Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Viper17 on August 31, 2002, 03:43:15 PM
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How does it do when fighting spitfires and Hurricanes. And do you Zestorer piolits need 109 escorts? Well rock on 110 drivers.
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Historicaly the Spitfires and Hurricanes had an easy game with the Me110. The only hope for a kill and escape was to plung down from the sun on a victim and blase him to pieces with the tremendous fire power form his nose.
The Me110 was as a Fighter hopelessy declasified in BoB.
Sailor
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Unfortunately, in the BoB scenario played over the past few weekends, the 110 had the upper hand most of the time, causing us Hurricane pilots to see an Me110 and wisely try to run away!
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Göring made some bad decisions and method how to use Bf-110s was one of them.
In AH and WWIIOL pilots are usually doing a "freieJagd" which suites better for a plane like 110.
Keep it fast, engage when you're on top, don't waste your energy and extend when needed.
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There's a big difference between the RL BoB and how Wotan used the Bf110 in the BoB scenario. The 110 was a lousy fighter in maneuverability ,like it's single engined brother the 109, it made up in acceleration and climb rate,however during the BoB they were confined to the slower lumbering buffs leaving them much more vulnerable than the 109s who at least had a slight fighting chance mainly to the smaller size compared to the 110 and of course being slightly more maneuverable.
They used thier superior climb and speed at altitude to decimate the fighter formations they met never turning with them and making fast passes on thier targets, compared to thier real life counterparts who were forced to maneuver with the more nimble spits and Hurris which the 110 couldn't do.
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Bo'B 110s sometimes flew with this external gas tank
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^^^^^
Which was known to hang up and/or detonate on jettison...
If flown correctly you can dictate the fight against early war RAF.
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I was asking any 110 drivers in the AH BoB scenario. BTW is its still runing?
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No, the last frame ended this past Saturday. 109s and 110s were to be feared, and Ju-88s were tricky to take down with the meager .303 guns we had in the Hurricanes. I put a 3-second burst into one flight of Ju-88s, hitting the leader wing tip to wing tip, at close range and still didn't get anything to fall off nor an engine to smoke. I was so close I inadvertantly collided with the drone flying beside it. My impression from the rest of the boys in the tower was that we didn't knock down many of them.
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maybe the external tank was modeled after fat herman's double chin
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The 110s did ok when they had alt and/or were dealing with Hurricanes already attacking Ju88s.
Not so good when the Hurricanes or Spits went for them on even terms.
Thats true in any Snapshot, TOD or Scenario using the BoB a/c that I have seen so far.
Its not bad if flown BZ only, with good wing pairs. I flew it in a TOD BoB frame, and wasnt too unhappy with it.
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Yup, good and correct information about 110s in real life, correcting that ever living misinformation about 110s fighter capabilities - or the claimed lack of.
110s could and did as well as they took against Hurricanes. Superior speed, armanent and acceleration enabled them to fight back on even terms. There are combat reports when whole squadrons of 110s and Hurricanes clashed with both sides coming out with about even losses. There were aggressive 110 squadron leaders, who had taught their pilots aggressive spirit and belief to their aircraft - and those pilots dared to fight and did fight. Spitfires of course were much worse opposition in equal combat and worth avoiding.
In WarBirds we did run few BoB EMC scenarios. In first of them my 110 squadron of Überfinns actually decimated the last remaining Spitfire squadron of RAF. Fastantic fight. ALl my pilots were in voice comms and we managed to bounce the SPitfires from higher altitude. We forced them to turn, while our 110s fought inthe vertical - never giving the Spitfires a chance. Two of them escaped, no losses to us. It was matter of tactics :) Used same lessons and tactics from Luftwaffe 110 pilots from BoB :)
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BOB scenario is over
we had 3 groups the flew 110s
1 group was Erprobungsgruppe 210 and flew jabo missions so I will exclude their scores.
The other 2 groups of 110s were I./ZG 2 and I./ZG 26
They flew 192 sorties. They finished with 33 kills 39 assists and 24 deaths.
They were 4 of the 5 lw fighter aces flew 110s (3 with 5 kills from I./ZG 26 and Zench of I./ZG 2 with 6 kills)
All 110s together (including Erprobungsgruppe 210) had 45 kills and 42 deaths with a k/d of 1.07.
With a k/d of 1.07 the 110 had the highest kill to death ratio of any fighter.
I was axis co and used my 110s differently then they used in the rl bob. They were sent in high and ahead of the bombers.
The 110c is a fine airplane when flown to its potential and facing its historical foes.
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In the scenario the ju88 proved to be the best fighter .
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not quite, the raf attack tractics lead to them being killed.
I was a gunner numerous times and have watched many films of raf attacking from dead 6 with a slow closure rate. When this happens in any bomber in ah the attacker dies quickly.
The raf were vectored around and away from our 109s by the ground controllers. Most of their losses came from running out of fuel just short of rtb in frames 3 and 4.
Even in a 3 bomber formation the ju88s have a limited firing arc that can easily be avoided by making 3 / 9 attacks. 3 / 9 attacks allow the attacker to reverse after each pass outside the firing arc of the ju88s guns.
Ho attacks arent effective because .303s dont have the hitting power to kill a plane on 1 pass. This means a ho attack always ends up when reversed as a 6 o'clock attack.
The ju88 was certainly never flown as a fighter it didnt attack other planes it simply fly level and steady and watched as hurris came at them from 6 o'clock. The ju88s had a cruising speed set for 230 by my orders. The only way the ju88 get guns on you is if you have made a mistake and end up in its firing arc.
A few ju88 squads actually cut throttle as the hurris attacked from 6.
Douwe had 9 kills, all from rear guns and a limited firing arc. Theres no way he could have gotten that many kills if the raf would have set a proper attack.
The ju88s got the most kills but so did b17s in Big Week.
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Hi Grendel,
>Yup, good and correct information about 110s in real life, correcting that ever living misinformation about 110s fighter capabilities - or the claimed lack of.
A good method to assess a fighter's qualities independend of the historical circumstances has been used by Mike Spick in his books. He asks: "How would the plane have fared if it had fought on the opposite side?" :-)
In the case of the Me 110, I think it would have fared excellently. It had a much better endurance than the single-engined fighters, so it could have climbed to altitude at the first warning of an enemy attack - the Spitfire's short endurance meant they had to scramble against the bombers when the Luftwaffe's fighter spearhead was already uncomfortably close to their bases. With GCI support, the Me 110 could have avoided the escort formations, and it could have been vectored to engage the bomber formations (and the close escort) from superior altitude. Its cannon armament would have been devestating against the bombers (much better than the RAF's RCMGs!), and though the escort fighters might have been superior, it would have been much easier to escape from a fuel-limited Me 109 that was flying over enemy territory than it was historically to escape from a Spitfire deep in the latter's homeland.
In short, a heavy fighter like the Me 110 would have boosted the strength of the RAF considerably in the Battle of Britain. If the Westland Whirlwind hadn't been hamstrung by its unreliable engines, they might actually have had one!
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I think the Hurricane and the 110 both did better than some figured, and the Spitfire and 109 did worse than many figured.
I knew the Ju88s would be tough with the 1.10 formations, and its too bad the BoB wasnt longer because it takes a few frames for everybody to get the "feel" of it, on both sides, fuel times, attacking buffs, all that.
Maybe next time we can go 6 rounds, with a few Stukas thrown in for good measure :)
Love the BoB.
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Glasses,
I disagree with 109 having lousy maneuverability :)
AH just doesn't model it right (alot of mistakes in the FM's), although still having good maneuverability.
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:rolleyes:
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fishu dont you fly wwiiol?
a guy at over at agw tested the 109e in wb3 wwiiol ah and il2, he also tested the spit 1 of wb3 ah and wwiiol.
wwiiol aircraft out performed them all in climb and turning.
Seems the fms over at wwiiol is extremely generous. They even perform above almost all published numbers for the 109e with a d601.(there were 109e with the db601n)
I know your a wwiiol fan boi so dont get your panties bunched. Comiing from the arcade fm of wwiiol to either wbs ah or il2 the fms will feel sluggish. AH (same with wbs and il2)has its problems but when compared to the wwiiol fm it holds more then its own.
The ah spit 1 rolls a bit higher then it should. My squaddie Urchin has made several tests and posted the results. Compared to published numbers the ah 109e was realitively accurrate.
If the bbs search function is back working then do a search.
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FYI, Fishu flew AH since early beta. He holds record in Fw 190A-8 with 220+ kills and 0 deaths in beta tour 2.
When 109G-10 had reduced power due to bug in beta, Fishu was first to discover it.
All in all, I wouldn't disregard his thoughts on FMs completely.