Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MWHUN on September 11, 2002, 09:15:03 AM
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Well I was retired after AW went off-line until I was dragged out of retirement by my squadies… I logged onto AH a few months ago and unfortunately/fortunately got hooked. Over the years I pretty much have seen every type of “move” out there—so I thought—as I ran up across some of the better sticks in AH I saw a move that I had never encountered before. It was a crazy wobble move where they were just “flopping” around in front of me. :eek:
I thought… “hmmm very interesting” so every time they did it I filmed it and then went off line to see if I could simulate the move. I have a “floppy” move now in my arsenal—I’m not saying it’s the best one out there but it’s getting better. BUT now I’m getting confused by some of the things I’m hearing on CH1 and on these boards… it appears some people think the move is dweebish, unfair, etc… Remember… I learned it from some of the AH aces that have been acknowledged on these boards (for better or worse) :D
But honestly it was the better sticks that introduced me to this move. So my question--is this a valid “combat move” or a form of exploitation of the AH flight model?
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Flopping around isn't necessarily stick stirring.
Stick stirring is making a whole bunch of tiny little stick moves very quickly, with the end result being lag that causes your plane to warp from where they think you are to where you are. If that is what is happening, then yeah, you should probably knock it off, but if you are just jinking around to avoid getting killed, anyone who tells you there are rules against it is an idiot.
You will notice a lot of people trying to tell you how you can and cannot fly - don't listen to 'em.
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Could pilots in ww2 make their planes do the warpy fish-floppy manouver? AFAIK know they couldn't. It's just gaming the game, no skill involved at all- not a legit tactic IMO. Usually catch a 190 doing this every so often.
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Could pilots in ww2 make their planes do the warpy fish-floppy manouver? AFAIK know they couldn't. It's just gaming the game, no skill involved at all- not a legit tactic IMO. Usually catch a 190 doing this every so often.
Definatly agree, totally NOT legit, just gaming the game and show everybody how much you really suck since it's the only way you can survive (note, this does not go out to you MWHUN but to everybody who does it).
190's? Hell, I see more LA7's and Tiffies and spits do it then I see 190's. All planes do it, or rather, some pilots who fly certain planes. Stop it now before you get hooked.
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When I was at the Con I was accused of the "worst stick stirring" one pilot had ever seen. Ironically one of my squaddies was sitting next to me and watching the whole thing. I wasn't stick stirring at all, merely barrell rolling and jinxing..we had a laugh about it and I thanked the accuser for the compliment.
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often the internet can not keep up with the speed of a rolling 190. It can appear to do the 'floppy fish' maneuver, but this isn't the same as the one you described... I don't think.
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Originally posted by Kratzer
Flopping around isn't necessarily stick stirring.
Stick stirring is making a whole bunch of tiny little stick moves very quickly, with the end result being lag that causes your plane to warp from where they think you are to where you are. If that
Okay I may be using incompatible word here to describe it—I thought a wobble was the same thing as what I heard referred to as stick stirring… my wobble is accomplished more by rudder control than by stick control…
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In many cases "stick stirring" is a scapegoat used by people who don't know how they just got shot down.
I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I would wager that anyone who often uses a barrell roll to force an overshoot has probably been accused of stick stirring.
-Sik
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Interesting that only two people seem to have actually read the original post.
The rest of you tards seem to just want an opportunity to piss and moan.
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Stalling/spinning can also produce the same thing... it's not always stick stirring or moving the controls around too fast.
-SW
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Originally posted by MWHUN
Well I was retired after AW went off-line until I was dragged out of retirement by my squadies… I logged onto AH a few months ago and unfortunately/fortunately got hooked. Over the years I pretty much have seen every type of “move” out there—so I thought—as I ran up across some of the better sticks in AH I saw a move that I had never encountered before. It was a crazy wobble move where they were just “flopping” around in front of me.
$10 says it was ManeTMP who was doing this to you. :) He's king of flopping around in my book.
FWIW, this is not a very good move unless you're trying to cause enough of a delay that nearby friendlies clear the badguy off of your six. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before you buy it. The secret to countering it? Just hit the brakes and watch him flop right in front of your guns. They never really expect that.
Is it a valid combat move? I don't see why not, but it's also pretty dumb unless friendlies are around. It's a massive E bleeder that's purely defensive with little possibility of turning the tables on smart opponents. I prefer moves that are more likely to translate into guns solutions.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I always thought it was just how the game displayed a stall. If a plane is flopping around deliberately, then chances are its losing its E pretty quickly.
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The floppy fish CAN be caused by over use of the rudder as much as stirring the stick, and is the same thing.
And no it is NOT a legitamate tactic. It is quite simply a situation of taking advantage of the nature of lag/the internet, and the smoothing code in the game. Not to mention the near instantaneous control reversals that are possible with no stick forces and digital joysticks. In real life this was simply not possible.
Todd, your counter is only good if your in a turnfighter with a nice low speed stall. If your flying a BnZ plane the floppy fish is a very viable defense against you, as it will cause the attacker to repeatedly miss. And quite often even give the defender a chance at a reversal if the attacker gets impatient and overshoots at a slow speed.
If a person uses that kind of manuever, and gets called a "dweeb".... they shouldn't be upset, because thats what they are !
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stick stirring, thats a good one. If people think I'm gonna fly straight and level just cuz they are on my 6, their nuts. I'm gonna kick the rudder, roll, dive, climb, etc etc etc, in as little space as i can.
The best compliment I ever got was..
"I'm out of ammo 205
And he was back there LONG time throwing lead
Course I was out of fuel at that point or near it, so I couldn't go after him :D People like to blame their crappy gunnery skills on stick stirring. I know I do :)
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Originally posted by Kratzer
Interesting that only two people seem to have actually read the original post.
The rest of you tards seem to just want an opportunity to piss and moan.
I hope I'm one of the two...because I read the thread...I just don't think there IS such a thing as stick stirring...let alone whether it is legit or not.
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Whatever else can be said about the 1.03 flight model, stick stirring was nonexistent. I guess it was added in 1.04 for the sake of realism.
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First time I saw this it was Citabria doing it.
I learned it and yes it works well....
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Popeye, that's called selective memory in the psychiatric world.
Stick stirring was indeed possible in 1.03 and before, and it happened... there was just far fewer people back there who didn't understand ACM... so they didn't have to resort to it.
-SW
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Originally posted by MWHUN
Okay I may be using incompatible word here to describe it—I thought a wobble was the same thing as what I heard referred to as stick stirring… my wobble is accomplished more by rudder control than by stick control…
Quite a bit of that is jamming your rudder to the stops in uncoodinated flight to bleed E in a hurry. It can be used to prevent an overshoot or encourage one, depending on where you are, and was not at all uncommon, even in WWII, to bleed speed for landings. The Wobble you refer to, I think, involves slamming your rudder to the stops alternatly so you don't significantly change your flight path.
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I've been accused of this every now and then - I have actually never seen it myself... what i HAVE seen is the jinx - i.e. throwing peoples aim off, sideslipping and barrelrolls.
To accuse someone of stick stirring because they spent all ammo in their spit ix trying to hit a rolling & jinxing fw190 imo shows a lack of ACM knowledge.
I'm frankly not sure if such a thing really exists.
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hehe Levi i haven't flowen the tiffie much in a year or so
kind weend off that 'floppy' move
(you have to get a 'flop' going to stall a wing in the tiffie.. then it will roll) heh heh use your torque and the 'flop' snap-roll you'll live in the tiffie (cause it acclerates like nobodys bussniess)
but i've lost my touch for it & I wouldn't call it 'stiring'/'floping' ... just trying to get around horrible rollrate of tiffie.
guess you gave up on the tiffie too (damn squid) :D
maybe not gave up .. i'd say outgrew :)
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Beg to differ, SW. I distinctly remember appreciating the lack of stick stirring, and thinking that it was some compensation for the other "aspects" of the flight model. It was so easy to burn E in 1.03 that any flip flopping would quickly leave the fish wallowing in shallow water, if not augered in.
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You can snap roll the 190... it will appear to be a 'floppy fish' to the guy behind u....
It will stall a wing and flip over far faster than the net can keep up
SKurj
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Originally posted by MWHUN
Well I was retired after AW went off-line until I was dragged out of retirement by my squadies… I logged onto AH a few months ago and unfortunately/fortunately got hooked. Over the years I pretty much have seen every type of “move” out there—so I thought—as I ran up across some of the better sticks in AH I saw a move that I had never encountered before. It was a crazy wobble move where they were just “flopping” around in front of me. :eek:
MWHun, I see a move occasionally where they deliberately cause the plane to be out of control in all 3 planes of motion. It's not limited to 190s - I've seen it in all planes. It has a very simple counter: Since they are bleeding E like there's no tomorrow, reduce your throttle and follow along. They have to enter normal flight (or crash.) Kill them when they stop the nonsense - they are slow and right in front of you.
curly
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Originally posted by Sikboy
In many cases "stick stirring" is a scapegoat used by people who don't know how they just got shot down.
I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I would wager that anyone who often uses a barrell roll to force an overshoot has probably been accused of stick stirring.
-Sik
C'mon, be a man, Sikboy! You really mean that cheater Leviathn, and we all know that!
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It is kind of hard to say because we don't have any visual reference to what we are talking about.
I've seen wild jinking, impressive figure-8 rolling, rolls with wild rudder inputs, short/wide radius high-speed barrel rolls, rolls with high negative G input, and last but not the least, stick-stirring.
Usually all of the above look simular, especially when the relative connection between you and your attacker isn't all that good. The enemy plane slows down in a very quick rate, with its three flight axis(yaw, pitch, roll) not matching its flight path - which is very confusing and discomforting to watch in the attacker's position. The enemy plane is closing rapidly, but you can't get a bearing on the deflection angle so you get wildly confused where to aim at... and then, you overshoot the enemy and tend to think "something's not right".
This is especially true when rolls come with negative G inputs.. I've been accused of stick stirring in the Bf109G(a plane with excellent -G response, but you can't say it has a good roll rate). In truth, what I did was a combination of few maneuvers with absolutely calm stick input: skidding with high rudder input, outside half-barrel roll, reverse the direction of the out-side barrel roll, and then semi-stall out and drop down into a split-S. To the guy attacking I have a good guess how it might have looked like.. the 109 yaw axis changes, not matching the flight path... and then it enters into a barrel roll with its belly outside(very weird to look at), then the direction changes, and suddenly it moves under the nose into a split-S. The guy was probably trying hard to find an aiming point, failed, and watched helplessly as I disappeared under his nose in a split-S.
Therefore, in most cases, I don't think we can say which is stick-stirring and which is not.
Though stick-stirring differs a bit when you examine it closely(the three axis doesn't match the flight path, but the position of the wing tips change in a warping manner... it would roll crazy 90~180 degrees with warp... its different from just "very fast rolls" you would see on a 190), most cases we encounter would be just stick-stirring(yes) in a "legitimate" range. I see a lot of this in newbie pilots I target doing this, moving controls wildly, but not in the manner which would produce micro warps that move the wingtips all over the place.
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How can you say stick stirring is cheating? Whatever you have to do in the MA to survive is legit. It's like 1 time I was fighting this guy and he said only fight with using 75% throttle...im like no sorry! and he said I cheated. There was this other guy that accused me of cheating because my F6F outmanuevered him. I use stick stirring 1nce in a blue moon. I don't like to use it because you lose a tremendous amount of speed...and in my case...me flying the F6F doesn't help either. I think any manuever is legit in AH...to survive in the MA is a task in itself, now if people tell you that you can't do a manuever than thats cheap in itself.
ALL!
~Wildkat/BlueiceJ~
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Someone who is doing the floppy donkey thing is just leaving themselves even more vulnerable in my book
I just wait and throttle back and wait for em to roll across the gunsight
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No it's not legit, it's taking advantages of the flaws of programming and internet connectivity.
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Warp inducing measures are for smegmavores .
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Originally posted by moose
Someone who is doing the floppy donkey thing is just leaving themselves even more vulnerable in my book
I just wait and throttle back and wait for em to roll across the gunsight
Last night I saw this for the first time....and I agree Moose. A guy was flopping all about in front of me...but I was in a zero. I just waited until he came into my sights...nice and slow...and boom..he dead.
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Flew a stang a couple weeks ago for the first time in a long time. Was engaged with someone (can't remember who) and slightly started to (at a loss for a better explanation) panic. I wound up wing stalling the beast, and as I flopped and flipped back and forth I tried to regain control.
I eventually died, and saluted the person who shot me down. I pathetically tried to apologize for the flop and went about my business of NOT flying stangs the rest of that night.
Needless to say, I was embarressed about performing that manuever.
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Originally posted by moose
Someone who is doing the floppy donkey thing is just leaving themselves even more vulnerable in my book
I just wait and throttle back and wait for em to roll across the gunsight
That’s pretty much what I do, Moose. I pull off the power, side-slip as necessary and wait for his controls to lock up when he gets the “don’t move the controls so fast” message. Then… Whamo.
As to jinking and rolling, be my guest. Anything he does to burn down E suits me just fine. Especially since I spend most of my time in Wildcats.
My regards,
Widewing