Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: popeye on September 11, 2002, 01:20:08 PM
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In the days following the September 11th terrorist attack, it seemed that Americans were anxious to "do something" for their country. Many donated blood, money, labor, and time, without being asked. I think there was an opportunity for the President to ask Americans for personal sacrifice that might have been politically unpopular at any other time. Instead, he asked people only to return to "business as usual", to travel, and to go shopping.
My own suggestion would have been to launch an "Apollo Program" to reduce America's energy consumption by 25% in ten years, with research and development funded by an increase in the federal gasoline tax. (Tax credits for the purchase of energy efficient appliances and vehicles, and below-average electricity and heating fuel use, could offset the increased gasoline taxes.) The benefits would have been many, but decreased reliance on foreign oil and its risky political alliances, would directly connect to the war on terrorism. (Of course, this could probably never happen with Big Oil in charge in the White House.)
Was an opportunity missed? What might have been accomplished by harnessing the spirit of patriotism and desire for National service that followed the attacks? Or, did we really just want to get back to shopping and business as usual?
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Good Point...But your right GeeDub and all his chronies would rather destroy our home if it made them all richer...
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Admit it Popeye, you're Al Gore aren't you? :)
-Sik
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This opportunity was missed by quite a few presidents before GB.
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Biggest opportunity missed was to proceed with exploration of that 2% wilderness area in the Great North that is predicted to have as much as as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait combined...but the left liberals and Demoncrats shot that down like a dove carrying an olive branch....
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Mighty1, do you think there have been other recent events that engendered the same degree of patriotic self sacrifice as that of September 11th?
Rip, so put you down for "business as usual"? ;)
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Did you miss the GW Bush hydrogen research bill he signed or are you party-affiliated blind? Edit: Forgot my wink! ;)
http://www.e85fuel.com/news/successful_farming.htm
http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2001/02/12/daily81.html
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US govt is and has been funding fuel cell R & D, NASA has been using fuel cells in their space ships for years
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Biggest opportunity missed was to proceed with exploration of that 2% wilderness area in the Great North that is predicted to have as much as as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait combined...but the left liberals and Demoncrats shot that down like a dove carrying an olive branch....
Keep your blood-stained mitts off my wildlife refuge you filthy stinkin' industrialist!
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Originally posted by gofaster
Keep your blood-stained mitts off my wildlife refuge you filthy stinkin' industrialist!
When are you going to give your yard back to the gators?
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Hydrogen fuel cells are of little use to solve our problems.
They'll do a lot to reduce our oil dependence, but electricity is still needed to produce the hydrogen.
The best long-term solution I've heard of is large orbital solar arrays. Definitly not cheap, and unavailable for the near future, they could provide nearly limitless power.
Too bad NASA's already having severe funding problems.
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Think of how many starving people could be fed by all those caribou.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Think of how many starving people could be fed by all those caribou.
Can they be exchanged for comps at the Luxor, Las Vegas?
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Perhaps we could get it on the buffet, with a club seal sandwich on the side.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Think of how many starving people could be fed by all those caribou.
How DARE you suggest the killing of innocent and beautiful wild creatures! You should be shot.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Can they be exchanged for comps at the Luxor, Las Vegas?
Yes, along with "Chicken Little Sky is Falling" Omelete during brunch.
And lets think about this......let others use up their oil reserves before we tap ours......hmmmmm.
Cobra
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Milo.. could you.. would you.. just one more time?
:D
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Originally posted by Fatty
Think of how many starving people could be fed by all those caribou.
Oh GREAT! So NOW we're trading Animals for Oil!! Why in the HELL don't we start killing the friggin Whales and burning THEM in our cars??? All third world people were cannibals within the last 400 years, and that's a historical fact. Let the Hebrews, Moslems, Hindus and Buddhists eat each other. Fatty you amazinhunk, I've never liked you anyway but when you start calling for motor vehicles that run on whale blubber then you've gone too far. You will hear from the legal department of PETA for this, you insensite clod. Get your priorities straight.
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Mixed with a dash of cannibalism, you could pick up a hitchhiker, trim the fat and eat on the road.
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Cripes. I can't keep up the scarcasm. The problem with the caribou is that they are an shared international resource. Animals yes, source of protien for our indiginous peoples? Definately.
Imagine that those supposed oil fields in Alaska were partially in Canadian land, as they may be. Now also suppose that we (Canadians) create the "Turbo Hyper Oil Pump" (tm). Say we stuck this pump in to the portion of the oil field that is in Canadian territory and sucked up all the oil. I don't imagine the US would be to pleased with this.
Same thing with the caribou herd. This herd spends mosts its time in Canada but breeds in the Alaskan territory where this oil MIGHT exist. You go drilling, our (as in shared) caribou herd gets all diddlyed up.
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Best keep an eye on yer kariboo then, might wanna leash yer dawgs too.
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There's only 194 left (I counted them).
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Doesnt smell reliable.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Now also suppose that we (Canadians) create the "Turbo Hyper Oil Pump" (tm).
Would that "Turbo Hyper Oil Pump" be manufactured by BMW? I've heard about this on another bbs, but I didn't really believe it.
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Oh oh, disapearing animals, whats that building over there?
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Well, guess there was no opportunity missed. At least it made some great material for TV shows, and flag sales went through the roof.
We now return you to "business as usual". :D
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Cripes. I can't keep up the scarcasm. The problem with the caribou is that they are an shared international resource. Animals yes, source of protien for our indiginous peoples? Definately.
Imagine that those supposed oil fields in Alaska were partially in Canadian land, as they may be. Now also suppose that we (Canadians) create the "Turbo Hyper Oil Pump" (tm). Say we stuck this pump in to the portion of the oil field that is in Canadian territory and sucked up all the oil. I don't imagine the US would be to pleased with this.
Same thing with the caribou herd. This herd spends mosts its time in Canada but breeds in the Alaskan territory where this oil MIGHT exist. You go drilling, our (as in shared) caribou herd gets all diddlyed up.
Wrong. The caribou population INCREASED after we laid the Alaskan pipeline, they have patrols that have to reduce the herds yearly now. Go figure.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
When are you going to give your yard back to the gators?
Gators won't have it - no water. But the snakes and small lizards took to it just fine.
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Biggest opportunity missed was to proceed with exploration of that 2% wilderness area in the Great North that is predicted to have as much as as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait combined...but the left liberals and Demoncrats shot that down like a dove carrying an olive branch....
Then an equally big opportunity was missed recently by not supporting higher gas milage standards. ANWR is good for short-term profits but not for a long-term impact. Your figures, Rip, are not supported by clear heads, even in the oil industy. In fact, some in the industry think ANWR was just a smokescreen to distract congress from some of the significant corporate welfare provision in the bil(s).
As for "Alternative Fuel" research, well it's a piddling amount designed primarly for PR purposes, which seems to have worked. The Democrats strongly support alternative fuels though, as long as they involve Corn, ADM bribes (I mean campaign financing), Agri-Senators and heavy/hidden taxpayer subsidies.
There is too much money invested in the current petroleum infrastructure for there to be a change anytime soon.
A link:
Bush Oil Policy (http://www.keithreid.com/storage/oilpolicy.htm)
Charon
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Your last sentence said a mouthful Charon! Considering we have a "Knee-jerk reactionary" type Gov't...doubt anything significant will be done until demand gets higher and the supply, lower.
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Rip, that was my point. Did the patriotic reaction to the terrorist attack provide an opportunity for the government to accomplish something that would be otherwise politically impossible?
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Originally posted by popeye
Rip, that was my point. Did the patriotic reaction to the terrorist attack provide an opportunity for the government to accomplish something that would be otherwise politically impossible?
Your original post was this:
I think there was an opportunity for the President to ask Americans for personal sacrifice that might have been politically unpopular at any other time. Instead, he asked people only to return to "business as usual", to travel, and to go shopping.
Then you proposed what YOUR plan would be.
So now I'm confused. Are you saying that the Gov't should have done your scenario? In that scenario, you want to further tax Americans?
No, I think the research can be funded in other ways other than gasoline taxes *if* that research is not in lines with the "Global Warming" lobby group that is Oz behind the curtain...
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Any president that said "Human Activity has no link to Global Warming" Is retarded. I feel sorry for our Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren when our president says this.
Times a running out...
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Please do take this the wrong way anyone.. But, there are safe ways to drill for oil like that Turbo pump and other means.. Drilling in Alaska should be done.
We can get our own oil and tell those over int he middle east that their going to be put of of business.
Thats my thoughts.
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After we tear down your house and sell the contents to make money for the Cheneys, you're going to be glad it's warmer.
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Please do take this the wrong way anyone.. But, there are safe ways to drill for oil like that Turbo pump and other means.. Drilling in Alaska should be done. We can get our own oil and tell those over int he middle east that their going to be put of of business.
Unfortunately Nunch, we dont have enough easy oil to make any real difference. The reasons are outlined in the article I posted. ANWR represents a reserve of easy oil, but it's not really significant. There is still some harder to recover oil left in the US, but it's not economically viable. In fact, we shut down wells each day -- that will never be able to be reopened for hydrologic reasons -- because they have become lower producing and too expensive compared to the international market.
Cheap oil = imports, which is unavoidable. Our ability to reduce demand is our best weapon at this point, but even so it’s not a huge weapon.
Your last sentence said a mouthful Charon! Considering we have a "Knee-jerk reactionary" type Gov't...doubt anything significant will be done until demand gets higher and the supply, lower.
Absolutely Rip. These new technologies still need considerable development to be cost effective, the distribution infrastructure would then have to be developed, production facilities built, automotive engines built, a transition period of natural replacement as the shift is made from gasoline/diesel to whatever approach, initial development cost pass alongs... a titanic change. It would be an Apollo or Manhattan-level project that would still take many years.
Petroleum, for all it's faults still provides a lot of energy for little cost. The only thing that will change that any time soon is a serious disruption in the Middle East. Our efforts in Iraq (as with the Gulf War) are likely centered on this rationale (even Cheney is now linking the "weapons of mass destruction" spin with "oil reserves" in his recent speeches) as well as ancillary benefits from having access to the Iraqi oil itself.
We have to decide if it is worth the risk and if it is morally justifiable in today's enlightened world. Like it or not, our current way of life (and not just in the USA by any means) is tied to oil. To some extent (gross oversimplification ahead), we are similar to Japan's position in the late 1930s. Not nearly as desperate, and for far different reasons, but we are facing a potential treat to a vital national interest. I'm just not sure that an attack on Iraq is justified for that “potential” reason alone (perhaps it is), or that it could be controlled so that we wouldn't face a worst case scenario for both the region and our own economy. We live, as always, in interesting times.
Charon
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Rip, I am saying that I believed there was a potential resource of "patriotic self sacrifice" available after the terrorist attack that might have been used to accomplish a goal that would be politically impossible in "normal" times. One such goal might be the reduction of our energy consumption. The sacrifice would be accepting higher taxes to fund the research, development, and deployment of energy efficient vehicles and appliances, and alternative energy sources. One of the benefits would be reduction of dependence on foreign oil, with its dangerous alliances.
The oil isn't going to last forever, no matter how many wars we are willing to fight for it. I think current known reserves are something like 40 years. Pay now, or pay later. The terrorist attack might have been an opportunity to persuade Americans to pay now, and feel good about it.
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Originally posted by popeye
Rip, I am saying that I believed there was a potential resource of "patriotic self sacrifice" available after the terrorist attack that might have been used to accomplish a goal that would be politically impossible in "normal" times. One such goal might be the reduction of our energy consumption. The sacrifice would be accepting higher taxes to fund the research, development, and deployment of energy efficient vehicles and appliances, and alternative energy sources. One of the benefits would be reduction of dependence on foreign oil, with its dangerous alliances.
The oil isn't going to last forever, no matter how many wars we are willing to fight for it. I think current known reserves are something like 40 years. Pay now, or pay later. The terrorist attack might have been an opportunity to persuade Americans to pay now, and feel good about it.
I understand that, and OUR proposal is to reduce our dependancy on foreign oil by drilling in ONLY 2% of the 100% NWR. So, we're back at square one for politics. You believe in higher taxes and funding future energy exploration via the tax payers (Typical democrat, tax and spend) and I believe in using the existing resources and funding alternative energy exploration thru alternate means (Tariffs, import/export control laws, special use taxes such as high fuel consuming vehicles, etc)
So, no, no lost opportunity. If Bush would have proposed everything the democrats have been asking for in the last 20 years, they'd have shot him down in order to get votes, period.;)
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Originally posted by Fatty
There's only 194 left (I counted them).
Ya know what I learned working not only on the Valdez spill but many others befor and after? You can publish a picture that supports your view all to easily, do you think that that pic was taken by some naturist? My bet is that it was shot by some oil worker < or even more likely someone from their media relations dept > to help them in their bid for more drilling rights or even just an inhouse calendar
One thing about oil companies that is a constant, they will skew any fact or perception to further increase their profits. OTOH, so will Greenpeace publish skewed psuedo scientific "evidence" to promote their cause.
To put it simply, for every pic of a serene environment that shows oil production not being a danger to the environment there's a dosen pics showing just the oposite...but those pics never make it into the public domain.
I can't tell yas how many times I was forced to burn, tear up or erase images that I captured in AK during and well after the spill.
That was my job for 15 years, chasing spills and documenting the cleanup and prevention measures.
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Well, Rip, the Democrats gave Bush his Patriot Act....who knows.... :)
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Animals have feelings too.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Good Point...But your right GeeDub and all his chronies would rather destroy our home if it made them all richer...
That is not only the remark of a simpleton, but is laughable as well. I believe you to be highly impressionable and young I hope....at least that would be a good excuse for that remark.
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Originally posted by senna
Oh oh, disapearing animals, whats that building over there?
Caribou rendering plant.
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Popeye get a book called "The Skeptical Environmentalist" by Bjorn Lomborg to see some of the drawbacks of your proposal.
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Has it ever crossed the minds of any of you experten enviromentalists that perhaps the best strategy is to use up someone else's oil reserves first, rather than deplete our own?
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Originally posted by Rude
Has it ever crossed the minds of any of you experten enviromentalists that perhaps the best strategy is to use up someone else's oil reserves first, rather than deplete our own?
At the price of war?
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Customers who bought titles by Bjorn Lomborg also bought titles by these authors:
Bernard Goldberg
Joel Best
Ann H. Coulter
Robert D. Kaplan
Kenneth R. Timmerman
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I don't have any books by those authors. Lomborg's book is excellent. I've been involved in the energy conservation field since 1986 and he knows what he's talking about. If you do things that "seem" right, without doing a cost/benefit analysis, you can screw things up pretty badly.
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A good example of an "Apollo Program" for energy (huge expenditure for the sake of implementing new technology) is the California ZEV initiative.
Read it and weep. (http://www.cmta.net/features/092700zevmandate.php)
Another article. (http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2001/August/200108_feature_carb.xml)
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Rip.......
You really believe this is soley about oil?
Stability of the region which effects the flow of oil yes, but not the same as what I said earlier.
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Originally posted by Rude
That is not only the remark of a simpleton, but is laughable as well. I believe you to be highly impressionable and young I hope....at least that would be a good excuse for that remark.
"Human Activity has no link to Global Warming"
That is the remark of a Simpleton.
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Hey Nefari, prove it. :)
No scientists have done so, maybe you can win the Nobel prize.
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"Human activities have altered the chemical composition of the atmosphere through the buildup of greenhouse gases – primarily carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide. The heat-trapping property of these gases is undisputed although uncertainties exist about exactly how earth’s climate responds to them. Go to the Emissions section for much more on greenhouse gases."
from
The EPA (http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/climate/index.html)
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And?
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Originally posted by funkedup
And?
Dammit Funked, don't make me come over there with a thermometer!!!
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LOL!!! :D
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yeah midnight we all know the EPA always gives completly factual information out...
just like in the late 80's when the garbarge barge wasn't allowed to dock. Landfill owners were unsure if there was any hazardous materials on it .. NOT because they had no space like the good 'ol EPA made the public believe...
of course then the EPA put out a battery of statistice saying we would run out of landfill space in 20 yrs. (the then assistant director admitted in 1999 that the stats. were flawed)
this put in the public conscience the need to recycle everything.
it doesn't matter that the annual budget uses over $1 billion tax dollars on sorting and storing the curbside "recycled" waste that noone has any use for.
the EPA also did a excavation of a 20 yr. old landfill in AZ and it's findings were less than 1/2 of 1% was styrofoam and less than .5% total mass was plastic. a half eaten hotdog was more recognizable than 1 plastic bag. (these bags were before we had developed bio-degrading thinner bags).
once this study was complete the EPA decided that the info was irrelevant and didn't need to publish these stats publically
don't get me wrong... INDUSTRIAL recycling in a must.
the waste generated by factories is usually raw material type and easy to recover.
so think twice before you trust anything stated by a orginization that only gets funded for causes that it can prove are enviromently sound.
if you want a copy of the report i did on this subject in college (including my sources of statistics)email me: dmray_1@yahoo.com
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Wrong. The caribou population INCREASED after we laid the Alaskan pipeline, they have patrols that have to reduce the herds yearly now. Go figure.
Got numbers on that?
I was talking about the proposed field. Not the existing one.
PS: Nevermind, found my own.
"A series of scientific papers published since 1992 consistently show that the caribou population has increased dramatically during the period of oil field development, and caribou herds regularly use ranges in the oil fields"
Got to find info on caribo population projections for the proposed project.
Thanks for the heads up.
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"The coastal plain is the biological heart of the Refuge, to which the vast Porcupine River caribou herd migrates each spring to give birth. The Department of Interior has concluded that development in the coastal plain would result in major adverse impacts on the caribou population. According to biologists from the Alaska Department of Fish and Game caribou inhabiting the oil fields do not thrive as well as members of the same herd that seldom encounter oil-related facilities."
"Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt has likened drilling in the Refuge to damming up the Grand Canyon; "
The US's Department of the Interior's report can be found here.
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/1002/
"From the mid-1970s through the mid-1980s, use of calving and summer habitats by Central Arctic herd caribou (Rangifer tarandus granti) declined near petroleum development infrastructure on Alaska’s arctic coastal plain (Cameron et al. 1979; Cameron and Whitten 1980; Smith and Cameron 1983; Whitten and Cameron 1983a, 1985; Dau and Cameron 1986)."
"Since 1978, changes in the distribution of calving caribou associated with the Kuparuk petroleum development area, west of Prudhoe Bay (Fig. 4.1), have been quantified using strip-transect surveys flown by helicopter.
"After construction of a road system near Milne Point, mean caribou abundance declined by more than two-thirds within 2 km from a road and was less than expected, overall, within 4 km; but nearly doubled 4-6 km from roads (Fig. 4.3) (Cameron et al. 1992b). Prior to road placement, caribou were found in a single, more-or-less continuous concentration roughly centered where the Milne Point Road was subsequently built. After construction of the road, a bimodal distribution with separate concentrations east and west of the road was clearly apparent (Fig. 4.4) (Smith and Cameron 1992), indicating avoidance of infrastructure by calving caribou."
Anyway there's alot more like that. There may have been a net increase in the caribo population but that was do to other factors. Oil fields DO lead to a decrease in caribou populations.
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Let's see...
Happy Caribou
OR
World peace and economic stability
Hmmmmmmmmm I CAN'T DECIDE!!!!!!!!!!
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There may have been a net increase in the caribo population but that was do to other factors. Oil fields DO lead to a decrease in caribou populations.
I doubt that oil fields are good for caribou but you should try to avoid contradicting yourself in consecutive sentences. :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Hey Nefari, prove it. :)
No scientists have done so, maybe you can win the Nobel prize.
Take a look at the average temperature of everyday for the last 15 years.
I guarantee you will notice a trend. You dont have to be a Weather Man to see it.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I doubt that oil fields are good for caribou but you should try to avoid contradicting yourself in consecutive sentences. :)
10 caribou are born a year on average.
-3 for having an oil field in the area.
+5 because food was good that year.
Net effect 12 caribou are born that year.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Let's see...
Happy Caribou
OR
World peace and economic stability
Hmmmmmmmmm I CAN'T DECIDE!!!!!!!!!!
The issue is about a shared natural resource, not happy caribou. There is no way you can prove that tapping into an oil field that MAY or MAY NOT pan out will lead to world peace and economic stability. We CAN prove that it WILL diddly up this shared resource.
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I can't disagree with that. I just don't give the caribou very high weight in my value system.
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The worse thing is that we have the options, and were led to believe we dont, like drilling is what will solve our problem.
Free Energy is the Answer.
I quote Dr Steven Greer.
Utopia? No, because human society will always be imperfect — but perhaps not as dysfunctional as it is today. These technologies are real — I have seen them. Anti-gravity is a reality and so is free energy generation. This is not a fantasy or a hoax. Do not believe those who say that this is not possible: they are the intellectual descendants of those who said the Wright brothers would never fly.
Current human civilization has reached the point of being able to commit planeticide: the killing of an entire world. We can and we must do better. These technologies exist and every single person who is concerned about the environment and the human future should call for urgent hearings to allow these technologies to be disclosed, declassified and safely applied.
more-
An international effort to minimize disruption to the economy and to ease the transition to this new social and economic reality will be needed. We can do this and we must. Special interests in certain oil, energy and economic sectors need to be reigned in and at the same time treated compassionately: Nobody likes to see their power and empire crumble. Nations very dependent on the sale of oil and gas will need help diversifying, stabilizing and transitioning to a new economic order.
more-
The United States, Europe and Japan will need to adjust to a new geo-political reality as well: As currently poor but populous countries dramatically develop technologically and economically, they will demand — and will get — a meaningful seat at the international table. And this is as it should be. But the international community will need to put in place safeguards to prevent such potential geo-political rapprochement between the first and third world from devolving into bellicose and disruptive behavior on the part of the newly empowered.
more-
If we act now, by 2030 we will be able to effectively eliminate all poverty in the world, as we know it today. We only need the courage to accept these changes and the wisdom to steer humanity safely and peacefully into a new time.
I could go on and on...
Sorry to hijack.
If your interested I can give ya a link...
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^
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Originally posted by funkedup
I can't disagree with that. I just don't give the caribou very high weight in my value system.
That's part of the problem.:(
Here in Canada the mighty caribou is highly revered. So much so, that it's image appears on our 25 cent coin. The noble beaver, (our national rat...I mean animal) only rates a place on the nickel.
Honestly, I can understand how the caribou might not mean much to an American. By the same token, the oil doesn't mean much to us as we have craploads of it already.
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Heh! I bow to the master, you blow away my eat the caribou so nobody notices plan.
Now if only Steven Greer can find out where they hid all those UFOs from him....
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You Mock me with a picture of a nice glass bong...
I can only take that as a complement.
Wake Up! Funkedup.
Drilling for more Oil only prolongs the inevitable. We are decades away from no Oil at all, I cant count the number of times i have heard this from credible sources. You will be fortunate, you will probably be dead by the time this happens, I'm guessing i will be too. Why not try to make a difference?
We keep passing our problem to a younger generation. And my generation is where it will stop.
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I was thinking, I bet the reason that caribou population is increasing is because we've hunted it's predators for so long.
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"The single most cause of death among caribou is getting stuck to the steel pipeline by their tounges. Unable to get away they are easy prey for ravenous wolves."
And-
"Many a lonely pipeline worker has 'inspected the pipe' after dusk in search of caribou calves stuck by their tounges to the steel pipe. For the pipeline worker it's a poor substitute for what awaits them at home; for the caribou calf it's a humiliation that, if they survive the night and the morning sun thaws the icy grip of the pipeline, will cause the caribou to avoid pipelines- and men- forever."
-Abdul Bergmann, Alaskan pipeline worker
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LOL funked, nice bong. Or is that a noodle enlarger?
:D
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Originally posted by senna
LOL funked, nice bong. Or is that a noodle enlarger?
:D
Both
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Christ Funked, you got folks staring at me as I'm LMAO reading your posts above. Hehehehe!
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"-Abdul Bergmann, Alaskan pipeline worker"
ROFL... Spitting and everything!