the Spitfire Mk XIV to be added to the current setup. I would like some future CT setup where the Spitfire Mk XIV is enabled, but doesn't have to go up against hordes of Me262s because, quite frankly, fighting Me262s in the Spitfire Mk XIV is very much the same as fighting Me262s in the Spitfire F.Mk IX.
Thanks.
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Fighting 262's in any prob plane is pretty much impossible, still haven't flown this setup but I can understand that's it's frustrating to see loads of them.
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Hmm.
The Spit XIV was in service at this time, so it should be there.
Now personally I don't fly the 262, to me it's the ultimate in boredom, I don't think it's a dweeb ride because you do have to have some skill to be effective with
it, evidentaly I lack that skill.
Now people complain about the 262s, and how they can vulch a field, and their speed makes them unfair...................
It's about the same as P-47s vulching Japanese fields last week. The P-47 vs the Zeke is about the same differnce in top end speed, and firepower. as say the P-51 and 262. Also I am no spit expert but I did do a little reaserch on the Spit XIV yesterday, it seems there were 3 squadrons active at this time of the war. They were based in the UK to counter the V-1 threat from France.
So if it's added which I don't care if it is, are all you guys complaining about the 262 going to keep your Spit 14s over Blighty??
Of course not. Your gonna fly that Spit right over the nearest LW plane and blow his brains out. So why complain if some guy wants to fly the 262, over to an Allied airfield?
If you guys see a group of 262s it's a crime, but it's never a crime when your best ride is out in force against inferior planes?
Cmon give it a rest..................
If you dissagree with this post and want to take it out on me personally, I'll be the dweebo in the 109, or 190 Thursday night.:D
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Originally posted by Karnak
Sabre ,
I am not asking for the Spitfire Mk XIV to be added to the current setup. I would like some future CT setup where the Spitfire Mk XIV is enabled, but doesn't have to go up against hordes of Me262s because, quite frankly, fighting Me262s in the Spitfire Mk XIV is very much the same as fighting Me262s in the Spitfire F.Mk IX.
Thanks.
Roger that, Karnak. When I run this again, I've already decided to include the Spit-XIV instead of the Spit-IX. I just don't want to change mid-week. As for "hordes" of 262's, I didn't see but one all weekend, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. On retrospect, the 262 should have been perked in this set up, as the map didn't allow me to place it as far back (but not too far) from the front as I'd have liked. Perks should have been reset for everyone too, like they used to be. I've e-mailed Pyro about both of these things, but don't know if he'll be able to fix them before the week is done. Thanks to everyone for their particiapation and feedback, and please understand: we try not to mess with a set up midweek unless it's obvious that it's horribly broken.
Sabre
CT Staff
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It's ok Sabre. It's just a matter of true Spit fans (those that really enjoy the plane and reading about it outside of just fighting with it because it's a great lil' furball plane) getting fed up with the anti-Spit sentiment on the boards and the game. A 109 fan can take the best 109 in the game and fly it in the MA free without a gang me icon. The 190s have the Dora, tho their Ta-152 is perked (wrongly, IMO, but that's another thread.) Pony drivers got their P-51D, and the speed freaks have their La-7. They can all fly in the MA and have a ball with their plane. A Spit fan can't take the best Spitfire in the MA without paying for it in 60 perks and overzealous gangbangers. The CT is where we can get away from that and fly the planes historically and in a "nicer" environment. So when a setup that's perfect for the Spit XIV (it wouldn't overbalance the Allieds the 190G-10 and Me262 takes care of that, you've got plenty of Pony and Jug fans so that it wouldn't be all Spit XIVs, and it's a western Europe front), us Spit fans get all excited! Then the poor maligned Spit XIV isn't included, and we feel shafted or think once again, the Anti-Spit beast has reared its ugly head.
I'm a Spit fan. I have precisely one book of WWII planes and it's on nothing but Spitfires. I fly 'em when they're present in the CT and I fly 'em in the MA, even tho it's the "dweeb" thing to do. ;) I don't care. I love my Spitfires, and the rest of ya can just think you're "better" because you fly INFERIOR planes. :D
Looking forward to your next run of this, Sabre. :)
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Originally posted by brady
Chanter, stats are highly subjective, a lot of newbees fly plnaes like the Spit and the P 51 and the N1K2-J doing some not so smart things like trying to up from fields while beng vulched, being somthing of a Vulchers at times my self I can tell you from personal experance that most of my Vulches are Spits ,La 7's and N1K2-J's.
Actually there is nothing subjective about the stats. They consist of real numbers presented factually.
What is subjective is the interpretation of these numbers. An example would be assuming that spit pilots are more likley to be newbies that fly less intelligently compared to LW pilots.
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but that assumption would be right in the MA. I love the spitfire, but I do realize how good of a plane it is. I like the challenge of besting an opponent in a plane that has good and bad points, like the f4u or f6f or the hurri. Planes which kick butt when flown well. Spitfires are like flying ufos. THey are fast, handle like a charm, and there only problem is the ammo load, but getting on somebodies tail and close is not that hard. DId i mention the stop on a dime?
Now the spit 14 really isnt a spitfire. It doesnt handle particularly well, but it climbs good and is very fast. But! the 109g10 is about the same plane but better in every way.
Spit 14 should be in this map nexttime and I feel for those spit loving guys like the 880. This is like a late pacific map without the f6f.
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Why not the Tempest in this setup?
Terror
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ErgRTC, I’m not necessarily taking issue with the conclusion, only with the lack of precision in the method.
What I disagree with is the idea that numbers taken straight from the database should be dismissed because they are “highly subjective”, while at the same time presenting an assumption as objective information, without providing any specific data.
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yawn....
Whos the other guy that hangs out in the gameplay forum with this problem. Cant remember the handle anymore. Maybe this will ring a bell.
poor sap: I was flying the spit 9 yesterday, does anybody else think it handles a little too well?
theguyIcantremember: WHAT! How did you come to this conclusion! I WANT METHODS! REFERENCES! YOUR MOTHERS MAIDEN NAME.......
I didnt think there was a reason to disagree or even put as much thought into it as you have. Sorry.
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Hehe ERG, Myelo wish i had gone to college so i could write like that, damn thats beautiful! Keep it up i love readin it lol!
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Hey anybody notice the ct is still full of knit bases?
Has it been reset? Or did somebody screw it up again?
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Originally posted by Nifty
I'm a Spit fan. I have precisely one book of WWII planes and it's on nothing but Spitfires. I fly 'em when they're present in the CT and I fly 'em in the MA, even tho it's the "dweeb" thing to do. ;) I don't care. I love my Spitfires, and the rest of ya can just think you're "better" because you fly INFERIOR planes. :D
Looking forward to your next run of this, Sabre. :)
You've got a point Nifty. As way back as AW DOS the Spitfire has drawn the ire of those who don't like it. I agree with all of you saying the Spit XIV should be in this set-up. However so should the ME-262, and how or where you fly your plane is your business. The Spit in any version is a great aircraft, and each version should get it's time to shine. Even though you can count me in the numbers of the certified Spit haters, it shouldn't be kept out of set-ups. I'm just glad I'm not on the CT staff, taking all these complaints we give out is as bad as taking on 4 spits all by yourself.;)
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Sabre,
I didn't mean to imply that this setup was rife with Me262s. I've only flown one sortie in this setup and I saw one 262, but I was sitting in it.:p
I was refering to the one time I had access to the Spitfire Mk XIV in the CT (it was a BoB II scenario) and two out of every three German aircraft were Me262s.
The Me262 is so fast and so potent that it really makes little difference if the RAF player is in a 1944 Spitfire Mk XIV or a 1942 Spitfire Mk IX. Due to that agravation, I'll skip the CT events were the Me262 is freely available from all fields.
I'd like to use the Spitfire Mk XIV against the top end German prop planes without having to constantly blow energy dodging Me262s. It takes most of the fun out of the fight.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I was refering to the one time I had access to the Spitfire Mk XIV in the CT (it was a BoB II scenario) and two out of every three German aircraft were Me262s.
I remember that setup. Two out of every three Allied planes were Spit 14s, and the third was a Tempest.
- oldman
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Jeez, Oldman, I'd forgotten about that too. Now it's bringing it all back. . .the twitches, the years of therapy. . .
Actually, bagged my first ever tempest, driving a g-6, in that setup, and floated around for the rest of the day!
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brady ct is porked again.