Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: LoneStarBuckeye on September 09, 2002, 11:26:42 AM
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I would like to preface this post by stating that I am only an average fighter pilot (if I'm lucky), so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I am only posting this so that some pilots new to flight sims can benefit from my experience.
I have been flying AH somewhat consistently for about 9 or 10 months now. Before I began flying AH, I had no experience with flight sims, on-line or otherwise. When I first started flying, it was brutal and demoralizing. I got killed five or ten times for every time I got lucky and managed to shoot someone down. In attempt to get better, I read everything I could find on ACM (i.e., air combat maneuvers) and BFM (i.e., basic flight maneuvers), including Shaw's book on fighter combat and the plethora of articles at http://www.simhq.com and other places on the web. (If you're as new to this as I was, there is no substitute for a little education.) I also spent a good deal of time reading this board, and while I did garner a good bit of useful information, I also read a number of posts that, in retrospect, I believe hindered my progress.
In particular, if you spend any amount of time at all perusing this board, you will find, as I did, many posts deriding planes like the several Spitfires, labeling them "dweeb" planes or the like. Many of those posts also make claims like "You will never learn to fly ACM or BFM if you fly planes like the Spit." The upshot of thoses posts is that to learn to fly in any manner other than just pulling as hard as your plane will allow in a flat circle, you have to learn to fly more "challenging" planes, like the American or LW rides (Note: with the addition of the F4F and FM2 to AH's plane set, the Americans now have planes that share some of the "dweeby" characteristics of the Spitfires). Thus, in a desire to get better and to avoid exploiting some "unfair" advantage of the "dweeby" planes, I spent the better part of a year struggling to get better while largely avoiding the Spitfire.
Now that I have been flying the Spits (IIc, V, and IX) fairly regularly for a bit, I have some observations on why I think that they are excellent planes for new (and old) pilots to fly and in which to learn ACM/BFM:
1. As you will soon find out, a high percentage of the planes that you will encounter in the Main Arena are "dweeby" planes. A typical (but probably incomplete) list of "dweeb" planes is: any Spit, N1K2-J, La-7, and Yak-9u.
NOTE: As far as I can tell, the following factors contribute to a plane being labeled "dweeby": (a) it has multiple cannons, particularly the Hispanos of the British planes; (b) it maintains its e (i.e.,energy) while maneuvering relatively well; (c) it accelerates and/or climbs relatively well; (d) it is relatively fast.
If you choose to fly one of the more "challenging" planes and actually want to dogfight, you will find, particularly when starting out, that you can only successfully engage one of the "dweeb" planes if you have a considerable energy (i.e., speed, altitude, or both) advantage at the outset. Thus, you will be in the unpleasant position of having to run from every co-e (i.e., equal energy) Spit, La-7, or N1K2-J that you encounter. That is not only no fun and not instructive, but also it fosters a defensive, unagressive mindset.
2. As a follow-on from the previous point, the only way to learn to survive in a dogfight is to actually dogfight. You can read all you can find on yo-yos, barrel rolls, lag displacement rolls, scissors, rolling scissors, etc., but until you have performed those maneuvers often enough that they become second nature, you will never be able to rely on them in combat. Thus, repetition is the key. Flying the more "challenging" planes, you will find yourself either running or making quick, hit-and-run passes most of the time (or else, when you are new, you will be dying quickly and often). As a consequence, you simply will not have the opportunity to develop those ACM/BFM skills. Many of the pilots that post on these boards have been flying on-line flight sims for years and probably cannot remember the time when basic ACM/BFM was not second nature. But to the new pilot (at least to me), ACM/BFM is anything but intuitive.
3. In my experience, one of the best (and most enjoyable) environments in which to dogfight is field or fleet defense. In those situations, you will typically find your field or carrier being assaulted by hordes of fighters, all of which will have an energy advantage over planes like yours that are just taking off. If you manage to get airborne, you will likely find yourself awash in a sea of red icons. In those situations, planes like the Spit V and Spit IIc really shine, because they are quite maneuverable at relatively low speeds (the corner velocity (i.e., optimal turning speed) for a Spit V at sea level is probably not much more than 200 or 225 mph) and will tend to retain their energy well during agressive maneuvering. This is perhaps the ideal environment in which to quickly amass dogfighting experience; there may be no better "target-rich environment" in the game. A side benefit of flying in these sorts of environments is that you will naturally improve your SA (situational awareness) and your ability to mentally track multiple contacts. You will also learn how to neutralize a bogey's energy advantage. Once you can get a less maneuverable fighter into a situation where it has expended its energy advantage, you have gone most of the way to winning the fight.
The Spits are well-armed with dual cannons, and this is a very good opportunity to exploit those cannons and get better at deflection shooting (i.e., shooting from a position other than directly behind your opponent). This is one thing that I am not very good at but which is absolutely critical if you are ever going to fly a "more challenging" fighter. In planes like the P51, P47, or Dora, you will rarely be able to "saddle up" on a bogey's six o'clock for a zero-deflection shot. Instead, most of your shots will be high-speed, (realatively) high deflection shots.
4. Flying planes like the Spit, you will often find yourself "bounced" by higher fighters like the P51, P47, Dora, Bf 109, etc. You will quickly find out that such "bounces" are relatively simply to counter, provided you see your attacker. Learning how to avoid such passes will make you better if you eventually decide to fly planes like those (actually, you can quite successfully fly the Spit IIc, V, or IX as a "boom-and-zoom" plane), beause you will understand the evasive maneuvers that your opponent is likely to employ.
5. I believe that one key to being a successful dogfighter is outthinking your opponent. A primary aspect of doing so is understanding, visualizing, and exploiting the geometry of the fight. In my experience, this is the most challenging aspect of ACM/BFM, but to be really accomplished (which I certainly am not), I think you must master this (which I have not). (I think that exploiting geometry is even more important when flying the more "challenging" planes.) Again, the only way to master geometry is to dogfight, which you will probably find yourself doing more often in a plane like a Spit than in a P51, P47 or Dora.
6. Dogfighting and using ACM/BFM (as opposed to just pulling as hard as you can, trying to gain angles on your bogey) has the ancillary benefit of helping you to become proficient with the AH view system. Because you will find yourself in all conceivable relative positions with respect to your bogey, it will become second nature to use the AH's (excellent) view system to keep a tally on him.
7. There is one aspect of fighter combat that you need not master in order to be somewhat successful in a Spit: energy conservation and management. You can often get a kill in a Spit, pulling as hard as you can and expending most of your available energy cache. The typical result, particularly in a furball environment, is that you are low and slow and easy prey for any enemey fighter that has some energy in the bank. If you discipline yourself by conserving energy and expending it only when necessary to give you the kill or gain a decisive advantrage, you will find yourself getting shot down much less frequently and getting multi-kill sorties. One way to do this without really thinking about it is to try to turn in the vertical, rather than purely horizontal (when you go "up," you are necessarily converting some of your speed to potential energy, thus conserving it). As you learn to exploit the geometry of dogfights, you will naturally find yourself turning in the vertical anyway. A side benefit is that you are learning good habits that will translate well to whatever plane you may choose to fly. Indeed, to fly the more "challenging" fighters well, you must focus on energy management. I believe that this is why some folks who fly those planes instruct new pilots not to "learn bad habits" in planes like the Spits.
8. In my opinion, dogfighting is just more fun than making repeated, boom-and-zoom passes the way that most P51 and 190 pilots fly (the 190-A5 is actually a very capable dogfighter, although given pilots of equal ability, it will usually lose a co-e engagement with a Spitfire). There are many very good pilots who fly those planes much more agressively and, I believe, to much greater effect. To do so, however, requires mastery of all of the ACM/BFM skills that I believe you can learn most quickly by flying a plane like one of the Spitfires. If you just jump into a P51, P47, or Dora and try to dogfight in it, I think you will quickly get discouraged.
So, go ahead and fly your Spit--you can have fun and get better at the same time!
- JNOV
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Better advice for new pilots:
Fly EVERY plane. Find one you enjoy. It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you have fun in it.
The first things any new pilot should do is, practice gunnery and SA. Save ACM for later. The best way to do this is to find the furballs and dive into them.
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Nice Spitfire propaganda.;)
Well I for one belong to those guys avoiding flying the Spitfire, so I may be one guy of the anti-Dweebfire fraction. Then again I like the Yak-9U so I may be a Dweeb myself (well i admitt it I am a Dweeb). :D
Against the most propaganda against the Spitfire I think it is a pretty poor plane. Don't get me wrong it really is a nice plane which is nice to fly and so, but it doesn't have this miracle "press for kill" button most people seem to see in it.
The Spit 9 for example is good in most aspects (turn, climb, E retention, roll rate), but it is not the best in any one of them. Most planes of the planeset can top the spit 9 in one or two certain points. The P-51 is faster, the P-38 the better allrounder, the 190 and Yak outrolls it, the niki's and zeke's outturns it and some of the 109's outclimbs it while the ones which doesn't outturn it. So a good pilot who knows the good sides of his plane will be able to spot the one or other aspect which he can use to catch the spit or at least to don't let the spit 9 to catch him. So after all the basic principle of flying the Spit 9 succesfull is to hope to meet not very good pilots who make enough mistakes to let you kill them. Also you don't necessary need pilots worse than yourself. You just have to run into peoples who are bad with the certain plane they're flying like the P-51, so you can get them shot down, while they might be better pilots if you would meet them spit 9 vs spit 9... I think that's what make the Spitfires a Dweeb plane for so great many. But actually it is more likely a "Dweebhunter" plane, because you get only pilots who make mistakes with their rides or just lose the patience, which is also a big mistake I do quite frequently.;)
Well I for one don't like to rely on the hope that all the other guys I run into are not very well skilled pilots. I like to have a crate that is equipped to counter aces, so when I get shot down I can't blame the plane. After all (to use Chuck Yeager) it's the man not the machine, isn't it?;)
But after all that is all wasted time, since you can't order folks what they have to fly, can you? (uhm HT could... ;) )
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The best way to learn a plane is to fly it. Sure, you may get shot down a whole lot more in a plane you're unfamiliar with, but you gain the advantage of knowing how that plane flies, and what its strengths and weaknesses are. As an example, I fly the P51B regularly. It is my "main" ride. However, I will up different planes to see what kind of characteristics they have. I can then utilize my knowledge to better fight against them when I'm back in the cockpit of my pony.
It all boils down to what you love. If you're a diehard spitfire fan, then fly it. If you're a huge fan of the Dora, then fly that. Don't worry about what anyone else claims, because each and every plane will be called a dweeb ride by someone. Granted, some will not be referred to as often -- ie I don't recall hearing anyone call a P40B a dweeb ride.
As was said, it can be very frustrating trying to learn to fly your favorite plane, especially when there are hordes of "dweeb" planes all around. Practice your gunnery. Then, practice it some more. Oh, one final thing, don't spray and pray...especially from distances of over 1k...that is the definition of dweebery ;)
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Thanks for the replies.
Innominate: (Nice (un)name, by the way!) I do not necessarily disagree with you--you won't last long in a furball without good SA and you won't kill anyone if you can't shoot! But I was motivated to write the post because I have been frustrated and confused trying to use ACM/BFM principles in my flying and because flying the Spits helped me with that problem.
Moreover, my gunnery (which, admittedly, is still not very good) has improved by flying planes that enable me to stay engaged for longer periods of time. For me, it was hard to get better when most of my shots were of the snap variety, made in quick, high-speed passes at extreme angles. If you get to practice with tracking shots, where you have a prolonged opportunity to observe the tracers' trajectories (and how those trajectories are affected by the g-load on your plane, convergence settings, etc.) with respect to your bogies, I think that you get better (at least I have). Spits are one plane (there are others, obviously) that can provide gun solutions yielding those types of shots on a regular basis. Plus, the Spits' Hispanos have flatter trajectories than the other cannons in the game, so the difficult task of estimating the appropriate lead and drop is less complicated for a new pilot than it would be if he were flying, say, a 109.
Also, when I was new, I found it difficult to jump from plane to plane. The AH flight models are of sufficient fidelity that there are considerable differences from plane to plane (even from Spit to Spit, 109 to 109, or 190 to 190), so if you're never flown in a flight sim before, continually switching planes can be a bit disorienting (at least it was for me). I do see the value in it, however, if only to learn the other planes' capabilities and weaknesses.
Geeesy: The point of the post was not to tout the Spits as the ultimate planes. (Although I do think that a case can be made for the Spit IX as one of the most balanced dogfighters in the plane set, because it bridges the gap between the energy and angles fighters quite nicely, climbs and accelerates well, and has a good cannon package.) The point of the post was really just to encourage new pilots who would fly the Spits but for the "dweeb" label to go ahead and do so. I wish I had flown the Spit consistently when I first started out and was trying to figure out how to employ abstract ACM/BFM principles in my flying.
- JNOV
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
The point of the post was really just to encourage new pilots who would fly the Spits but for the "dweeb" label to go ahead and do so. I wish I had flown the Spit consistently when I first started out and was trying to figure out how to employ abstract ACM/BFM principles in my flying.
I pretty much agree with you. A grimly-determined aviation fan will learn in any plane. He'll keep coming back for more, no matter how many times he gets shot down, and ultimately will learn how to do ACM. This was the route I took when I first learned. In retrospect, I probably would have learned it quicker by flying a more user-friendly plane, like the spit, that gives you the occasional kill to keep your morale from plummeting. I doubt that I am any better just because I learned on a harder plane. I suspect that there are a lot of people who aren't grimly-determined aviation fans, who would like to have some fun at this, and who get tired of being repeatedly blasted out of the air. You don't learn how to drive a car by starting with an Indy racer, nor, in fact, do you learn to fly an airplane by starting with a 747.
I think that those of us who talk about spitdweebs are really making fun of those pilots who have already acquired good ACM skills, yet continue to use the spit (or the Niki, or the La7). There's a sense that you should push yourself up the challenge ladder, rather than continuing to use the magic planes to beat up on people.
Or so it seems to me, at least.
- oldman
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I think that those of us who talk about spitdweebs are really making fun of those pilots who have already acquired good ACM skills, yet continue to use the spit (or the Niki, or the La7). There's a sense that you should push yourself up the challenge ladder, rather than continuing to use the magic planes to beat up on people.
Right on the money Oldmn!!! There is always the "it's my 15 dollars" argument but I can't help thinking how much more satisfaction I get from landing kills in a plane that really makes ya earn them.
I would say that you become a much smarter pilot by flying more challenging planes. You can't just dive in and go for broke in them, you have to have a lot more discipline. I would also disagree with the insinuation from the original poster that this make for a less aggressive pilot. You can be just as aggressive in a Jug or P40 or other non furballer (for lack of a better name) aircraft. You just have to know when to do it and when to hold off until you have the advantage. And before you can make that decision you have to have developed damned goo SA skills.
For the newbies, grab a spit, niki or LA-7, I will even advise you to do so. But if you have it mastered then move on....or be labeled a Dweeb!!!
That's my arrogant annoying 2 cents worth,
Avid
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Originally posted by AvidMC
Right on the money Oldmn!!! There is always the "it's my 15 dollars" argument but I can't help thinking how much more satisfaction I get from landing kills in a plane that really makes ya earn them.
The $15 argument is bull, considering I pay my $15 too. Just because you cough up $15 a month doesn't make you special in any way.
The "dweeb" planes are EXCELLENT newbie planes, for just that reason. But once you start getting kills in them, it's time to move on to something new. Once you have the basics of flying and shooting down, the higher eny planes are a hell of a lot more fun.
As for new pilots, don't worry about being a dweeb untill you're a good enough pilot that you should know better.
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Originally posted by Innominate
The $15 argument is bull, considering I pay my $15 too. Just because you cough up $15 a month doesn't make you special in any way.
The "dweeb" planes are EXCELLENT newbie planes, for just that reason. But once you start getting kills in them, it's time to move on to something new. Once you have the basics of flying and shooting down, the higher eny planes are a hell of a lot more fun.
As for new pilots, don't worry about being a dweeb untill you're a good enough pilot that you should know better.
How do you decide whats fun for someone else?
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Originally posted by Oldman731
I think that those of us who talk about spitdweebs are really making fun of those pilots who have already acquired good ACM skills, yet continue to use the spit (or the Niki, or the La7). There's a sense that you should push yourself up the challenge ladder, rather than continuing to use the magic planes to beat up on people.
Maybe some of us Spitdweebs have flown a large collection of planes regularly and with a great deal of success over the years, but we have decided to fly Spits because they're fun and a challenge in their own right.
Magic planes. LOL!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The notion that you don't "earn" your kills when flying a Spit is laughable, particularly if you fly it in situations where you are consistently outnumbered and at an energy disadvantage (e.g., field defense). If you are flying a P-51, P-47, Dora, etc. and get shot down by a Spit, either you did something unwise (e.g., got low and slow) or the Spit driver really "earned" his kill by anticipating your flight path and bisecting it with his cannons (i.e., by understanding and exploiting the geometry of the fight). Furthermore, many (if not most) of the planes that I encounter are other Spits, N1K2-Js, or La-7s.
The reason that I like to fly Spits is because I like to knife fight. The Spit is a better plane for that than the P-51, P-47, Dora, etc. Sure, you can knife fight in the heavy American or LW iron, but I for one am not good enough to be successful doing so. When you use a plane like a P-51, P-47, or Dora to dogfight, you are using it in a manner other than that for which it was designed. So, if you are successful doing so, then you are very skilled indeed. Most of the folks that I see flying those planes like that get killed, however, and I see more people flying them closer to the way that they were designed to be flown. It seems very unlikely that someone new to this genre is going to hop into a Jug and dogfight successfully.
I just don't think there's anything "magic" about the Spits. None of them are very fast, and their climb and acceleration is only adequate (see the excellent charts at http://www.netaces.org). They do hold energy well when maneuvering, but that is by design--they are light, relatively slow planes. If you are flying a faster, heavier plane, it will not retain energy as well under high-g loading. That is by design as well. (I will concede that in my completely uninformed opinion, the Spit IX seems to dive and handle at high speed better than I would expect. It seems to almost never compress, except for rolling a bit sluggishly at very high speeds. For that reason, I would much rather boom-and-zoom in a Spit IX and maybe even a Spit V than in a 109 of any stripe.)
Look at the numbers on Innominate's (excellent, by the way) web page (http://www.innomi.com/planes.php?sortby=killp_sort). The Spit IX's K/D ratio is barely over 1 (about the same as the P-51's), and the V's is below one. Hardly marks of uber planes. Granted, those K/D numbers probably belie the Spits' capabilities, as they are, to a certain extent, attributable to the fact that the average Spit pilot is likely less skilled than, say, the average 190 D-9 pilot. (Having said that, however, it is easier to live to fight another day in planes like the P-51 or Dora that can dictate the terms of the fight by disengaging at will.) In any case, I just don't understand why so many people make so much noise about a couple of planes that kill no more than they die.
If your point is that a pilot with a given K/D flying a P47D-11 is better than a pilot with the same K/D flying a Spit IX, I would say that in many cases you would be correct. I can live with that. :) Given my meager skills, AH is plenty challenging enough without my making it moreso by using the wrong tool for the job.
- JNOV
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I like LoneStarBuckeye’s point that its ok to fly Spits! It’s ok to fly whatever you want, actually. Most of the people complaining about dweebs have just been shot down by them so I love to hear that talk. :)
I am actually an La-7 dweeb for a couple of reasons; 1- it fits me. I started out flying Spits in AW and never did very well but when I learned more about energy fighting and tried various rides I came to love the Me109J (AW only) with the 35mm cannon and lots of speed. It suited my style of flying and the LA7 does that here. 2- Some people say you should move on after you master a plane and I agree to some extent but if I don’t fly often I lose my touch. I would be at a big disadvantage if I fly rarely and keep switching planes- I’m just not that good a pilot!
Good post LoneStarBuckeye and I hope it helps Newbies find their plane.
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Originally posted by cp52
I started out flying Spits in AW and never did very well but when I learned more about energy fighting and tried various rides I came to love the Me109J (AW only) with the 35mm cannon and lots of speed.
AW had the E,F,G and K models of the bf109. The K-4 had the 30mm cannon, not 35mm.
ack-ack
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have to agree with DMF I have flown mainly axis planes with the exception of the la5 and yak9t but this tour I am flying the spitfire mkI so far no kills but it is very fun to fly
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AW had the E,F,G and K models of the bf109. The K-4 had the 30mm cannon, not 35mm.
Absolutely right, thanks for the correction! Its been a while, now.
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
If your point is that a pilot with a given K/D flying a P47D-11 is better than a pilot with the same K/D flying a Spit IX, I would say that in many cases you would be correct.
Depends on the K/D ratio you're thinking about. About 1 or 1.5 you may be right, but anything higher you also need a very good Spitfire pilot to make that while you maybe need only a very patience and foreseeing Jug pilot for the same. The Jug wrong flown is an easy target but if you keep enough distance between you and the ground you can also disengage nearly any fight at will, except against a very few faster planes like the 262. The Spitfire isn't a good plane to hit the deck and run. You won't come far with that tactic, which actually is quite simple for the worst pilots. Additional Spitfires and all the other so called dweebplanes are number one targets in the main. I can't speak for all, but if I see a Spit and a Jug together I'll do my best to get the Spit first, and I see enough pilots doing the same too. So surviving the Spit ride is an art on its own. Flying a Spitfire with a K/D of 2 to 10 really isn't something less respectable than flying the P47 with that K/D's.
For example I've flown the Jug here ocassionaly with about the one time 9 kills in one sortie and another time 11 (P47-D30, in D-11 the max was something about 4 or 5), without refueling. I've flown the Spit IX and V nearly as often as the Jug (which are very a few times) but there my best sortie is at 3 kills, if I even come to get something to kill before I get shot down.;)
So well as a Dweeb I maybe have to say now that the P47 is a Dweebplane while the Spitfire is an experten plane.:D But actually the spit is just as I said a simple plane with some very major disadvantages with which the pilot have to deal with in order to fly it succesfull, as do the P-51, P-47 and 109 pilots with their disadvantages. The disadvanteges of the Jug are just a bit easier for me to deal with than the ones of the Spit. For others that may be the other way round.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Maybe some of us Spitdweebs have flown a large collection of planes regularly and with a great deal of success over the years, but we have decided to fly Spits because they're fun and a challenge in their own right.
Magic planes. LOL!
There will always be people whose experience and talent make them superior fliers in whatever plane they pick, and you, of course, are one. For these people, it really doesn’t matter what they fly, they will be successful. For the rest of us (which, I think, is probably the most of us), aircraft type has a significant effect on our ability to get kills. I really don’t want to resuscitate the age-old Spitfire debate, but I do think that one has to be rationalizing - or hallucinating - to avoid the conclusion that the Spit (at least the 5 and 9) is one of the easiest planes in which to get kills. Hey, there’s always going to be such a plane. If there were no Spit, it would probably be the Niki, and so on. New pilots should certainly fly these planes, because they have so many other things to think about, that later become second nature. I just think that, once some skill is acquired, the training wheels should come off the bike.
- oldman
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Oldman:
I'm not sure why you are so adamant that the Spits are among the easiest planes in which to get kills. Perhaps you have flown them and know that from experience. Fair enough. From my limited experience, I would agree that it is sometimes easier to get kills in a furball in a Spit V or IX than it is in a 109, 190, or P51. Nonetheless, that "advantage" is substantially--if not completely--outweighed by the Spits' inability to flee the scene and survive. Unlike a faster, pure energy fighter, a Spit generally has no option but to fight his way home.
So, even if it is true that it is relatively easy to get kills in a Spit, that does not mean that it is relatively easy to maintain a good K/D ratio in a Spit. Indeed, I would imagine that most good P51, P47, 190, and 109 drivers have very high K/D ratios against all of the Spits. When one of those planes dies to a Spit, it is only because its pilot allowed the Spit to kill it. They all have the ability to engage or disengage with the Spit at will.
- JNOV
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You and Oldman are discussing different points, and you're both right.
It is easier for the new player with little knowledge of flying to get kills in a Spit than a P51 or Dora. Likewise, it's easier for a player to survive and run away in a P-51 or Dora than in a Spit.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the N1K2's or Spits. They're great for new players and even some vets stick with them (not so many here as in AW).
The only real reason to ever switch planes has nothing to do with a "dweeb" label. As you gain experience, you might find an airplane which better suits your flying style or idea of fun. That is when you switch airplanes.
I started out in the Spit (Spit 9 was the only one in the game at that time) back in AW. Eventually I got to a point where I could hold my own fairly well 1 vs 1; that didn't help me much when I'd get stuck in 5 vs 1's. I selected a different plane that would allow me to get away from any potential "gang"....I picked it for one reason and one reason only...fastest plane in the game at low levels.....so I became a P-51 driver. I can say that it never let me down :)
I fly the 51D in AH because I trusted it so much in AW (I really couldn't care less about its historical rep)....the irony is it lacks the ability in AH that caused me to select it in AW in the first place!
So there's a lot of different reasons to pick a plane, and all of them are valid.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
So, even if it is true that it is relatively easy to get kills in a Spit, that does not mean that it is relatively easy to maintain a good K/D ratio in a Spit. Indeed, I would imagine that most good P51, P47, 190, and 109 drivers have very high K/D ratios against all of the Spits. When one of those planes dies to a Spit, it is only because its pilot allowed the Spit to kill it. They all have the ability to engage or disengage with the Spit at will.
True. At this point we have diverged in goals. If your goal is to maximize your kill-to-death ratio, it's obviously wise to stay alive and to swoop down to attack only when you can get away if you miss. I agree with you that the Spit is probably not the best plane for that style, although the 9s are not bad at it. But isn't this what you were originally worried about, that you would train people into bad habits? There's a lot more to this game than maximizing your kill to death ratio, or any other score, for that matter.
- oldman
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Oldman:
Agreed. I was not originally (and am not now) worried about maximizing one's K/D ratio. My original intent was to suggest that the Spits were good planes in which to learn ACM.
By my last post regarding K/D, I simply meant to illustrate that the allegedly "magic" Spits, like all planes, have disadvantages that offset their strengths.
I am curious, though. What are the "bad habits" to which you refer? I submit that if you fly a Spit and consistently improve your K/D ratio, you likely are not developing bad habits. (At least not "technical" bad habits like pulling until you burn all of your energy--who knows about other sorts of "bad habits" like leaving your wingmates stranded, refusing to engage without numerical superiority, etc.?) Indeed, you probably are developing at least good situational awareness and hopefully some ACM skill as well.
I know that it's a popular idea, but if you're suggesting that scores are no indication of ability, I reject that notion out of hand. I have fought and died at the hand of pilots with a K/D > 10 or so and, as far as I can tell (which, granted, may not be all that far), they didn't earn that number by being a slouch behind the stick. Sure, there are always ways to "game the game," but I don't think that one's scores are meaningless. In particular, scores can be meaningful to the individual who is aware of how he has flown over the course of successive tours, as a way to chart his progress.
- JNOV
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These are all excellent and intelligent replies to the discussion. I am going to save this post in my file of great AH topics!
Jason
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I agree with both sides, either that or I agree with niether side...:confused:
When I first started playing, I decided right away that I liked the German planes. I flew the 109 and the 190, and I sucked hugely at both of them lol. I was awful.
However, I do think that flying one of the more 'mediocre' planes is the way to learn fast if you are a new pilot that wants to learn how to fight. If you are a new pilot that wants to get some kills, a Spit or a N1K is definately the way to go. If you are a new pilot that wants to run away and hardly ever die, you can fly a La-7, P-51D, Tiffie, or 190-D9. But, if you are a new pilot that wants to learn how to FIGHT, and fight well, I'd recommend something like the P-38, C205, 190-A5, or 109G-2. Those planes are faster than the Spit and N1K2, but dont turn as well, so you have to learn to use your Energy wisely in order to kill those planes. Likewise, they are slower than the La-7 and company, but by and large they turn better, so you have to learn how to use angles and turnfighting tactics to come out the winner in those fights.
I think flying one of the 'jack of all trades' planes makes you a better pilot faster than flying either a turnfighter or a straight BnZ/ run like a chicken planes. Plus, you have the foundation for flying ANY plane successfully once you've mastered one of the 'middle of the road planes'.
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Fly whatever damn plane you want. Who cares if you suck in it initially? I sure don't, nor do I think that anyone besides you does either.
I fly the Hellcat for one reason and one reason alone. It is my 2nd favorite plane ever (behind the F-14, and for some reason, I don't see us getting that one anytime soon). I fly it because I like it. I don't fly it for any perceived or real strengths or weaknesses. I sucked at it in the beginning, but have gradually improved to adequate. Find a plane that you like and learn to fly it. Or, you could fly all sorts of planes and like all of them.
The beauty of AH is the fact that you can choose what plane you want to fly. Nobody chooses for you, even though many here would like you to fly a goon.
Have fun, relax, learn, enjoy. Nothing else you need to do.
-Math
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Maybe i'm wierd (well i'm kinda weird anyway) but i actually find it harder to get kills in the spit than the tiffie. Why? because in a speed demon all you have to do is get on the con's 6 and run them down. They make an evasive? simple, perform a yo-yo or some other vertical related manouver and come back on their 6. Eventually you'll kill them because they can't escape. I find it more challenging getting kills in the spitfire.
IMO flying the tiffie actually made me a worse pilot not a better one. The most used ACM was the "point the nose down and run". I actually forgot how to perform barrel rolls- i had to go offline and using film re-learn how to do them properly.
P.S. I love spits:)
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
I am curious, though. What are the "bad habits" to which you refer? I submit that if you fly a Spit and consistently improve your K/D ratio, you likely are not developing bad habits. (At least not "technical" bad habits like pulling until you burn all of your energy--who knows about other sorts of "bad habits" like leaving your wingmates stranded, refusing to engage without numerical superiority, etc.?) Indeed, you probably are developing at least good situational awareness and hopefully some ACM skill as well.
Hmmm. What I had originally meant was that it seemed likely to me that an obsession with k/d ratios, or with scores in general, could easily lead you to become a one-dimensional b&z pilot, and/or a ganger/vulcher/milkrunner....the sort of things you are naming above.
I know that it's a popular idea, but if you're suggesting that scores are no indication of ability, I reject that notion out of hand.
Heh heh. First I got dragged into the Spitdweeb Controversy, now into the Pointmonger Debate. (Sounds like two Ludlum novels.) And here I draw a line. AH stresses points in a way that I am not used to. Lots of people fly for their points, ranks, kills-per-hour ratios or whatever. I am not going to make fun of these endeavors. (Oldman ducks as tomato passes overhead.) Certainly I will never be near the top of any of these categories; even if I had the skill, I lack the patience to wait around until the numbers are right, or I have an energy advantage, or whatever. I will accept your assertion that scores are an indication of competence, simply because I have not bothered to check them out to see if the top-scoring pilots are the ones who seem the best to me in a dogfight. (Pie hits side of Oldman's face.)
- oldman
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Oldman:
Thanks for the posts and debate. I hesitate to "argue" with someone who is surely more skilled and more experienced than I, but you have been very sporting to indulge me. I think it's best to let this meandering thread die an overdue death!
- JNOV
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What or how is the difference between a member, junior, senior, i been in here for one year.
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Originally posted by SkyWorm
What or how is the difference between a member, junior, senior, i been in here for one year.
It has to do with the number of NEW posts you make, not replies to posts. I believe after posting 100 threads you get Senior status.
But it still won't get you the Senior discount at McDonalds.
fuzeman
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Mc Donalds have a seniors discount??? WOW, learn something every day..
As for flying spits, I use to spend a great deal of time flying no higher then 5k and then onto 10k. Thinking that you learn quicker always starting off at a disadvantage and getting bounced by higher and faster foes then the other way around.
Then again I don't consider myself anywhere near experienced enough to comment on ACM and AH. Just my 2 cents.
...-Gixer
The Horse Soldiers
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death I Shall Fear No Evil For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing. (sign over the entrance to the SR-71 operating location Kadena, Japan)."
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i'll tell u what master the Hurr Mk I and the Spitfire MK I then u can kick any planes a*
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Am I the only nut who prefers the P-40?? I've actually not done too badly in it... haven't earned a lot of kills, but don't get killed that easily either. :cool:
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I actually ran into a pretty good P-40 driver the other day in the MA, while I was in a 109-G10. We had two knife fights, he won one and I won one. The P-40E is a pretty good plane, only problem is it really doesn't have anything on the Spit9 or N1K2, so a decent pilot in one of those will win pretty easily.
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I used to fly the P-40b pretty often in WarBirds 2.01, where it could outturn and outroll the Spit V and later versions easily *eg*. Here it seems like wether the P-40b in WB was way too good or the Spit's were way too bad, which would take me by surprise since they were "dweebplanes" there too.;)
Anyways to everybody bold enough to take the wonderfull early ~hawk planes into battle against these late time monsters!
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Originally posted by paulieb
Am I the only nut who prefers the P-40?? I've actually not done too badly in it... haven't earned a lot of kills, but don't get killed that easily either. :cool:
When I can get on the Allied side, I very much enjoy the E version. It has its problems, but it's just such a pleasant plane to fly.
- oldman
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Believe it or not, I have had reasonable success in the P40B versus Spits and 51s. I've only put up a couple of kills with it, but even when I get taken down, it takes 5 minutes plus for the opposing pilot to do it. B+Z works really well with this plane if you start with an E advantage. Because of its roll rate, the best defensive tactic when under fire is to roll inverted and go for the deck. So far, the only Allied plane I've seen that can dive with it is the P47D, and to a lesser extent, the P40E. Another plus for me is that this plane can take a real pounding and still bring you home. Anyone thinking about flying this ill-tempered beast should definitely read up on what worked for the AVG... it really works in this sim as well!
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
Oldman:
...Nonetheless, that "advantage" is substantially--if not completely--outweighed by the Spits' inability to flee the scene and survive. Unlike a faster, pure energy fighter, a Spit generally has no option but to fight his way home.
Uh, The all of the spits retain Energy (and therefore speed) better than any plane I can think of off the top of my head.... unless you get way to wrapped up in your knife fight, you will still be able to run away from 70-80% of your enemies.
I have been flying AH ever since Beta 3 and sucked for a LONG LONG time. I usually avoided flying the spits because I prefer flying other planes. However, whenever I do up in a spit I almost always get 2-3 kills without much effort at all. It is an extremely good plane to learn by, very easy to fly, relatively fast, is very forgiving for less experienced pilots who yank on the stick rather than use trim and gentle controls, it has those 2 nasty Hispanos and takes a fair amount of abuse (though Sac4 seems to like to run into the ground while straffing my parachute in them fairly regularly.... I don't suggest this, the ground is not very forgiving) In the small amount of tutoring that I have done, I have suggested the Spit IX and the N1K2.
I don't hold anything against anyone who wants to fly them. Each plane in the game has it's advantages and disadvantages. Fly what you want!
Though, I do usually try to single out Spits, La7s and N1Ks out of the pack (not just because they are 'dweeb' planes, but because they can be generally more dangerous to face.
CHEERS!
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I'm trying to move up from the dweeb planes, but the non-dweebs are difficult to fly without a tail section, which I tend to loose fairly fairly quickly, but I'm working on it. That security blanket I've relied on with the N1K2 and LA-7 is always too tempting. So I guess I'll just be have to force myself to stay the coarse until I get better. I can fly anything available, but I die less in dweeb planes! Are Pony's and P-38's the next step to respect?
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ROFL..........nice 4 YEAR OLD BUMP!!!!
Jazz, hehe, fly what your heart desires, respect is given/earned by the way you fly, not by what you fly...........
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
ROFL..........nice 4 YEAR OLD BUMP!!!!
Jazz, hehe, fly what your heart desires, respect is given/earned by the way you fly, not by what you fly...........
Thanks TC,
That's pretty much what I was going to do anyway! :aok
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love the spit vIII,9,5. when flying them i seek other spits. seeems as tho ny mostest funnest, fights have been with other spits and that monster 109francine. it seems when i fly the spit there are more extended engagements involving the use of acms and grey noodley matter. depends on whose in the red plane tho.i like the pony as well but 2-3 fights in 30 mins. can get boring.
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Thanks COBA94,
I guess I've been chased and/or shot down by so many vulching spits I didn't even want to fly them. I tried one last night and you're right, they are fun flying machine (still died, however). I think I'll keep bouncing from plane to plane for a few more months, as I enjoy that. Thanks for the input.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
ROFL..........nice 4 YEAR OLD BUMP!!!!
Suckered into reading an old thread. I have to pay more attention to the dates.
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A couple of points, you can learn all the ACM you like and it won't save you half the time.
I'd say the 3 following things are essential to any new or vet pilot.
1. SA
2. Keep the guy below you
3. Alt= energy and energy= life
My 2 cents anyway
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Originally posted by thrila
Maybe i'm wierd (well i'm kinda weird anyway) but i actually find it harder to get kills in the spit than the tiffie. Why? because in a speed demon all you have to do is get on the con's 6 and run them down. They make an evasive? simple, perform a yo-yo or some other vertical related manouver and come back on their 6. Eventually you'll kill them because they can't escape. I find it more challenging getting kills in the spitfire.
IMO flying the tiffie actually made me a worse pilot not a better one. The most used ACM was the "point the nose down and run". I actually forgot how to perform barrel rolls- i had to go offline and using film re-learn how to do them properly.
P.S. I love spits:)
So very true..... It takes patience and good SA to avoid repeated attacks by a BnZ while slowly gaining alt where you can engage.
Get yourself in a situation with a couple 51 D's up high and a Hurricane down low..... requires some good ACM and SA to stay alive. Nothing dweebish there. Dont think the plane will get you out of that mess by itself... requires some skill.
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Originally posted by Hawco
A couple of points, you can learn all the ACM you like and it won't save you half the time.
I'd say the 3 following things are essential to any new or vet pilot.
1. SA
2. Keep the guy below you
3. Alt= energy and energy= life
My 2 cents anyway
Out of all the words that have been uttered in this thread, these are the wisest (IMO). Worth far more than 2 cents I think.
Actually, 2 & 3 are pretty much the same thing so I'd say there are two essentials: SA and Alt. Track IR goes a long way in helping SA, discipline and determination takes care of the Alt.
There's my 2 cents worth.
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New pilots: Go ahead and fly that Spitfire!
I was just playing on the Internet when I found this game about 4 months ago. I picked the spit for one reason and one reason only. When I was flipping threw the different planes to use, I picked the spit because it had a thin canopy and visually I could see the screen better. I picked the spit16 because I just figured it was a later model and therefor a better model. Logic told me to pick one plane and stick to it till I learned to fly. After two months I tried a 38 cause murdur and all those guys fly 38's but found out it doesn't roll very well and I use roll to help my SA (I fly upside down a lot). I went back to the spit. About two months ago I got shot down by shawk 5 times in a row and he was in a spit16. When I get better I will try something else, maybe, but if it doesn't fly or if it doesn't kill as good as a spit16, I will stay with the spit16. Anybody got a problem with this? :) :D Also, If anybody can suggest a plane similar to a spit16 I would like to try that sometime soon. I just don't want to get something that is hard to fly because I haven't really learned to fly the Spit yet. I have spend most of my time so far trying to build my PC so I can get better game play (video card and all that jazz) and not so much time actually playing the game so far. :) :aok :) :D :)
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good info here
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Fly whatever damn plane you want.
Makes a lot of sense to me. It is your $15.00 and like the old song says, you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself.
Some days I want to knifefight, so I fly a knifefighter. Some days I am to drunk to go spinning around in circles, so to keep the cockpit clean and still have fun I play it safe, diving in at 400 mph or more to take a shot and run away like the coward that I am.
Other days I may be feeling goofy and I might want to utilize B and Z tacticts in a Hurricane, or try dogfighting with a P-51 loaded with very little fuel.
But none of the above really matters to anyone but me. I'm just glad that there is a sim for these wonderful, grand old planes that is always striving to get better. So have fun and like Mathman said, fly whatever damn plane you want.
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I choose the plane based on whatever I want to accomplish. I was surprised to see I had more kills in a 110 this tour than anything except the hellcat. One tour my favorite plane was a 190 A-8. In fightertown, I prefer the Spit 8, hurri2C or even an La7. A squadie has actually landed kills in a 38G in fightertown (I always get my big fat butt shot off in those :cry .) There are a ton of planes and each has its own quirks. You have to fly them to learn how to beat them. Once you learn a plane's strengths, you can predict what a pilot SHOULD do in it, assuming he will fly to its strength, and start to counter it almost before he does it. It's your $$$. Fly what and how you want.
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Very good thread lots of good opinions....
In my meager opinion being very new to all this is:
1. Fly with what you are comfortable flying in
2. Fly what will accomplish the task at hand
I presonally like to fly spits for base defense purposes as I find im getting BnZ'd and vulched immediately upon take-off and need the low alt low speed manuerablilty of the spit.
I like to use La-7 when attacking opposing bases as it has the ability to carry ordinance to the target to assist in taking down opposing VH, and with enough help FH.
I use the F6F, F4U and Seafire for carriers ops (mission dependant).
To me it doesn't matter what plane you fly as long as the plane is a good tool for the task at hand.
After all we are all here to have fun :aok
Fly what makes you happy and enjoy the game!
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I should have read what I wrote before posting I was too tired.
Obviously the La carrys little ord my bad, The typhoon was what I meant to put in but I do use both when attacking bases..
Just to correct myself before someone else does
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Im a Spitdweeb down to the ground. I dont like the Spit 16, but Im a big fan of the Spit 1! Yes I know most people here are going to shout at me now, but its a really good plane if you get the hang of it. Ive had several good dogfights in the TA wit it, probarbly both i would have won! The first was up against the Spit 16 and the second was Ledpig in his 38. I personally am quite proud of the fact that a Spit 1 could match a 38! So can we not leave off the poor Spitfires, for just a wee bit? PLEASE?