Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on September 02, 2002, 06:28:21 PM
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Something just popped into my gourd. Which is a dangerous thing.
The second pictures graphic is all that's really required for someone "else" to see. Someone else is never really close enough for anything more detailed to exsist. Probably less than that would suffice. How close to you get to another aircraft, maybe 150 yards ??
Is there a way ( I don't know, I just fly'um ) for the wing etc. to have great detail as in picture one only for the pilot of the aircraft ?? Along the lines of the instrument panel ? And if so what's the frame hit ?? Can detail be divided up that way ??
High detail instruments and skins for the pilot, while low detail for everyone else. While keeping terrain in a low detail mode as it is ??
Is that possible ???
If so, you would have a high detail aircraft without the baggage that would come with "everyone" having to see it.
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Hien does it. :D
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im as ignorant as you nopoop, well in in regards to this subject...im sure im sustantially more ignorant than you in general.
Maybe your idea could work. Just the way the drone bombers are far less detailed than the one that is actually being piloted.
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poopster,
that's not point i think.
he just wants HTC to fix white jug.
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That's cool, I'm just off on a tangent. Or hijack if you will ;)
A competitive sim has put alot of work into skin detail at the price of losing players that didn't have the horsepower to run it. Amongst other...eh..problems :D
My question is can detail be varible ?? If the skin has ultra detail for the pilot, can it be ONLY for the pilot. In that way lessoning the hit for the other players...Ultra detail isn't coded for everything else "outside" of the aircraft ( including other a/c ) Aircraft parts are for the most part static...
Help me out here gentlemen
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Fix white Jug, and more nice looking skins would help too. The above picture is a reskin from Janes WW2 which is a 4 year old game isn't it?
The frame hit difference wasn't noticed, I have a P1.2, 250RAM, GF2.
Anyway, at more than 200y a plane in AH is just black, at 400y, you can't even tell what type of plane it is without using the zoom.
I honestly don't care much about how the scenery looks, actuall AH ground scenery is good enought for me now. But the planes, I'm sorry to say, even the new ones, don't impress me much in their skining. I know it's just a question of personal preference, but I far as I'm concerned, my immersion factor is higher in a P47 who looks like that than in the AH one. The frame rate issue should not be that much either, I didn't noticed any in Janes WW2 and I don't have a ubber config.
Lastly, when I'm 150y in a bandit 6, I think I should be able to see him big enought to see the pilot color eyes. I tried it at Chino, I standed at about 200y from their WBs, and you could see a lot of details, but I guess that's the advantage of the human eye over a computer screen.
My 2cts :) I wanted to say of this for a long time now, finally did it ... wohoo. I love AH, but the graphics are aging pretty bad, there's probably nothing they can do about it, but didn't heart to tell them my thoughts.
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Only for the pilot is not an option either, we fly a lot in formation in the 56th, so it's nice to look around and see your wingman plane detail also... but I understand what you say, if I don't want to load the details of a 3,000y FW... But is there such a thing? In AH the 3,000y FW is a couple of black dots put together (or at least looks like it) ... even a 600y FW.
I am confident that HT knows his stuff on the subject and has some tricks in his sleeve. I also know that Nate and Superfly can produce awsome skins. What we have now is a "company policy" on what they think is best for us, I just emailed to say that I don't share their view.
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Frenchy, soon as HTC releases the new editor ,planes can be reskinned. The terrains consist of tiles whick are 256x256 pixels at 8-bit. The tiles whether graphic intense or not has no bearing on the final tile imformation size. they are all 66k in information, I'm not positive but would bet the plane skins are the same. The Information size of the tile of skin would not change. So it should have no bearing on anyones computer. Bottom line.... i think anyone with some knowledge of a graphics program would be able to make skins like the first pic from Jane's and incorporate it into AH, with NO aditional frame rate hits, since the file size would still stay the same size:)
NUTTZ
P.S. thats not a slam to HTC's plane skins now.
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I'm saying that even in formation, your looking at 5-600 yards. Just an opinion but the detail now is ok for that range.
If you could get the detail in the first pic, without sacrificing frame hit, which would be involved if "everyone" had that detail, you'd have the best of both worlds.
If that's possible..
Is it ??
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Guys over the last few months, Ive been wondering about the AH graphics engine.
Scanning the boards, from what I found, I think that the AH graphics engine is a 3rd party product. Someone once posted a link to a company called Multigen or similar.
In the last release, there has been some graphical tweaking ie smoke effects. I think that stuff may be like 'plug ins' or similar to the graphics engine.
Just in my opinion, I think that getting improved graphics is not really a Hitech Creations creation, but finding a company that will licence an engine that can be turned into the AH world.
Personally, I think that AH art work and modelling is very good, in terms of the technology of the engine. What is necessary probably is a new 'version' of the graphics engine or a new graphics engine from another company.
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What would in my opinion be the best development?
If the multigen people released a new DX8.1 graphics engine... that looks as least as good as WBIII or IL2...... and Hitech Creations licences it :cool:
Thats just a wild thought.... not a prediction.
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I'm not a techy, but I thought same as Nuttz mentioned. I don't think massive frame hit come from how you reskin a plane. I think it comes from things like how many polygons you have in a 3D model, or stuff like Clouds and smoke.
First time the clouds were realized, or the smoke ... geez my TNT2 crieds for help. I switched to a Gf2, and it was greatly improved FR wise.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
I'm not a techy, but I thought same as Nuttz mentioned. I don't think massive frame hit come from how you reskin a plane. I think it comes from things like how many polygons you have in a 3D model, or stuff like Clouds and smoke.
First time the clouds were realized, or the smoke ... geez my TNT2 crieds for help. I switched to a Gf2, and it was greatly improved FR wise.
I thought the customized plane skins that are coming with the new terrain editor are tied into the terrains, which means that whoever makes the terrains also would have to create the custom skins for that terrain. Or would the terrain editor have the option like AW's SAC program where you could create the custom skin for your FE only?
ack-ack
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I think some of the terrains in AH are FAR superior to WBIII. Just my opinion but some of the players have done terrains using this format that blow WBIII out the door. Nuttz being a contributor.
The terrains in those cases are wonderful. If they could be incorporated into the graphics card instead of the CPU you'd have better frame rates now.
I'm in waaaaaay over my head here, believe me. But AH is CPU intensive, not taking advantage of the latest cards..
I get better framerates in WB.
Am I wrong here ??
As far as bottom line, the engine determines what is CPU based and what is graphics card based correct ??
A rearrangement would require a different engine. More than a weekends worth of work ;)
Akak that was a blatent useless quote...
Good point though.
( slapping the nightstick into the palm of his hand )
I've got my eye on you.
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Originally posted by brendo
Guys over the last few months, Ive been wondering about the AH graphics engine.
Scanning the boards, from what I found, I think that the AH graphics engine is a 3rd party product. Someone once posted a link to a company called Multigen or similar.
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Just in my opinion, I think that getting improved graphics is not really a Hitech Creations creation, but finding a company that will licence an engine that can be turned into the AH world.
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What would in my opinion be the best development?
If the multigen people released a new DX8.1 graphics engine... that looks as least as good as WBIII or IL2...... and Hitech Creations licences it :cool:
Thats just a wild thought.... not a prediction.
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I checked out the Multigen web page, especially the application example images at http://www.multigen.com/news/gallery/index.shtml. They are of extremely high quality* and must be DX8.1 T&L enabled if they are real time (which they are). I'd sure like to be flying around in that terrain in the helo image. If HTC uses a Multigen graphics engine, it must be a very old version. However, I don't think they do as only the latest version, Vega Prime, supports D3D instead of OpenGL only. Nevertheless, I suspect that HTC understands the economics of MMPOG flight sims and knows that it probably can't afford to upgrade the graphics engine (Multigen, for example, or others, probably charges an arm and two legs for their latest technology). Other MMPOG flight sims try to be more detailed, but they aren't particularly profitable are they?
715
*well, OK, the train one is pretty lame
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I'm in the dark about this stuff too but since you're talking about the graphics engine...
Here's an excerpt from the wargamers interview at the CON, hope it helps.
You can read the whole thing at
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aceshigh_interview_2002/
Sabre: When do you see that there'll be a need for a major upgrade to the graphics engine?
HiTech: That would be in about a year's time frame when we'll need to start on that. The cool stuff you can do with the new video cards out there hasn't really been a big deal
until they came out with pixel shaders. Pixel shaders were introduced in DirectX 8.1, but hardly any hardware out there supported them. So it really wasn't worth implementing in the game. As we approach about a year from now, TNT-2's will pretty much be out of date and we'll be into all GForce2 stuff.
Some guys I know without the GForce2 are already nervous.
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Originally posted by poopster
I think some of the terrains in AH are FAR superior to WBIII. Just my opinion but some of the players have done terrains using this format that blow WBIII out the door. Nuttz being a contributor.
The terrains in those cases are wonderful. If they could be incorporated into the graphics card instead of the CPU you'd have better frame rates now.
I agree that the textures used in some AH terrains are better than those in WBIII, and that the AH terrain designers make very clever use of those textures. But AH terrains have way fewer polygons than WBIII terrains. That doesn't have much effect on flight, especially at high altitude, except for getting tired of seeing pyramidal mountains, but it does have a big effect on the ground war. In WBIII higher polygon count terrains there are more places to 'hide' and traversing the terrain feels more realistic.
I have to admit, however, that I appear to be the only person that likes detailed terrains. Most people pine for detailed aircraft- but I never get close enough to other aircraft for that to make a difference (or, more accurately, I never get more than one frame of detail before I collide).
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I'll put my steeeenkin "quote" police badge away or there won't be anyone left on this thread :D
I know WBIII is using the Winter Wolf engine currently. And from what I can glean from posts, they purchased the rights to use it "in it's present form" from Winter Wolf. The designer of the engine is no longer with WB,
That would go hand in hand with what your saying 715 with the multigen engine.
Buy in at the current state and you have rights. As the engine is revised you have to buy in again.
Wholesale, retail..
You have the game, we have the engine to drive it.
Too deep in now..
But AH terrains have way fewer polygons than WBIII terrains.
Your correct. That being said, WB has the ability for better detail right ?? Why is it then with the level of detail available, the terrain looks like green jello :confused:
There must be "issues". There always is there :D
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Did you see the lines that Multigen carries?
I see no mention of a "graphics engine"... in fact, HiTech said in one of his first interviews, and several more times on this board, that the AH graphics engine was built "in house."
They use Multigen to create the models. Big difference.
-SW
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WB3 uses Bumpmapping
AH tiles are 1 mile square and have 9 points which the Altitude can be changed.
heres an example:
(http://www.graphixone.net/images/test3.jpg)
Heres an example of 2 tiles , they are the same tile the first is regular, the second i added a little bitmapping.
With WB3 theres many more than 9 points a single tile can be raised, I believe it's limitless.
(http://www.graphixone.net/images/test1.jpg)
(http://www.graphixone.net/images/test2.jpg)
To "simulate" bumpmapping within an AH tile is easy i do this all the time, But it is only a simulation and doesn't effect the flatness of the tile, nor does it change the SIZE of the tiles, so whether it's there or not has absolutly no effect on Frame rates.
NUTTZ
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Player developed 3D models would be nice. What is there to it except LOD propositions and UV mapping ?
Not to mention, it would allow Superfly and Natedog to spend more time with gfx engine.
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so whether it's there or not has absolutly no effect on Frame rates.
So in effect, this engine is long in the tooth, and by using the techniques you've explained it rocks with no hit on FPS.
On the other hand, an engine that supports increased variation and detail looks like green jello simply because it's not being utililzed to it's potential.
Along with a FPS hit that excludes a sizable portion of the potential clientel.
Why doesn't that surprise me.
This game rocks
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I have NO IDEA how WB's does their tiles, from looking at the game I would have to say theres probably nobody that could make seamless/lifelike tiles. OR they just want the green jello look.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by poopster
So in effect, this engine is long in the tooth, and by using the techniques you've explained it rocks with no hit on FPS.
On the other hand, an engine that supports increased variation and detail looks like green jello simply because it's not being utililzed to it's potential.
Along with a FPS hit that excludes a sizable portion of the potential clientel.
Why doesn't that surprise me.
This game rocks
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Originally posted by Hristo
Player developed 3D models would be nice. What is there to it except LOD propositions and UV mapping ?
Not to mention, it would allow Superfly and Natedog to spend more time with gfx engine.
More like, Superfly and Natedog would spend more time debugging and fixing player made models.
-SW
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The 3D look of the planes are pretty good I think, it's the skining who bugs me out.
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well the skins would need to be much higher resolution to get the results you showed in that EAW pic Frenchy. Just look at how thick the panel lines are in the AH jug compared to the EAW one. If the plane skins are 256x256 in AH, there's not much more detail that can be added.
The skins we have now are pretty good considering that limitation. But it would be nice if there was an option for 1024x1024 skins, or all skins were made in that size with an option for downsizing it to 256x256 for those with older video cards (like in IL2). I'll be happy just to see some different skins on different terrains (especially in TOD) once the terrain editor comes out.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
More like, Superfly and Natedog would spend more time debugging and fixing player made models.
-SW
Your statement sounds like underestimating people's talent. Il-2 and WB accept player made models. Do you think AH players are uncapable of doing the same ?
IMO, hi-res textures would be on top of the list. Still, planes like 190 show low poycount. Just take a look at 190 canopy and you'll see. What is the polycount on AH planes anyway ?
As for engine, go try WB for a minute. Take p47D, p51D or P38L and watch the reflections an plane skin. Awesome ! And you know what ? P47 models are player contributed. Actually, the best looking models like c.202, c.205, p47c, P47d and 190A8 are work of Lemsko - a member of PDC.
(http://www.lemsko.de/3d/P47d-25/2.JPG)
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Thanks for the clarification on the origin of the graphics engine.
If it is in house then that is a very GOOD thing indeed! There is a lot more scope for expansion
under these circumstances.
Sansho, your comments regarding the texture resolution holds a key to major enhancement potential.
An older graphics engine can compete with newer engines, if there is scope for
more detailed textures.
I think we should all watch the next release of WWII Online closely.
They are implementing hardware DX8.1 Transform and Lighting into their graphics engine.
They are also releasing new high resolution textures...My 128 meg GF4 can handle
WAY more textures than my ye olde GF2MX or ancient TNT2Ultra.
Have at the new textures shots for 1.67 WWIIOnline..... same game.... better looking:
(http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/~wwiiolhq/panzerexplode.jpg)
(http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/~wwiiolhq/road.jpg)
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There is one thing funny in the first picture :)
Are the Jug pilots unable to count their guns ?
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ouch, WWIIOL 1.67 hitting my heart...
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The art in Janes was awesome, especially the instruments .
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(http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/dec01/IL2_03.jpg)
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So true Oedipus :(
look what happend to the pillar of the 190 :)
(http://www.ifrance.com/straffo/comp.gif)
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To make those details on a plane requires larger textures.
Which would make a much larger down load and also some of the currently supported boards out of range.
AH's engine is completly written in house.
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last Il-2 upgrade patch :
4 more planes :Messerschmitt Bf-109 E-7/Z ,Yakovlev Yak-9,Yakovlev Yak-9D ,Junkers Ju-87 B-2 .
Total weight : 29 MO ...
Current AH weight : 32.5 MO :)
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You can't polish a turd.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Your statement sounds like underestimating people's talent. Il-2 and WB accept player made models. Do you think AH players are uncapable of doing the same ?
Did you bother to read what Oleg said about player made models? He says they spend as much time going over the model and fixing errors with it as he would building a completely new model.
Not to mention the size of Il2's team is 4x, or more, than that of HTC so they have resources to fix up player made models while creating new ones.
As for engine, go try WB for a minute. Take p47D, p51D or P38L and watch the reflections an plane skin. Awesome ! And you know what ? P47 models are player contributed. Actually, the best looking models like c.202, c.205, p47c, P47d and 190A8 are work of Lemsko - a member of PDC.
Looking nice and requireing time to fix 'em up are two entirely different things. I know all about the PDC, but it still takes time to fix up player made models and make sure they will work properly in the game.
-SW
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Well IMHO, the size of the d/l and the average graphic card are not an obstacle anymore. However, I can understand reasons based on development pace (i.e.: "better a lot of things with this graphic engine instead of a few with the new one").
I for one would like to see a more powerful graphic engine, like the WB's one I mean. And I'm sure that sooner or later AH will feel compelled to go in that direction by the market. However so far IMNSHO, AH is still the best.
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Couldn't agree more on the graphics and how much AH is showing it's age. Though with any new graphic Improvements I'd really want to see an improved damage model as well.
...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers
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Odepious....IL2, WarbirdsIII and WWIIOnline have the same 3D cockpit as AH. There is no difference. AH just lets you move you head. 3D is 3D.
As far as form over function..... I play AH regardless of the older graphics style. For me, the sim itself is good enough without the modern graphics engine. That doesnt change the fact that I would be happy to have a larger optional download for bigger textures or new engine.
I download 130 meg, just for the newest WBIII versions and I dont even have an account :) I dont care how big the download is, if it enhanses my immersion :)
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If you like big download try FAIII last time I looked the download was 260 meg and the smallest patch was 68 meg
DarkHawk
PS I have flown both but stay here Like AH better.
:D
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Why not allowing an extention for the ones who bother to download big files?
You can have the default Aces High if you are download challenged and/or graphic card chalenged. But leave an Enhanced Aces High Option for the ones who can afford it.:cool:
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Because that doubles the work load of an otherwise already overworked team.
We get far more in every update than any other game out there... and they do it just as quick, if not quicker, than every other developer out there.
Do you want them to slow down their progress to make a new graphics enhancement which will have to be updated in another 8 to 12 months... when they can just as easily do it in 8 months or so and give us a FAR better enhancement because cards with far more features will be the standard?
Despite what many of you may think, GF2s still are not the standards in many people's PCs.
What I don't get is, HiTech said he was going to do a graphics update when GF2s were standard in everyone's PCs... so why do you keep pushing the issue? It gets a bit repetative after a while.
-SW
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Why? Because it starts to be more and more obvious for me that the sim graphics are aging. I'm making my voice eard that it starts to darken my gaming experience.
You can act as ofended as you wish SW, but I politly stated my thoughts and even tried to propose solutions to help wait the "no soup for you 1 year". As far as I'm concerned, having nicer looking planes is more important than flying a P47M. It has nothing to do with my beliefs on the great effort that HTC is putting in their baby.
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SWultfie, how are you in a position to determine if the AH team is overworked or not? We have no idea about anyones workload. I dont either. Workloads are up to the Hitech Creations team, not any players.
This topic is the same as anyother feature request. Just a request and discussion on the 'state of play'. We are just discussing our thoughts and ideas!
I have made one other observation.
The level of quality of the textures for the newly released aircraft is increasing dramatically. When I look at aircraft textures such as the FM2, it looks to me like the texture has been prepared in very high detail... and downsized/resized with 'smart sampling' to fit the required texture map resolution.
It is my guesstimate.... that the ART team already have high detailed textures on hand. They probably created them in 1024x1024 or 2048x2084 or similar.
It MAY be that hires-textures could possibly be implemented with less trouble than thought. (ART wise... not programming task wise... I watched my brother program a 3D graphics engine with kinematics from scratch a while back.... you cant just click your fingers :) ).
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I still wish HTC would devote one version entirely to sprucing up the older graphics (like the F4U). As noted above, there's a lot of disparity between new stuff like the P-40 and stuff that's been around since beta.
J_A_B
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I dunno gents. Eye candy is nice and everything, but when I have 2 La-7s chasing me all over hell's half acre, I really don't notice that I can't distinguish the rivets on my wing from the panel lines. I think that playability has much more weight than the graphics, and given that texture sizes would have to increase by a factor of 4 or so to get to the levels that are represented in the WW2 Fighters screenshot, there would be a hit in framerate that would quickly make formation flying and furballs a jittery mess unless you were running something in the neighborhood of a 2 gig CPU with a GF4 Ti DDR. IMHO, the smoothness of flight and the gameplay are better places to spend computer resources as well as development resources. Anyway, when I buy a game that has really dazzling graphics, it is cool for the first few hours, but when I get into it, I start realizing that the FM is cheezy, or the campaign model is poor, etc.. At that point I put the manual back on the shelf, and log on to AH to get shot down over and over again.. :)
If you remember, when WB 1.11r2 was released, it was in an era of 1st generation 3d accelerator cards and software based graphics. Many boxed games had for years been shipping with textured skins, yet WB only had shaded polygons and no textures. It wasn't because the folks at WB didn't care about textures, but because the requirements to run the additional graphics would make framerates dip to unacceptable levels for many of their customers, and WB 1.11r2 produced framerates over 25 FPS on a modest system, when many of the boxed games would give you 12-15 FPS if you were lucky.
I am not suggesting that HTC should not be planning on upgrading their graphics engine, but that their time could be better spent right now on improving gameplay factors (particularly with the strategic model now that we have the improved bombing system that favors carpet bombing).
IMHO, small piecemeal graphics upgrades here and there would be a waste of time, since that time would end up being sunken development hours that would be lost when the graphics engine was fully overhauled in the future.
Just my 2˘ worth....
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FM, avionics, gameplay over "Nice to have eye candy" bs.
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better eye candy = more immersion = better game play
BUT why not make better eye candy optional.
The only real problem I see is the increased ammount of data. So maybe have an ah basic and downloadable additional features (like huge textures, cockpits...) but this i guess would be to much work to implement.
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but this i guess would be to much work to implement.
Not necessarily, if the players could design the plane textures/skins and put them up for download on Hitech side (like the terrains, like the sounds).
I realise that it is prolly too much workload to do a complete overhaul of all plane skins for HT, especially if it is not viable to increase the staff. It would be at the expense of other development plans for AH.
I also respect the decision to keep the basic download file (AH.exe) small and to keep the game compatible with as much hardware as possible.
Nevertheless I agree with allot of plp that the AH graphics is wearing out and that it does require an overhaul.
IMHO all the more reason to offer the community options (extra downloadable skins, skin develop tools, incorporate higher levels of resolution in the game by an addon AH.exe file that accomodates high res skins and terrain). Players can than choose themself what resolution they want to run and choose for the required downloads.
:)
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Originally posted by Hristo
(http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/dec01/IL2_03.jpg)
Hristo
What mode are you setup in IL2? What vid card? My cockpit isn't near as clear as yours..
tia
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More detail = lower fps and a much larger download
Frenchy, you say you don't notice a hit in fps between the two games, but how many visible aircraft are there in your comparison? Go do a comparison with 40 visible aircraft (an average to large furball in AH) and see what the results are.
Just a personal guess from playing with 3D graphics lately, but I think the AH textures are 256x256 pixels, where the ones you posted were either 1024x1024 or most likely even larger. Maybe even 2048x2048 (probably not this large, but maybe). In terms of download thats between 4 and 64 times larger in file size for each plane. Multiply that by how many planes in AH, and you start to see how much bigger that makes the game to DL.
Same with polys, both internally in the cockpit and externally. I'm sure that with the AH engine you can increase the number of polys to quite large numbers. While this doesn't increase file sizes much, it directly hits frame rates. Marginal machines quickly become unuseable, and the player base shrinks appreciabley. Remember we're talking online fights where the number of visible aircraft can be quite large. For example a 40 plane furball is not even outrageous.
Right now HTC wants to keep the potential player base large, so they keep the minimum machine specs low, but this keeps the graphics to a lower level than what we can see in box games. Its a give or take situation, you can't have it both ways.
And lastly, while the P-47 you posted was quite pretty in most respects, personally I think its somewhat overdone. The panel lines look like the grand canyon. Just my opinon though. :)
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Why? Because it starts to be more and more obvious for me that the sim graphics are aging. I'm making my voice eard that it starts to darken my gaming experience.
Make your voice heard once, after that it gets repetitive and a bit annoying.
You can act as ofended as you wish SW, but I politly stated my thoughts and even tried to propose solutions to help wait the "no soup for you 1 year". As far as I'm concerned, having nicer looking planes is more important than flying a P47M. It has nothing to do with my beliefs on the great effort that HTC is putting in their baby.
I'm not offended, I am telling you exactly why they aren't doing two seperate graphics packs at once, and why they aren't going to do a graphics enhancement until GF2s become the standard.
SWultfie, how are you in a position to determine if the AH team is overworked or not? We have no idea about anyones workload. I dont either. Workloads are up to the Hitech Creations team, not any players.
Well, you can kind of pick up the idea that they are overworked when they rarely post, rarely fly, and have to push back the release a couple of days/weeks because of something.
It's not exactly rocket science here, every other game developer has a team 2x+ the size of HTC... and they take far longer, and do much less in their updates compared to HTC.
I'd say they are overworked, and will get to updating the graphics when they feel the time is right. HiTech made it clear a while back that they won't do a graphics overhaul until GF2s are standard. To get a bunch of new features into the graphics engine, you need to do a graphics engine overhaul.. so I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
The whole idea of two seperate graphics packs makes it apparent to me that not many of you understand the work load involved in producing two seperate engines, with two seperate sets of textures.
And it's very unlikely any of the planes in AH started off as 1024x1024 textures.. if they did, them lines on that P47 wing wouldn't look anything like that.
So basically, HiTech said he was going to wait to do a graphics overhaul until GF2s are the standard in everyone's computers.
Sit back, relax and wait like everyone else... and tell me, in all of the screenshots in this thread... how many of those games show a gameworld like AH? Neither of them do.
-SW
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Hey Swulf, I dont know what planet you live on,...
but I suggest taking a walk into any known computer store, best buy/comp usa/bj's/electronic boutique/ anything for that matter.
You'll soon find out that the STANDARD is ABOVE an already AGED Geforce 2. Geforce 3's are essentially the lowest you will see being sold aside from the equal to or better ATI line of products.
If you or anyone else still using a TNT/or voodoo Series card... well.. im sorry my friend but it is YOU who is BEHIND in the times of computer hardware standardization.
Tell me Mr. Wulf, How many Dell products/Compaq products/HP prodcuts.. are being sold today with TNT/Voodoo cards? or Even the already aging Geforce II ??
The Standard of Todays Graphic Hardware IS... a GeForce 3 line and even the GF4mx....
Aces High's Graphics engine is outdated, (not speaking of the aircraft models)and its common knowledge. Warbirds 3 has a higher level of detail and its a mmog, Il2 has set the NEW standard for flight sims in General.
Loc-On is next to pave the way.
Oh and as far as your Comment about companies being able to support their product and improve it reguarly, maybe you should stop by a place called. http://www.il2sturmovik.com Great team there, and always adding to a new benchmark in flight sim technology.
:rolleyes:
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Okay smart ass, go to every Aces High player's house and look inside their computer.
Write it down, tally it up, and find out what the majority of players are using as their video card.
Until then, it don't matter one damn bit what's on the shelf.. cuz it ain't it no one's computer.
-SW
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As for Il2, the team is atleast 4x the size of HTC... and they turn out updates at roughly the same speed, but with less than half of what HTC includes.
I own Il2, I know.
Il2 looks nice, but it doesn't simulate jack above 3500meters. Atmospheric conditions? What? No, all planes receive the same degredation above 3500meters, unlike Aces High.
And at that alt, the terrain distance is far, far shorter than here in AH.
Can't play with more than 32 players either, and it rarely reaches that many... usually only about 16.
Il2 set the standard for boxed games... it didn't do anything to MMP games.
-SW
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"Tell me Mr. Wulf, How many Dell products/Compaq products/HP prodcuts.. are being sold today with TNT/Voodoo cards? or Even the already aging Geforce II ??
The Standard of Todays Graphic Hardware IS... a GeForce 3 line and even the GF4mx.... "
You'd be surprised. Just a couple months ago when I bought my new computer (I shopped around a lot), most of the systems for sale at places like CompUSA, BestBuy, etc, had TnT2's as their graphics cards.
I felt almost shocked to see an $1800 dollar computer, 2.0 gig 80 MB+ HD.....then it has a POS graphics card.
Modern graphics cards like the GeForce 3 and 4 are only "standard" in custom-built gaming or graphic systems, NOT in mass-market computers.
J_A_B
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If the HTC crew is overworked, why not hire more people?
I have no idea what their balance sheet looks like, but I'd be willing to fork over another $5.00 a month for a Graphics Overhaul, or another innovation.
$5.00 a month X 3000 subscribers X 12 months=$180,000 a year. That would more than pay for 2-4 more staffers.
As for whats in everyone's computer, here's a thread that will give you a cross section:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61673
Out of 62 reponses (granted a small sampling, but a sampling none the less)
GeForce II: 25 40%
GeForce IV: 13 20%
GeForce III: 13 20%
ATI Radeon: 3 4.8%
Voodoo 5: 2 3.2%
Unknown: 7 11.2%
As you can see, 80% of the sample is using GeForce II or better.
I would consider the Geforce 2+ Standard at this point.
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Muck, do you hire on more people "just for the helluva it" where you work?
They are overworked in the sense that they do a LOT more with a much SMALLER team than any other development team out there. They spend most of their time building stuff for the game. Besides that, HiTech said from the getgo he wants his team to remain small. Needlessly hiring people just for a temporary upgrade may not be something he wants to do. This isn't his first time building a computer game, he did WarBirds afterall.
You may be willing to fork over $5 so HTC can hire 2 more people, but they specifically lowered the cost of the game to attract more people.
In other words, you are the exception.. the majority of the playerbase would most likely leave if it went to 20$. Just because you will do it, doesn't mean everyone else will or can.
As for the sampling... that's completely worthless. HiTech did do a poll in game a while ago using that neato pop-up window for what kind of graphics card people use. That was a long time ago.
Just a month or 2 ago HiTech said he was waiting to do a graphics overhaul for when GF2s were standard in people's machines.
I would say that the results of his poll were vastly different than that of the 62 people sampling.
I wouldn't consider anything standard until you have a poll representative of the majority of AH players... which 62 is not even close.
Then on top of all that, the CPU speed matters just as much. If the majority of players have a GF2... but are still around 600/700Mhz... well, the graphics enhancement won't be that stunning, and in the end, won't be worth it.
-SW
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HT does it quite right.
Work progressively on issues that don't interfere with user hardware setup.
Work conservatively on issues that interfere with user hardware setup.
wnz
(c:
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Willi is wise.
However, time to think Christmas 2002, it's a good software benchmark.
Certainly a overhaul in pending.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
They are overworked in the sense that they do a LOT more with a much SMALLER team than any other development team out there. They spend most of their time building stuff for the game.
What would you like them to do with most of their time? This is their business. This is what they are paid to do. If they are doing so well, but are overworked as a small team, imagine the possibilities if they expanded their business
You may be willing to fork over $5 so HTC can hire 2 more people, but they specifically lowered the cost of the game to attract more people.
In other words, you are the exception.. the majority of the playerbase would most likely leave if it went to 20$. Just because you will do it, doesn't mean everyone else will or can.
So in one sentence you're saying HTC is doing a great job, and you are obviously a fan of AH, but in the next, your saying the bulk of the player base would defect for 16 cents a day. Which is it? They pulled in a larger player base by dropping their price. They grabbed a larger market share when AW went under. Now you've got your captive audience. You've got your AH junkies. Business sense tells you to raise the price a marginal amount, and reinvest in your business
As for the sampling... that's completely worthless. HiTech did do a poll in game a while ago using that neato pop-up window for what kind of graphics card people use. That was a long time ago.
When was the last time you saw a pop-up? Do you know the results of this sampling? I know what my results are. If you can show me HTC's numbers, then the sampling is completely worthless. But because it disagrees with your argument, you dismiss it. Hardly Scientific.
Just a month or 2 ago HiTech said he was waiting to do a graphics overhaul for when GF2s were standard in people's machines.
Until I see numbers to the contrary, I submit that the GeForce 2 IS the standard at this time.
I would say that the results of his poll were vastly different than that of the 62 people sampling.
How can you say this with not a shred of data to back this position up?
Then on top of all that, the CPU speed matters just as much. If the majority of players have a GF2... but are still around 600/700Mhz... well, the graphics enhancement won't be that stunning, and in the end, won't be worth it.
-SW
I'm not going through all 62 responses again to get the CPU speeds. If you want to do it, be my guest.
BTW, Wulfe. You read faster than I type. I'm sorry, I deleted my original post while you were responding to it. So for those playing at home, they ahve no idea what you are responding to. My fault.
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What would you like them to do with most of their time? This is their business. This is what they are paid to do. If they are doing so well, but are overworked as a small team, imagine the possibilities if they expanded their business
I would like them to continue developing and concentrate on the core of the code. Not some pretty overhaul that I don't need.
I do need better connections. I do need a more stable front end. I do need more planes. I do NOT need prettier graphics that will slow down my machine and cause me to upgrade, thus plunging more money into something that will only give me marginal satisfaction.
I can imagine the possibilities if they expanded their team. They did that at WarBirds... and wow... man the possibilities are endless!..........
If you can't catch the sarcasm, you need to find out how bad WB got fugged up because of the "Bigger is better" train of thought.
So in one sentence you're saying HTC is doing a great job, and you are obviously a fan of AH, but in the next, your saying the bulk of the player base would defect for 16 cents a day. Which is it? They pulled in a larger player base by dropping their price. They grabbed a larger market share when AW went under. Now you've got your captive audience. You've got your AH junkies. Business sense tells you to raise the price a marginal amount, and reinvest in your business
This tells me you don't understand much about business sense.
I would recommend you take a couple of college level courses in business and economics.
No matter how much someone likes a product, a price hike does not sit well with them. A price drop is like cocaine though.
When was the last time you saw a pop-up? Do you know the results of this sampling? I know what my results are. If you can show me HTC's numbers, then the sampling is completely worthless. But because it disagrees with your argument, you dismiss it. Hardly Scientific.
What? My argument is to wait until HiTech thinks it's a good time to do a graphics overhaul.. and at that point in time it will be beneficial to both him and us. Your line of argument is "I've done very little research, have a very small sampling, but from this I can conclude the majority of people playing AH have GF2s or better"
If you can't see how asinine that is, then I really can't help you.
How can you say this with not a shred of data to back this position up?
Okay, sit here and read these lines I'm about to type 7 or 8 times. Maybe then you'll understand. HiTech did a poll to find out what video cards people have. Based on the market, people upgrade either once every year, or once every 6 months. HiTech recently said he was waiting for GF2s to become the standard in people's machine. This poll was not more than 6/7 months ago. We have no new graphics engine, and no mention of one in the works.
This is my data, and from this I can easily conclude that GF2s are not the standard yet.
I'm not going through all 62 responses again to get the CPU speeds. If you want to do it, be my guest.
I wouldn't either, because 62 is not representative of anything but those 62 people. It does not even come close to the majority.
If you think this is how polls work, you should stay WAY away from any job that requires marketing and/or keeping a target audience.
but like I said, I'm not the one trying to get a new graphics engine right now. I'll wait until HiTech thinks it's beneficial to both us and him to do one. I am, however, trying to tell you the reason why it has not and is not happening right now. You choose to ignore that and rely on your miniscule "data"... fine, but remember, I'm not the one trying to prove to HiTech what the majority of users have in the machines- you all are.
-SW
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Allow me to interupt the mud slinging for just a moment :)
Some very good points.
1) Download Size. The last couple of games I've downloaded (Jedi Knight 2, Soldier of Fortune and a few others) were all over 100+ mb. If Aces High swells from 32.5 mb to close to 100mb, that's really not that uncommon a download size. Just journey around the various 3D game sites and see for yourself. I dont think the size of the download really matters. The quality of the program/game will speak for itself. If its too much to download, they can always request a CD, get it from a friend, grab it at work where there is bigger bandwidth, etc...
2) Let players tune in our as much detail as they want. Your system can't handle the big textures, detail, etc? Then tune it down (via a graphics option menu?) like most every other game out there. My sluggish P3 500 can run Jedi Knight with the default settings, but creeps to a slow death if I crank in the details, hi res, etc. I think a great balance on the graphics issue is let those that have the power to do so crank it in. Right now, they can't, we're held back by the slower guys to an extent. Just give the player the power to guage and setup their system for what they like.
The immersion of this game is a huge sell. Other games look prettier and such, but do not have the addiction this one draws. But, we've got that SVGA look :(
Just count me in as one that would *like* the option to crank up more detail if it became available.
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I agree that they need to concentrate on the Connection issue right now. I would also prefer a better start model, and better game mechanics to a graphics overhaul, but that's my personal priority. So, yes, I would agree that HTC has some issues to tackle before a graphics upgrade.
I cannot see how hiring qualified personnel is going to send AH into a tailspin like Warbirds. For every 1 company that expands and fails, there are 10 that succeed and thrive.
AS far as my business education, I have a Bachelors Degree in Business Administration from Adelphi University. Your assertion of lowering price to appease already happy customers goes completely against the business model. To put it VERY simply, you lower prices to attrach more customers during times of heavy competition. You raise prices when there is little competition, and use the proceeds to Eliminate any competition and dominate the market. HTC had a winfall when AW went under. Free customers. Come and get 'em! Now is their chance to capitalize on their dominance in their industry.
You seem to have unwavering faith in the wisdom of Hi-tech. Did you ever stop and think maybe the GeFoce II is the standard now, but Hi-tech is dealing with connectivity issues, and cannot get to a graphics upgrade? Which brings us back to the original point. If theire plate is too full, hire more qualified people before they start losing player base. You'll lose many more customers providing an inferior product then you would if you charged more for a superior product.
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Golly, I know friends who boast of a diploma signed by Sally Struthers :)
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[whiney Sally Struthers Mode]
Just think, for 16 cents a day, you, yes you can make a difference!
You can help employ a hungry programmer!
You can save an unemployed dot-comer from an untimely demise!
For less than the price of a stamp, you can get help swell the ranks of HTC!
Please call the number on your screen and sponsor a Programmer today!
We'll send you a picture of the programmer you sponsored, a short biography, and a graphics engine update!
Call now, make a difference!
[/whiney Sally Struthers Mode]
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LOL
Good one!
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It's not my area to dictate to HiTech what he should do, or what he needs to do. Nor is it yours. He runs his company how he sees fit, and from the getgo he has stated he wants to keep it small.
I'm not arguing he should keep it small, I'm saying he WANTS to keep it small.
So no matter what you say to me about for every one company that expands and fails, 10 succeed (although I tend to think it's the reverse or that the ratio is not nearly that high), HiTech wants to keep his company small.
As for your education, well I never asked you what you had. Although you seem to misunderstand me quite well.
I never said lower the price, I said it was like cocaine. You lower the price, and more people will flood in. At some point you hit that point where you can bring in a whole load of people to offset the lowered price and actually make more money than with the higher price. At this point is where you tend to want to stay.
The idea of then going back and highering the price is a bad one. If you think I'm wrong, again, take a look at WarBirds. I paid the extremely high price 2 years ago, I'm not about to accept it going back up to that area, *I* will leave. I dunno about anyone else, but I'd imagine a lot of other people would too because the reason they signed up for AH was the lower price and they expressed their discontent with the higher price.
Then you take a look at what you are asking of them, you want to raise the price so that for those who do not have GF2s will have to upgrade. And those who do not have processers up to snuff, will also have to upgrade.
The customers who don't mind, will do it. Those who don't, will leave.
Which comes back to the point, if it's worth it to HiTech and to us, he will do the upgrade. If it's not, the entire deal of "I want pretty graphics" is completely moot.
Did you ever stop and think maybe the GeFoce II is the standard now, but Hi-tech is dealing with connectivity issues, and cannot get to a graphics upgrade?
If you can prove to me it is the standard, I will accept that. But I'd waver a guess that it's not. This BBS is not representative of the people playing the game at all. So again, if you can offer me more than 62 people's hardware... something in the 200-300-400 range, then I can accept that as fact. Otherwise, it's a completely useless poll.
Which brings us back to the original point. If theire plate is too full, hire more qualified people before they start losing player base.
And where will they go? WBIII? FA3? WWIIOl? Maybe one of those Target products.... IF they ever get released.
You'll lose many more customers providing an inferior product then you would if you charged more for a superior product
That's not true at all, HiTech offered a superior product back when it was $24.95 to whatever else was out there on the market. It didn't actually gain a huge increase in numbers until the price drop.
As for my unwavering faith... I trust HiTech knows what he's doing. A lot better than anyone in this thread. Afterall, he's been doing it since 1993, and he's been doing it well.
-SW
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Price is a funny thing.
I used to work in the mail order world. We would do price experiments often. This would entail sending out mailers to 3 groups of people with the same product at 3 different prices. The cheapest price was not always the biggest seller. In fact, often the costlier something was, the more it sold (to a point). We felt this was "perception of quality" that drove the sales.
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I have to agree with AK here, I recall a bunch of people dropping WB when they updated their graphics in version 2 and again in 3. I am a fairly decent techy and like cool things and I have a 1 gig machine with a GF2 ultra. According to benchmarks is well under half the speed of the current crop of gadgetry.
Why do I have this equipment (which is better than most) because it plays the games I use well. Of the 3 games i play regularly (GPL, AH, Nascar 2002) only 1 was released this year. I dont play these games/sims for their graphics I play because they interest me and they have good physics, gameplay, etc.
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Originally posted by narsus
I have to agree with AK here, I recall a bunch of people dropping WB when they updated their graphics in version 2 and again in 3. I am a fairly decent techy and like cool things and I have a 1 gig machine with a GF2 ultra. According to benchmarks is well under half the speed of the current crop of gadgetry.
Why do I have this equipment (which is better than most) because it plays the games I use well. Of the 3 games i play regularly (GPL, AH, Nascar 2002) only 1 was released this year. I dont play these games/sims for their graphics I play because they interest me and they have good physics, gameplay, etc.
narsus
The argument myself and a few others are trying to point out is that if the added details are "option-able", then it pleases both sides. Those that want em can crank em in. If you do not have the system that can run the added detail, then run at the non-enabled mode, etc
I dont know if that can, or will, be done. But other games/sims/etc seem to accomodate a vast PC audience by allowing players to set the level of details, etc
that's all
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
something in the 200-300-400 range, then I can accept that as fact. Otherwise, it's a completely useless poll.
Where do you pull these numbers from? You are saying 5-10% of the population would need to be polled in order for it to be useful. If you think you need 200-300-400 people polled to derive meaningful information from population base size of AH (guessing 5000-10000), then you don't know much about sampling sizes, statistics & polling. It is possible to derive reasonably accurate polls with less than 1% of a population.
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"Shut up and wait. Don't talk about anything, don't discuss about anything, don't complain about anything that has to do with the game itself, because HTC will take care of everything - sooner or later."[/B]
Guess what, people begin to question "how much later?"
It's the 21st century now. People react to the visuals of the game as much as the gameplay. The future customers pick the game they want to play/buy by its first impressions. Which means the flight sim gamers who would leave their teens behind soon won't even consider looking at AH as their game or choice if it lags behind in the graphics category much longer. How would they ever find out about this wonderful potential of AH if they don't feel attracted to it because the graphics, compared to other contenders, are lacking?
Graphics are becoming more and more of a prerequisite for the success in games.
We just love to think a game which boasts superior graphics would probably suck in internal game play - because we are people who enjoy a product with great gameplay but mediocre graphics.
We comfort our troubled minds by thinking so... and the worse this sort of thinking goes, it turns into a mental masturbation like the "unquestionable faith for HTC" some people just HAVE TO EXPRESS in a perverted way.
When there are already products which depict the same sort of WWII air combat with better graphics, guess what, its only a matter of time people come up with better game play to match the level of graphics. Don't pretend the iron rule of competition won't apply to AH because it is currently the best.
The need for better graphics is more serious than we'd like to think.
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Swulfie, It is obvious that you do not "get it".
You have already been verbally spanked by Muckmaws wisdom. You have seen a small, but very important poll, of which is also indicitive of the end users system specs but yet you continue to blabber on about what you think is not standard yet.
Oh and yes you did challenge him when you said that he should take a few "college level" classes on business, so please shut up with your ignorance.
You are only shooting your own foot.
:rolleyes:
As there are many various things that we all can say is in need for at the current moment. There is a Single facet of Aces High that is Glaringly apparent that is in need of rework.
It is obvious that the networking aspect, the multiplayer portion of Aces is top notch. It's definately time to update the graphics portion to that of Dx8 standards to match its mmog counter part.
On the Aces High Webpage itself it says that :
DX 8 compatible video card
PII 333 or better
Now tell me.... Who here is running a PII333 or just above still?
The Direct X 8 api isnt even the current one being used correct?
Is it not Version 7?
Geforce II's are standard now... Get over it.
A standard machine runs at at least 1GHZ now.... Get over it....
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Originally posted by BigGun
Where do you pull these numbers from? You are saying 5-10% of the population would need to be polled in order for it to be useful. If you think you need 200-300-400 people polled to derive meaningful information from population base size of AH (guessing 5000-10000), then you don't know much about sampling sizes, statistics & polling. It is possible to derive reasonably accurate polls with less than 1% of a population.
Actually, I was thinking arena size. But you are right, the AH base size might be 5000-10000.
It would be impossible, with the multitude of gaming rigs and video cards out there to get any form of reasonable guess on who has what unless the entire population is polled. At which point, the poll is usefull.
Prediction sampling (sampling 1%) works well when you don't have a target audience but you are seeking one. When there is an established audience, it's in their best interest to derive an accurate poll that will poll everyone.
If you poll even 20% of the population, what happens if 80% of the population has a video card or card(s) that none of the 20% had?
Kweassa- "Graphics are becoming more and more of a prerequisite for the success in games."
Show me one MMP game that hinged it's success on graphics?
I can show you one that is failing, despite the new graphics.
Deez- you are truly an idiot. I didn't get spanked by anyone's "wisdom", especially when a poll that is supposed to be representative of the majority of AH customers only represents a MINUTE portion of the customers.
Wouldn't it be funny, if you polled the entire customer base and found out that GF2s or better were in the minority category? Or that PII500s were the average system?
Boy, I would laugh my bellybutton off.
I never asked him what his degree was, I told him he should take some college level classes on business and marketing. I still stand by that, because it certainly has changed with the internet age.
Anyway, that poll is not important when it only has 62 people and the customer base could well be 10x that size... it's not representative and thusly a useless poll.
But I wouldn't expect you to know that, hell you still think Xplane simulates flight leaps and bounds beyond AH... yet it essentially derives the same output as AH.
Geforce II's are standard now... Get over it.
A standard machine runs at at least 1GHZ now.... Get over it...
On the shelf and in people's homes are two entirely different things. Get over it.
-SW
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I dunno AKswulfwe
Its getting painful to read these posts anymore. Everyone is pretty much in agreement that updated/new graphics is needed. Show someone that has been playing Falcon 4, IL2, MS Flight Combat sim...then toss them in front of Aces High. We're the lowest on the graphics "wowee" scale, but if they give the game a chance, the immersion and online play builds the addiction
You wanted examples of games whose success pended on the graphics?
go to your local electronics boutique, ask a clerk and prepare to be laughed at.
they all require good graphics. what sells them is those screenshots on the back of the box. I worked for EB for 5 years, part time. The screen shots make it sell.
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I said MMP. That means Massively MultiPlayer.
As in, more than any boxed game has done, with Red Baron 3D being the exception- but it took them over a year after they released the initial game to produce a server based (60+) game.
All boxed games revolve around graphics. That's their selling point.
And for "everyone", you mean the 5 or 6 guys in this thread, right?
And where did I disagree a graphics overhaul is needed? I stated, repeatedly- you can look it up for yourself, that now is not the time. 3 months, 6 months, only HT knows. He knows when it is feasible for him to do it and when it will be beneficial to the customers.
But to make 2 seperate graphics packs, you have effectively extended every patches release date between 1 month to 6 months depending how big the update is, and how many new planes, GVs, anything require new artwork, is added.
I'm not opposed to a graphics overhaul, I have been repeatedly stating the reasons why it hasn't been done and isn't currently being done.
-SW
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Nicer graphics sound preatty cool, but:
-somone ask HiTech about future plans for advence graphics?
id like to listen official voice. It is possible , i think yes. If HTC make better graphic then wb2.7X, im sure cane do better then il2 of wb3. I think programming are not the point.
Hardware for hosting computer are problem, now we have ~ 450 ppls online in prime time. Thats mean huge power of host and strong connection. Dunno, HTC is ready for pay so much money for all new stuff this year?. Is he survive on market if give us better graphics? That cost lots of money, which one not back in a month or 2. If he overinvestment what we do? go to wb3? no way!!!!
- its hard times for all ppl on the world with money. I know not for all but for most yes. I count ubgrade my system in next year, mby. But no see any chance by next year. Strategy of HTC is right for me.
So, im ask HiTech, how looks future in graphics and game weight for next 12 monts? We should know that .If HTC plans make som huge changes we must be ready and buy new hardware:)
And take money for that can make som time;)
with respect
ramzey
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Having worked in software QA (where I need to know what the typical user system is) I have to say that SW has it right.
The standard is not what is in stores right now. Nobody who wants to make money on a product writes software that requires the computers that are in the stores now to run. They write software for the computers that have had time to enter the marketplace via being purchased in quantity. In other words they write software for hardware that is about two years behind the stuff that is in the stores now.
About your poll. Any self motivated poll on the internet is complete BS. The results are greatly distorted by the reason people answer them. Bragging, in the case of the "What video card do you have" poll, plays a large part. Who wants to say they have a TNT1? I've got a GeForce4 4600, but i probably wouldn't answer if I had a TNT1.
All the self motivated internet polls I saw about the 2000 Presidential race had Bush beating Gore by 10-15%, even on CNN.com. After looking at the non-internet world I said, in the O Club on this board, that I thought it was going to be within 1%, but I didn't know who would win. I was laughed at.
Guess who was right.
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Graphics are peripheral in the MMOG genre. If you wan't proof look at the top MMOG in the world. Not Everquest. Lineage: The Blood Pledge has the most subscribers. The graphics in that game, at least at the time I played it, were so dated that I actually laughed the first time I logged in, after downloading over 100mb. A MMOG needs to be stable, lag free, and fun. Graphics can help make a game more immersive but its not a major part of what makes a game good.
If HTC increases the hardware requirements, they will most certainly lose customers. If they keep producing a quality product instead of smoke and mirrors they only stand to gain because there isn't going to be anything to challenge them any time soon. Yes, better graphics will attract more people in the short term, but it won't keep them from leaving to play WW2OL 1.POS when it raises the graphical ante. Playability, balance, and community are much better investments than pretty pictures. I say keep the graphics to a minimum and put the resources into the actual game. Just my $15.00.
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SWulfe, muckmaw, Joey,
You think you speak for the majority of the AH players, I find that funny. Can you all read minds??
Many AH players don't even read this BBS.
I guess the only way to find out if AH players want:
- improved graphics
and to accomodate this:
- are willing to pay more for the game
- are willing to upgrade their system to GF2 +
- are willing to download large add-ons
- are willing to wait for other upgrades until graphics is improved
is for HT to inquire through online questionaire (as done before on many other issues, they wanted the communittees input on).
I for one agree with all above questions
;)
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Its really hard to believe that GF2 and 1GHz CPU is not the standard, the average system that is. It means that there are so many TNT-GF1 around ... ? And again, I dont think that graphics is the main issue, nor the d/l size. Take a look at how many players FA and IL-2 have and at the size of their d/l. Development pace, crew size, strategic choice ... these are arguments I can agree with. But not for a long time.
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I trust we'd all love to have photo-realistic graphics on 50" plasma screens. But I can appreciate that coding for a low common denominator in graphic boards is a reasonable business decision.
This is a niche business with a limited universe of prospective customers.
A perfect balance of sparkling graphics, captivating game play, connection stability for a myriad of global subscribers in a mmp environment isn't easy.
I expect the graphics will improve when time and resources allow. I'm sure many of you have waited 6 months or more to upgrade to a new graphics board, or complete PC, because you wanted to jump 2 generations instead of one. It's no different for the developer than it is for the consumer.
If I had hitech's ear for 2 minutes, I'd say:
1. Stay small but get ready, because one competitor's parent company may be ready to sell out, or off load by April next year.
2. Think a little more globally i.e. market to Japan. 1/2 the population of US with better connectivity, credit cards and an active aviation game market. But interface, help file, website and download site have to be in Japanese. The small number of Japanese players here is just the tip of the iceberg. (I have a 100Mbps fiber optic connection, but most Japanese have 1.5-8Mbps DSL. No 56k dial-ups and US$15 is pocket change.)
3. Marketing, connectivity, user interface (the single, most important factor for converting a trial into a subscriber), game attributes and graphics.
4. And I'm having a blast with AH.
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A lot of guys argue but didn't took the time to read messages ahead. We advocate better graphics as an option for those who can afford them .....
............. so all the messages "it slows FR down" and "they will loose players" are non relevant as a discussion in this topic :cool:
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Karnak,
Having worked at < unnamed > game company, the graphics engine and the graphics data files them selves were definetly done for computers and graphics cards not yet available to the consumers. In fact < unnamed > CPU and graphics card manufacturers pushed to make it as CPU/GPU intensive as possible so they could sell their upcoming top of the line products.
Saying software ( games in this case ) are written for something avg. at the time of release might not hold true in all cases. I bet iD's Doom III won't run well with an avg. system at the time of its release either.
// fats
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A lot of guys argue but didn't took the time to read messages ahead. We advocate better graphics as an option for those who can afford them .....
............. so all the messages "it slows FR down" and "they will loose players" are non relevant as a discussion in this topic
It's very relevant. From what I know, an up to date graphics engine WOULD raise sytem requirements no matter how many options you turned off. And you can't have people playing with different versions of the game. Then X number of customers would stop paying $15 a month because their machine couldn't run it. So now HTC has spent money on new graphics and shrunk their potential customer base.
About the only visual improvements I'm currently for is the continued optimization of the current engine, and updated skins if time and money allows it. Anything more would mean, to me at least, HTC had their priorities all mixed up. But I think all you guys were asking for in the first place was better plane skins lol. Besides, lower system requirements mean more potential opponents.
Pretty pictures are nice, but I would rather have better gameplay.
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Some can play in 640x... or 800x600 or 1200 x ..., can't they?
Isn't it possible to have the same thing for your plane texture/colors?
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Better graphics are part of gameplay.
If HTC suddenly decides to give us "Chuck Yeager's Air Combat" level of graphics and announces will increase various levels of game play in turn, would we accept that?
We played those old games in those old days because there was no other option then.
Now, we have already tasted the fruits of current technology, and there's no turning back. Our standards have gotten higher, so we would accept current level of AH graphics as the absolute minimum. If we'd get anything worse than that, no matter what kind of new and improved gameplay the makers would offer, we would turn it down. That's how the paradigm and dialect of technology works. Two essential features do not remain mutually incompatible forever.
Either graphics will permanently embed itself to one's definition of "gameplay", or at least influence people's evaluation on gameplay greatly. That's how the current game industry is going. It is only matter of time until that becomes so.
So the question is, will AH be ready by then? Or will there still be people saying "I prefer gameplay over graphics" even then?
At current rate, I don't think the future's all that optimistic. It may not be doomed, but at least not as optimistic as it used to be.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Some can play in 640x... or 800x600 or 1200 x ..., can't they?
Isn't it possible to have the same thing for your plane texture/colors?
My thoughts mirror yours
Ever other game I have on this system allows me to crank in more or less details, resolution, etc.
I'm not saying force higher graphics on those proudly totting P3 500s and Voodoo 3's. But give the power users, and we sure dont know how many of them there are, that option.
I upgraded for better frame rates. I got em. Throw me some more details and such for my new system to chew on ;-) I upgraded cuz of Aces High and other games. No regrets. Now let's push the new system a bit ;)
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Why is it assumed that an update to the graphics engine would automatically eliminate the existing graphics engine.
I see no reason why the same game, being played in the same arena could not have different players utilizing different graphics engines.
You can offer a cutting edge graphics download that allows the game to be played by those with cutting edge hardware and lets HTC win in the screenshots war and lead the graphics pack. This would bring in more customers.
You can also leave the old graphics in place for people who cant/wont upgrade. They may not see planes, terrains, effects that are as good looking as the high end guys, but there is no reason the two cannot play together in the same arena.
This is the challenge... Dominate the industry by offering both options and building it so that its all integrated. Right now AH is excluding potential customers in its effort to cater to other customers. The guys with cutting edge hardware (or even 2 year old cutting edge stuff) who want top quality graphics are being excluded so that AH can get the lower powered hardware guy. The risk here is that someone comes along with better graphics and equal gameplay ect and begins to take away market share. Perhaps WB3 will get its act together (im not betting on it).
Why not go after ALL of the customers and offer both options?
I also agree that this would be a pretty serious undertaking with far reaching ramifications. Can AH's servers and hosting infrastructure handle arenas with 1000's of players on at a time? Would the cost of infrastructure increases coupled with the cost of graphics development bring a short term cash crunch that represents too great a risk? What type of marketing and at what costs would be required to maximize the market impact of the graphics upgrade? What is the ROI and its time threshold? Serious evaluation would be needed here. (call me, I have done consulting on this type of thing). Does HT really evaluate things like this or is it more of a "seat of the pants" managment style?
Fang
JG26 (WB.... where I have no account)
GPL GROWL WORLD CHAMPION ;) come race with us!
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I really am trying to se your point of view, here Wulfe. Honestly.
From my point of view, AH is my only real hobby. Wife, Kids, House, Career take precedence, but when the time came, I forked over the $2000 to get a top line system. Granted, I could still run AH on my old system, but I wanted a better gaming experience from my one hobby.
Someone else said it best. It's only a matter of time before someone who already has the graphics engine in place comes up with the gameplay to match.
People's first impressions are always based on visuals. Be it in gaming, or in dating.
Now, what HT does with his business is in fact, his business. But I cannot imagine how expanding his business can be detrimental. Think about all the multinational corporations that dominate their industry. They all started small. Mcdonald's, Cicso Systems, Microsoft, Dell, AT&T. The list goes on and on.
Where would these companies be if they never took the chance to expand? Cisco would still be a husband and wife team working out of their Garage. McDonalds would still be a burger joint in the midwest.
As far as a short term cash crunch, I've got news for you. HTC has already sold a stake in the company to an outside, private investment group. (I imagine this was done for start-up, or expansion capital). Depending on the details of this transaction, it may be possible for HTC to do a second private palcement, or even an initial public offering to raise more capital. HTC, once again, depending on the situation, may be able to maintain a majority stake in the equity holdings of the company by keeping the bulk of the offering as Treasury Stock. There's no shortage of companies, mine included, who would be willing to underwrite the issue, if the numbers are viable.
This thread has gone well off topic. (Mostly my fault). The point is the most simple of business creeds.
If you're not growing, you're dying.
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Some can play in 640x... or 800x600 or 1200 x ..., can't they?
Answer frenchy is yes look at Operation Flashpoint you can change texture detail, LOD level and all sorts of other things.
In the newest add-on 'Resistance' the graphics have been upped again, I dont have OFP Resistance but i'm guessing they must have added 512x512 or 1024x1024 texture maps to get the improvements.
This is an example of same game with an added patch which gives new mission, new vehicles AND a graphical improvement.
Heres the selection box in advanced to change texture detail:
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Apar, reread, then reread, then reread again everyone of my posts.
I said I speak for myself when it comes to what I want. I also said poll all of the customers to find out what they have.
Easy enough, that's not speaking for anyone and is attempting to get everyone's input.
Frenchy and LePaul- not at all, resolution size has nothing to do with creating different artwork for each. It's all the same.
As for the options idea, how many times do I have to repeat myself? You are effectively doubling, possibly even tripling, the workload for the art guys, of which there are only 2 of them. It's just not feasible.
You want more high poly count models, need two sets of models. You want more detailed skins, two, or more, sets of skins. You want more detailed this, that and the other thing, well you get the idea... it leads to a huge increase in workload.
Muck- I don't know why you are trying to convince me that making HTC bigger will make it better, I don't run the company. However, none of those companies, w/exception to MS, are software companies that have to market to people with a wide variety of hardware and peripherals. In the case of MS, the company may be big, but it's divided into divisions. Each one producing different products. Of course, the MS OSs are among the most unstable OSs on the PC market. So, if you want to use that as your benchmark for a successful company... be my guest, but I wouldn't. Not to mention ALL of those companies do something a lot of people need.
MMOG flight sims are a very small niche market. The customers you get, you pretty much have to keep.
"If you're not growing, you're dying"... like I said, WB3.. they grew and now they are dying.
Using any other company to compare to HTC is rediculous because there are only so many companies that produce online combat flight sims... and those are the only companies you can use to compare to AH.
In the case of FA3, the majority of people that play there play in the easy mode arenas... of which AH does not have. That's VR1's target audience.
But let me repeat this one more time for everyone in this thread:
I AM NOT AGAINST A GRAPHICS UPDATE, CURRENTLY IT WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE FEASIBLE UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF USER'S HAVE HIGH END MACHINES WITH HIGH END GRAPHICS CARDS IN THEM. YOU CAN NOT KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE UNLESS THE ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE IS POLLED. IF YOU WANT THE GRAPHICS UPGRADE, YOU NEED TO POLL THE ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE TO FIND OUT WHAT THE MAJORITY HAS. IN THIS INDUSTRY KEEPING THE MAJORITY OF CUSTOMERS SATISFIED AND THUSLY CUSTOMERS IS WHAT MAKES OR BREAKS YOU. MAKING A SEPERATE GRAPHICS OPTION WILL DOUBLE, TRIPLE, OR QUADRUPLE THE WORKLOAD AND THUSLY TIMELINE FOR EACH UPGRADE. THIS IS NOT A WORTHWHILE VENTURE FOR HTC OR FOR IT'S CUSTOMERS. IF YOU THINK I'M WRONG, CHECK OUT HOW MANY TIMES PEOPLE ASK "WHEN'S THE NEXT PATCH/UPGRADE COMING OUT." MMOG GAMES ARE A FAR DIFFERENT BEAST THAN ANY BOXED GAME YOU'LL EVER BUY, SO DO NOT COMPARE THEM. ONE MORE TIME, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO A GRAPHICS UPGRADE, I DO NOT THINK THAT NOW IS THE TIME, UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF HTC'S CUSTOMERS HAVE THE NECESSARY HARDWARE AND ONLY POLLING THE ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE WILL ARRIVE AT THAT ANSWER.
I'm sure that some people will still not understand, but that's fine. I am through trying to explain it. You are a business major Muck, I'm a computer information systems major. So if your degree makes you qualified to state how to run a business, then my degree makes me qualified to comment on... well what I've been saying all along.
-SW
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Originally posted by Blank
Answer frenchy is yes look at Operation Flashpoint you can change texture detail, LOD level and all sorts of other things.
In the newest add-on 'Resistance' the graphics have been upped again, I dont have OFP Resistance but i'm guessing they must have added 512x512 or 1024x1024 texture maps to get the improvements.
This is an example of same game with an added patch which gives new mission, new vehicles AND a graphical improvement.
Heres the selection box in advanced to change texture detail:
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeet!
Hey SW, maybe our favorite graphic guroux already have the skin made with high textures and downgraded them to fit current HTC policies? :D
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Maybe, but then you'd have a lot more artifacts on the bmps... of which there are currently none.
Of course, I dunno... I only skin planes using larger textures in other games.. clean lines is not exactly something that decreasing the resolution of textures produces.
-SW
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I'm sure you are extremely qualified in your field Wulfe.
Here is an article I picked up, that you might find interesting. Granted, it is not a poll of the AH community, but a much larger poll of the online gaming community from the makers of Half Life and an ISP. Please note, this article is almost a year old.
SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 3, 2001--Broadband service provider Speakeasy.net has teamed up with the creators of Half-Life and Counter-Strike, Valve Software, to survey the systems of competitive online gamers around the country.
The survey will give Valve specific information on how they can develop future games to maximize the abilities of their customers' hardware and allow Speakeasy.net to continue the development of their network to better serve their gaming customers.
Included in the latest update releases to Half-Life software, the survey requests validation of the user's system, thus ensuring highly accurate data collection. Since its launch last Wednesday, the survey has had over 300,000 participants, and is expected to continue compiling data for the next few months.
The survey is a fascinating look at the online gaming community's average hardware and Internet configurations. While the results clearly put the online gaming community high above the average consumer, they also show that there is much room for upgrading of hardware and Internet connections within the space. Main points of interest are:
INTERNET CONNECTIVITY Over 60% of those surveyed indicated that their Internet connection was greater than 256kbps, 20% of participants had near T-1 speeds, and it could perhaps be officially declared that the age for 3D gaming via dialup connectivity is over
COMPUTER SYSTEM MAKEUP Over 50% of participants have between 256 and 512 MB RAM installed and the average CPU speed of those surveyed is between 700-800Mhz
VIDEO CARD The most popular video card features Nvidia's GeForce2 chip; Nvidia just released their GeForce3 chip this past spring.
Survey Results
1,048,949 USERS have submitted this survey. Thank you.
Network Connection
number percent
NONE 129384 12.3
SLOW 786 0.1
28.8k 8099 0.8
56.0k 119018 11.3
128k 68275 6.5
256k 171149 16.3
384k 1 0.0
512k 289119 27.6
608k 1 0.0
1.1M 263115 25.1
FAST 2 0.0
RAM
number percent
Less than 16M 7 0.0
Up to 32M 3181 0.3
Up to 64M 92612 8.8
Up to 128M 421002 40.1
Up to 256M 353371 33.7
Up to 512M 160606 15.3
Up to 1024M 17572 1.7
Greater than 1024M 598 0.1
CPU SPEED
number percent
Less than 200MHz 2196 0.2
200MHz to 300MHz 16448 1.6
300MHz to 400MHz 61731 5.9
400MHz to 500MHz 136081 13.0
500MHz to 600MHz 120328 11.5
600MHz to 700MHz 109367 10.4
700MHz to 800MHz 156958 15.0
800MHz to 900MHz 148732 14.2
900MHz to 1000MHz 82600 7.9
1.0GHz to 1.1GHz 65478 6.2
1.1GHz to 1.2GHz 16092 1.5
1.2GHz to 1.3GHz 34834 3.3
1.3GHz to 1.4GHz 33581 3.2
1.4GHz to 1.5GHz 35543 3.4
1.5GHz to 1.6GHz 13909 1.3
1.6GHz to 1.7GHz 7426 0.7
1.7GHz to 1.8GHz 4829 0.5
1.8GHz to 1.9GHz 1577 0.2
1.9GHz to 2.0GHz 957 0.1
Greater than 2GHz 282 0.0
Video Card
number percent
Riva TNT2 230451 22.0
GeForce2 MX 215993 20.6
Microsoft Corporation GDI Generic 186315 17.8
GeForce2 GTS 66226 6.3
Intel 810 55742 5.3
Voodoo 3 42296 4.0
GeForce 256 28181 2.7
Riva TNT 21352 2.0
Rage 128 19902 1.9
GeForce3 18370 1.8
SiS 630 15915 1.5
Intel Intel Solano 13530 1.3
S3 Savage4 12704 1.2
Rage 128 Pro 10849 1.0
Others 111123 10.6
Once again, please keep in mind, this survey was done almost a year ago, and polled people that use their system primarily for online gaming.
I think that over a million respondants would qualify as a valid cross section of the online gaming community.
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That does nothing to tell me what the customers of AH have... and that's all that matters.
How many of them bought pre-made computers? A lot? Some?
Many of those have shoddy video cards, ranging from old Intel to old S3 chipsets and the majority being old SiS chipsets.
Anyway, if I continue typing I will only end up repeating myself.
So from now on, my standard reply to this thread will be: "Read one of my other replies in this thread."
-SW
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Polls?
Golly, I dont recall a poll when we went from DirectX 6.x to 8, or when 1.05 came out and required a bigger video card to support the ships, etc.
So, we shouldn't dare desire better graphics because its just a big hardship for the guys at HTC and not fair to those who can't/refuse to upgrade?
Oh bruther.
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Wulfe:
They are overworked in the sense that they do a LOT more with a much SMALLER team than any other development team out there. They spend most of their time building stuff for the game. Besides that, HiTech said from the getgo he wants his team to remain small. Needlessly hiring people just for a temporary upgrade may not be something he wants to do. This isn't his first time building a computer game, he did WarBirds afterall.
Did HT send you an e-mail or any other notification on being overworked or that his staff capacity has reached the limit??
If not, you are making assumptions.
Plp launch ideas about whishes they have, which you obviously don't want. Doesn't mean that these whishes are not worth anything to HT because you assume he doesn't have any capacity to work em.
If that is the case we better stop suggesting anything until HT asks for it.
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Now your just ignoring facts Wulfe.
First you say the poll is too small. Now I give you over 1 million repondants from the online gaming commmunity, the pool within which Aces High draws its customer base, and you say it's invalid.
Now you're just ignoring the facts, because they don't suit your position.
This has become an exasperating waste of time. My point is made. So MY future response to this thread will be, DO THE MATH.
Oh, BTW, I flew the snapshot last night, with Nimitz as Flight lead. He's a hell of a good commander. You're squad is fortunate to have him.
AKNimitz
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Apar- "Did HT send you an e-mail or any other notification on being overworked or that his staff capacity has reached the limit??"
Hmmm, I said this: "They are overworked in the sense that they do a LOT more with a much SMALLER team than any other development team out there. They spend most of their time building stuff for the game."
Stop taking my words out of context, nothing aggrivates me more than that and having to repeat myself.
"Plp launch ideas about whishes they have, which you obviously don't want."
Reread one of the several other replies I have in this thread. I so do not want to repeat myself, yet again.
"Doesn't mean that these whishes are not worth anything to HT because you assume he doesn't have any capacity to work em."
Again, reread one of my other replies in this thread. I do not want to repeat myself again.
Did I say not to suggest it? No. I suggest you go back a reread one of my many replies in this thread. Or all of them, it's quite apparent you either did not read them or do not understand them.
LePaul- DX is a free upgrade. New computer systems cost money. I can run DX8.1 on a Pentium 166 with a 4MB VGA card.
As for the rest of your presumptions, reread one of my other replies in this thread, I would really hate to have to repeat myself until you finally get what I'm saying.
I'm not the one who needs to know what every user has in their system, HT is. You want new graphics? Do a poll and get every customer's system config. Give it to HT. Bet you he'll either tell you he's about to do a new graphics pack, or isn't based on the results of that poll.
Easy enough, try to understand it this time.
-SW
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Now your just ignoring facts Wulfe.
First you say the poll is too small. Now I give you over 1 million repondants from the online gaming commmunity, the pool within which Aces High draws its customer base, and you say it's invalid.
Now you're just ignoring the facts, because they don't suit your position.
This has become an exasperating waste of time. My point is made. So MY future response to this thread will be, DO THE MATH.
The facts are you got a poll of people who do not play AH. This is not representative of AH. That's the poll you need, and it needs to be of the entire customer base. THAT'S BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
The facts are you got a poll of people who do not play AH. This is not representative of AH. That's the poll you need, and it needs to be of the entire customer base. THAT'S BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.
-SW
So, if AH has 4000 subscribers, and they poll and get 2000 responses, you're saying that would be invalid too?
That is so ridiculous, it's beyond comprehension.
You've got over a million online gamers in the poll I showed you! You're telling me NONE of them play Aces High? You're going to sit there and say AH players are a breed apart from the rest of the online gaming community? You honestly believe an AH player has a different rig than the rest of the online gaming world? What color is the sky in your world? Geeez!
Please. Just stop.
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I've played FPS games, you always need the top of the line rig in those games.
I've played combat flight sims, you don't always need the top of the line rig and some people do not have top of the line rigs if it's not needed.
"So, if AH has 4000 subscribers, and they poll and get 2000 responses, you're saying that would be invalid too?"
Now you are just making assumptions. I would consider getting half of AH's customers responses would be a good start and pretty good basis for what to do next.
I would not say that 62 people is good at all, that is in fact insufficient.
"That is so ridiculous, it's beyond comprehension."
What's ridiculous is how you already answered that for me and made the assumption. But hey, it's nice that you can make up my mind for me.
"You've got over a million online gamers in the poll I showed you! You're telling me NONE of them play Aces High? You're going to sit there and say AH players are a breed apart from the rest of the online gaming community? You honestly believe an AH player has a different rig than the rest of the online gaming world? What color is the sky in your world? Geeez!"
Million online gamers? Hmmm, that wouldn't even come close to half of the people that play FPS games.
Flight sims have always been a niche market, and that's a fact. Some of those people may play Aces High, I dunno, but probably not more than a handful.
I do believe that there's a lot of people out there who play games that don't know the first thing about computers. They just bought it off the shelf. I see it on every gaming message board I go to, "Is this good enough for..."
But a poll for FPS gamers does not fit the bill for someone who plays flight sims, air combat sims, or RPGs.. there are entirely different requirements for each.
Like I said, poll the AH customers- they are the ones who matter.
"Please. Just stop."
I would ask the same of you, but you continue to go on despite obviously not knowing how to develop a game for a small market that requires keeping the majority of your current customers while at the same time trying to pull more in.
-SW
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well i used the results and extrapolated them using moose's law and heres what I got. (see attached) I am no marketing expert but I would say that to capture 95% of all possible users a decent minimum spec would be 500 MHz cpu with TNT2 for 20 FPS, and a recommended system of 733 MHz with at least a GF1 (or equivalent ie V5500) for 30 fps. (about 80% of the market meets this recommended spec).
This seems pretty reasonable, specially considering that the above mentioned systems were near "top of the line" 3 and 2 years ago respectively. I would say the maximum life of a gaming system is 3 years, with a 2 year life for optimum gameplay.
Where am I in the curve? I am at about the 85% mark (1700 mhz and gf3). (my system is 9 months old)
You can also get some interesting data form this too:
If you buy a new system today, about 20% of people will own a better system within 1 year.
About 80% within 2 years.
About 95% within 3 years.
Which all fits pretty well with what I would expect (I would expect most people upgrade on about an 18 month cycle (which is pretty close to what I do) .
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By Q1 of 2003, I'd say that the majority of people would have GF2s and 1Ghz as a minimum system.
There would still be slower systems out there, but the minority is not something you hold game development back for.
I have only been attempting to tell you all in this thread who have been repeatedly arguing with me WHY HTC has not done a graphics overhaul yet, and probably won't do one until atleast 1.12 or whatever the upgrade will be #d after the next upgrade.
At that point, the graphics overhaul will be worthwhile. HTC can take advantage of new DX features, and new card features. This in turn benefits the end user by giving him far more features and development time not being held up to continue support for old graphics or slower systems.
HTC doesn't lose a whole lot of customers by cutting out a bunch of people, and the customers get a bunch of nice eye candy.
It's win/win at that point.. at this point it's iffy unless you can prove that the majority of AH players would either upgrade or already have.
-SW
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I have IL-2 and WBIII. IL-2 has the best graphics but both have one thing in common.
Neither are "plug and play". My system isn't a screamer. 1.2 T-bird, GF 2 pro and 512 of DDR. Now by using NVmax and Tweakme, nudging it here, fiddling with it there, doing this, playing with that I can run both games pretty well. I built it as a gaming rig..Was cutting edge a year or so ago :D
I submit the "average" sim pilot isn't going to go "there" He bought his machine at CompUSA and has never seen the inside of it. Probably paid a couple of grand for it too :eek: He pushes the button......and it comes on :)
Graphics are why he showed up, it doesn't run on his system and he's gone. WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT WON'T RUN ??? I JUST BOUGHT IT ????
WB is on the verge of release of a retail boxed CD. How long are the "thousands" of new customers going to stay when their FPS is in the low twenties unless they know how to tweak their toybox ?? It's pretty, it doesn't run. You mean a GF 3 and 512 of RAM doesn't come stock in the Dell I just bought ???
WHASSSSUP WIT DAT ???
AH while somewhat dated in graphics does one thing VERY well. Gameplay. Gameplay keeps customers. Graphics may bring them through the door, but gameplay keeps them.
Anyone I talk to about trying this game out, my advise is: Don't fly offline. Get in the arena and play. It's the play that hooks the customer.
This game IS "plug and play" and that in itself is a HUGE plus to the average person.
If this company had the brains to put out the current product, I have no doubt they have the brains for a graphic upgrade. Good track record. No ??
Just desaturate the blue sky a little and I'm a happy camper :D
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Well I came across this which appears was an interview with Hitech at this years Con. Sounds like about a year away in Hitechs view.
Sabre: Fair enough. Let's wrap this up with just a few general questions. The graphics engine Aces High uses right now works pretty well. It provides pretty good frame rates for people with more modest computers. When do you see that there'll be a need for a major upgrade to the graphics engine?
HiTech: That would be in about a year's time frame when we'll need to start on that. The cool stuff you can do with the new video cards out there hasn't really been a big deal
until they came out with pixel shaders. Pixel shaders were introduced in DirectXÔ 8.1, but hardly any hardware out there supported them. So it really wasn't worth implementing in the game. As we approach about a year from now, TNT-2's will pretty much be out of date and we'll be into all GForce2 stuff. I can push some vertex processing up onto the [video] boards and be assured it's not going to kill peoples' machines, and start adding in the neat-looking effects, the pixel shaders and that type of stuff.
Full link to the interview (this quote was from page 5):
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aceshigh_interview_2002/
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There is no question gameplay is everything when it comes to keeping customers. How many AH players play chess? I mean the board version. No bells, no whistles...just strategy and challenge.
But the question I must ask is, how long will it be before IL2, or another game comes up with more compelling game play, and has the graphics to boot? What will happen to Aces High then?
Hopefully, they will maintain their track record and still be ahead of the curve.
Personally, I bought my Dell and never tweaked it. I've played online games for quite some time, and knew what specs make the system. I have never opened the case, nor do I intend to. (Why bother, the system is only 9 months old).
I should hope, though, that anyone intelligent enough to have $2000 in disposable income would do their homework before buying a system.
There's no question in my mind, Aces High is a great game. There is very few things in this world that can keep me up until 2am when I have to be at work at 7.
And I think there should be OTHER improvements made before a Graphics remodel is done.
Better strat system, more roles for heavy bombers, troops that both attack and defend cities. (You guys like shooting chutes, imagine strafing a column of troops controlled by real players.)
Sooner, or later, though, we're going to need the eye-candy. Of course, I want it now now now, but I'll just have to wait.
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I don't disagree with you on any of that Muck.
Well, except for "what happens when Il2..." the problem with those games is that you need the absolute top of the line to play 'em.
For example, when Forgotten Battles comes out, I think Oleg said a minimum of a GF3 was required for the new features they have implemented. Then on top of that, Il2 is limited MP capabilities. And Il2's gameplay is set in stone. FB appears to be the same style in terms of Multi-Play. AH, WBIII and FA3 are not in competition with Il2, CFSIII or any other limited MP boxed game.
Some people who pay to play games(monthly) can't justify paying to play it plus paying to upgrade. Some can, some can't. There is a fine line you need to dance there to keep the already established customer base, while bringing in more players.
I build my own systems, while I only have a couple hundred to spare I upgrade piece meal style and by cannibilising much of my old system(s).
Anyhow, I'm not the average computer user. I will sit at my desk for hours on end tweaking it and tweaking it and tweaking it to get the most out of it. Many of the average computer user's also don't spend a whole lot on a brand new system.. when they can just as easily buy one of those E-machines (ugh), or any of the other pre-built low cost machines. Some people do their homework, others just buy what they can when they can and whatever the salesperson convinces them to buy.
Anyway, HiTech made it very clear that he's waiting. I was only conveying that message, and was berated for it.
-SW
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if you got 2000 votes out of 4000
but there arnt 4000 players and iot would be invalid if there were all only hth or MA players. and if you only got 64 out of however many players there are it would be invalid. a sample would have to get at least 1/5 of the entire AH community. and it would have to include the hth players. if you got only the MA players for a poll on better graphicsd it would be invalid because theres a relativly large hth community.
imo the graphics on AH are fine. sure theres room for improvement but if they do to much work on it then the people with poorer graphics cards and cpus will have to leave and the low end computer users make up a large portion of the AH community. and your forgetting price. natedog and superfly would have to spend months developing better graphics wich would mean the price that we have to pay for the MA would increase. one of the major draws to AH is its low price and the 2 week free trial. how many people who play AH actually play it at the really high screen resolutions? probably not many. most people are playing at 1024-768 resolution or lower either for reasons of small screens or because there computers CANNOT HANDLE IT. a new graphics engine would mean that playing at 600by480 will take the same power as running at 1024by768. you have to be running a nvida 2+ graphics card with a minimun 900mhz and a 17 inch screen to run it at 1024 by 768 and still get a fps of over 50. i played it on a 650mhz with some outdated graphics card once and i was running it in 640 by 480 and it looked like CRAP and i was pulling a fps of 20 barely.
How many AH players play chess?
well i know i do
there thats my rant for the day
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I'm just afraid of tweaking the system. I did that with my old system, and it was one nightmare after another. This piece conflicting with that, driver updates, hours on the phone with tech support that knows even less than me.
I'm the kind of guy who will run a system until I can't play my favorite games anymore, and then either buy a new one, or make desperate upgrades to keep the thing on life support until funds permit a new system.
I really use my system for very limited purposes:
Aces High (The reason I bought the system)
Civ 3 (When I get sick of getting shot down)
E-bay (Supplimental income stream)
Porn (Self-explanitory)
I agree with what your saying, SW. HT does know what he is capable and not capable of doing. His team has yet to disappoint me.
The part of your posts that made me crazy was about the average system specs of the AH user. Still this is been one of the better debates I've had on this board.
I hope you don't take anything personally. It's just like a political debate. People with different views butt heads for an hour, and then shake hands and move on.
A graphics upgrade would be nice, but if it impacts gameplay, or threatens the AH community, than it is simply not worth it.
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Hey, I never said the average system specs of the AH players. I dunno.. that's why I wanted the AH players to be polled. :)
I didn't take anything personally, we did manage to beat the hell out of this thread and drag it all over the place though. ;)
Anyhow, it's time to move on and go back to ruthlessly killing each other in AH with no remorse.
See ya up in the pasty blue virtual skies just above the glossy coat reflective terrain. :)
-SW
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After this little debate, I might actually hesitate before pulling the trigger on an AK........
NAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH:D
See you up, SW
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Included in the latest update releases to Half-Life software, the survey requests validation of the user's system, thus ensuring highly accurate data collection. Since its launch last Wednesday, the survey has had over 300,000 participants, and is expected to continue compiling data for the next few months.
LOL! Limiting their sample to a specific genre... omitting some very obvious points...
Competitive gamers? Most of these are already sending their $$$ somewhere. So, are you trying to get these 300,000 participants to come over to your game... or the 20 million that purchased computers last year?
Damn guys... you're all just saying the same thing over and over and nobody is really listening.
Everyone would like to see better graphics. Eventually, the low end systems MUST be replaced in order to keep up. Its really that "simple".
Where this thread goes astray is simply by assuming that HTC is not aware of this and is not planning for it. What makes people think that HTC must meet their specific time table? HiTech has stated that a graphics overhaul is on the agenda. Why isn't that enough?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by gatt
Its really hard to believe that GF2 and 1GHz CPU is not the standard, the average system that is. It means that there are so many TNT-GF1 around ... ? And again, I dont think that graphics is the main issue, nor the d/l size. Take a look at how many players FA and IL-2 have and at the size of their d/l. Development pace, crew size, strategic choice ... these are arguments I can agree with. But not for a long time.
All I can say is this:
I know a lot of people who, if they had to choose between buying a newer graphics card to play AH, or dropping AH altogether, would look at their household balance sheet and, with great regret, cancel their accounts.
Sure, if you're single and employed, buying a new graphics card is no big deal. If you're married, with children and a mortgage, and a spouse who stays at home to mind the children, it becomes a bigger deal.
I know people who want to play Aces High alredy, but cannot because their machines are too far behind the times.
I remember that my squad was torn asunder when AW3 came out, because not everybody had a machine that could run it.
Remember, not everybody has enough disposable cash to keep close to the leading edge on hardware, and still afford the fees of an online game. You can say "this is standard" or "that is standard," but the fact is, you can't really tell based on what is selling in the stores.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
COMPUTER SYSTEM MAKEUP Over 50% of participants have between 256 and 512 MB RAM installed and the average CPU speed of those surveyed is between 700-800Mhz
VIDEO CARD The most popular video card features Nvidia's GeForce2 chip; Nvidia just released their GeForce3 chip this past spring.
Huh? By my reading, the most popular chipset is the TNT2, followed by the GF2.
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they combined the GF2 MX and GF2 GTS as one GF2 to come up with the "most common." funny considering the MX and GTS are nothing alike, in terms of specs and performance.
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Stop taking my words out of context, nothing aggrivates me more than that and having to repeat myself.
Why don't you use font size 500 to express your aggravation a bit more SWulfe.
You can shout what ya want, it doesn't impress me at all,
I got tired reading your replies. You come walsing into a threat with a descent suggestion, by jumping on the bandwagon of AH cheerleader.
Ever wondered if it pays off???
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You can shout what ya want, it doesn't impress me at all,
I increased the size of the font so you could read it. Apparently that didn't work, oh well...
I got tired reading your replies. You come walsing into a threat with a descent suggestion, by jumping on the bandwagon of AH cheerleader.
AH Cheerleader? Nah, but I read all of the interviews and his posts... which not many in this thread obviously don't. So when I see yet another thread about something answered in an interview, damn right I'm gonna reply.
Ever wondered if it pays off???
Does incessant complaining ever pay off for you guys?
-SW
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I think it does, looking at the fortified P38, yep, ;)