Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: VoX on April 26, 2001, 04:22:00 AM
-
Never bothered to ask before but, How is the gunnery worked out in AH.
i.e. will firing a .50 at a Panzer eventually kill it or is it useless? Armour to Velocity ratio?
All answers/Suggestions Welcome.
VoX
9./JG54
-
.50 will bounce off
ballistics model is pretty well done. based on penetration and all that crap. someone else can explain better.
-
I think damage is cumulative ie. you can kill tank with 12.7 mm MG's if you keep firing long enough. 20 mm Hispano is much better in this.
New system will check amount of kinetic energy and thus penetreation capability (which also depends on round/armour angle) round has and compare it against armour. If round can penetrate armour it does damage, if not, nothing happens to tank and round richochets away.
This means that 20 mm Hispano will become much less effective against tanks since it cannot penetrate tank armour unless it is almost perpendicular to top or rear armour. No rounds pentrate armour, no damage to tank.
Also tank vs tank fights will become much more different. No more 4000 yds kills because 75L48 cannot penetrate 80 mm front armour of PzKw IVH at all ranges. Also tank's turret and hull facing becomes an issue, making it neccessary to hit specific parts of tank to kill it effectively.
------------------
jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolschevismus!
-
This has never been discussed in detail I think. I hope HTC finds time to give us bit information about the current and new system.
------------------
jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolschevismus!
-
I have killed panzers with 50 cals in my jug... ok it was 3 jugs making pass after pass on it and it took a ton of rounds but 50s alone killed it.
-
The only reason I would attack a tank with a .50 armed anything would be to distract it. As Sancho has so clearly illustrated it is an utter waste of time, and that ammo is better reserved for the fighters that may support the tank.
Yes, the new penetration model is going to be interesting WRT armored columns and base attacks. It is beginning to sound like the only way to kill a tank will be with a rocket or bomb attack, and iffy then. No more ignoring tanks until they are right on the apron of the field I would guess...
-
Yes, now tanks are largely ignored as a threat because they can be killed so easily by Hispano equipped planes. Not so in future. Average pilots bombing skills are not too great, especially against point targets like tanks.
Historically best anti tank weapon was another tank and I think it will so in Ah too after new vehicle damage model.
One thing that needs to be addressed too is Panzer main gun dispersion, now there is none or it is not historically large.
------------------
jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolschevismus!
-
I have been disabled in a Ostie from a P51 before. Yes, it was the only plane - no, he did not drop any ordinance!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Originally posted by Animal:
.50 will bounce off
ballistics model is pretty well done. based on penetration and all that crap. someone else can explain better.
No, I dont think they will bounce off but I have on very infrequent occassion been able to kill a pansie with the 6 50s from a P51. It takes ALOT of shots and just about used my complete clip. Think a friendly finished him off but I did get the kill.
-Ding
-
Originally posted by Dingy:
No, I dont think they will bounce off but I have on very infrequent occassion been able to kill a pansie with the 6 50s from a P51. It takes ALOT of shots and just about used my complete clip. Think a friendly finished him off but I did get the kill.
-Ding
Sure you didnt just disable a track and he eventually got bored and bailed giving you the kill.
-
I have found that attacking a panzer with .50's is useless, and attacking an Osti is worse than useless- the Osti will kill you long before you can make multiple passes.
The only way I tackle GV's in a .50-equipped plane is with bombs and rockets, or in an effort to distract the GV jock from the real threat coming to kill it.
-
Panzers can be killed with about 150 .50 cal rounds to the hull. The lower front hull seems to be best. I have done this countless times in H2H and Dueling Arena. They explode.
The strange thing is that you can drive up next to a halftrack and spray your MG down into the drivers compartment with no effect.
But the .50 can explode a panzer.
Oops.
That's why I stopped playing vehicles a few tours ago. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-26-2001).]
-
so now not only hispano lasers but super penetrating rounds....and another straw for our backs the .50cals can kill tanks.
well assuming this kind of thing is a modelling error on .50s does this mean we have been fighting unfair .50's too?
SAY IT AINT SO........
------------------
Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
-
I think the p47 used to kill tanks with their machine guns in real life.
They could approach from the back and they would ricochet into the cabin off the back deck. I read that somewhere. Let me see if I can find the source...
Bohica
-
I'm thinking that if they re-design the armor as they should, then armored GV's are going to be real tough.
They may have to re-design bomb damage/blast radius as well.
-
I should clarify this - I am talking about the .50 on the M3 and the M16.
I don't know if these are modelled like the aircraft .50's or if they have the boost that the Panzer and bomber MG's seem to have.
*Edit* Just realize I used "aircraft" when I meant "fighters". I guess that kind of sums up my opinions on how the bombers are modelled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-26-2001).]
-
I think the p47 used to kill tanks with their machine guns in real life.
I guess thats not quite possible. Maybe some recon vehicles..but no tanks. .50cal was also used by ground forces and it could kill some german light TDs(which were basicly just tracked at-guns). .50cal didnt have enough penetration to kill tanks.
-
Wow, the ignorance displayed here is immense.
1. The best AT-weapon in WW2 was an airplane. Tank armor thickness made normal all-purpose tank guns (75mm/16-32in in general) innefective in tank-killing. Special tank-destroyers, armed with longer and therefore higher-velocity guns were needed, e.g. the M10 Wolverine, with a 76mm/48in and the Pgz-IV, with the 88mm/56in mounted. Special mounts were needed to house these guns. The Panzerzerstörer (spelling?) had the turret removed, and the gun mounted directly in the hull. The M10 Wolverine was an M4 Sherman with the turret cover removed, and the rear panel of the turret moved back to accomodate the greater recoil.
On the other hand a near hit by a 250lbs GP bomb would overturn a normal tank, and a direct hit (uncommon) would instantly kill it (130lbs of octol is bad).
2. Panzer IVs were indeed often killed with .50cals. Sustained hits to the rear deck would produce ricochets through the lower rear mantle of the turret, where the armor is only 12mm thick. A .50cal from 150-200 yards will punch through some 15-20mm of steel plate armor.
These hits would kill or incapacitate the turret crew (gunner, commander and loader if present), making the vehicle uncombatworthy.
3. The bomb damage/burst radius was upgraded in some patch of 1.05. It made the structures hardier, and therefore harder to kill with guns, but vehicles stayed the same and bombs had an easier time killing them. At least I have no problems killing vehicles with a 500lbs bomb, if I get enuf time to set up the run.
Lets all be friends
Darling
[This message has been edited by darling (edited 04-27-2001).]
-
Is this "richocet kill" stuff all theoretical - or is it an actual, proven technique used with some success during WW2?
I imagine the US Army would have written something about this subject, considering all their fighters had .50in guns.
-
Utter roadkille darling.
Wehrmach tank losses in Normandy were recorded and studied by British army and they were classified by cause. By far most numerous losses were caused by AP round fired by AT gun or tank. I think next were HEAT rounds fired by tanks or infantry antitank weapons.
Rockets and bombs accounted only few percent ot total tank losses. They might have killed more halftracks and soft skinned vehicles but not tanks.
First of all tanks can operate by night unlike fighter bombers. Secondly hitting tanks with bomb or rockets is very hard. Cannons or MG's in allied planes didnt kill tanks lmaost at all.
------------------
jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolschevismus!
-
Darling, here's the proof from http://www.vvaf.org/about/dupuy.pdf (http://www.vvaf.org/about/dupuy.pdf) :
Enemy tank casualties between JUne 6 and 31 august 1944 (total of 110 tanks from 6 June to 7 august and total of 223 tanks from 8 August to 31 August, all left on battlefield)
AP shot 48% / 11%
HEAT shot 7% / 0.4%
HE artillery 8% / 2%
Mines 1% / 0%
Rocket projectiles from aircraft 6% / 3%
Air cannon 3% / 0.4%
Bombs 0% / 1%
Destroyed by crew 6% /48%
Abandoned 4% / 28%
Unknown 17% / 6%
Quite clearly air power was not the most effective way to kill tanks. What makes these numbers even more significant is that in Normany allies had overwhelming air superiority. In more usual circumstances percentage of tanks killed by air power would be even smaller.
------------------
jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolschevismus!
-
Originally posted by Jochen:
Quite clearly air power was not the most effective way to kill tanks
Now think what that means for "ACES" High if they revamp the GV armor modeling.
"Panzers on the Prowl" anyone? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Play "Osties Overwhelm" tonite? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Some decisions are going to have to be made. Either you introduce more capable anti-armor elements or you remove the (dare I say it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) uber-armor if you intend to maintain this as primarily a flight sim.
Choices, choices, always choices. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)