Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wotan on September 07, 2002, 02:17:01 PM
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I am of the belief that if folks want to talk off and kill themselves then who am I to stop them. However, their impact over the rest of the arena should be limited.
Some have suggested scoring tweaks, a "death penalty" etc. I dont dont agree with any of this.
However, like a lot of other folks I would like something to be done it help limit the impact of these types of attacks.
1. increase the damage value of the hangers. HT has said he would like the hangers to be destroyed with 3000lbs of ord. If he upped this to 3500lbs, beyond what 1 fighter could destroy alone.
This wont solve the problem because these suicide raiders come in packs.
2. Barrage balloons. I dont know all that would be involved in modelling barrage balloons and their cables. This wont stop high angle jabos but it will prevent the lo angle deack runs. It will stop 1 or 2 guys from immediatly deacking a field. Balloons of course will be killable.
3. add more ack per field and scatter them so they arent in a straight line (like on the small fields).
I dont think ack lethality to is high. I think its fine the way it is. Some may argue for more ack with a toned down lethality. I dont care either way. But it should not be nerfed. Instead of lethality adjustments maybe reduce its accurracy somewhat.
On a side note ht has said larger towns are on the way and I would suggest this as well.
Add a map room to both the town and the field. Make them both capturable but only enable flight when both the town and the field are captured. Have a vh attached to the town, or possibly 1 at the town 1 at the field.
This would help get rid of the milkrunning on the larger maps.
I dont fly Navy planes but maybe some one can suggest away to better protect the fleets that wont end up making them unkillable (8000lbs is good enough). Also keep in mind no one will fly bar cap. Its boring and you wont get anyone to waste their time doing it. You cant limit how close a fleet gets to shore because of the lvts. Lockig flight will just lead to arguements.
We all know about the high ranked guy that would switch sides and take a fleet and wont release it. Imagine some body locking flight and never letting anyone take off.
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I liked the idea of perking the 1K bombs; they were less common than the 500 pound GP bombs anyhow. If a flight of suicide Tiffies had 500-pounders instead of 1K bombs, that'd reduce their effectiveness almost by half.
Plus it'd give us something useful to use those bomber perks on since the 234 is a waste.
As for milkrunning, something that slowed down the landgrab somewhat in AW is before you could capture a base, you had a level 60% of the structures (destroy the field)--you couldn't capture an undamaged base as you can in AH and also had to protect it from recapture attempts since a destroyed base was extremely vulnerable. Once you captured the field, you had to wait for it to become operational again before you could use it, so the AH-style "base hopping" didn't work. Such a system might work well in AH.
J_A_B
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Some have suggested scoring tweaks, a "death penalty" etc. I dont dont agree with any of this.
Me neither, if they are suiciding anyway they've already proved they don't care about score.
1. increase the damage value of the hangers. HT has said he would like the hangers to be destroyed with 3000lbs of ord. If he upped this to 3500lbs, beyond what 1 fighter could destroy alone.
This is'nt the answer, like you said the packs would just become bigger to compensate and the ord required to destroy a hangar is already unrealistically high.
2. Barrage balloons. I dont know all that would be involved in modelling barrage balloons and their cables. This wont stop high angle jabos but it will prevent the lo angle deack runs. It will stop 1 or 2 guys from immediatly deacking a field. Balloons of course will be killable.
Might work but then if undefended would last all of a minute to a fighter shooting them down.
3. add more ack per field and scatter them so they arent in a straight line (like on the small fields).
Yes more ack at the fields would probably help. Although VH's with a measly 15 min rebuild time means Ostwind's and M16's can be deployed.
I dont think ack lethality to is high. I think its fine the way it is.
I don't think it's too high either but the way it works can be odd sometimes as it appears to have better luck when you zip past it at high speed and vast angles but when you fly straight at the ack it can often miss
Hitech has said he want's to encourage jabo's to attack fields and leave bombers to hit strat targets so I guess this problem may get worse if unchecked. More targets at a field is the way to go, bombers did hit fields so why should'nt they be used too, particularly on large airfields.
What's not been talked about so far is a way to stop the suicide fighters that up from anattacked field and throw themselves at the con's knowing if they can at least down one then that plane has a longer flight time where the suicide defender can re-up in seconds. It's more realistic to have waves of fighters attacking a field (imagine the suicide bomber as a new pilot) than it is for a field to continually spawn fighters when after the first few wave or two of attackers there would not be a plane left to defend that field. The rebuild time of the hangars is also too short. I have my own thoughts on how to perhaps stop this this but it would give furballers and embolism.
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How about a score multiplier that increases each time you land a consecutive successful sortie. For example, land one sortie with kills and get normal points. Land a second consecutive sortie and points are multiplied by 2, third consecutive sortie and points multiply by 3 etc... Once you die your start back at a normal multiplier. This may give the needed incentive for folks to live through a mission and not suicide run. Granted you will still have the dweeb factor and some folks won't care and do it anyway, but at least there is a penalty for folks that do and a reward for those that don't.
Your thought??
Avid
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I'm no expert about how real CV's were built and attacked, so please bear with me. This may come out overly gamey anyways, but it seems to solve the provlem of kamakazi jabos. Did WW2 CV's have armored flight decks?
Anyways, change the way damage affects a CV. Introduce AP bombs for the divebombers, and probably the TBM.
GP bombs would do half damage to a CV, requiring 16000lb's.
AP Bombs would do double damage, meaning four SBD's could kill a CV.
Torpedos would also do double damage, requiring only two torpedo hits.
This makes defending a carrier, as well as realisticly attacking it somewhat more likely. The divebombers and torpedo bombers are fairly easily dealt with by fighters flying CAP, lacking the speed to just blaze through any CAP.
As for airfields, I've never reallly seen suicide jabos, besides the occasional(okay common) p38 that compresses and digs a hole in the ground. That said, base capture is too easy, and its too easy for jabos to kill targets at a field and get out alive. All it takes to capture a field is a coordinated flight of p38s, 1 per hangar.
What I'd like to see is ack moved into 2-5 "banks" (depending on the field size) Each bank would be a dense pack of ack, dense enough that a bomber could carpetbomb an entire bank at once, or a jabo flinging bombs/rockets at it could take a good chunk out.
Ack lethality would be turned UP so that instead of "BS" one ping ack kills, just about every hit from the ack is a one ping kill. This requires the ack to be killed before a decent attack can even begin, and also helps eliminate lamers suiciding through the ack in hopes of shooting someone trying to takeoff/land.
Then again, there isnt much thought put into these ideas, just brainstorming, so there may be major flaws.
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British CV's had armored flightdecks. American carriers did not. Essex-class carriers proved quite vulnerableto Kamnikaze tactics--although none of them were sunk, several of our big flattops were put out of action. We also lost a light carrier (Princeton) because of the aftermath of a Kamikaze attack although it probably could have been saved.
J_A_B
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Why not set a time limit of say 10 seconds before an object is destroyed. If you die before that limit no damage will occur.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
British CV's had armored flightdecks. American carriers did not. Essex-class carriers proved quite vulnerableto Kamnikaze tactics--although none of them were sunk, several of our big flattops were put out of action. We also lost a light carrier (Princeton) because of the aftermath of a Kamikaze attack although it probably could have been saved.
J_A_B
What about the japanese?
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Japanese carriers lacked any useful armor. If that wasn't bad enough, damage control wasn't very good and the crews were often somewhat sloppy with regards to safety precautions.
What's funny (or perhaps not funny) is during WW2, the US scuttled more big carriers than the Japanese actually sank themselves--Lexington, Hornet, Princeton and maybe Wasp all survived the Japanese damage only to be sunk by the Navy (or in the case of the Hornet the Navy pumped several hundred 5-inch shells into it and shot a bunch of torpedos into it but the damn thing just wouldn't sink and so they just left it adrift and eventually the Japanese finished it off). Eventually the Navy figured out that sinking its own carriers was pointless and they managed to save USS Franklin when it suffered severe damage from a Kamikaze.
J_A_B
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J_A_B:
Japanese CVs were as well protected as U.S. CVs.
The IJN crews weren't bad at damage control - it's that USN crews were *awesome* at damage control (and *nobody* was sloppy about *anything* in the IJN - a very highly trained force with very strict discipline).
The IJN CVs lost at Midway (the major example of IJN CVs being lost) were victims of timing and command decision - the CVs had to have fuel lines open because they were refueling strikes (commander's decision).
As everyone knows there was a great deal of 'unsecured' ord. on the hangar deck and above decks as well (again - rearming for a strike, commander's decision).
But this caused the IJN CVs to suffer massive damage from secondary fire and explosion that normally would not have taken place given the # and size of hits those CVs suffered.
Pressure was lost to fire hoses almost immediately on all striken IJN CVs (crewmen had to resort to lowering rope lines of buckets to the sea for water for fighting fires).
Carbon based gas extinguishing systems (present on all IJN CVs, very advanced damage control equipment for it's time - also present on USN CVs) were used but the extent of the fires and the massive unreachable damage (due to said fires) made such systems almost worthless.
Numerous IJN Sailors formed into 'do or die' units for special damage control missions - a very high % of them died during these tasks.
I'll post some translations of IJN battle logs dealing with damage control operations in a day or two if you want - pretty interesting stuff.
Mike/wulfie
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You can't stop it, Wotan. I watched a dweeb yesterday make run after run after run in his P51. He came in NOE and dropped his eggs too low, so he exploded everytime. Still, it took him six runs to drop one hangar, but he didn't give up. You could have set your watch by him, too.
It's akin to the dweebs that make run after run on the CV's. You kill them high, they come in low. You kill them low, they come in high. Wash, rinse, repeat. Finally, they bring five guys and you can't kill them all, or one guy comes in low, the other high.
How about the guys that 'dance' their flak hulls, so they can get you to waste ammo while they try to get close enough to trash your panzer? Or, the guys that spawn fifty times near the town and drop five-hundred troops out? Or the PT's that spawn fifty times and fire torpedoes at every conceivable angle?
If they can do it, they will. It might be gamey, but I bet you can come up with a way to take advantage of their dweebiness, if you really, really try.
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I am afraid you are correct Voss :(
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It's just as dweeby to keep respawning at an airfield and throw yourself suicidally at any con in sight and then respawn seconds later to do it all over again.
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this aint an either/or discussion. I dont either of those.
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How about a score multiplier that increases each time you land a consecutive successful sortie. For example, land one sortie with kills and get normal points. Land a second consecutive sortie and points are multiplied by 2, third consecutive sortie and points multiply by 3 etc... Once you die your start back at a normal multiplier. This may give the needed incentive for folks to live through a mission and not suicide run. Granted you will still have the dweeb factor and some folks won't care and do it anyway, but at least there is a penalty for folks that do and a reward for those that don't.
Possibly a good idea, but assumes that people fly for score. On the big maps (and in some cases the small ones too), I simply can't carry enough fuel to RTB after killing a vehicle field, for example. In addition, there's the time factor. If one is to RTB, there's an increased risk of the field coming back to life before troops can be landed. If working with a very small group, the unfortunate result is that one person has to bail to get troops, or the first person to get killed performs that duty. I am not alone in being more motivated by field defence and field capture than by the scoreboard. Hmmm, I feel a new thread coming on...
BTW - what's this about the guy who switched sides to get control of the enemy CV? I've heard about people flying simultaneously with two accounts, but hadn't realised that anyone would do that to exert control over the enemy. That's a bit underhand. :(
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I think Weaselsan is on the right track with the delay, if u crash within a certain time constraint your efforts are useless and so this also hold no regard for whether you after points or not, but it sticks it to the dweebs that crash getting the job done.
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well the problem with a score multiplier of some sort wont apply to guys who are suicidal. You see if they are killing themselves chances are they care nothing about scores. Score tweaks only work for guys who care about their score. I dont like damage delays, especially for bombers. They seem really weak to me and killing them after their bombs are dropped and before they get to target would be enough to send what we have for a bomber community over the edge. Imagine an hour and a half flight and you got your bombs off and here comes a 163 and kills you before they hit. Bombers would become useless.
Folks have the right to find fun any way then can in the main. Suicide runs dont really bother me. I find them hilarious at times.
However, I have read several threads over the past month or so by folks who voiced concern of such tactics. Make no mistake the biggest group the I have seen do this numerous times have been bish typh raids. Typhs dont compress that easy, and you see them holding their bombs till last second. Sometimes they drop late and their bombs dont even blow up. So it sure looks like thats what they were planning to do it when they got their. P38s and jugs maybe they compressed.
If folks wished to spend their time in ah doing, let umm. My only point was to discuss a way of limiting the overall impact on gameplay.
To me upping the hanger hardness to 3500lbs (yes this is unrealistic but so is killing 2 or 3 structures to disable flight). This stops the 1 plane 1 hanger run. It makes 2 guys kill themselves for 1 hanger.
Add more ack and even more will die. This increases the death per structure even higher.
Since ack is easy to kill by a lo and slo fighter add barrage balloons to make ack killing tougher.
Yes they can kill the balloons but in the mean time more fighters get up and kill even more of umm.
My point is to make their deaths per structure high enough some of them may decide to try a different tact.
To prevent milkrunning I also suggest that the field towns be capturable as well as the fields. To get flight enabled one side must own the town and the field. This would especially help the rampant milkrunning on the 512 x 512 maps. Field capture is to easy for 2 guys, 1 in a fp and 1 in an m3 to capture. It would enhance the gv war a bit especially if the towns and the fields both get vbases. Atleast until someone suicides the vhanger :)
We are all dweebs and folks will find away to game everything. Its there money and they can find their fun where they can. However, it seems atleast a few guys in here feel their ability to have fun has been overly impacted by the suicide nature of a few other folks.
All I was suggestion is a way to balance the impact without much fuss.
Jabos will still be the best way to raise a field and depending on what ht does in regards to field towns and strat objects hopefully bombers will have an equal roll.
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beetle it was guy with a high rank who got pissed for some reason switched sides took the cv and sailed it away to make it useless. Yes some folks are that bitter.
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I did'nt say you did either way Wotan 'yourself' was just a turn of phrase. Nobody really discusses the problem of the suicide defenders or the endless spawning brought on by the ridiculously low rebuild times but I guess this is because Aces High is mainly a furballers sim. There could be some ways to stop this but what's the point when the 'me me me me' 'gottawin' 'I pay my $14.95 and want to fly what I want' crowd will just get their way
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Woton,
I'm ashamed of those Bish raids. There are 2 guys who regularly put those missions up and you will never find me in eithers missions.
Vati66
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Originally posted by vatiAH
Woton,
I'm ashamed of those Bish raids. There are 2 guys who regularly put those missions up and you will never find me in eithers missions.
Vati66
Suicide is never an intention of those raids. Sure there are some pilots who can't divebomb for sh*t and kill themselves repeatedly, but suiciding makes you pretty worthless in a real attack. Those who suicide, tend to do the least amount of damage.
It doesn't take a suicide attack to kill all of the hangars. It's just as easy to kill them and survive as it is to kill them and die. The only time I've seen regular suicide attacks is jabos diving on CVs.
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Originally posted by vatiAH
Woton,
I'm ashamed of those Bish raids. There are 2 guys who regularly put those missions up and you will never find me in eithers missions.
Vati66
Who? I've never seen anyone post a mission with the intent of suicide bombing whether I flew for Knights or Bishops (never flown Rook) I am sometimes ashamed of certain high ranking Bishops who hide the CV's so they can't be recaptured though.
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Suiciding should be left alone. Sometimes its the only way to stop a steamrolling advance. Increase field toughness, definately increase the CV tougness. Yes some people "lame" it... I know I'm one of those dweebs that will suicide a P47 into a CV over and over if I'm in the mood. :)
People say they are having their experience hurt by suiciding? Well my experience gets hurt when my pony is getting jumped by 2 fw's right after I shot a La7 of someone's arse who, along with 1 other of my fellow countrymen zoom climb away from the fight because their precious K/Ds are at risk! Pansies are overmodeled in this game and I demand it be fixed! :)
Ok.. i'll compromise on the suiciding. Add a timer. When "handle" loads bombs on their aircraft, they cannot load more bombs until X minutes has passed from when the last of their ordinace is release or they are killed. This should probably not apply to bombers. Thats one effective kamikazi attack at maximum, every X+10 minutes (assuming it takes 10 min at the minimum to get the bombs off on a target). Then u either wait for bombs to become available or take off with no bombs/rockets. This may cause people to save their suicide until they need it. And if they get shot down enroute, no bombs for them until X minutes have passed. People should definately be allowed to kamikazi, but maybe not as much as they do now.
This has been said thousands of times by now I'm sure:
Any arguments that compare this game to real life are useless IMO. Its not realistic. It can never be realistic. Just because something happened IRL doesn't mean its a good idea to put it in a game.
[OFFTOPIC]
The CVs are pitiful. They die too quick. Make it take some effort to kill just one of the ships. Make the ships regenerate in the cv as long as one ship is still in the water. Let deck guns try and blow up torps before they hit. Increase the amount of ordinance that it takes to sink the ships. Yes they will be very powerful after these upgrades. They SHOULD be. Make every country have at least 1 CV spawning even if they dont have a port. Have it spawn off the shore of a friendly base, but only if a port is not available. This would prevent extreme unbalance of 1 country having 3 CVs and none being out there to oppose them.
[/OFFTOPIC]
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I dont wanna sound like I am after one set of guys.
What I think is that a bunch guys get in these missions and their goal is to get the base. "Damn the torpedos full speed ahead". Their goal is to level the field but they kill themselves in order to do it.
I have watched these guys from the tower as well as been in the air when their raids come. You dont drop your bombs at 600ft and expect to live. mostly then come in relatively lo 6 to 8k. Blow by all the nme fighters and fly straight into the ground. They can have no expectation of surviving doing a jabo run like that.
Their death per structure is high now. Quite a few drop their bombs so lo they either have blown themselves up or their bombs dont go off at all and they auger.
Sometimes these raids are over before they even do anything. A few times my squad was up together and we see a raid coming to a base. We ask if anyone can id the raid. We get typhs 7k.
I ask my guys "you wanna go there and help". The response is always, "No they will all be dead by the time we get there."
Also folks have said they have seen each country run their own version of these raids. So its certainly not just typhies or bish who do this.
It doesnt bother me at all that folks fly like this. I just wonder if it might be worth looking for ways to limit the impact of such raids.
Vati I know you and your guys dont fly these raids and the times when I encounter your squad its decent fight all round. I know most folks in ah dont suicide thats why I offered these suggestions with the hope of finding a way to limit the impact these few (on all sides) have on the rest of us.
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I know you're not going to name names but I get the general idea of who you are talking about organising these Bish typhoon raids but I really don't think that (if we're speaking about the same people here) plan these as suicide missions. If I fly jabo I plan to live, drop my ord, perhaps make a straffing run if possible but generally get in then get out to RTB.
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This is kind of funny, a few days ago I flew a Jabo run to a field that had about 20+ planes taking off from it. Having only rockets on my plane I decided to try to hit a fuel cell or two.
Diving in from 20K I realized I'd have only one chance to make a run because of all the defenders.
I fired the rocks from very low alt and missed all three of my targets. Then I saw a Typhoon on the rearm pad and thought about the last time I was vulched rearming so I let him live. My egress was simple, maintain 300+ and do low G jinks to avoid AAA and get the heck outa Dodge.
A single lone Spit chased me almost a full sector before breaking off but instead of being accused of running I get "Whoever the Bish was that just ran from baseXX to 52 after his Jabo run I salute you! You're the only one that tried to survive the sortie".
Now I'm confused, next time call me a runner would ya? :D
BTW, I would have turned to fight that spit but my F6F had way too much fuel to dance with a Spitty.
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Im a little confused. 20 guys take off in Tiffies with a couple a goons behind them. They then plaster the base and the town while making sure goons can get in to drop troops. Hmmmm......???? Is this lame or a pretty good tactic to use? If it is lame then why do we have the ability to make missions?:confused:
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Why not set a time limit of say 10 seconds before an object is destroyed. If you die before that limit no damage will occur.
This might work, perhaps 5 seconds or even 2-3 seconds past impact. It could be turned off for historical situations like a Okinawa scenario, etc.
Charon
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S!
Actually the real issue is not Suicide Jabos.
It's bozo Fleet commanders who bring their fleets close inshore and park them on the beach just offshore from an airfield.
An Aircraft carrier took a minimum of a year to build and cost Billions in today's dollar terms.
A single engined aircraft cost a tiny fraction of that.
No Fleet commander worth his salt would do anything like what people do in the MA. Fleets would be kept at a safe distance and CAP would be maintained.
How can anyone be stupid enough to plot a course for his fleet to sail just offshore, then leave that fleet completely unprotected?
Snooze you lose.
People do this currently because the fleets immediately respawn.
What is really needed is a longer respawn time so that tinpot admirals learn their lesson... ;)
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There's no reason to suicide...unless you just wanna. You can take things down perfectly well without resorting to this tactic.
I like the perking the 1000 pounders idea.
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There's no reason to suicide...unless you just wanna.
Somewhat true, suiciding doubles your sortie rate since you don't have to waste time flying back to base. That's a big thing since these people need to get in multiple sorties, quickly, in order to get the job done. The game promotes it, so it will happen. How to tell someone who is intentionally throwing away aircraft though is hard from someone who just doesn't know how to get the job done any other way.
-Soda
The Assassins.
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lets try to stay away from "blaming" or "labelling" folks. The fact is we cant make folks fly how we think they should. Be it inexperience or the desire to achieve their goal no matter the cost it happens, it will always happen.
I am not sure that any effort to limit its impact is worth the hassel, with the understanding no matter what "fix" is put in place to limit its impact people will still find a way to get around it.
fyi
Mrlars
the first "typh raid" I ever saw I counted 13 or 14 guys at the start and all augered but 3. Half the town was still up 1 fh was up and the base had 75% fuel and 6 of 8 ack still up.
The vh was ded and the bhs were ded. I was in the tower just laughing. A squaddie spawned on the runway and sat there and got 3 kills.
There were 4 or 5 typhs that wre intercepted and dofighting short of the field.
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Originally posted by Soda
Somewhat true, suiciding doubles your sortie rate since you don't have to waste time flying back to base. That's a big thing since these people need to get in multiple sorties, quickly, in order to get the job done. The game promotes it, so it will happen. How to tell someone who is intentionally throwing away aircraft though is hard from someone who just doesn't know how to get the job done any other way.
-Soda
The Assassins.
With muliple FH's it just not worth it for one guy to suicide bomb an airfield in my opinion. Even with just 3 FH's chance are that the first one will be back up, if not before, then very shortly after the third one goes down.
Now suiciding a CV is a diffent matter. Not only does it act as one FH/BH/VH, when it finally does go down it gets teleported up to hundred miles away.
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Suicide against any imoveable target makes very little sense. While attacking a flak is suicide, sometimes it just has to be done.
Suicide in attacking a fleet, though, is ridiculous. The guys that do it often hold their bombs and/or rockets, until they can't pull off. Yet, it is really easy to hit a big ship like the cruiser, or the carrier. I know, because I do it regularly, and often I don't take a single hit (unless there's a manned 5" gunner that knows his weapon).
I have heard guys radio that their intention is to bail over the base after a succesful capture. I have never heard of anyone intentionally augering on their target. I have hit the ground myself, once pieces were knocked off, or because I took too long lining up. Still, 10 out of 13 guys sounds a bit high ratio.
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Wasnt making a rebuttal Oedipus. Just asking a question so I can better understand where everyone is coming from. Being a relative newbie (2 months) i am still learning some things about gameplay.
By the way what does JABO stand for
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It's short for 'jagdbomber' the German term for a fighter-bomber aircraft but is generally adopted by most flightsimmers to describe any bomb carrying fighter aircraft.
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Thank you Revvin
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Thrawn,
That's not quite true. I have seen a P-51 use the suicide Jabo method to stop a GV offensive. The GV offensive was being launched from a full fledged field, not one of the popcorn V Bases, and he was alone. Apparently he decided the best way to kill the VH was a couple of suicide runs with 1,000lbers in the P-51D.
I was flying a P-51B and was able to intercept him, along with a couple of other Rooks, after his first run. He missed the VH by about 500 yards on his first run.
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Sever, in that myopic rebuttal you conveniently left out the important piece. The part about how these "pile-its" don't even attempt to pull out or survive. To compensate for thier lack of skill and as proof of thier suckiness thier aim is to drive the bomb not ONTO the target, but INTO it. At the expense of thier virtual life and aircraft. THAT is what most people who talk about "suicide bombing" are refering to. And if you still don't get it then A4c7i9d can explain it better apparantly as he's accustomed to the practice.
Put a reload timer on ordinance. I think that would solve YOUR problem. No more bombs/rockets until 30 minutes after your plane hits the runway. I'll play whatever they give me as long as I enjoy it.
The best way to deliver large amounts of ordinance very quickly in a fighter is to drop, auger, and repeat. Often the most efficient way to do this is to ride the dang bombs into the target!
I use whatever tactic best suits the situation I'm in, and whichever one helps me have the most fun playing this game. The fact is that I: shoot chutes, climb to 30k, suicide bomb, and HO. I have no qualms about: Shooting bingo aircraft, damaged but flyable aircraft, aircraft attempting to land/ditch, aircraft taking off, augering with a whole flight of goons just to make the NME point and laugh, and if fragging was on would occasionally shoot my squaddies! <> :-) I'm sure I do alot of other dweeby things. If that makes me a bad pilot then all the better. I can have even more fun watching good pilots whine when a crappy one like me kills them. 8-D
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wotan.. you may be on the right track so far as "perking" the bombs.. I say perk all the bombs on the bomber perk system. you get no perks if you get killed on a bomber mission.
lazs
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you get no perks if you get killed on a bomber mission.
You should get no perks if you don't land your kills, regardless.
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Time limiting the ordinance is an ignorant idea. How are you going to justify that to guys like me that like to egg gv's? No thanks.
Play the game. Quit whining. No matter the rule changes you make, someone will find a way to skirt around them.
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Seems to me that there should not be a strategic advantage to dieing in this game. Things should be put in place to stress this, though not necessarily require it.
AKDejaVu
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voss, I am simply saying that it would be fine to not allow people to load bombs unless they had bomber perk points. If they got killed on a bomber mission then they would lose bomber perk points. A jabo would be a bomber mission.
of course, the small bombs would have to be free.
lazs
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Lazs - How can you earn bomber perk points if you're not allowed to bomb in the first place until you have them? Please explain.
What I would suggest is to beef up the field guns, and have a mannable field gun in the towns. Right now, a swarm of Typhoons comes in, bombs the VH, bombs the mannable acks, and when a field reaches that stage it's pretty much Game Over. (Losing the VH is just a TILT) If we could keep the field guns for longer, we could deal with those hordes of vulchers that come in, with no intention of returning.
Or do what they did in WB: Triple points for actually landing your kills/target damage.
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Every plane in the bomber category gets free bombs.
Any bomb smaller than 500lbs is free.
500lb bombs cost 2 perks
1000lb bombs cost 4 perks
2000lb bombs(for the p38 of course) cost 8 perks.
The perk's are only removed if you die. If you survive, you won't lose any. Most likely, I'd remove the cost from fighter perks, not bomber.
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Originally posted by Wotan
the first "typh raid" I ever saw I counted 13 or 14 guys at the start and all augered but 3. Half the town was still up 1 fh was up and the base had 75% fuel and 6 of 8 ack still up.
The vh was ded and the bhs were ded. I was in the tower just laughing. A squaddie spawned on the runway and sat there and got 3 kills.
These raids bring tears to my eye-especially when I see my lovely typhoon utilized as a guided missile.
These raids rate as high for me as when I see a totally capped enemy base being strafed to the ground while it is being captured… then the same dweebs wonder why we can’t re-up from our newly captured “frontline” base.
:rolleyes:
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Insomniate - I feel those costs are too high. You have to remember that jabo is very high risk, especially as it's the town that needs to be killed, and not the airfield. What I find as a jabo is that the "friendlies" often desert me at the town so that they can go vulching at the field. With enemy GVs in the town (because no-one could be bothered to kill the VH), the only safe way to destroy targets is with bombs and rockets. Given that the other guys are at the vulch fest, those pesky GVs have only the one or two jabo fighters to worry about at the town, and we become easy pickings, should we decide to strafe.
I still think they should do what I suggested in an earlier thread - turn off the Mission Editor. It's patently obvious that it's being abused.
That's it!!!! Eureka! Perk the Mission Editor.:D :cool: Charge folks 8pp to join a mission, or missun as Lazs calls them. :p
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beetl, what about drawing the perks out of the bomber reserve? Possibly putting perks for ground targets destroyed into the bomber section instead of fighters. Anyways, no reason for the prices to not be flexible.
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I think those costs are way too low. I also think that all bombs should be free in 2 or 4 engine bombers. If you want to suicide jabo then earn some bomber points. good luck on finding 10 other morons to suicide with you tho when the bombs cost for jabo.
lazs
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** too mean to lazs - post deleted **
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well... that was kinda hurtfull now beetle... wasn't it?
lazs
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Although distasteful, historically speaking the suicide jabo was put to good tactical use by the Japenese air forces against the US forces during the Pacific Campaign. However thier impact was not quite what historians have reported. That Being said, those who play AH, are well witihin thier rights to become Spirt Winds, in an effort to gain a tactical advantage. Just make sure they take thier saki before hand.
But, barrage balloons seem like a good idea, as well as more Ack. perking bombs is a bit extreme for those who enjoy the challenge of hitting stuff and living \ (which by the way is not that difficult.
jEEZY
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Lazs - you are right - I was too mean. I deleted what I said because I realised it was unacceptable. Please accept my apology.
The thing is, that those of us who fly a reasonable and fair jabo mission are getting tarred with the same brush as the 18-Tiffie Suicide Squads. I don't want to see my jabo privileges curtailed because of these wallies that fly the "bomb or bust missuns". You see the thing is, Lazs, that lumbering along in my heavily laden P47D30 is no easy matter. I'm a sitting duck for the high alt cherry pickers. Such a flight needs careful co-ordination with other friendlies. Go alone on a flight like that, and it will be a one way trip.
Now compare that to a Mission Edited 18-Tiffie, 50 P38, 25 Goon Missun. They don't care if one or two of their number get picked off; they can re-up, and besides - enough of them will make it through to ensure that the target airfield becomes unserviceable.
This whole evil business stems from the abuse of that damned Mission Editor.
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I dont think ack lethality to is high. I think its fine the way it is.
i love the way ack is it actually hits us. ive played a starwars game where your going over the death star and theres about 1000 Ack ack guns not one of them hit.
our ack isnt very lethal it just has aim.
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well, thank you beetle... I don't think a lot of the guys here realize just how hurtful their remarks can be...
I wish that I had a nickle for every night that I have cried myself to sleep over some cruel and insensitive remark that was made about me on these boards.. Say what the will about your kind.... at least you are sensitive.
lazs
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Making this game realistic would make it suck.
Really, intentional mass suicide strikes don't happen that often. And it has been stated repeatedly that one guy hammering their bombs into 1 FH isn't going to make a big difference. However I do agree that CVs are too easy to kill. Any solution that involves perking bombs blows chunks. So does my idea about a timer on ordinance. These are the only ways we have come up with of dealing with this (I use the term very lightly) "problem" and they stink because it makes the game LESS FUN. They could make it a bannable offense to suicide bomb. But tough if it even looks like you did it on purpose.
This next part is very important
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If you guys have a problem with suicide runs then get your butts to 25k+ and patrol friendly airspace. If you run a cap right none of these alleged "morons" are going to get through.
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If you guys have a problem with suicide runs then get your butts to 25k+ and patrol friendly airspace. If you run a cap right none of these alleged "morons" are going to get through.
I don't agree, and neither do you. The whole point here is that it's not just one or two guys hammering the base. The scenario we're discussing here is when there are about 10-12, or more. How are you going to cap against that? You would need an equal number of cappers in the air at all times. The radar may already be dead, so you wont know when that Tiffie raid is coming.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don't agree, and neither do you. The whole point here is that it's not just one or two guys hammering the base. The scenario we're discussing here is when there are about 10-12, or more. How are you going to cap against that? You would need an equal number of cappers in the air at all times. The radar may already be dead, so you wont know when that Tiffie raid is coming.
Well a raid that size gets plenty of warning when a big red bar pops up on the map. 10 minutes at least before fully loaded very sluggish aircraft arrive at the base. Thats plenty of time to up a fleet of La7s. How many times has a radio warning preceded one of these raids? Probably close to 100% of the time someone comes on the country channel and says "alert ##". But noone defends because they can't be bothered to. So the field gets leveled. The sector counters hardly ever go out so the attack will always be painfully obvious.