Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Moose11 on March 16, 2001, 10:10:00 AM
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Got the PIII last night and had a hell of a time getting the heatsink to fit over the processor. The clips just were too damn tight.
well, I got it, and everything ran fine. Left the machine running and went to bed.
Woke up this morning with the blue screen of death. Machine wouldn't start up without freezing. I figured it was a heat problem, but what I never expected was to see the heatsink half off. Evidently it somehow slipped off.
Is it supposed to as tight as it could possibly be? (with the white material gooing all over the processor?) And how can I prevent the damn thing from falling off again?
Oh yeah - framerate in Aces High didn't really change all that much. Kind of a disappointment since I went from a 450 to a 800.
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Heatsinks should fit nice and snug...be careful tho, or you can damage the processor.
Someone makes a real funky gold anodized circular in design heatsink which works much better than the stock one.
BTW...you should have realized a decent gain in fps with that upgrade...what vid card do you use?
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Ice
13thTAS
It's not the Big that kill the Small, but the Fast that kill the Slow!
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I upgraded my PII400 to a PIII600 not too long ago. I didn't know it at the time but I bought an OEM processor, no heatsink and not totaly encased (SLOT1). I went out and bought a heat sink and it seemed to attach fine. I am not sure what you mean by "white gooey material". That sounds rather scary. Is your processor a slot1?
My FRs increased by about 20% in AH. I have a Viper550 vid card and I am certain that the graphics card is now my bottleneck.
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I have a V770 video card. Need to a Gefarce now.
It's nice and snug allright. Lol. Socket 370 processor is what I have, sorry for not explaining that.
I've just never heard of the fricken heatsink falling off of the processor. I'm hoping that it had some sort of manual shutdown because I don't know how long it was like that. Any way to test how badly damaged a processor is?
The white stuff on the back of the heatsink is to deter heat off the contact point of the ondie cache or whatever that small blue rectangle is. (I'm an expert on PIIs and below, so I've never seen this before)
I'm just worried that the heatsink is crushing the processor.
Does someone know exactly how to install a Retail PIII? I'm looking for an explanation of 'All the small things.'
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Moose,
I have had the heat sink fall off before.. gooey stuff and all.
Gawd man.. get that thing up and running... your squad needs you!
Wolfie out.
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Was there any longterm damage to the processor?
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Also,
When setting up aces high, I imported my profile that I had saved before reformatting.
When running Aces high however, it did not load the profile... I didnt try restarting (went to bed) but what could be *that* problem?
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I'm using Titan Majesty heatsink/fan in my oc'd PIII. It has really nice "push and twist" system to tight it on CPU.
Alpha and GlobalWin coolers might be best in market but I'm fully satisfied with my Majesty too.
http://www.2cooltek.com/ (http://www.2cooltek.com/)
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The white material that you are refering to as I believe to be a special paste that suppose to transfer hit from processor to the sink itself. The contact in between 2 surfaces never can be perfect and thus using such paste u making sure that everything will go ok. Some BIOS will have a Temperature reading from processor and as it will get to high it will shout it down. I suggest u running some tests on your machine, however if it is working - it should be ok. In fact overheating your processor suppose to make it run faster (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Take that heat sink to where did you bought it from and stick it up theire prettythang. For the price of that PIII it should never happened... Hope everything will work out for you...
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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You should only have/apply a very thin layer of heat transfer compound to the heatsink.
They will fit tight, but should not have "gobs of white stuff squeezing out all over." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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It's not gobs of paste - just a thin layer that was already on the heatsink.
However, some of it melted so it has a small line of it dripping down the CPU.
Hopefully the system will run allright. I'm more interested in finding out how it slipped off and if I can prevent that before closing the case up again..
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Originally posted by Staga:
I'm using Titan Majesty heatsink/fan in my oc'd PIII. It has really nice "push and twist" system to tight it on CPU.
Alpha and GlobalWin coolers might be best in market but I'm fully satisfied with my Majesty too.
http://www.2cooltek.com/ (http://www.2cooltek.com/)
I got the same as well..
People told me to be aware of it being hard to install, but it was just as easy as you said.
(maybe they tried to put it on without twisting? hehe)
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More thoughts
I was just reading that there are foam spacers to put between the cpu and heatsink. (the blue square thing is elevated a little..)
What's the deal with this?
All help appreciated, the more I get the faster I'll be a target for you guys
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I'd clean that white toejam off and replace it with a very thin coating of a good heat transfer compound like Arctic Silver.
Though you may not be using Actic Silver, their instructions will give you some good information. http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm (http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm)
Now that foam bit is likely there to prevent you from damaging the chip. Still, if it's like foam or something I can't imagine it will conduct heat very well. I think I'd take it off. Proper spacers are normally made of copper like these ones: http://216.157.14.244/spacers.htm (http://216.157.14.244/spacers.htm)
The trick is, you must clean both the chip and the HSF (HeatSink & Fan) with alcholol or something first. Then you apply a tiny bit of heat transfer compound to the heat slug (the small square part) of the CPU. Now VERY CAREFULLY position and clip on your HSF. Be careful not to twist or slide it if possible during the install. Most importantly, the HSF must sit perfectly level on the heat slug of the CPU. If it doesn't make contact properly it WILL get to hot.
Now, because this is an Intel chip, it's not a huge worry. The Intel chips will actually shut down if they get overloaded and protect the CPU from damage. The AMD's will just burn up.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-16-2001).]
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Bah! Dry ice will work beautifully in there. Give you a real cool <cough> cloud effect too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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While we're on the subject of heat here's a few tips for anyone.
1) If your vid card is overheating (mine does every day) then pop some of the filler strips for the PCI ISA slots. If you want to remove them and not just losen the screw, get a small piece of screen to stick over the openings. This will keep out dust, cat hair, and most anything. When it gets clogged just replace the screen. Sometimes that'll give you a little extra air flow to cool things down.
2) Bay coolers work wonders! It's just a fan on a PCI or ISA card that blows air around. Just watch out for your card slot design inside the case. Just stick the thing right under your vid card or in another slot; it'll cool things right down.
3) Worst case scenario; take the side-panel of the case off and point a fan at it. I'm not to this point yet, but I'm getting there fast. If you're good with a saw you can slice an opening in the top or side panel and stick a small fan in there. I've seen it done once with excellent results, but don't do this unless you know what you're doing and are desperate!
Oddly enough, original Pentiums (raises hand) and some PII's don't heat up that much. My heat sink stays fairly cold all the time. It's not secured to the chip with heat transfer goo, just a metal clip. I've put a finger on the processor after I shut down the system and it was ice cold. Try the same thing with my vid card and you'd burn your finger. Probably gonna buy a bay cooler this weekend since that thing is getting way too hot.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Heat sink compound is a must... you'll get 10-20 degrees cooler just by using it.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
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Double fan cases work pretty well, I have a P 1GHZ, and the second fan (slightly larger in diameter then the transformer/power supply fan) that ducts the air from the frontal vents, over the GF2 Ultra, and through the double sinks on the CPU. It has a quick snapping assembly to remove the ducting over the chip, and pop clips for the heat sinks.
Overall, the chip never gets over 101 degrees. I'd overclock but I have no reason to right now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.step-thermodynamics.com/images/k7000.jpg)
Blurb from website: http://www.step-thermodynamics.com/CoolingSystems.htm (http://www.step-thermodynamics.com/CoolingSystems.htm)
This Cooling System is custom designed for the most Hard Core users. We have run our ThunderBird CPU's up to 1400MHz+ at 1.90V+ with positively no heat issues under even the most stressful applications. Quite bluntly, our KODIAK 7000 Cooling System matched to our ThrottleBody™ Accelerator Card yields results unmatched by anyone. Period. As they say, no one else comes close! Works with all Socket 370 and Socket A motherboards, and includes a free tube of our unbeatable STEP ThermaSeal CPU Compound!
These guys have awesome deals if your looking to upgrade or build a new system.
1) If your vid card is overheating (mine does every day)
What video card are you running? I have a TNT2 V770 Pro that came sans cooling fan, I bought a fan for a Pentium CPU and it screwed right onto the stock Viper heatsink.
I flashed the cards BIOs with the V770 Ultra BIOs <thnx Kbman> and have a Ultra for less $$$ that never overheats! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There is a lot of good cooling info here - http://www.overclockers.com/home.asp (http://www.overclockers.com/home.asp) also.
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Moose - there is a possibility of damage. With the heatsink off, that puppy can get really hot. Since it sounds like it is back up and running, the die obviously didn't crack - a real possibility when run sans heatsink. But depending on what clock speed you were running, core voltages, etc, it could get really hot.
As chips get hot, the atoms that make up the chip features can start to diffuse at much higher rates than normal. Basically the features start to blur out. With the small feature size and high heat, they can blur out pretty fast and bad.
Since it still runs, what you might see is more of a tendency to lock up as the chip warms up. Your motherboard probably came with a utility to monitor CPU temperature - if you see lockups, I'd install that and see if it happens at a certain temperature threshold. Actually, it's good to install anyway since depending on your motherboard, you can check voltages and temps anyway.
You might consider taking the CPU and heatsink back where you got them or try returning them if mail order to get an exchange. I can't say on the PIII, but on my Athlon T-Bird, there are little round supports around the edge of the chip to stabilize the heat sink. If your CPU was missing them, it might be a good case for a "defective" part that cause the sink to slip off.
One other thing - I think the PIII has the same flip-chip style design that the T-Bird has. If so, then that square in the center is the actual silicon of the CPU and is very fragile. The instructions that came with my T-Bird point out just how fragile it is and how you have to be really careful when putting on a heat sink or you can break the CPU in two.
Best luck man. That really sucks. With the high heat though, I'd do whatever you can to get it replaced. It could be a really marginal chip now. Other solution is if it gets flaky is just to run it at a lower clock but then you sacrifice performance.
EDIT: Just read Lephturn's post - looks like you might have gotten lucky with the shutdown feature.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"I see dead people"
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 03-16-2001).]
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The white stuff is Thermal glue.
Tip 1: Dont use it. Its actually not dissapating heat as fast as a bare connection to the Heat sink.
The blue foam thingy is a Thermal pad.
Tip 2: Remover this from heat sink with a razor. Also does not dissapte heat as fast as a bare heat sink.
Ice is talking about the Globewin fan, thats what im useing. It a big bastage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dog out........
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Um Wardog - everything I've ever seen says that using thermal paste or phase-change thermal material is way better than nothing at all.
Unless both surfaces are perfectly flat and smooth you will get better heat transfer using the above heat transfer materials. And I mean perfectly. It's why they are made and why they've been around for years - they work.
You want to use no more than necessary to fill any voids and surface imperfections but you do want to use it. Not using it is asking for hot chips and premature failure.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"I see dead people"
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I'm using a Creative Banshee with a little plastic waffle-style heatsink. Even 5 minutes after I shutdown it's still warm, which is why I'm buying a bay cooler. There's two slots open under the vid card and I'm planning on sticking the bay cooler right under the sucker. It just gets too hot. I'm a little lost as to what the size of my power supply is. There's no sticker visible and pulling it would involve me stripping half the system.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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For overclockers, or anyone concerned about heat...
Look for coolers by:
Globalwin
Alpha
Orb
SKurj
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Before buying an Orb cooler, see the reviews at Sharkey Extreme or Tom's Hardware. The Orbs look really neat but apparently have problems with interferences with nearby components and just don't do a good job of cooling - one of the lowest rated.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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Pakrat..
Wrong, anything between the Heatsink and CPU and i mean anything does not dissapate heat as fast as can be done with bare Metal on CPU.
Tip 3: this i didnt mention as it is for the hard core O/C guys..
Wet sand the CPU (sand paper must be on a flat level block.) with fine grit. Your taking the top layer of silicon off the center of the processor. As you come to the bare metal of the CPU stop every second stroke to make sure you arent going into the metal. Then fit the Bare Heatsink and sand till a perfect fit.
Do not use thermal Glue, Do not use a Themal Pad.
Like i said, not for the faint of heart. But this is the best and fastest way to get rid of heat. How do i know? been over clocking my CPUs for 9 years now.There is also a ton of info on cooling if ya spend a little time looking for it.
And if ya dont think a 1 degree variance wont make a difference, think again. Heat is the worst enemy of any system components.
Dog out..........
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If you want to see the heatsink that I want for my CPU, go to www.tomshardware.com (http://www.tomshardware.com) and find their recent heatsink article. They review one called the "Silverado" made by a company called Noise Control. It has a silver slug (yes, silver as in the metal silver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) on the bottom. Unfortunately I've tried, but never managed, to find where I could buy it. I haven't even managed to find the manufacturer's web site. You guys need to see this one, it's pretty neat.
(BTW: If you are wondering why they use silver, that's because silver is the best electrical and thermal conducting metal. That's a trivia question that most people don't know about, silver is actually a better conductor than gold. Gold is used because it is much easier to work with and does not tarnish.)
More random thoughts:
1. Intel CPUs have a thermal diode, AMD has yet to include this for some reason. (They are including one on the new Athlons coming out in April. They are going under the codename Palomino. )
2. I wish I would have been the one to think of selling a fan hooked to a $.60 1A To-220 package Adjustable Voltage Regulator chip and marketed it as an "accelerator card." LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) Take that silly thing off and let the fan run at full speed. It doesn't hurt the CPU to run cooler. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I use those chips daily to build little projects, so I'm not dumb enough to think that they improve the performance of a fan. Now if they changed the design and placed a small switching power supply and boost LC circuit on there to actually *raise* the voltage, that would be a good idea. (Hmm, now that's got me thinking. I sense some overheating fans in my near future. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I think I've got some Mosfets in a drawer and I know I've got a spare 555 timer lying around. Now if I can find a few caps and an inductor or two I'm all set. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Read this:
http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/cooling/roundup0301/ (http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/cooling/roundup0301/)
Wardog, you are correct that die directly on HSF is the best interface, but unless you are going to lap (sand down until smooth and perfectly flat) both the CPU slug top and the heatsink, it may not be the best course of action. A bit of good paste like Arctic Silver will fill the gaps between imperfectly matched surfaces and give you a better mating. The mistake most folks make is to use too much thermal compound, which ends up being too thick and not allowing as much metal-metal contact. A very thin layer of good heat compound will only fill the "gaps", and should give you a better mating in most regular situations.
For most users, I would recommend a thin layer of good thermal paste. I've seen some HSF surfaces that were pretty far off of being flat that would give you a really bad mating if you didn't have a little paste in there. Some are better than others, but I still say use a tiny bit of good paste unless you are willing to lap your CPU slug and HSF unit to get a nearly perfect mating.
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-18-2001).]
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Wardog...
Wrong. Wet sanding the CPU only decreases the flatness and the surface area between the CPU and the heat sink. The "top layer of silicon" as you call it *is* the CPU. The whole thing is made of silicon and the various layers that make a silicon wafer into an integrated circuit. The circuit layers are on the bottom and the techniques used now is called flip-chip bonding.
There is no bare metal layer - if you reach the circuitry, your chip is already way past dead. You would need to understand how these chips are made to understand. I'll turn your comment back to you - there is a ton of info on cooling if you spend time looking for it.
The wafers used to make CPUs are precision polished to degrees of flatness that no home user would ever hope to match. These are single crystals of silicon polished to be as flat as possible as the features being photoetched and ion implanted are literally a few layers of atoms thick. Wet sand that baby and you will put a nice dome on the top of your CPU which will induce stress when clamped and limit the area over which heat can transfer.
As a primer, heat flow is proportional to temperature difference, area, and thermal conductivity. When you sand the surface you are putting millions of gouges in the surface limiting the contact area to whatever high ridges are between the gouges and since you aren't using any thermal compound, to the air trapped in the gouges. Bad heat transfer. If you wet sand your chip then you more than anyone else ought to be using thermal grease or phase change material.
The only thing sanding down the die does is limit the distance in silicon the heat has to travel at the expense of CPU die strength. Already there are specifications on how heavy a heatsink can be to limit the chance of cracking the CPU die during shipping shocks. Get it too thin and you bring that threshold down to the area where just clamping on a heatsink could fracture the die.
Wet sanding the die is about the worst advice I've ever seen on a board.
Have you actually sanded your own chip down? And if so, as such a serious overclocker you should have before and after numbers. What are they? Would you be so kind as to point me to those web pages that encourage people to literally roughen the surface of the chip and then not use any heat sink compound? Inquiring minds want to know.
I have read lots of overclocking and cooling information over the years - being an overclocker since before IBM put code in their BIOS on their PCs to test for overclocked CPUs (where you booted at one speed and then switched to high speed after the boot was finished).
And I agree completely that heat is an enemy of system components. It causes those tiny features to diffuse. If you want to get technical, do you by any chance know the rate equation?
I find it odd that AMD, Intel, and anyone else using flip-chip bonding don't encourage sanding down the die and using no thermal compounds between die and heat sink. In fact, they go quite the opposite and preach not even touching the die due to the oils on fingers having a lower thermal transfer coefficient than the phase change material. I also find it odd that there are many companies whose entire product line is nothing but thermal compounds designed specifically to go between chip or chip package and heat sinks.
I should probably say that I do electronics and instrumentation for a living and have to keep up with the different technologies out there. I have never, ever, seen anything like this before. Quack science at its worst.
PakRat out......
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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Pakrat
Wet sanding is the worst adise to give anyone who has not been O/C there CPUs..
Thats why it wasnt included in my 1st post on this thread. I said it wasnt for the faint of heart. Ive tryed it and it does work. This is not for someone who is incompetent. Only those who have been doing it for year and have the experiance to know what there doing.
Thermal glue is just that A glue. From personal experiance monitering CPU heat there is a temp difference and for hi O/Cing of the CPU this is the only way to go.A few degree variance means life or death to the CPU.
You must know this since you seem to have done it yourself.
Dog out......
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Packrat and Wardog, I think you are both talking about different things.
Wardog, the whole packaging is not the chip. The tiny little peice of silicon at the center of the packaging is the chip.. the rest is simply packaging. Packrat is absolutely correct.. if you sand all the silicon (let me know what kind of sandpaper you use for that... I've very curious) down to the metal, you've effectively destroyed every transistor on the processor.
I believe these refferences are more along the lines of sanding the PACKAGING (ceramic, not silicon) and coming to metal structures in side of the PACKAGING.
IF you can get one completely smooth and flat surface to mate with another completely smooth and flat surface you are going to have optimal heat transfer.
In any other case, a good heat transfer compound LIGHTLY applied is an excellent solution. It should be applied only to fill in the voids and non-flat areas, but not to bridge the gap between surfaces that would be touching had it not been applied. The heat trasnfer pastes' main shortcoming is in its common misapplication. People treat it like glue with a 1/32" layer of it actually separating the heat sink from the ceramic.
AKDejaVu
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BTW, any "wet sanding" using anything other than a flat granite block as a backstop is pretty much worthless. You're simply replacing one version of not very flat with another version of it.
AKDejaVu
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Deja,
As I understand it that little square slug is not the CPU itself, but rather a slug of ... well something ... that sits directly on top of the die to help transfer heat. A little wet sanding will not kill it, but you have to use a very fine grain and be very careful.
BTW, a good way to do the sanding is with a piece of glass as a backing for the fine paper. You can normally get glass that is as close to "perfectly flat" as you can find easily. The main reason to do anything at all to the heat slug on the CPU is to remove some of the lettering and such that you do find on these CPU heat slugs. The only thing that typically needs to be smoothed and flattened to any degree is the heatsink part of the combination.
All of that aside, this isn't something I would recommend unless you are experienced, very careful, have the right tools, and are willing to buy a new CPU if you botch it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) For most folks, a $7 tube of Arctic Silver applied properly is a far better solution.
Wardog,
Have you had much experience mating the HSF and CPU with no grease without sanding anything? That would make me nervous, but I've never tried it that way. If you have I'd love to hear your results. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Nope - that square in the middle of the new processors *is* the die itself. It is the back side - the side that wasn't etched or had circuitry deposited on it. It is silicon. Very brittle and if you look at a reflection on one you will see it is very flat. That is a very fragile part and the reason the CPU manufacturers say to be very careful when attaching the heatsink. Put it on crooked and you can overstress and crack the die. But it is definitely the silicon die itself.
The manufacturers went to this style of packaging because it allows better heat transfer out of the die - the die itself is what makes contact to any heat sink.
Glue/compound/phase change material - it's all pretty much the same (except maybe the foams). All help to get better heat transfer than just chip/heatsink contact itself.
The CPU die flatness is not the problem anyway. As was pointed out (over and over) it is exceptionally flat. The surface that needs to be smoothed out otherwise generally is the heatsink. The extruded parts have little ridges in them that limit the direct contact area. All sanding the chip does is shorten the thermal path by a millimeter if that. Whoo hoo! Distance being a factor in removing heat, this will help the heat transfer.
But sanding (or lapping) the CPU die is bad advice. Really bad advice. Not using any thermal compound is also bad advice.
But hey, they are your CPUs - do what you want.
---
PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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Leph, glass is not a very smooth surface. A common misconception.
I haven't seen the latest packaging material, but I do believe PakRat to be correct. If you are seeing a little square in the middle that is about 10mm x 11mm, then it is actually the processor.
I'm not sure if gold is dep'd on the back of the processor anymore since what PakRat is describing eliminates the need for it (cost savings too). But the back of the microchip is essentially glass and is much smoother than anything you will find virtually anywhere.
Also, it is important to remember what adheres the chip to the packaging. Solder bumps (actually lead).. and that is all. Little 80um bumps on the top of the chip that are heated to bond with the packaging. Sure there's a ton of them on the top of the chip, but it doesn't really take that much to break one of the bonds.
Also, the chip has been ground down. The silicon portion shouldn't be too much more than .3 mm thick. It doesn't take much to cleave that thin of a glass surface.
AKDejaVu
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I have a 1GHz T-bird with a Cooler Master fan and heatsink. I looked at Arctic Silver compound, and it was $13.00 for compound and $12.00 for shipping. I picked up some good old heatsink compound from Radio Shack for $1.97 plus tax. My temp after an afternoon of Aces High is 105 degrees F with an inlet and exhaust fan in my Enlight 7237 box, and the fan is quiet...........I like it!
Thorns
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Using a Chrome Orb from ThermalTake on my 1ghz Athlon. Seems to keep it fairly cool. Never seen it over 109 F. I also have 2 intake fans and 2 exhaust fans plus a slot fan in my case. It starts out a bit warm in Hawaii, so I've found that I need it. I tried letting the sides off, but my cats wouldnt cooperate with that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I also used the cheapo thermal compund from Radio Shack. I think this is my 4th PC using it, and never had any problems.
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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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Dejavu got it right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Your sanding the sealant on the center of the CPU.
Pakrat is part right concerning Thermal Glue. After you sand/lap the CPU put a little thermal glue on a cloth to clean the dust off the CPU, as the glue is non conducting. Then thoughly clean all the Thermal glue off.
Deja, i started as the article i was reading said to use 400, 600, 800 and 1000 grit. I now use the 400 to break through the sealant only, 2 to 3 strokes. Ive got a piece on machined Steel i use. Just think of it like an anvil.
(http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/lappin1.jpg)
(http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/lappin3.jpg)
I ran into a web site last year and will go through my papers and email you the link.
They did this with a PIII-700 running fine at 980mhz...
Ive built about 50+ machines, its a hobbie. About 14 or 15 i O/Ced as i have parts around the house i can experiment.
Dog out...........
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Wardog-
Deja said the same thing I did. The square in the middle *IS* the CPU die itself. That is silicon - not a slug of metal.
I did not say anything about thermal glue other than that it was similar to thermal grease. It is just a high heat transfer material.
It sounds like all you are doing is sanding off the polished surface and getting to the bare silicon. This does nothing more than roughen the surface (scratch marks are very visible in the bottom photo). Every scratch mark is decreased surface area over which to make thermal contact.
Do what you want. There are really nice white papers at both Intel and AMD websites about proper heatsinking of these types of CPUs. None say to omit thermal compound and none recommend sanding the surface.
They do recommend phase change over other transfer compounds. The whole deal about phase-change thermal compound is as the CPU heats up, the phase change material thins and flows. Under spring tension it adjusts to give the closest possible contact between CPU and heat sink.
I still say this is really bad advice. But again, it's your CPU.
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There are many way of dealing with heat when over clocking a pIII 700 to a 980.
This is one way, not adiving anyone to do this, i do it because i can afford the parts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Dog out.........
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My SL45Y is running 933 with Majesty heatsink/fan; Havent tried bigger speeds yet. Too lazy to hone it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Thanks for the pics wardog.. I hadn't seen any flip-chip processors... didn't know they were that much different from the old ceramic packaged ones. I can see why we went to them? Err.. wait.. did I say "we".. I ment Intel.
I wouldn't sand much on that chip. And it won't matter how flat of a sanding surface you use.. you'll just be scratching the glass, not smoothing it out.
I can see the purpose if it means removing the adhesive/protectant from the back of the processor, but I think that NOBODY posting these articles has any idea of all the ramifications.
AKDejaVu