Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Montezuma on September 11, 2002, 03:45:16 AM
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Some people shut off their engine in close scissors fights to force an overshoot. I have read about pilots during the war chopping throttle, using flaps, or even lowering their gear to slow down in these situations - but never shutting off the engine.
Perhaps after stopping and restarting your engine several times, AH could introduce a random chance of engine failure.
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The only time I saw this I was in a "pull the throttle back and the plane stops like you just popped a chute" spit V. the opponent was in some kinda energy holding plane and I just had to laugh. Watching his little prop stop and start while he slowly killed himself.
I guess you will try anything at that point. Seriously wouldnt be a bad thing to have though. Would be kinda funny if you had to wait 5 secs before you could try again. I can see it now, squad night, sittin on the carrier deck, and the Golly-geen f6f wont spin over!
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Have you ever bumped the magneto switch to "off" with your knee while flying? Engine quits RIGHT NOW.
and starts RIGHT NOW when you flip it back to "both".
I have also had a left mag failure inflight. Didn't know it until we decided to check mag drop at full throttle. :) Both (hmmmmmm) Right (hmmmmmm) Left (total silence) :eek:
Back to both and (hmmmmm) Did this a few time to make sure it wasn't the mag switch itself, trying the one in the front seat and the rear seat.
So... tell me why it should have refused to start again?
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Originally posted by Toad
Have you ever bumped the magneto switch to "off" with your knee while flying? Engine quits RIGHT NOW.
and starts RIGHT NOW when you flip it back to "both".
I have also had a left mag failure inflight. Didn't know it until we decided to check mag drop at full throttle. :) Both (hmmmmmm) Right (hmmmmmm) Left (total silence) :eek:
Back to both and (hmmmmm) Did this a few time to make sure it wasn't the mag switch itself, trying the one in the front seat and the rear seat.
So... tell me why it should have refused to start again?
It is amazing how LOUD that QUIET can get.
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..
What of engines that started with a hand crank, or engines that took more than one push of the button to start?
I'm no way near being an engineer or an actual pilot, so, quite frankly, I don't understand why there were so many steps a pilot had to go through before starting an engine, but when you play "B-17 Flying Fortress: the Mighty 8th" you notice they portrayed every detail of engine management in the game and really, it doesn't seem all that easy.
I had to ready the manual every time I upped a B-17 because I couldn't memorize all those switches and buttons, and magneto blah blah blahs .. and the start sequence of the fighters didn't seem all that simple either. I remember the Mustang start-up sequence as being relatively simple.. but it took some effort in the LW fighters.
Wouldn't those planes have at least some sort of trouble when the pilot had to turn it on again? If the engine was started once, can some of those steps be just neglected, so a single push of the magneto button would restart the engine immediately?
Toad speaks of modern prop-plane engines going ON/OFF with one touch of the button. Was this also the case with WWII fighters??
Hope someone would clarify things for me :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm no way near being an engineer or an actual pilot, so, quite frankly, I don't understand why there were so many steps a pilot had to go through before starting an engine, but when you play "B-17 Flying Fortress: the Mighty 8th" you notice they portrayed every detail of engine management in the game and really, it doesn't seem all that easy.
I had to ready the manual every time I upped a B-17 because I couldn't memorize all those switches and buttons, and magneto blah blah blahs .. and the start sequence of the fighters didn't seem all that simple either. I remember the Mustang start-up sequence as being relatively simple.. but it took some effort in the LW fighters.
Master Switch ON
Mag ON
fuel booster pumps on
fuel mixture handle down 2 notches
flip to the co-pilots aux view
flip the engine starter switch up
wait until you can hear the engine powers up
click and hold the switch to the right of the starter until the engine fully starts
repeat each time for the other 3 engines;)
I didn't find the 190 that hard to start
Mags on
Fuel cock on
press the starter switch and wait
I also have a funny story about once when i tried to start the engine on a 262
Managed to start both engines, but it wouldn't go nowhere
Took me a while to figure out i forgot to turn the fuel cock on
So i turned it on, and the 262 took off.......................... .........into the side of another 262, lol
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I have never stopped an engine. Certainly not in my Corsair.
These R-2800's dont exactly turn over like your Mom's Toyota Celica. And unless I wanna unstrap myself, crawl along the cowling, screw open the ignition hatch, pull out the expended cartridge,insert another starter cartridge into the ignition breech, screw down the ignition hatch, slide back along the cowling and strap myself back into position, re-prime the engine, and HOPE it turns over...in , what...2, 3, even five seconds???
No thanks, I'll just leave that Big Mother turning! And so it should be modeled :)
IMO, any nut that resorts to killing an undamaged engine intentionally during combat needs to be killed in the first place!
Gainsie
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If the engine is already spinning(prop windmilling) you don't need to worry about starters do you?
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Originally posted by Innominate
If the engine is already spinning(prop windmilling) you don't need to worry about starters do you?
Just WORK with me, will ya? :)
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Innominate, i was gona post that , you beat me to it.
when you turn off the eng , the eng don't stop turning over unless you feather the prop ( can only do that on multi eng A/C to reduce drag, single eng A/C can't feather prop )
so you do not need a starter for mid air restarts.
and what about spit mk1 and hurri mk1 that stop under neg g's.
i doubt there would be any damage in a mid air restart, exhaust? what exhuast, a little stub pipe. it takes more than a backfire to bust something.
this whole thread ( threads) is because some body lost a fight because he thinks air craft can't turn off the eng and restart it in the air, when i get beat it's because the other pilot was better or got lucky, live with it.
44MAG
PS...Innominate? hey didn't you shoot me down 2 nights ago? you weren't gameing the game were you :D
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guys this has been around forever.
I dont like but this how it works
Its not used to "cause" an overshoot.
Folks use it to decelerate to keep from overshooting.
Typically in my experience a hi con goes to bounce. Normally I would start a slow turn and take tighter tempting him to follow.
Most folks pull trying to follow as I turn tighter they cant follow and will shoot by. Timed right I can roll back and hit as they blow by.
The eng chop trick involves the guy cutting his eng and decelerating and pullin gs. When he bleeds enough e he turns eng back on and accelerates through the turn.
Basically its like breaking before you get into the turn then accelerating through.
Probrably 90% of the time in the main you will never notice or it will never happen.
Sometimes they will toggle the eng on/off rapidly. All it does is slow them enough to turn tighter.
When I first saw this a long time ago it was g10s, 190s, jugs and f4us. Every once in a while the rare pony.
Planes that can already turn dont need to do this.
The only reason its a hot issue now is because of a thread in the KOTH forum.
Someone asked why there is a rule against shutting off your eng. This rule the way I took was to stop folks from uppin with lo fuel and nursing it by turning their eng off to out last the rest of the guys.
The original poster said he only cut eng in a fight.
Well a few of us offered our opinions. I feel that the instant button eng toggle is a gameplay concession in ah. That when folks are in a fight that turning eng on/off was an exploitation of a gameplay concesion.
From there we end up here with a crusade against "gamyness".
There are far more things that effect gameplay then some one turning their eng on/off.
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Exactly! If the prop is windmilling the engine won't require the whole complicated starting sequence it needs on the ground it'll start inmidietly. THe cylinders are attached to the crankshaft and while the combustion process is halted the engine still has movement only a slight spark would make the whole combustion process start inmedietly only way I could think the engine might get damaged is if the engine is restarted at full throttle,that might indeed make the engine go kaput,but otherwise there's no reason while the prop is windmilling for a piston engine aircraft not to start other than faulty magnetos, spark plugs or of course battle engine damage.
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I have had an inflight engine quit running in RL. It was on purpose as I needed to make a landing without the engine running. I didn't want the engine making power if the gear collapsed and I had an unsafe gear indicator. Guess what. the prop stayed turning until AFTER I turned off the runway. The prop will tend to stay turning if the plane is flying and not just falling. That's just the way it is. You don't need the starter. In fact you will have to take an unusual action to get the prop to stop without a major crunch in the engine. Think slowing to stall speed.
More than one pilot in WW2 forgot to switch tanks and had the big quiet happen. The engine fired right up after switching to a tank that had more than just air in it. Happens in general aviation too.
As to the technology for the 30's and 40's being less capable than now. Here's a real news flash. We are STILL flying the same technology in engines. It's called magnetos and aircooled engines with "generous" tollerances. Why the slop? The engines are made of multiple types of metal.
Grey cast iron- piston rings some are chromed in a non chrome cylinder
aluminum- engine cases cylinder heads and various accessories pistons, piston pin caps
steel - cylinder bores some are chromed, some are nitrided, some are iron, some are plain steel. This also includes other parts like the cams, crankshafts, valve tappets, lifters, valves, gears,and so on.
Now the big thing here is that these items do not expand or contract in a uniform manner. Some will react faster and farther than others so you must design some room for this to happen without siezing the engine.
Due to the FAA and liability concerns, the fastest evolving part of aviation is in the military and experimental aircraft arenas. For most of the rest of aviation the 30's and 40's are not far away. They are still here. I confirmed that by looking up a book on engine maintenance printed in 1939. The data in there is pretty much the same as my brand new 2000 textbook. There have been some modifications sure but it has not amounted to a substantive change.
Another thing to consisder is that ready aircraft had to keep engines somewhat warm but not running all the time. That meant starting and running periodically until the ready alert status was passed off to another plane / pilot or ended period.
Don't sweat the "malfunction" situation. People come to AH to fly and fight (or drive and fight) not to put up with "random failures". If the game didn't work for you, would you want to pay to sit on the ground or to play the game?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Don't sweat the "malfunction" situation. People come to AH to fly and fight (or drive and fight) not to put up with "random failures". If the game didn't work for you, would you want to pay to sit on the ground or to play the game?
Game the game playin with the E key and take yer chances on it restarting. Avoid the potential problem by not thumbin the E key after ya get off the ground. Plain and simple.
Oh, and Mav, you asked on another thread if people really do this... go as Wldthing. He uses it every time he engages.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
Game the game playin with the E key and take yer chances on it restarting. Avoid the potential problem by not thumbin the E key after ya get off the ground. Plain and simple.
If engine reliability is going to be taken into account, the the N1k2's engine needs to randomly die. And the me262 engines need to catch on fire randomly when being started. Plus every other plane that had any engine issues.
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sure, why not?
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Very true Maverick except that if you ran out of fuel in one tank then there would be a chance that the engine would not start at all due to vapor lock,I forgot the exact name for when this happens to Fuel Injected systems,but it's pretty similar,the fuel line gets clogged by gas vapor or air and one of 2 things might happen the air passes through the fuel lines to the combustion chamber and the fuel resumes flowing once it's cleared, or the engine just doesn't restart due to the vapor or air creating a void in the fuel lines that does not let any fuel through.
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"If engine reliability is going to be taken into account, the the N1k2's engine needs to randomly die. And the me262 engines need to catch on fire randomly when being started. "
Why? It's not the same issue. Serice reliability for planes like the N1K2 is NOT the same thing as damage caused to an engine by a pilot needlessly abusing it.
It's much more like airframe failures in AH....poor construction isn't modeled in AH (N1K2's landing gear doesn't randomly break), but if you over-abuse your plane (pull too many G's or such) you CAN make it fail.
Engines should be the same way.....abuse it and risk losing it.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Glasses
Very true Maverick except that if you ran out of fuel in one tank then there would be a chance that the engine would not start at all due to vapor lock,I forgot the exact name for when this happens to Fuel Injected systems,but it's pretty similar,the fuel line gets clogged by gas vapor or air and one of 2 things might happen the air passes through the fuel lines to the combustion chamber and the fuel resumes flowing once it's cleared, or the engine just doesn't restart due to the vapor or air creating a void in the fuel lines that does not let any fuel through.
Glasses, that is why fuel boost pumps were installed. Even if you had a vapor lock there was a considerable amount of flow in the line and the fuel would get there. Besides there was more than one fuel line to the selector. The reason selectors were used is to allow the engine to be fed from any tank and in some cases from all of them (internal tanks). Don't forget you will have an instant fuel line break as soon as you drop your drop tanks.
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Originally posted by Innominate
If engine reliability is going to be taken into account, the the N1k2's engine needs to randomly die. And the me262 engines need to catch on fire randomly when being started. Plus every other plane that had any engine issues.
No, I'm not talking about modeling random failures.
I'm talking about player induced failures. You start your engine, you get into a fight. Yer about to get yer bellybutton handed to you so you start poppin the button you've programed to start the engine. Every time you kill the engine in your scissors fight you run the risk of damaging the engine. The more times you kill it the more likely it will not restart and you end up dead anyway.
Big difference between random and player induced here.
Now about runnin fuel tanks out... I'd have to go try it again, but it seems like every time the engine on my pony has died because I burned out the aux tank before the external tanks, the engine restarted as soon as I switched to a tank with fuel in it.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
Now about runnin fuel tanks out... I'd have to go try it again, but it seems like every time the engine on my pony has died because I burned out the aux tank before the external tanks, the engine restarted as soon as I switched to a tank with fuel in it.
Pretty much the way it is in RL too. Engine's already turning, has spark from the mags, add fuel and there's noise.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
No, I'm not talking about modeling random failures.
I'm talking about player induced failures. You start your engine, you get into a fight. Yer about to get yer bellybutton handed to you so you start poppin the button you've programed to start the engine. Every time you kill the engine in your scissors fight you run the risk of damaging the engine. The more times you kill it the more likely it will not restart and you end up dead anyway.
Big difference between random and player induced here.
Not really.
Shutting down and restarting an engine is little different from it's working in the first place. If it's going to randomly die when you restart it, why shouldn't the rest be taken into account?
The whole engine issue is stupid anyways. It's a question of engine reliability, which is something that won't be modeled.
Lets also have the 262 flame out if you advance the throttle too quickly.
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Do WWII planes have sparkplugs or do they work like diesel engines and rely on compresion and heat?
(I don't know $@#! about engines)
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
Do WWII planes have sparkplugs or do they work like diesel engines and rely on compresion and heat?
(I don't know $@#! about engines)
They had sparkplugs for the most part. The Germans did have some diesels but they were not good performers ike the gassers were.
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It's a "gamey" tactic no doubt. To end it they could simply make it 30 seconds to REstart an engine. That way if you accidently hit e while tooling along or wanted to shut down to conserve fuel it wouldn't matter. Doesn't matter to me either way. I griped about it, even to Skuzzy. He said it was "fairplay". So I have simply started using it and I must say, it works well. :D
If you can't beat'm, join'm!
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Maverick,
Wow! I had no idea. A couple minutes of web searching and I found this (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hzoe/ju_eng.htm).
BNM,
A few people have tested this now and found that there is no performance difference between toggling the engine and simply cutting throttle all the way back. So while the ability to have a 100% reliable instant restart might be an open question the tactic itself is no better or worse than chopping throttle. I doubt that anyone is going to argue that chopping throttle is "gamey."