Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Widewing on September 03, 2002, 07:49:29 AM
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I was surprised to learn that the #1 rated bomber pilot has never flown a single bomber sortie, never dropped a single bomb. He has attained his stature via field captures alone. I think that it's time to set up a seperate scoring category for field captures, exclusive of bomber or vehicle score. Indeed, this may be the ultimate "gaming the game" situation. Likewise, at least one of the leading scorers has accumulated the majority of their kills by "vulching" (I've made a point of observing this). Since no major air force in WWII counted kills of aircraft on the ground in the "official" total, why does HTC do so? Perhaps they should be counted as fractional kills, assuming that such a thing is possible in terms of programming. Maybe no kill should be awarded, just the perk points. Frankly, if you can't kill 'em in the air, or won't fly a bomber, you should not be ranked at or near the top in either category. Maybe I'm mistakenly expecting a WWII sim to reflect the real world just a bit, rather than an Nintendo arcade game.....
If these changes were employed, we would see some of the high ranking pilot's gamey scores go straight into the toilet, where, in my opinion, they belong. :D
Quietly awaiting the howls of indignation by the "gamers".... ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Field Captures in vehicles dont seem to count for anything.
One of the things that kind of bugs me is kill/death ratio. You can guarentee a high kill ratio by flying the lowest eny planes, such as the la7, niki, p51, etc. Someone who can maintain a 1 to 1 kill ratio flying a 202, is going to be a much better pilot than a pilot who can maintain the same kill ratio in an la7. I'd like to see a stat added below k/d ratio which would take the planes you fly into account. A simple way would be to just create a ratio of perks earned / perks given (Dropping the end of sortie multipliers) So the people who can maintain good kill ratios, in lesser aircraft, are rewarded. It would also be nice to see the number of damage points earned also be based on your plane. Why not have the ENY of your plane affect scoring as well as perks earned?
Anyways that that horse has been beaten a bit, The problem with removing scoring for vulching is that it will just have people hanging out 15k over a field waiting for an easy kill. Capturing a base would be nearly impossible without vulchers, except in milkruns. That or, it would simply be circumvented by killing people the moment they leave the ground. Fractional kills for killing planes on the ground really might be good though.
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I agree.would like to see medium and heavy bombers separate from light bombers and C47s. Guys using bombsites would be able to see how their doing.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Field Captures in vehicles dont seem to count for anything.
One of the things that kind of bugs me is kill/death ratio. You can guarentee a high kill ratio by flying the lowest eny planes, such as the la7, niki, p51, etc. Someone who can maintain a 1 to 1 kill ratio flying a 202, is going to be a much better pilot than a pilot who can maintain the same kill ratio in an la7. I'd like to see a stat added below k/d ratio which would take the planes you fly into account. A simple way would be to just create a ratio of perks earned / perks given (Dropping the end of sortie multipliers) So the people who can maintain good kill ratios, in lesser aircraft, are rewarded. It would also be nice to see the number of damage points earned also be based on your plane. Why not have the ENY of your plane affect scoring as well as perks earned?
Anyways that that horse has been beaten a bit, The problem with removing scoring for vulching is that it will just have people hanging out 15k over a field waiting for an easy kill. Capturing a base would be nearly impossible without vulchers, except in milkruns. That or, it would simply be circumvented by killing people the moment they leave the ground. Fractional kills for killing planes on the ground really might be good though.
mmm if u got a 1 to 1 K/D in La7, then ur not flying very well.
at 1 time this tour i had a 37 to 1 K/D in La7 with 2 of 3 deaths to Ack. its lower now, couple augers and 2 or 3 purpose augers(had to leave game quick) has brought it down. but a competent pilot should be able to hold a 10+K/D easy in La7. but most barely hold a 2 to 1. only thing that makes high K/D in La7 hard is everyone wants to jump on u 1st :)
whels
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Originally posted by Innominate
Field Captures in vehicles dont seem to count for anything.
One of the things that kind of bugs me is kill/death ratio. You can guarentee a high kill ratio by flying the lowest eny planes, such as the la7, niki, p51, etc. Someone who can maintain a 1 to 1 kill ratio flying a 202, is going to be a much better pilot than a pilot who can maintain the same kill ratio in an la7. I'd like to see a stat added below k/d ratio which would take the planes you fly into account. A simple way would be to just create a ratio of perks earned / perks given (Dropping the end of sortie multipliers) So the people who can maintain good kill ratios, in lesser aircraft, are rewarded. It would also be nice to see the number of damage points earned also be based on your plane. Why not have the ENY of your plane affect scoring as well as perks earned?
Anyways that that horse has been beaten a bit, The problem with removing scoring for vulching is that it will just have people hanging out 15k over a field waiting for an easy kill. Capturing a base would be nearly impossible without vulchers, except in milkruns. That or, it would simply be circumvented by killing people the moment they leave the ground. Fractional kills for killing planes on the ground really might be good though.
I'm not advocating eliminating vulching, just limiting the effect it has upon scoring. Besides, any knucklehead who respawns 12 times deserves what he gets. ;) I just find it unfortunate that people generate a high rank with a minimum of air to air kills. Now, I understand that some people have no regard for score. But, they might if it actually meant something.
As far as flying high ENY aircraft, I gained the vast majority of my kills flying the FM-2/F4F-4 and SBD. Ill use a Dora or P-51 (both B and D) should circumstances require altitude and speed. Likewise, Ill grab a C-Hog once in a while, or a Niki should the situation require (needing cannons for popping PTs or GVs). I also enjoy the Ki-61, Yaks and C.205. More than ever before, I spent a lot of time in bombers and GVs. Yet, I had just 3 field captures, largely because I find flying C-47s and driving M3s rather dull. Theres another gamey aspect that I dislike, proximity kills. I picked up several while defending CVs. Id get a few snapshot pings on an attacker, but not enough to kill him. However, the AI ack would finish the job and Id get the kill anyway. I was scolded by some guy who was flying around a CV collecting proxies. He was very upset that I had taken off, cause I was stealing his kills by actually flying out a few miles and shooting down the enemy.. Go figure.
I agree, scoring should be based upon difficulty as well as total numbers. Certainly, a guy getting his kills in a C.202 or F4F-4 should receive a better score than a guy getting a similar number of kills in a Lavochkin or Dora or the like thereof.
My regards,
Widewing
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(had to leave game quick)
We now know that Whels is playing at the Office :D baaad baaad baaad!
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I've met whels in Lakeland. He ain't playing at the office.
So far this term, the only times I've been popped in an LA-7 was when I was bounced by multiple bandits. I usually fly whatever shot me down last (except the N1K2 - I ain't that big a dweeb), but I'll use the LA-7 for base defense and will engage multiple counters and am heavily outnumbered. One example: last night I was patrolling the air corridor between two bases to intercept a massive raid. I was climbing up to a N1K2 when a higher N1k2 bounced me from behind. He didn't kill me, but I did have to break off my attack with a smoking engine, no rudder, no right elevator, and no flaps. I then dove out and made a smoking 1-way run over the enemy launch point, trailing a P-51 and both N1K2s. A Spitfire joined our parade somewhere along the way. I zoomed over the field but missed my attack on a 109 that was upping (no rudder and missing an elevator makes gunnery tricky). As I circled around for another run, either the airfield flak or one of the pursuing aircraft got me. At any rate, I counted it as a moral victory because I managed to tie up 4 aircraft and spoil their raid.
If you're banging 10 kills a run, then you're obviously catching a lot of your targets when they're preoccupied with another plane. Either you have a sucker for a wingman or you're fishing in the bait ball! :)
Cakes ^Skull^
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I would be for the removal of the score system altogether :-)
Any system they put is is going to be exploited there is no way around it. So take it out and let people track their stats for personal enjoyment if thats what they want. Maybe people would start playing the game instead of playing the score system then.
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Originally posted by whels
mmm if u got a 1 to 1 K/D in La7, then ur not flying very well.
at 1 time this tour i had a 37 to 1 K/D in La7 with 2 of 3 deaths to Ack. its lower now, couple augers and 2 or 3 purpose augers(had to leave game quick) has brought it down. but a competent pilot should be able to hold a 10+K/D easy in La7. but most barely hold a 2 to 1. only thing that makes high K/D in La7 hard is everyone wants to jump on u 1st :)
whels
Whels..Who cares!...We are talking about fixing the scoring for bombers.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Whels..Who cares!...We are talking about fixing the scoring for bombers.
ook , i have no problem scoring in Buffs even with the new bombsite. :)
whels
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On side note....
Since no major air force in WWII counted kills of aircraft on the ground in the "official" total, why does HTC do so?
I think if you look,,,, The U.S. did late in war.
CAV
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Yea, the scoring system is not perfect. No matter how you change it there will be better ways to get ranked higher than other ways. I think there is room for tweaking (more impact on landing kills even though now its a huge factor), but the ranking system does tend to show general ability, so long as you understand it is a manipulatable system, that very often penalizes those who help their country the most (emergency base defenders who die 10-1 but save the base), and rewards those who risk the least (spawn point campers anyone)
BTW, I love the idea that goon drivers get high bomber ranking...its a boring and dificult job...WTG GOONERS!
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A new stat: length of time between sortie beginning and death for the unit just killed.
'spawn point campers' and those who are masters of the 'fighter sweep vs. an enemy airfield with no active AAA and 10 to 1 friendly odds in area' may want this new stat to not exist.
OR
Revamp the whole scoring system and make it like this:
Record air to air kills.
Record air to ground kills.
Record ground to ground kills.
Record ground to air kills.
Record # lbs. of HE delivered vs. enemy ground structures.
When you die or are captured...all values set to ZERO.
Highest streak at the end of a TOD wins per category.
Mike/wulfie
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Here's a suggestion: Get a freakin' life.
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Originally posted by ET
I agree.would like to see medium and heavy bombers separate from light bombers and C47s. Guys using bombsites would be able to see how their doing.
You already can, there are lots of ranked stats - though they might not earn you a bumber sticker, you can indeed see how you are doing.
NOW if someone would have a more sortable webpage for the scoring this would be interesting. Some guy might get off on knowing he captured more fields than anyone else - another that he scored more ground target kills - just make a webpage that enables sorting of the data.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Since no major air force in WWII counted kills of aircraft on the ground in the "official" total, why does HTC do so?
My regards,
Widewing
Gabreski's vulches were included into his official kill tally.
Grabreski (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/gabby.html)
Ack-Ack
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I generally never up in fighters with an ENY higher than 25 and enjoy flying both of the magnificent <60>s. If I get any kills in our LA7, Spit IX, P51D, F4U, NIKI, maxxed out arena, I consider it a minor miracle. But I recognize that this also means I will never make it into the top 500, much less the top 100.
The only place where this really becomes a pain for me is when it comes to the CVs. Nothing is more irritating than trying to shepherd a CV to a sensible and important objective, and suddenly having control ripped away by a 15 year old F4U dweeb who wants to send it on a suicide run so he can have the shortest possible flight time.
But hey, I can't even think of a solution for that, other than spending the first part of the month "gaming the game" per Fork's recent suggestions, which I'm loathe to do.
Yup, this is just a meaningless whine, a gripe, a "life's unfair" protest message. No further action is necessary.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by CAV
On side note....
I think if you look,,,, The U.S. did late in war.
CAV
Not in the "official" totals. The 8th AF did allow claims for ground kills to encourage strafing, but these were disallowed later.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, looking at the stats, how do you see field capture only?
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Originally posted by hitech
Widewing, looking at the stats, how do you see field capture only?
it was probably that "tween" updates glitch, where occasionally someone will find themselves ranked #1 in something until the next update and they get put back in their proper place.
altho' if you look at the top 5 buffers, you'll see most have relatively few sorties with a high % being captures.
1. cuckoo - 42 sorties, 21 captures.
2. gale - 22 sorties, 8 captures.
3. brady5 - 58 sorties, 10 captures.
4. turbot - 146 sorties, 4 captures - reasonable amt, imho.
5. xs - 78 sorties, 7 captures.
as you can see, none of these, except maybe turbot, would be considered a "buff dweeb." yet, the rankings for buffers at least, seems to be skewed toward "captures" and hit% and dmg per sortie - the last two which i think are ok since it generally implies they're hitting high density (read, strat/towns) targets and not trying to work over a field.
i think the point is, the ranks are biased towards captures and using lanc 4kers to increase hit% and dmg per sortie on high density targets. (how else can you explain a 506% hit rate?)
the dedicated "buffers" are basically excluded from being ranked very high, because they're often a) bombing under pressure b) getting killed often before drop and c) might not be "gooners."
maybe add a new category "captures" and do the juggling to factor it into over all rankings... i do see the incentive for encouraging people to goon/m3 capture, sort of, lol.
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Why aren't base captures included in vehicle scoring? Or are they, but they're just not shown on the in-game score list?
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Originally posted by Innominate
Why aren't base captures included in vehicle scoring? Or are they, but they're just not shown on the in-game score list?
they are and they are. and again, they weigh heavily in the ranking.
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Originally posted by hitech
Widewing, looking at the stats, how do you see field capture only?
Hitech, I have looked at the stats. Furthermore, Ive made a point of watching the player in question since we usually fly during the same time period.
He has flown a total of 42 bomber sorties.
He has 21 field captures
He landed 36 sorties
He has 1 ditch
He has 4 deaths
He has lost 3 C-47s
He took up an IL-2 once and scored it as a bomber sortie. He died and gained no kills.
He has no bomber kills
He has no bomber deaths (other than the IL-2)
So, we know that he flew at least 24 C-47 sorties and 1 with IL-2 for a total of 25. That leaves 17 sorties. I have personally witnessed him fly several C-47 sorties where he did not capture the field. Ill wager large that all of the remaining sorties where exactly like that, especially when most players get about one capture per 2 sorties flown (if they are lucky). Beyond this, I have seen discussions in the message buffer where others stated that they had never seen this player in a bomber, yet he was #1. Thats what aroused my interest. Indeed, there is no evidence that he has flown a bomber even once this tour.
However, lets assume the impossible and say that he did fly 17 bomber sorties. Should someone with that tiny number of sorties be ranked #1?
Now, look at the #2 ranked bomber pilot. Ill bet he hasnt flown more than 1 or 2 bomber sorties this tour either. Lumping in field captures with bomber sorties allows for this gamey scoring that takes away from the guys who labor long hours in slow climbing bombers. Give the Goon runners all the credit they truly deserve. However, it should not be at the expense of those who REALLY fly bombers. Creating a separate category for field captures will accomplish this.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
However, lets assume the impossible and say that he did fly 17 bomber sorties. Should someone with that tiny number of sorties be ranked #1?
Widewing
my bet is the remaining 17 were lancs w/4k-ers, explaining the hit%. one 1k-er *can* take out about 2 acks, and 2-3 bldgs if placed properly in a town, i'm a fairly good town whacker and my hit % in the attack category reflects this.
perhaps one can get 4-6 bldgs destroyed msgs if place properly at some high-density strat strat target....
in any case, you can bet the hit% and dmg are attributable to milking enemy starts that are safely ensconced behind his own front lines - hence, very little risk.
yeah, it's all too easy to "game the stats" for rankings, which is why people say... ranks are meaningless, except to one's self.
case in point, i just raised my veh hit % (which will have an impact on my rank, altho' small at this point) by 20% from .037 to about .054 simply by upping an m16 at a VH and emptying my ammo load on my *own* vh - done just to prove this point.
as for that great 106% dmg vs obj in veh, the only way to get #'s in that category is by using a pt boat... all i can think of is he or someone de-acked a base/strat close to shore, then ran a PT boat up close enough to do some damage. i got 8% by trying to take out a strat (city) with a pt-boat but could never get close enuff before acks popped me (but i did launch some rckts and got lucky - resulting in that %.)
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Turbot, I know there are plenty of stats out there but Im interested in how I'm measuring up with the new bombsight. The only way I can tell is to see how others working with the new sight are doing. I can't tell right now because the bomber stats include C47s and I believe the small bombers too. I'd like a category that only has the bombers that have to use the new bombsight. Mainly the medium and heavy bombers. I and probably many others have worked hard trying to learn the set up and when the C47s and dive bombers (bombers you can select attack or bomb with) are mixed in with them it skews the figures. Any time I want to up my bomber stats right now I can run a couple of goons on base capture and do it. Most folk know this. Thats why I'd like to see a category for bombsight users only.
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Amen, Brother Raub!!
Hey Raub, we should buy stock in Puffs Plus tissue?
:)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Yup, this is just a meaningless whine, a gripe, a "life's unfair" protest message. No further action is necessary.
- SEAGOON
I've started using Widewing's posts as a reminder to pay my rent and bills since they always seem to come at the end of every month.
Ack-Ack
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Shit, rent IS due, isn't it.
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How about we fix the bomber bugs before ANYTHING else gets done...kthnxdrivethru......
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Bad guess! Widewing :mad:
I flied in Lancaster and C47 as bomber, not iL2.
I fly in iL2 as attacker.
You need to understand the AH soring system more, I think.:D
Even if you fly in goon with only one sortie, you can capture many enemy bases.:p
Even if you drop eggs on enmy fields, your hit percentage can be over 400%.
If you drop egg on high densed target ( factories or town), your hit percentage can be 1,200% at maximum.:D
In my opinion, bomers jobs are to destroy enmy object, not to kill enmy fighters.:cool:
Field captures are very important job for your country.
We can not win without field captures.
If you enjoy in AH for only your self-satisfaction, its OK, its not my business.
However, you should not complain of the scoring system without understanding this system.
If you are interest with scoring, do your best for score and show your best result.
Do your best before criticizing the scoring sytem or the other players' score, even if hte scoring system is not perfect.
If you are not interested with scoring, don't complain to other gents about their scores.
In tour 31, I did my best to get good score and to work for rookland.
The score don't show that I do good flight. (almost players know it)
Many many friends always help me and many many friends cheered me.
I could not get rank #1 without many friends help and support.
Thank you very much all gents.
Almost players know that real aces are Fester, Hermit, Lazer, Blade, Fariz, Dmdcoach, SirLoin Trikky SUPONGO, Concho, Hitech ....... and many many great fighters are in AH, not me.;)
Just only I like the number 1, the 1 1 1 1 is Jackpot.
If the score is slot machine, I will get much dollars. :D
CUCKOO
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Originally posted by CUCKOO
Bad guess! Widewing :mad:
I flied in Lancaster and C47 as bomber, not iL2.
I fly in iL2 as attacker.
You need to understand the AH soring system more, I think.:D
Even if you fly in goon with only one sortie, you can capture many enemy bases.:p
Even if you drop eggs on enmy fields, your hit percentage can be over 400%.
If you drop egg on high densed target ( factories or town), your hit percentage can be 1,200% at maximum.:D
In my opinion, bomers jobs are to destroy enmy object, not to kill enmy fighters.:cool:
Field captures are very important job for your country.
We can not win without field captures.
If you enjoy in AH for only your self-satisfaction, its OK, its not my business.
However, you should not complain of the scoring system without understanding this system.
If you are interest with scoring, do your best for score and show your best result.
Do your best before criticizing the scoring sytem or the other players' score, even if hte scoring system is not perfect.
If you are not interested with scoring, don't complain to other gents about their scores.
In tour 31, I did my best to get good score and to work for rookland.
The score don't show that I do good flight. (almost players know it)
Many many friends always help me and many many friends cheered me.
I could not get rank #1 without many friends help and support.
Thank you very much all gents.
Almost players know that real aces are Fester, Hermit, Lazer, Blade, Fariz, Dmdcoach, SirLoin Trikky SUPONGO, Concho, Hitech ....... and many many great fighters are in AH, not me.;)
Just only I like the number 1, the 1 1 1 1 is Jackpot.
If the score is slot machine, I will get much dollars. :D
CUCKOO
Hmm... That's an awful lot of rationalization just to avoid admitting to gaming the game.
As to flying the IL-2 as an attacker, you better check your stats again. You have 4 bomber deaths, 3 with C-47. There are no other bomber deaths listed, other than the IL-2. So, wheres the 4th one?
Since we have gone this far, lets discuss your fighter score as well. What percentage of your kills did not come from vulching? Professional vulchers often have two main rides, N1K2 and the C-Hog. Why? Because they pack four cannon and a huge ammo load. Add to that the 110G-2, Hurricane and Typhoon. Guess what? 707 of your 809 kills in fighters are in those aircraft.
Tell ya what, fly a tour using the C.202, 109F-4, Yak, P-51B or FM-2, generate the same numbers and that'll be impressive. Don't fly Lancs, fly the D3A or SBD with limited bomb loads. Try something difficult. Avoid the path of least resistance, so to speak.
Now, if thats the way you wish to play, manipulating the score, be my guest. At least, we now know how you got a portion of your outstanding ranking in tour 31. ;)
If anyone ever wondered why so many people ignore scores, this is a prime example of their reasoning. Being able to manipulate the score does not encourage players to strive for score. Set up seperate categories for light and heavy bombers as well as field captures. Credit only partial kills for vulches and let's reduce the manipulation of scoring as well as providing players with an accurate look at how they are doing.
My regards,
Widewing
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Is there another side to this record?
...Gixer
The Horse Soldiers
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Widewing, in you view, exactly how should someone fly to get a good score ?
It apears to me cuckoo did a lot of different things, most of which helped his country.
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Widewing,,,,
either you need to pay for Cuckoo to play or you need to shut up and let him play the way HE wants to.
It is ok to comment about the game play as you see it, but don't make statements about the way other people play.
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Originally posted by hitech
Widewing, in you view, exactly how should someone fly to get a good score ?
It apears to me cuckoo did a lot of different things, most of which helped his country.
Well, first off, it's not my intention to pick specifically on Cuckoo. His score just happens to be the most prominent to use as an example. Regardless of how anyone gets over 1,000 kills, it is certainly a major contribution to his country, and I 'm not arguing otherwise.
I made a point of watching those high ranking players online when I'm flying. My purpose was to learn their secrets, and apply them. However, I came away somewhat dismayed when I watched them milkrunning and vulching their way to the top. I expected to find highly skilled pilots. What I discovered where methods to run up the score without taking much risk. Bombing isolated factory and city complexes (I tried it, and it sure bumps up one's score) and specifically looking for good vulching opportunities is low risk, high reward gaming. But, it's gaming pure and simple. I don't see a solution to milkrunning, but only giving half credit for vulch kills will encourage players to get their kills against enemies who can defend themselves to some degree (perhaps define a vulch as a kill of an aircraft within 100 ft of the ground, with gear lowered).
What I would like to see is greater emphasis placed upon surviving a sortie (when kills are gained).
In WWII the single greatest goal was to get planes, pilots and crews back alive. Everything else was secondary. Hitting the target was of limited value when most of your planes and aircrews failed to return. Who would fly the next mission, and what would they fly it in? Seriously, 5% loss rates where deemed unsustainable. In Aces High, there is no attrition, and the scoring does not sufficiently discourage getting shot down.
If kills are not scored until the pilot lands or successfully ditches his aircraft, players will think twice about their actions. As it stands now, you still get credit for kills even if you get killed yourself. K/D should have a greater influence than K/S and K/T.
For the record, all three of my scores in those categories are pretty good, so I'm not defending those who avoid fights.
My idea of how the system should work (for what that's worth), is the best scorers should also be among the best survivors. If you get killed, it should have a greater effect than how fast you killed the enemy, or how many you lumped into a sortie (which can be endlessly manipulated by hitting the rearm pad time and time again). Maybe there should be some value applied to scoring kill strings (consecutive kills without a loss).
Back to field captures. If this was a seperate scoring category, it may change a player's overall rank. It would also change the relative bombing rank of those who actually fly bombers on a regular basis, and force people to fly bombers to get their overall rating up. Likewise, it would force all others to particpate in field captures to improve their overall score.
So,
Limit the profitablity of being a professional vulcher.
Isolate field captures from bomber scores (if it doesn't have a bombsight, it should be classified as Attack).
Emphasize survival as a significant scoring factor (which might reduce the rash of recent suicide behavior).
Finally, factor in ENY into fighter scoring, rewarding the people who succeed in lower performance aircraft (this may somewhat reduce the hordes of La-7s, P-51s, N1K2s and so on).
The current system does not necessarily reward the most skilled pilots, but it does tend to reward the most skilled "gamers".
My regards,
Widewing
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ggaming the gameh. :confused:
Sorry, i can not understand this, because I'm not good at English.
You mean that I am gamer?
I can fly in only game, because I don't have flight license and have not operated a real airplane in real world.
As to flying the IL-2 as an attacker, you better check your stats again. You have 4 bomber deaths, 3 with C-47. There are no other bomber deaths listed, other than the IL-2. So, wherefs the 4th one?
You don't really understand the kill stat.
I don't intend to answer this question, because you don't make an effort to understand the kill stat by yourself.
The counts of death in ... = The counts of killed by .....
You always need to check your stat flight by flight.
Crashing to tree or object, the kill stat show what kind of aircraft kill you?
While you write in BBS, some modest gentlemen are researching on the scoring sytem, learning flight tecnique, working for their country, enjoying in main arena together with their friends, or busy in their real world.
Plese check the scoring system or the kill stat by yourself.
Fighter score
You did bad guess again.:mad:
I don't hesitate vulching, because the enemies chose to roll from vulched base though they have the other bases to roll.
Certainly I got many kills with vulching in NIK.
But almost kills in NIK are counted into attackers.
I got some victories as fighters with vulching certainly, though vulching are not always good for fighter score. Because enemy bases are farther than furball.
I know the best place for fighter score.
You need to look for the place by yourself.
Why? Because they pack four cannon and a huge ammo load. Add to that the 110G-2, Hurricane and Typhoon. Guess what? 707 of your 809 kills in fighters are in those aircraft. fly a tour using the C.202, 109F-4, Yak, P-51B or FM-2, generate the same numbers and that'll be impressive.
You don't understand me.
When I was newbie before you enter into AH, many many great friend tell me how to fly in G6, G10, D9, F6F and many planes, and tried to fly in my favorite G10 yak-U and ........
I like NIK spit ZERO cat G10 spit and many many planes too.
When I felt spits are most comfortable, i stopped flying in spits though I like spits too.
Whatever you fly in, its OK, it's not my buisiness.
Whatever I fly in, it's not your buisiness.
We have many choices of aircrafts.
You enjoy in SBD or FM2, its no problem, its good, I think.
But rooks fleet sunk many times, while you satisfied yourself in SBD without destroying Shore Battery with your keeping fleet command for long hours. It's not good, I think.
While you enjoyed killing enmy planes in ship gunner without your death, some gentlemen were attacking enmy bases or bring
goon for rookland and their pleasure with their death.
I tried to destroy quickly town, VH, acks and so on. Many friends supported my jobs. Its my pleasure.
At least, we now know how you got a portion of your outstanding ranking in tour 31.
Ohhhhhhh its good.
If you know it really, practise it by yourself and show how easily you get #1 by yourself.
I will not try to get #1 in tour 32, #1 is your turn.
It isn't as easy in practise as in theory. :cool:
My comments are followings;
1, Understand AH scoring system moe accurately.
2. Check all situation in main arena by yourself, not guess.
3, Don't forget that many many really good enemy fighters waiting for you to kill you in main arena.
4, Don't forget that many many good friendly fighters sometimes ( not always) try to support you, if you help them.
I hope that you don't complain about AH scoring system untill you understand hte system accurately.
I'm believing that AH staffs try to make system better with their efforts to accept some player's good comments in BBS.
Truly AH staffs made the scoring system better than that in tour 10 or 20.
AH staffs
You need to try and error in scoring system by your self before you answer somebodies it.
This message is last for you. Sorry not to reply in your next question.
CUCKOO CUCKOO CUCKOO
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Originally posted by Widewing
What I would like to see is greater emphasis placed upon surviving a sortie (when kills are gained).
In WWII the single greatest goal was to get planes, pilots and crews back alive. Everything else was secondary. Hitting the target was of limited value when most of your planes and aircrews failed to return. Who would fly the next mission, and what would they fly it in? Seriously, 5% loss rates where deemed unsustainable. In Aces High, there is no attrition, and the scoring does not sufficiently discourage getting shot down.
I disagree vehemently with this suggestion. Any changes to gameplay that increase the emphasis on survival will result in a disproportionate increase in the number of players who engage in the sorts of low risk, high rewards gaming that you claim to dislike. Think about it, and let's use CUCKOO (not to pick on him necessarily, but he's topical) as an example. He landed well over 50% of his fighter sorties last tour and possessed the 11th highest K/D ratio in game. According to stats, he's exactly the kind of player you'd like to see in this game, and he's the kind of player who would benefit the most from a system that rewards flying to live more than anything else.
The problem with equating AH to historical reality is that in AH there is no punishment for unrealistic behavior in the pursuit of flying to live. Last night I ran into a couple of guys who were doing what I call "chumming." This involves using countrymates as bait and refusing to assist them until it's certain that the enemy fighting them has become preoccupied. The typical result of chumming is that the chummed countrymates die, but in so doing put the chummer at an extremely advantageous position relative to the enemy.
It's a great way to live and obtain kills, but realistic? Hardly.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Sorry many spell miss and mistake the last comment.
I will correst it.
You need to try and error in scoring system by your self before you answer somebodies it.
change to
You need to try and error in scoring system by your self before you ask a question of it to somebodies.
And thank you very much for some comments, Hitech.
I have one comment, just only comment.
In my opinion, we can see few high bombers but many great players keep cap high with their pride and pleasure, even if high cap is not good for scoring.
I sometimes try to cap high as attacker because K/online time in attacker is not so important as that in fighter.;)
all pilots
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In WWII the single greatest goal was to get planes, pilots and crews back alive. Everything else was secondary. Hitting the target was of limited value when most of your planes and aircrews failed to return. Who would fly the next mission, and what would they fly it in? Seriously, 5% loss rates where deemed unsustainable. In Aces High, there is no attrition, and the scoring does not sufficiently discourage getting shot down.
Anyone else think this statment if full if it? If the greatest goal was to keep poeple alive then why would a comander ever send them out?
Acctual the things you squeak about most, like milk running are the most realistic. The hole goal of battle is to hit them where they ain't while accompishing the objective.
The scoring system is designed around lots of skills, you need to do all the skills to do well at it.
Your doing a classic view of game play wideman, that beeing not thinking how score changes effect everone. We already do a lot to promote landing. See the points catagory. But when you go to far by making k/d more important than k/s k/t what you do is make a game where people run more than fight. And that makes for a very boring game.
In the end Widewing you are trying to change the score system not to what is best for fun and game play , but wrather to what best suites you. i.e. wanting to live.
Over the last 7 years, we have tried many scoring systems, so far this one has won out, it is very fare in that all catagories are equal and it's well rounded to all types of pilots.
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I still say that the best option would be to remove the scoring system and let word of mouth dictate players' standing within the game. The way I see it, people would pay more attention to being team players if the the score system was removed. But I guess scoring does help, in a way, by adding some sort of "death penalty". Some people like scores and some people don't... I'm one that doesn't. Have any online air combats sims tried no scoring before?
As far as CV control goes. Give each player a menu or something so they can give their "approval" to as many players as they want. If a player has X number of other players that approve of them having CV control then they can control it. Maybe even go so far as to allow a player with a higher approval rating to relieve another of command. That way those people who constantly get CVs destroyed don't get the chance to command them.
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So HT, When are we going to get a perk-ratio stat, to give people who are successfull in early war planes a stat that points that out over players who are equally successfull in the 1944 monsters?
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I completely agree with HiTech
Anyone who reads my posts, especially on that "other" newsgroup (the NNTP one) knows that's not a common occurance :)
J_A_B
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Combat aircrew put the mission first in real life in my experience (note: I'm not a pilot, but I've worked very closely with combat aircrew for no small number of years - maybe some of our combat aircrew can comment on this to give a better perspective).
Widewing, you have a point that attrition rates in the MA are insanely high with regards to real life. But HT is correct that the primary goal was to meet mission objectives. 'Perfectly' planned missions put the enemy at as much risk as possible while putting your own assets at as little risk as possible while still putting them in a position to complete their mission. If the mission plan goes bad and the risk factor goes up for the good guys it's still pretty rare to scrub the mission altogether.
WW2 air combat history is loaded with examples of experienced aircrew who committed to action when high casualties were almost a certainty, because planning went wrong but they 'still had a mission to accomplish'.
Torpedo Squadron 8 could have called off the attack and returned to their CV when their fighter cover did not materialize. But they knew other attacking aircraft were on the way and they had the holy grail of targets for USN attack pilots in 1942: IJN CVs.
So they were shot down to the man, with 1 survivor from the whole squadron. Not a smart move if your 'primary objective' is to get home safe. But those guys single handedly changed the course of the entire war in the Pacific. The IJN CAP overcommited when attacking them (not bad judgement really - if there are torpedo bombers attacking your CVs, you don't spare on effort to kill them all before they get into effective attack range), leaving only 1 fighter 'high'...and when the 2 groups of USN dive bombers appeared there was zero aerial opposition and the defensive DD based AAA screens for the CVs were totally disrupted due to torpedo evasion maneuvers. Everyone knows the end result.
Widewing - the mindset you are looking for exists in about 10% or fewer of the players in the MA (look for the challenging fight and try to win even if the odds are against you - as opposed to fleeing for friendly AAA at the first sign of danger), but that doens't make the other 90% of the players in the MA 'wrong'.
I *think* the whole point of the MA is 'anything goes', but there's a big strategic chess game going on the background that is played out with aircraft and vehicles and such. The balance that is trying to be struck is to allow the 'big chess game' to be played by people who want to play it while making sure that the 'anything goes' crowd (which includes me an probably everyone else, depending on a person's mood on a given night) can do what they want at the same time without limitation.
What you are looking for exists in historical events, and will probably exist in the mission-based arena.
In the MA there's 80+ different categories of players all focusing on doing their own thing. You are never going to have a scoring system in the MA that 'means something' to every category of player I think.
Mike/wulfie
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Well said HiTech.....
And what is wrong with vulching? Why penalize someone for putting on a good vulch? Sometimes it is necessary to capture the field, besides it is fun to see them planes blow up.
The only way someone can Vulch is if there is someone else willing to up from a capped base. If someone doesn't like getting vulched, then look out the tower first before upping.
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AFAIK ENY is included in your fighter rank.
Look at your stats and see how many fighter points you have. If you fly a low ENY plane you will have fewer points than someone who flies a high ENY plane.
I have 17 kills and have 1720.3754 points- flying the spit9
Widewing has 14 kills and has 4099.3656 points- flying mainly the FM2
Cuckoo has 10 kills and has 2651.2645- flying either the hurri2c or tiffie.
I have more kills than both of them but have less points because i fly the spitfire with it's extremely low ENY. Cuckoo has more kills than Widewing but has less points because the FM2 has a higher ENY. Widewing has the most points because the FM2 is poop;) :D
Soooo..... flying high ENY planes does have a positive effect on your fighter rankings.
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Thrila: According to the scoring pages, ENY has absolutly no effect on anything other than earning perks.
Points earned is drasticly affected by end-of-sortie multipliers. You can also gain points by getting lots of assists, without many kills. Plus, points is mainly a measure of how much time you spend playing the game.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/scoring.html
ENY has no effect on scoring.
It should.
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Originally posted by wulfie
Combat aircrew put the mission first in real life in my experience (note: I'm not a pilot, but I've worked very closely with combat aircrew for no small number of years - maybe some of our combat aircrew can comment on this to give a better perspective).
Widewing, you have a point that attrition rates in the MA are insanely high with regards to real life. But HT is correct that the primary goal was to meet mission objectives. 'Perfectly' planned missions put the enemy at as much risk as possible while putting your own assets at as little risk as possible while still putting them in a position to complete their mission. If the mission plan goes bad and the risk factor goes up for the good guys it's still pretty rare to scrub the mission altogether.
WW2 air combat history is loaded with examples of experienced aircrew who committed to action when high casualties were almost a certainty, because planning went wrong but they 'still had a mission to accomplish'.
Torpedo Squadron 8 could have called off the attack and returned to their CV when their fighter cover did not materialize. But they knew other attacking aircraft were on the way and they had the holy grail of targets for USN attack pilots in 1942: IJN CVs.
So they were shot down to the man, with 1 survivor from the whole squadron. Not a smart move if your 'primary objective' is to get home safe. But those guys single handedly changed the course of the entire war in the Pacific. The IJN CAP overcommited when attacking them (not bad judgement really - if there are torpedo bombers attacking your CVs, you don't spare on effort to kill them all before they get into effective attack range), leaving only 1 fighter 'high'...and when the 2 groups of USN dive bombers appeared there was zero aerial opposition and the defensive DD based AAA screens for the CVs were totally disrupted due to torpedo evasion maneuvers. Everyone knows the end result.
I think people are jumping to certain conclusions that are eroneous.
In October 1943, the 8th Air Force suspended bombing missions beyond the range of escorts due to heavy losses. The mission is not viable if unsustainable casualties result. Virtual suicide missions were never ordered unless there existed no alternative other than annihilation.
Offering the debacle of the VT squadrons at Midway doesn't wash. Those TBDs were supposed to receive cover. You can bet that Spruance would not have ordered them in virtually unprotected. What you have described was a snafu, not the mission design.
Resources must be husbanded, it takes more than a year to train a pilot. Any commander who is reckless with his personnel will very quickly find himself without a command.
In any military organization, the primary responsibility of command is to maintain the combat effectiveness of the organization. That means not wasting combat power, personnel and equipment. Obtaining objectives with minimum loss IS the goal of every commander. Anything less is not tolerated for long.
Now Hitech, milkrunning as done in the game, hitting isolated complexes many miles in the rear is anything but realistic. First, these would (and should) be captured! Secondly, no bombs were wasted on bypassed outposts. That was the whole reason for bypassing them, not to expend resources on insignificant targets!
You asked my my opinion, and I gave it to you. Is surviving boring? Hardly! I land about 90% of my sorties, maintaining decent numbers and ranking, while killing a great many enemy. So what does that indicate? It shows that one need not get their bellybutton shot off to be successful.
You may not wish to change the relationship between K/D and K/T, K/S, but consider isolating field captures from bomber scores, and throw the guys a bone who do well in the early war fighters by factoring ENY into the scoring equation.
My regards,
Widewing
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no thrila the more bullets you put into a target the more points you score for damage (your hit percentage goes up as well). 2 or 3 hispanos will kill a plane 1 50 wont.
Fire 4 or 6 or 8 50s in to a target and your points go up. You may have more kills but the machinegun armed planes score more damage. There may be a fifferent value assigned to each bullet, example: 2cm = 5 points, 3cm = 10, .50cal = 3
so 1 cm kills a plane but scores 10 points
where as 25 .50 cal hits = 75
1 3cm hit will kill a plane, but you wont score the damage points.
You have to look at assists as well.
The score works fine. Rank means nothing but at all but the data lets you track your progression. It encourages and rewards those who fight. We dont need a more timid main.
The only thing I would like is after mission reports, I belive HT showed interest before when someone mentioned this. I text file that shows all the info that gets added to the score for that sortie.
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Originally posted by Wotan
no thrila the more bullets you put into a target the more points you score for damage (your hit percentage goes up as well). 2 or 3 hispanos will kill a plane 1 50 wont.
... and that is total BS! Why should my score be penalized for practicing proper ammo conservation techniques by targetting wingtips and other vital areas and then ceasing fire once said component is removed and the target is no longer capable of controlled flight? Why the need to have to "hose it down" just to increase my fighter points? Isn't the ENTIRE plane destroyed when it impacts terra-firma... therefore why am I not getting the total points awarded... minus the nibbles to the falling con done by the caste of bottom-feeders?
Here is an example...
I skillfully evade 3 consecutive headons and use my superior SA skills to gain an insurmountable position of advantage on a far superior enemy plane to the one I am flying. Then I carefully place my well-aimed fire on the enemy's wing and separate it clean after a .75 second burst. The con loses flight control and plummets earthward, being set upon by the unscrupulous masses trying to steal my kill and it takes additional damage before hitting the ground. The original target is worth 100 damage points (for example sake), I scored 10 points for taking the wing with the mimimum amount of rounds expended. The miscellaneous and insignificant scum between the lot of them score with their spray-n-pray totally unhistorical method of "gunnery" 20 point between the 10 of them before it hits the ground. Now, where are the other 70 points scored? Why are they not added to my score as I was the one who was awarded the kill in spite of the collective effort of the peasants to steal it in their quest to manipulate the current system?
So, the points for shooting down a plane awarded to me should equal the TOTAL point value of the enemy plane minus any damage done to it by other planes.
end of example...
You would think that after working scoring systems for 8 years as HiTech stated above he would not have made such a glaring error in fairness that I have pointed out here today in my well-written post gleaming with such irrefutable logic that only a fool would not see it my way.
Regards,
Lonzwing
:p
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What?
SKurj
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wide.. if you are going to assign "fractional kills" to ground kills then why not give say, 1/3 kill to an assist? I fly machine gun planes and am a little tired of doing all the work only to have some cannon potato put a few into the plane I worked over and I get a worthless assist.
lazs
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Don't fly Lancs, fly the D3A or SBD with limited bomb loads. Try something difficult
HAHAHAHAHA
You think Lancs are easy? Turn like a zeke do they? Climb like a 38, eh?:rolleyes:
No! Takes hours to get a lanc form up to alt and another hour and a half to get one's speed level. More on pie map.
My question is, will multiple bombings (using rearm pad) with lancs make much difference, or should I just be ending my sorties have one run like I do now?
:confused:
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I agree keep the perk points but drop the ground kills from scores.....What a great idea! vulching serves it's purpose but should not be included in ocerall score.......I would also like to see base captures counted as something else and feel that this would more accuratley show the "real scores".
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Originally posted by Wotan
The score works fine. Rank means nothing but at all but the data lets you track your progression. It encourages and rewards those who fight. We dont need a more timid main.
Phan Boi :p
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by lazs2
wide.. if you are going to assign "fractional kills" to ground kills then why not give say, 1/3 kill to an assist? I fly machine gun planes and am a little tired of doing all the work only to have some cannon potato put a few into the plane I worked over and I get a worthless assist.
lazs
My Cod, ain't that the truth. Even more irriating is when you lop off a wing of an enemy and some cannon ho puts a couple of shells into the falling plane to get the kill...IMO kills should be awarded as soon as the plane is unflyable...but that is a whole different issue :D
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The scoring system as it stands now is akin to a bar brawl.
If your in the middle of it, take a bunch of people out and finally end up on the floor, you do very well.
If on the other hand you bust through the front door, Sunday bunch someone, drop to the floor and crawl out the back door...and then run around the front again...
Yes you did good, but not as good as the guy still in there.
The score system as it is promotes interaction.
I let it all hang out this weekend, died over and over again just brawling it up.
I follow K/D mostly and jeez in that catagory it's the worst since I've been here.
Best overall score since I've been here :eek:
It's MADE for interaction.
It promotes it !!
From a game view, more interaction equals more fun :)
Not a bad way to go, you think ??
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Lazs: the problem with partials is how exactly much do you award? Right now just tapping someone with Mg's counts as an assist, even when theres no mortal damage.
Ferris: no ground kills will result in loads of pleebs rolling from capped bases til the enemy wastes their ammo. There needs to be some disincentive to hordes rolling. Plus as a qualified vulcher I can wait til their wheels leave the ground :) I doubt whether this would make any difference except identify those of us truely skilled at vulching.
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vulcan.. if you hit em with mg's then it should be an assist at least.. If you "tap" em with cannon you can steal the kill.
lazs