Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saurdaukar on September 11, 2002, 10:35:25 PM
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Hiya guys. This is going to be a long post, Im sorry, but Im about as angry as Ive ever been.
Im in my last semester of college. Obviously today in one of my classes, Middle East (Political Science major), we discussed the attacks.
During this discussion, I was appauled at some of the, as I saw it, "Anti-American" viewpoints.
There was one individual in particular who came armed to the teeth with facts and figures and rhetoric claiming that we brought this upon ourselves.
My problem here is not necessarily with this person, whose name I do not even know, but the fact that alot of the younger students seemed to agree with him.
I find myself angered because it seems to me that the "educated youth" (college students) of today are simply stupid. Somehow during the course of the last ten years, it has become fashionable to bash this country. Education runs on course with the idea that America is "bad" and our foriegn policy is "bad" and so on...
My first question, mainly to those of you around my age (22), is "is my experience isolated, or are you all experiencing something like this?"
I found myself almost yelling during this class, citing various theories of imperialism and the benifits of exploitation (that was his major argument) as well as various differences in the military cultures involved.
Regardless of who is "right" and who is "wrong," what hurts me here is the fact that... not before, and not after the attacks, have we gained any REAL patriotism. How can ANYONE POSSIBLY bash this country if they live in it!?!?
Percieved intelligence and TOTAL lack of experience breeds this stupidity and I encourage all of you to snuff this out. I see this behavior as anti-nationalistic, and furthermore, an insult to those that lost their lives last September, servicemen of all types, and our government.
I have been arguing for years that this country has no nationalism or culture. In a strange way, I believe that 9/11/01 helped to fix that. People came together not as blacks, whites, chritians, jews, etc, but as AMERICANS!
Apparently, however, 4,000 lives lost, major symbols of American might destroyed, and our way of life changed was not enough for some people. How anyone can STILL be bad-mouthing this country is beyond me.
No one loves this country anymore.
We have all become sublime... we take what we have for granted. Hell, the attacks were all but forgotten 6 months later...
I suggest that this country take its place in the world.
The United States needs to do something about this threat to our soveriegnty NOW.
I say not argue about whether or not to go into Iraq... it should have been done a year ago. And as long as were there, lets "cleanse" the rest of the nations who oppose us. Dont bother with finding "evidence" of anti-American activity... anyone with half a brain knows who is behind this and who is not.
This will happen again if measures are not taken swiftly. The response to 9/11/01 SHOULD have been blindingly swift and devastaing. These people need to be of the mindset that attacking America is insane... they knock over a few buildings? Why dont we go bomb a few diddlying cities. They bomb an embassy? Lets march into the guilty country.
As long as we continue to popsicle-foot around playing world policeman and getting our bellybutton punctured, smiling the whole time, lets go play "You diddlyed me, now Im going to diddly you harder."
Sorry for my language... just watched a documentary on the attacks on CBS, very well done... well done enough for me to get fired up all over again.
I suppose Ill end the post as Im losing my direction... Ive got so many points Id like to make, but they span the spectrum of the events and the site doesnt have the bandwidth to support them all.
My question above applies, are college students elsewhere experiencing this?
If so, I encourage all of you to "educate" these people. The only way you can be of the mindset that "We are wrong" is through sheer ignorance.
Disclaimer: The writer makes no appologies for punctuation or spelling.
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Saurdaukar, don't get me wrong, I hate those ragheads just as much as you.
But, getting away from the specific 9/11 attacks, you really need to get on the other side of the fence to get an honest view. The USA is essentially a good country, however, like any good capitilist country (and I am a capitilist) it likes to swing the odds in its favour when it can.
Now, I am all for nuking the ragheads responsible for 9/11, but you need to stand back and look at the cause and affect scenarios that happen when you do diddly around with other countries. And some of your classmates may have a better concept of this.
There are a lot of things that go on that you may not know about. For example, a simple non-warring example. Where I live, NZ, farming products are the core of our economy. We export a lot of dairy and meat products. Recently the USA placed trade restrictions on us, illegal restrictions according to the WTO. All it did effectively was raise meat prices in the USA for lamb, screw our farmers, and pay off US farmers who were actually unprofitable.
Now remember, at the same time the US shoves 'free trade' agreements down our throats and goes mental at any restrictions or duties we place on exports from the USA to us.
To NZ, this was a massive issue, was it reported in the USA? I doubt it. Did it piss off a lot of Kiwi's? Hell yes.
Just remember, you don't see both sides of the story most of the time. To a lot of people outside the USA, the country seems to be run by business's fronted by politicians, with a population ignorant of when the USA toejams on other countries.
Now in the above scenario Kiwis are a relaxed bunch. But piss of ragheads and they do crazy stuff, nothing will ever rationalise the 9/11 crap, but you need to tread carefully when there are people in this world that place such a low value on life like Bin Laden.
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I understand what you are saying, and agree with you in some respects. I dont have the international perspective that you do, however.
I will agree that the general population is uninformed (didnt know about any trade restrictions with you "buggers" in NZ) ;)
and I find it interesting that the rest of the world has this view.
Capitalist we are, like most of the world. In this case, we are trying to protect our own interests, just as any other country would. I dont see the problem with this... at least I dont see it as a problem worthy of destroying building and killing people.
I may be just another "dumb American" but I seem to be the only one who doesnt see the exploitation of other countries as bad...?
If we didnt exploit 3rd world countries we'd be, IMHO A. Stupid. and B. Much worse off. Imagine paying double, if not TRIPLE for something as trivial as items of clothing because they arent made in Mexico or China.
The above works off of a very complex theory which I wont even attempt to explain here...
I guess my issue is not with whether or not the United State has flawed foriegn policy... but the fact that the citizens of this country wont stand behind it!
Its become fashionable today to squeak and moan about everything. Before Bush voiced his desire to go into Iraq, the news headlines over here were all BLAMING the administration for LETTING THIS HAPPEN! They said it could have been prevented, why didnt we know, etc, etc etc.
Now, when we try and go do something preemptive, the media turns around and puts the "Why do this?" spin on it...
Its all very frustrating and I wish I understood it better... but I still maintain that flawed or not, US foreign policy is in the best interests of its citizens. We do what any other country would if they had the influence to pull it off. Why isnt France supporting an invasion of Iraq? Because Iraq owes France ALOT of money. :D
If the regime is changed, France doesnt get paid. Why isnt Russia 100% behind this? Because Russia sells ALOT of weapons to Iraq... the list goes on...
Every country in the WORLD acts in their own interest... why is the United States the only nation made to give "reasons" for this behavior?
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Did you listen and analized his viewpoints from an unbiased position? Very strong patriotism will make that very hard but it is posible. You know just as you may discard and hate everything he said because it seemed anti-american, maybe he was saying a lot of things that were true but you completly let by.
I'm not saying he was right, its not like I was listening to what he said, but something to consider.
The Unexamined life is not worth living
- Socrates
Ps.:
No one loves this country anymore.
We have all become sublime... we take what we have for granted. Hell, the attacks were all but forgotten 6 months later...
I dont know whats the problem with you but this is roadkill you are spewing. Attacks forgotten? I think we were all reminded of them EVERY SINGLE DAY since they happened.
Maybe thats why I'm unemotional about the aniversary. I'm already USED to 9/11, its gospel every single day.
Cool your head dude.
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Oh, and I read my post again - I think I may have given the impression that "We are NOT at fault."
Obviously this is not true... we are "at fault" but we did not "bring this upon ourselves."
Hmm... that may not make sense... sorry its late... hmm.. how can I explain this better...
US foreign Policy may be flawed when viewed from outside the US, but it is necessary... and my beef comes from the fact that those students Im refering to look at the issue from outside the country and dont even think about the repercussions INSIDE the country if the policies are changed.
Take the farming issue with NZ... our farmers would be going bankrupt if not for that action. Sure we pissed off some Kiwi farmers... but "tough toejam, its either us or them." I say that our citizens spend too much time thinking of "them" and not enough thinking "us."
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Obviously this is not true... we are "at fault" but we did not "bring this upon ourselves."
I understand what you are trying to say, and sorry, but you will not achieve a good discussion about it here.
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Originally posted by Animal
Ps.:
I dont know whats the problem with you but this is roadkill you are spewing. Attacks forgotten? I think we were all reminded of them EVERY SINGLE DAY since they happened.
Maybe thats why I'm unemotional about the aniversary. I'm already USED to 9/11, its gospel every single day.
Obviously a discussion without insults is out of the question, thanks a bunch...
YES they were forgotten... do you go outside of the house?
Sure we had flags flying for 6 months afterwards... but what happened after that? The temporary patriotism left. In early September, these feelings came back... but if there is one things Americans are good it, its forgetting.
How many flags did you see outside in July? As many as last September? No.
How many stickers to you see on cars today? As many as last september? No.
Everyone was yelling and screaming patriotism... but the enlistment lines were E M P T Y.
My argument is that we are not doing enough as a country to A. Make sure this doesnt happen again, and B. support the decisions of our own government.
If you think that the ebb and flow of "support" and "rememberance" over the past 12 months (just think of a "U" from Sep to Sep) is sufficient, then I think your idea of "enough" is anything but.
The citizens of this country dont care ENOUGH... thats my argument.
In the future, refrain from telling me or anyone else that I am "spewing roadkill" and perhaps your words wont fall on defensive ears. Ive never been insulted for being patriotic before... this is definately a first... perhaps you are of the variety I mention?
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I'm not insulting you for being patriotic, far from it. In fact, I'm not insulting you, I'm saying what you said was BS, it doesnt necesesarily mean you are or everything else you say.
That said,
Flags and car decals are NOT a measure of patriotism.
People GOT OVER THE ATTACK 6 months after, YES. Americans are STRONG, their lives were not over because of the terrorist attack.
It took 6 whole months (that you noticed because of the flags) for people to recover and that is a lot.
Do you understand?
Oh and on enlistment lines, this is not WWII, and the ARMY is not the same. We dont need millions of soldiers to fight terrorism, we already have the professional ARMY we need.
The citizens of this country dont care ENOUGH... thats my argument.
Just so that I can try to understand your hidden argument, what would be caring enough to you?
What would people have to do for you to go "Ok they care"
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Originally posted by Animal
Just so that I can try to understand your hidden argument, what would be caring enough to you?
What would people have to do for you to go "Ok they care"
Stop criticizing our own actions and start criticizing the actions of those responsible for flying 767's into buildings.
We've lost sight of who actually did the flying, it seems.
Did you lose anyone you knew in New York or Washington? Those of us who did are by no means "over it."
If you want an example of people who have forgotten (gotten "over it?"), check out some of the "minute of silence" threads in the O Club... all the evidence you need.
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We have all become sublime... we take what we have for granted. Hell, the attacks were all but forgotten 6 months later...
If you want an example of people who have forgotten (gotten "over it?"), check out some of the "minute of silence" threads in the O Club... all the evidence you need.
I'm having a hard time understanding you. You are contradicting yourself.
First you tell me people forgot about it 6 months after, and now you are pointing me to people who never got over ir including our own bbs :confused:
In short, you are throwing my own arguement back at me like I was the one who made the first post? :confused:
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Take the farming issue with NZ... our farmers would be going bankrupt if not for that action. Sure we pissed off some Kiwi farmers... but "tough toejam, its either us or them." I say that our citizens spend too much time thinking of "them" and not enough thinking "us."
Are you refering to the Great Kiwi Glut where our farmers dumped so many kiwis on the New Zealand populace we forced the NZ kiwi farmers out of business? After we bankrupt all the kiwi farmers by dumping kiwis on the New Zealand market the price of kiwis increased tenfold. Now most New Zealanders can no longer afford to eat kiwis, and not since the Irish Potato Famine have we seen such starvation among one of Queen Mother's colonies. Of sourse the Reagan administration hushed this up. I'm surprised they're teaching this now.
Saur, don't worry bout what you're learning in college because the Republicans have shipped all our jobs overseas. All that's left is service jobs, and those will only be available until they figure out how to ship a pizza from Tijuana to Portland in twenty minutes or less- then even those jobs will be gone. You're brighter than these guys just because you don't cave to peer pressure, so and if there's any justice left in the job market you'll be the guy sitting at the drive through booth while your classmates will be cookin da fries and flippin da burgers. Stick to your guns, question authority- even the college professors.
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Im a college student aroud your age as well and have heard the exact same thing from degenerate idiots at my school also. Its funny because so much of what they say is verbatim rehashing of traditional cold war anti-US communist and socialist propaganda cominbined with the fashionable late 1990s hatred of Western civilization. With the fall of communism in the early 1990s these degenerates can no longer criticize the USA from a direct cold war perspective so they have shifted to attacks on Western culture in general with a specific focus on US global capitalsm.
The ironic thing about this is that most of these left wing USA degenerates, at least the vast majority I have come in contact with, are pretty much rich or midle class brats of succesful proffesional parents. In other words they take the US lifestyle for granted and have no idea of what is involved in maintainig it. They assume it is possible to live such comfortable lives under any systtem, but only that that the USA is somehow in the way. So they attack the USA, of course I suppose they are obliviouis to the fact that our country is one of the few who wouldnt imprison or shoot them on sight for such traiterous thoughts. ( Although we should). Anyway they find it easy and harmless to spew such filth from the safety of their parents bank accounts and comfort of air conditioned politcally correct classrooms.
For example the degenerate Marxists at UC Berkeley given the task of planning a 911 tribute wanted to exclude any reference to the red/white/blue of the American flag as doing so, they thought, would be intollerant and insensitive to non americans. In turn they proposed to hand out white ribbons. I guess they only wanted to spare the feelings of degenerate anti-american zealots like themselves and cared little for anyonle else. If they PC roadkill examined their choce of a white ribbon as carefully as they examined the US flag they could have noticed that the Taliban flag was a pure white backround with small green islamic script. Couldnt they imagine somebody would be offended by taliban colors, especially after 911. Nope, only the USA is evil to these degenerates.
Now Animal I have to AGREE wirh your contention that we must look at the statements of these degenerate traitors in an objective manner. And any objective analysis of their hateful propaganda will show them to be degenerates. They desrerve the same type of analiysis as hate groups and terrorists. These young people are either stupid and ignorant sounding boards of established socialist/communist left wing USA hating agitators, or they are new breed of dementedd youth culture. A sort of by-product of the virulently anti-US hateful scholastic culture that hes developed over the past decade. What can you say when the scholastic presentation of a figure such as George Washington has turned from US hero, when I began school in the USA in 1989, to becoming some sort of evil opressor in one US history class I took in 2000. What else can these children learn to think of the USA when incresingly fed this garbage daily over the past decade.
The other crucial element in this is the idea that a US culture does not exist at all- in fact that americans dont exist as a people. I recently had discussions with a school friend of mine that illustrate this perfectly. He had lived in the USA most of his life, spoke english, ate all type of US food, watched US movies and participated like everyone else in all facets of US life. Yet he did not consider himself an american, he only saw himself as chinese. A whole generation has grown up in an atmosphere that facilitates this line of thinking. Again I have seen this directly in my schooling. In 1989 America was described to me as a "melting pot" by around 1996 in High School it had become a "salad bowl". I suppose over the next few years it was slated to become a "hors de'ouvres platter" then perhaps a seven course meal... Very sad to have witnesses this myself, but also very fortunate to be aware of this transformation.
So this is basically the origin of our degenerate youth these days. There is more but I'm fresh out of energy responding to it so I will conclude.
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Saurdaukar, I read the thread from the top down, and when I first saw this:
"There was one individual in particular who came armed to the teeth with facts and figures and rhetoric claiming that we brought this upon ourselves. ".
I also wondered how well you argued against his facts and figures.
I have argued with people and not necessary like what they are saying. But if they could defend it then I had to give ground. I'm not saying he was right. What I'm trying to say is try to argue your points and listen to arguements from a place of logic, not from passion.
I'm not trying to sound conceited, I'm just a beginner when it comes to logic and critical thought.
I've been reading this site, provided by Toad.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index
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Saur, what do you expect from a university PS class? You didn't say what university you're attending. If the prevailing student body is more liberal than conservative, then the "blame game" will get more voice, imo. Some college professors in particular, are responsible for much of this attitude...probably trying to make up for their own failings in the real world. What's better than a captive audience?
The academic world is very difficult to survive in for the professors. I believe in many instances, they espouse opinions they think will be met with agreement from the other profs in the dept. Unofficially, decisions concerning tenure, the holy grail of professorship, must be unanimous by everyone in the dept. The safest way to be, is to wet a finger and hold it to the prevailing winds. This is called conforming.
It's my opinion, some of the most outspoken of the students, are interested in becoming professors themselves one day, so they say what their mentor wants to hear. The entire process is a vicious circle of "psychobabble", where no one has the guts, or experience to raise their hand and say to a professor or speaker, "Please explain what you just said in layman's terms."
Instead of that, the babble is met with applause, and the questions are asked later, "What was the prof/speaker talking about?"
I admire you Saur, for standing up to the anti-American arguments in class. I am curious. Are there any non-traditional students in your class...say 35 years old and above? If so, what input do they contribute, and do they usually agree with the status quo, or do they call professors to task on what is said in class? In my experience, the older non-trads always do this. And usually, the prof moves on to another subject.
You should consider becoming a college professor Saur. It would be a service to the community, and a refreshing departure from the status quo. Good luck mate.
Les:)
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Now this is exactly what I am talking about - sort of. Take two examples:
The first the lamb issue. US farmers are uncompetitive and unprofiitable. NZ Farmers are competitive, effecient, and profitable. The US puts heavy tarrifs on imported lamb. Who pays those tarrifs - the kiwi farmers? No, the US consumer. The NZ farmers then take their business elsewhere, NZ consumbers also benefit by cheaper meat on the market. So who lost out? Well, the NZ farmers did a little, but the big losers here are the US consumers. You are essentially propping up an industry that cannot sustain itself - which, btw, is socialism :) . Should times get lean this industry will fall over big time, and you will have to rely on imported heavily tarriffed (and expensive meats). Tough toejam applies to the US consumer.
Second example. NZ went through many reforms in the 80's and 90's. Including lifting tarriffs on a huge amount of imported goods. Basically the goverment said if the internal business could not compete with imports then they were in the wrong business. This included cars, assembly plants for cars closed down in quick succession. There was a brief period of pain for some, but we recovered quickly. But then we started landing cheaper vehicles, suddenly the consumer had a vast amount of high quality feature rich cars to chose from. Whereas before we had been kneecapped by local assemblers relying on import tarriffs to protect their inefficient businesses. Thats capitilism.
See the difference?
Sometimes the US is extremely short sighted, sometimes you allow yourselves to be driven by polical lust which in turn is driven by short sighted businessmen. Over here we call it navel gazing.
Take GW's current push on war with Iraq. I hate the diddlyer Saddam. I'd love to see his arse smeared over the desert. But right now a war with Iraq would make 9/11 style attacks a daily occurance. Saddam is just itching for another reason to set all the fundamentilists off.
I think the real point is there are people behind the power in the US making the wrong decisions and selling them to the public. All politicians are general buttwipes, but yours seem to be buttwipes owned by business (whereas ours are just total tards Bent Spoon Award (http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2048460a11,00.html) ).
p.s. Elf, wtf are you on about, first we don't eat kiwi's, they are a pprotected species, second we don't farm them - it'd be... uhhh impossible?
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
US foreign Policy may be flawed when viewed from outside the US, but it is necessary... and my beef comes from the fact that those students Im refering to look at the issue from outside the country and dont even think about the repercussions INSIDE the country if the policies are changed.
Take the farming issue with NZ... our farmers would be going bankrupt if not for that action. Sure we pissed off some Kiwi farmers... but "tough toejam, its either us or them." I say that our citizens spend too much time thinking of "them" and not enough thinking "us."
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Its like the old saying : "Those who can't, teach".
Just look at Mathman :D
Originally posted by Leslie
The academic world is very difficult to survive in for the professors. I believe in many instances, they espouse opinions they think will be met with agreement from the other profs in the dept. Unofficially, decisions concerning tenure, the holy grail of professorship, must be unanimous by everyone in the dept. The safest way to be, is to wet a finger and hold it to the prevailing winds. This is called conforming.
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This is realated to the title of the post, On sept 10th My Girlfriend (Primary school teacher) Told the class that they was going to have a minuites silence on the 11th( live in a very mixed religion area) in case any one was opposed to it, they wasnt and was really enthusiastic about the fact that they should respect the people who were killed, fair enough later that day (shes teaching WW2 this term) She showed what could be described as quite a graphic upseting video on D-Day and some off the kids were just not interested or showing any respect, at the end of the video they show one of the grave yards in france and some narator was saying a poem in memory of the millions who died in WW2 and again some kids were taking the piss out of it and pretending to cry. Any way she shouted like hell at them Calling them disrespectful yada yada yada. So I have totaly forgoten my point now but you can guess what im saying:rolleyes:
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We seem to forget WHY they did it on 9-11. They did it simply because our very way of life disqusts them. They hate the West and the U.S.A in particular simply because we ARE Western.
Dont fool yourself into thinking these indiv's have some sort vengence built upon economic policy of the U.S in their lands.
Their hate is built upon religion... the most obscure and intense reason to hate besides political differences which is a religion in its self really.
These childrean have yet to experience the world.... to grow and see what is really of value. They are easily influnced and manipulated by others.... dont let this get you down. Many of the most hardcore "leftwingers" from the 60's changed their tune as they grew older. Experience DOES change ones perspective.
xBAT
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It's the foreign politics that foreigners doesn't like about US.
trade things... which has pissed off many countries.
US has double stantards in foreign politics; it's politics can require alot of things from other countries and wonder why they aren't willing to do things, while themselves refuse from alot of things that most countries have already agreed to.
As good example, US doesn't want to have their troops trialed in international court, but yet they want to act like world police and convict foreigners on their country and by their laws, without other countries involvement.
US citizens doesn't have much power in politics, they are following the politicians like sheeps follows the herd.
This is to say that I'm faulting the politicians and media.
Does this make me anti-american? no.
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Graphic depictions of the D-Day landings are too much for small children to comprehend. Their atttention span is short anyway.
With all due respect Mushkin, your girlfriend broke down and lost control of the situation, which she brought on herself.
She's in the wrong occupation if she can't handle restless children without yelling at them. I'll give you an example of when I was in the second grade, and all the kids in class just heard about the assassination of JFK...this was about 1:00 or so in the afternoon. I remember my teacher crying. All the kids could think about was getting out of school early; everybody was cheering. Pretty stupid. Can't remember if the teacher yelled at us or not. We were only thinking about going home early. The thought of what really happened never entered our minds, until many years later.
Les
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I agree whith what your saying but she can handle restless kids its the fact of just no respect probably because it happend 60 years ago they dont register it as real what i was saying was at the minuite the youth of today understand the impact 9/11 has had on everything in our world, kids born next year when they get to school probably wont find 9/11 upseting as we all do now
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"As good example, US doesn't want to have their troops trialed in international court, but yet they want to act like world police and convict foreigners on their country and by their laws, without other countries involvement."
Only popsicle countries who know they will never have to do anything significant on the world stage support this 3rd world whining court. They always come asking for the USA to do all the tough work. Thats why the USA is "like world police". However I must admit most of the UN peacekeeper bluehat amazinhunks do wonders for the local prostitutes and bars while making outstanding hostages and human shields. Thats pretty much what all of them did in my country. Why would any of the degenerate criminal troublemaker countries ever want to make legal trouble for them when the UN peacekeepers are such an economic and political windfall to these regimes.
The UN has recently become perhaps the most useless whining collection of gutless rutabagas in history. All they can do is complain about world problems, demand US money and military power while all the time blaming everything on America.
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"US citizens doesn't have much power in politics, they are following the politicians like sheeps follows the herd.
This is to say that I'm faulting the politicians and media."
Ooh and I'm sure all the enlightened pussified post war european socialist people's republics just give every citizen sooo much power. Just how many laws have you personally authored in Finland? Let me know... :rolleyes:
Don't critize the USA, who knows there might a problem in your part of the world one day. I'm sure the UN will be glad to hear your woes - but be honest to yourself who will really be there to help?
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I don't think the ragheads which flew the planes and murdered Americans realized anything but the brainwashing they received from their "leaders" that we, the US of A is the "Great Satan" - evil leader and cause of all bad in the world and must be destroyed at all costs. They have warped a peaceful religion to back this agenda. They start the brainwashing at a very early age so it sticks and sticks well.
And their "leaders" LEADERS have their own agenda - to advance their own financial gain and power at the expense of America.
Do you really think they, the puppet masters of the terror movement give a rats bellybutton about anyone/anything in this world other than themselves?
9/11/2001 was an act of war. A chickenshit variant, but an act of war which has opened the door for the world'strongest military to hunt these rats down and exterminate them in their holes, with or without our "allies" approval. It's us or them - I vote them...
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To say the US was attacked is an understatement. When the attacks hit the WORLD Trade Center. The whole world was attacked.
I also agree that Flags on CARS and clothing have NO measure in Patriotism.
Karaya2
PS - Kids SHOULDN'T have to form an opinion like this in first place. Hatred shouldn't that young or even NOT AT ALL. If they are in grade school, they couldn't even define the word let alone pass judgement.
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Grunherz - at least the UN forces in the Balkans tried to keep the peace between three communities hell bent on murdering each other(with tied hands, I might add). They went to a country hundreds of miles from home and some of them died. And they still die today, while clearing mines.
What did you do? You ran away and continue to pour scorn from the cheap seats. Congratulations.
Have you heard of the UN involvement in East Timor, BTW?
You mention UN troops using prostitutes and bars. What do you think happens when ANY ship pulls into port from ANY navy, including the good 'ol USA? Where do you think they go? To church? Your argument is ridiculous.
Eagler - your continued use of 'raghead' as a term of ethnicity should be grounds to get you kicked off this board, IMO. It's not even accurate.
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I read about East Timor 12 years ago when 100,000 people were slaughtered. My sis worked at a large newspaper in the area. She wanted to write about BUT they wouldn't let her.
Karaya2
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Eagler - your continued use of 'raghead' as a term of ethnicity should be grounds to get you kicked off this board, IMO. It's not even accurate.
how about shaved ragheads - as from the video/pictures they looked like they took a bath and a shower before murdering our citizens
you have seen the latest JazzTV video right - with these morons sitting around in their raghead garb talking about the attacks???
If they don't want me to call them a raghead, they have two choices:
take the rag off their head
or
stop killing American citizens
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This is the precise attitude conveyed to the rest of the world.
Karaya2
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
This is the precise attitude conveyed to the rest of the world.
Karaya2
Good
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Far from a compliment.
K2
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Far from a compliment.
K2
Really, are you sure ? :)
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Good and bad I defined these terms
Quite clear no doubt somehow
Ah but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
Bob Dylan
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I'm also around your age Saur, and in college...
There's only two things about this country I love... the constitution and the bill of rights..
but love for this country? nah... unless you love a crooked federal government.
-SW
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Good and bad I defined these terms
Quite clear no doubt somehow
Ah but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
Bob Dylan
Yeah but did he write that when he was "older then" :P
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They always come asking for the USA to do all the tough work.
Isn't USA the one asking for support from other countries?
Like from puppet Blair?
Wasn't it USA who wanted to attack Iraqis, do the tough job without asking?
Who did wan't to do the tough job in Kosovo?
I don't see your point here about asking to do the tough job.
Why can't I critize USA?
You talk about socialistic people, but yet you deny other people their freedom of speech and classify critizing bad - just like they tend to do in socialistic and fasistic countries.
The "Freedom" americans talk about, doesn't seem that much freedom after all... "be with us, or be against us"
I bet you would look in an odd way at any fellow american who would come to critize in certain way..
Eagler,
Whos against the war should be declared upon?
Most of the hijackers were from saudi-arabia and egypt, but do I see them attacked? no...
Instead the war is directed to Afganistan and Iraq
Not that I would mind bad about getting rid of Talibans or Saddam... why wasn't Saddam overthrown already in the gulf war? would of saved lot of trouble
Gulf War and Kosovo just represents well how American politicians only cares after mowing down certain areas and then leaving before the war gets so serious that they would get too big casualties.
Of course no support is given afterwards for the areas, the task is given to UN (and of course USA is in debt to UN and not willing to pay it off)
Hopefully Afganistan will show that USA has learned something from the past, what they did wrong in Afganistan in 80's and in Iraq and Kosovo - leaving before finishing the deal, just there for their own benefit.
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1964 Udie.
Maybe the best lyric ever:
Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
Half-cracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull, I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, thought, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My existence led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.
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Bob Dylan- my generation's Eminem.
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Yer an idiot Fishu. The Gulf War was not about Iraq, it was about Kuwait. Once we had them pushed out of Kuwait, the Gulf War was no longer labelled Desert Storm. It became Desert Shield, defending and maintaining Kuwait's borders from Iraq. We finished what we set out to do, get Iraqis out of Kuwait.
It had nothing to do with going to war against Iraq or Saddam.
Now, we are at war with nations who harbor terrorists. It doesn't matter where they came from, it matters what nations support them.
Wonder how much support we would of had in 1991 to go in and get Saddam... wonder how much support we would have now... oh, I know.. very little either way.
-SW
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It is very interesting to hear this perspective from current college undergrads. Although I cannot agree with everything you have written, I am heartened that there are some like you that, while certainly a minority, can recognize the left-wing, systematic attack on American culture for what it is.
When I was an undergrad, in the mid-80s, I was shocked by the extreme left's systematic attack on our way of life and what I had been brought up to believe were common American values. When I was in law school in the mid-90s, the influence of the far left was even more evident.
I am a Midwesterner, but as a grad student and now as a laywer, I have spent a fair amount of time in and around the Bay Area. I would be surprised if the average Iraqi hates America more than the average Berkeley student or professor. It is nauseating to see such hate for the very system that allows those folks to spew their anti-America vitriol.
Perhaps the two most effective prongs of the left's attack have been "multiculturalism" and "political correctness."
"Multiculturalism" is, almost by definition, anti-American. Let's do away with the melting pot. Instead, let's encourage everyone to celebrate the culture of their ancestors, to the exclusion of celebrating their American heritage.
A necessary component of multiculturalism is giving people reasons to reject American culture and heritage. How do we do that? Let's paint patriots like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as racists and bigots, unworthy of respect, let along status as cultural icons. Let's teach kids in school in their "native" language, rather than insisting that they learn English. Let's entertain notions like reprations. Let's make Americans feel forever guilty about settling the continent. Let's invent holidays like Kwanza. There are many other examples, as I'm sure you're aware. Has American had a spotless history? Are its founders without blemish? Of course not, but neither are the histories and historical actors of whichever non-American culture the leftists would have you embrace. That inconvient fact is not surprisingly absent from the multiculturalist propaganda.
"Political correctness" is a pathetic mantra that has given rise to a culture of victimhood. People now feel entitled--no, obligated--to take offense at almost everything. We would much rather avoid possibly offending someone than to speak the obvious truth. A culture that avoids the truth is a culture that is in decay.
Of course, what is the truth? Another fundamental component of the leftist attack is moral relativism. It is easy to justify any position, no matter how extreme it may seem at first blush, if nothing is absolutely right or wrong. There are countless examples of prevailing social mores that have been wrought by moral relativism that should be repugnant to anyone with any attachment to reality. There may be no better and well-known example than that propagated by organizations like PETA. In a country where we routinely perform third-term abortions and are contemplating legalizing euthanasia (it is only a matter of time), the lives of animals are commonly considered as, if not more, valuable than the lives of humans.
Since I first became cognizant of the extreme left's attack in the mid-1980's, I have seen things get consistently worse. Indeed, those on the extreme left will not rest until everyone thinks, says, and acts exactly as they deem acceptable. I mourn the loss of the country, culture, and heritage that my six-month old son will not inherit.
- JNOV
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The "extreme left" is no more dangerous than the "extreme right". I'm seeing a lot of attacking here with little or no substance other than the usual suspects... PC, Multicultural, Morals.. anyone disagreeing with your view is wrong and we are going down the drain.
BS.
PC may have gone too far, but it was extremely necessary in its inception. Opportunities have been created and people have increased their acceptance of things that were unthinkable 30 years ago. All due to PC.
Multiculturalism.... How long has the St. Patricks day parade been held in Chicago and New York? The Chinese New Year in San Francisco? St Josephs celebration in New York? When the "extreme right" attacks multiculturalism, it attacks Kwanza, Black History Month, Cinco de Mayo. Makes you wonder which "cultures" are American.
Morals are Morals. If it's legal and I think it's moral then blow it out your ass. Morals are personal issues that the extreme right wants to make into restrictive laws. All the while trying to get government off THEIR backs.
Saurdukar - A little minor revolt is as normal as hell in college. It has been happening for generations. Use your brain to counter the arguments and try not to take it too personally. We all grow up. Remember Liberals are just Radicals with kids and a mortgage.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Saurdukar - A little minor revolt is as normal as hell in college.
Don't forget to read some Chomsky, he'll give your ego an intelectual hand job, and tell you how smart you are if you agree with him. It's facninating.
PS: Multi-culturalism is one of the most
American things ever in my opinion. Look at how well the puritans "melted" when they came over. "Do what you will, but don't do it around me" seems to be the prevailing mindset to many of the settlements of the time. And, although I have no evidence of a direct corelation, we see some of the same things in how our neighborhoods are set up. Obviously, like anything else, multiculturealism can be overdone with harmfull effects. However there is nothing wrong with the basic concept IMO.
-Sikboy
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MT:
You at once mischaracterized and failed to adress my post, with just a touch of discrediting indignation. Very nice. Maybe the wrong one of us is a lawyer (although, I must confess, I've never seen the phrase "blow it out your ass" in a brief).
- JNOV
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Once we had them pushed out of Kuwait, the Gulf War was no longer labelled Desert Storm. It became Desert Shield, defending and maintaining Kuwait's borders from Iraq.
Incorrect. Desert Shield was first. It was the defense of Saudi and the build up of troops. The came Dester Storm, the kicking of Sadam's ass.
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Desert Shield was in place when we left...
It was probably Desert something else before the Storm... but Shield was after Iraqis had been routed.. atleast that's how I remember it.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Desert Shield was in place when we left...
It was probably Desert something else before the Storm... but Shield was after Iraqis had been routed.. atleast that's how I remember it.
-SW
here's a chronology from the USCG
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/DesertChron.html
[edit]here's one from the US Army. It's more interesting lol
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/CHRONOS/intro.htm
-Sik
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Um Shield protected Saudi Arabia, sorry
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/desert_shield.htm
Karaya2
After posting: Sikboy. Right on the money.
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Sikboy, when Desert Storm ended didn't they change to a new operation? I distinctly remember it going Desert Storm, then after that there was something for the defense of Kuwait.
Masher, I was wrong... so sowwy, won't happen again mastah.
-SW
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Wulfey,
I don't think they renamed it dude. I knew right off of the bat that Shield came before Storm. I don't believe it was named. Let me do some research bro.
I do want to be the Massa. Wulfe
Just putting facts on here.
Karaya2
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What MidnightTarget said.
If someone comes armed with facts and figures and you have none yourself, maybe it is time to investigate fully what it is that you believe.
Oh, but I forgot, we shouldn't ever question ourselves.
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Just seemed very aggressive to me. Admittedly, I did try to do research to see if I was right after I posted to Thrawn.
I didn't find anything, but I didn't think of checking the mil sites either. Duh!
If you find out what it was called, if anything, please post it. Thanks in advance.
If there was no followup operation to Shield/Storm, then it just may be my delirium kicking in. :)
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Sikboy, when Desert Storm ended didn't they change to a new operation? I distinctly remember it going Desert Storm, then after that there was something for the defense of Kuwait.
-SW
I couldn't find anything in there. But it is surely possible that we gave our presense in the region a name. I bet Turmor knows, but he's probably still got me in his killfile lol.
-Sik
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
There may be no better and well-known example than that propagated by organizations like PETA. In a country where we routinely perform third-term abortions and are contemplating legalizing euthanasia (it is only a matter of time), the lives of animals are commonly considered as, if not more, valuable than the lives of humans.
- JNOV
HERE HERE!! Once we abort all the fetuses and euthanize everyone over 65 there will be more room for the animals. BTW- It's commendable you're an attorney, but here it doesn't mean all that much. I would deny it if I were you. :)
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Wow, I argue with Animal before bed and wake up to 40 posts...
1.) Eagler - I think I share your mindset 100% when it comes to this matter simply by reading your posts. Im also willing to bet $$ that youre a military man. No "educated" civilian could possibily think so clearly.
2.) Elf - The Kiwi issue is in response to Vulcans post. Whatever your talking about isnt being taught. :)
3.) Thrawn and Leslie - I like to think I argued against his points rather well. There are four or five older students (Both grad and undergrad) in the class and the older ones (30 years+) seemed to take serious offense to what this kid was saying. I understand that you can only take what I describe the event as, but this kid sounded like an Islamic whacko.
We even have 7 students from the region - Egypt, Turkey, and Lebannon. These students were foaming at the mouth to attack this kid. The Middle Easterners thought we Americans were CRAZY for not attacking sooner and with more force. They seemed to be more patriotic than those born of this soil.
As far as the professer goes, he is very, very good IMO. He is from Western Africa (forget which country) and brings alot of international views to his teachings. He had absolutely no control of the class after about 10 minutes - rare for him.
There are also 4 ex/current servicemen in the class - they/we also seemed to share the idea that what was coming out of this kid's mouth was rediculous.
We argued alot of his points into non-existance. One individual who crewed a Navy P-3 over the gulf explained that every piece of hardware that came up on his scope was of Soviet origin. This was news to this kid, as he had only minutes before stated that all the weaponry in the region was sold by America.
Another guy explained that he knew two officers in the Pentagon who were killed after this kid stated that the Pentagon was not a military target because it was filled with civilians.
There were so many simply idiotic arguments that he brought forth, and all that could be defended were - but alot of the psychobabble, which I STILL SEE as anti-American was simply unable to be comprehended.
When someone gets red in the face and starts to raise his voice about how American federal organizations use civilian buildings as shields and how we oppress the people of the world... blah blah blah...
His entire argument hinged on convincing us that "If we're all nice and see the error of our ways, this wont happen again." In other words, pull out of the middle east, stop exploiting, and taking advantage of other nations.
I see this as horseshit. It may be a sideeffect of my age/lack of experience/young "firepisser" mentality but my opinion is STILL that our response to these attacks should be absolutely devastating... diddly em... I will be the first one to march in.
I brought up the point that while we are focusing so much on "why" the attacks occured, we're not focusing enough on "why" the attacks occured.
Let me explain:
We know that the attacks are result of (Insert argument of choice here) but why did Bin Laden and Co. actually do it? Blowing up buildings seems a bit over the top because you dont like the decisions someone makes.
If you look at how wars are fought in the two cultures involved here, European/Western and Middle Eastern, whats the big difference? Geography.
If you go back and look at European conflicts from 900-1300AD and even earlier, whats the standard fair? You march an army to the gates of the castle controlling the territory of your opponent and state "Here are our demands, meet them by this time or we will attack."
If you look at Middle Eastern conflicts, how are they different? The attack first and then after they have sacked and taken the town/territory they contact the previous owner and state "Here are our demands, meet them or we wont be returning this land to you."
Why is this? Geography. You can sustain an army in Europe for weeks, maybe even months off the land - water, food, etc. In the desert/mountains of the Mid East, you cant do it. There is no water and nothing to live off of. You must attack first and negotiate for the return of the attacked area.
This behavior has filtered down and is even present today. Saddam, may his soul shortly burn in hell, exibited this very same behavior in Kuwait. What did he do? He invaded, stole everything, and buy time the Coalition (European mentality) saw that their demands were not being met (him leaving), they attacked.
I believe this is why we were simply "attacked" instead of "very stongly encouraged." We see it as an insult, but in fact, this is how people in that region of the world are used to fighting.
GRUNHERZ: Glad Im not the only one. I go to a school in North Eastern Pennsylvania. Strange mix of people here - but the university itself is about as Liberal as you can be (Liberal in the US Media sense, not its actual definition). From the "tone" of your post, I see you know exactly the type of person I am describing.
Oedipus: Your stormtrooper comment officially makes you a member of the peanut gallery. Kindly go sit down. IMHO, "stormtrooper" mentailty is close to what is needed here - most of the people I come into contact with hate America more than Bin Laden does. When you see students coming DAMN CLOSE to CELEBRATING the attacks, it makes you want to puke. So yes, SNUFF THEM OUT! diddly them too - send them over to Iraq before we turn it into a self-lighting, glass floored, parking lot.
In addition, do you speak of the Israeli "stormtroopers" in your statement as well? Do you look down upon their nationalism when they retaliate for attacks on their soveriengty? The only thing that will stop these attacks is to march into the area and say "enough is enough." In a situation like this, a single authority needs to be in control - do you want that authority to be "pro-western" or "anti-everything?"
As for attacking Iraq giving these people more of a reason to fly more "not-so-smart bombs" into buildings, I agree. But in a situation like this, sacrifices need to be made. If violence is the only thing these people understand and respect, I say give it to them. Anyone who doesnt see further losses in this "forever war" is fooling themselves.
More attacks will be made, more people will die. But HOW MANY MORE LIVES LOST will it take for most people take a step back and say what they should have said A YEAR AGO!?!?!
"...Hey... wait a minute... this is roadkill!!!"
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What serves America's interest is best for America.
If the billions in foreign aid and the staunch defense of our so-called allies serves our best interests, as an American, I'm ok with that.
If other nations don't like it, then don't dance with us. Don't trade with us, don't take our foriegn aid and don't call us when Sadaam or some other flake knocks on your door and chops your head off.
As for american citizens who enjoy the freedoms and prosperity of this nation, yet feel the need to bash her, move on down the road. This polly anna viewpoint of this is not fair or that shouldn't happen is laughable.
I can assure you of one thing....those of you who are young and still in college will someday realize that justice has very little to do with the reality of the day. I'm not defending that truth, but I won't ever deny it's bearing on all of us, irregardless of what nation we call home.
The world is not fair, life is not fair and the sooner some of you realize that fact, the happier you will be.
Balance and it's pursuit is what we all seek everyday of our lives and at every level. Some find it, some abuse it and some never see it at all.
Getting off you bellybutton and making a difference for your own nation brings change....passing gas on this board just shows your bellybutton imo.
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As long as 2 human being occupy Planet Earth, there will be conflict. That is a sad reality.
K2
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:::applause for Rude:::
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1.) Eagler - I think I share your mindset 100% when it comes to this matter simply by reading your posts. Im also willing to bet $$ that youre a military man. No "educated" civilian could possibily think so clearly.
It is dangerous to agree with me on this board, makes you a target for the left :)
Nope, not a military man, must make me an "educated" civilian -
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I'm in my last semester of college. Obviously today in one of my classes, Middle East (Political Science major), we discussed the attacks.
During this discussion, I was appauled at some of the, as I saw it, "Anti-American" viewpoints.
There was one individual in particular who came armed to the teeth with facts and figures and rhetoric claiming that we brought this upon ourselves.
My problem here is not necessarily with this person, whose name I do not even know, but the fact that alot of the younger students seemed to agree with him.
....
I yield to you:
(a) he was a plant. It wouldn't be the first time a professor pulled that in order to stimulate discussion. Your next class session should be interesting.
(b) if he was citing facts and figures, you should challenge him to cite his sources. Then go find those sources and verify their veracity.
(c) when I was in college (late-80's) the big deal was apartheid in South Africa. Everyone was shouting about equal rights. What they apparently failed to grasp was the concept that we would be meddling in another country's affairs. Their presumption was that, as Americans, it was our responsibility to do dabble in another country's politics in order to right a perceived injustice. But nobody seemed to care about the Taliban and its treatment of women, or its stifling of intellectual thought. As far as they knew, the Taliban were on our side because we had supplied the mujahadeen with Sidewinders. It was about as short-sighted as the discussion in my Anthropology class that put forth the opinion that the pygmies of Africa were backwards and underdeveloped just because they had no industry, no modern machinery, and relied on the jungle for their basic needs.
(d) most students will be against the government for the same reason they rail against the university and their parents .... until they graduate and have to go find a job. There's nothing like a corporate employee policy tied to a paycheck to force conformance.
(e) there's a difference between hating the government and hating the country. The seeds of WW2 were sown in WW1 when foreign policy levied overly harsh penalties against Germany. A persistent pattern of foreign policy failures led to the situation in Vietnam from 1964 to 1975. It can be said that 'Nam happened because of Hull's failure to support French troops fighting agains the Japanese there prior to the US's involvement in WW2. A lot of people hated the government during 'Nam, but those same people loved this country enough that they demonstrated against the politicians.
(f) you can hate a war, but don't hate the warriors that are sent to fight it. You can hate terrorism. Terrorists are not warriors. They are criminals. You may want to mention this in the class and see what kind of response you get. That would give you a better idea of which side of the fence your classmates are standing.
(g) America should invade New Zealand so we can run the Eco-Challenge without the messy passport process!
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Yer an idiot Fishu. The Gulf War was not about Iraq, it was about Kuwait. Once we had them pushed out of Kuwait, the Gulf War was no longer labelled Desert Storm. It became Desert Shield, defending and maintaining Kuwait's borders from Iraq. We finished what we set out to do, get Iraqis out of Kuwait.
It had nothing to do with going to war against Iraq or Saddam.
As I see it, US went to war with Iraqi forces and entered Iraq in order to get it's leader drop the war.
So if that isn't about war against Iraq and Saddam, then what is?!
"border skirmish" huh?
American forces entered in Iraq, definately didn't just drive them couple kilometers from the border and then ask from Saddam if hes kind enough to sign a peace treaty and be subjected to embargo and other restrictions.
You sure have funny way of viewing wars, AKSWulfe.
Calling me idiot only proves me right.
With Gulf War I refer to the whole war in Iraq-Kuwait area.
Whats so idiotic in that?
Clearly americans had the opportunity to go in and take out Saddam, just like that one general wanted to, but politicians - american politicians - had other thoughts..
..or, maybe they just left Saddam in power to have an excuse in the future to have another war?
They were already in Iraq.. that isn't anymore "defend kuwait" operation.
Sure it might be aggressive pre-emptive defensive operation, but that falls to attacking and attack took place in Iraq soil.
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The operation was not to get Saddam out of power. Just because fighting is in the country, it doesn't mean we were there to defeat it.
That wasn't the plan in 'Nam. Plan was to keep the N Vietnamese out of the South. But we crossed the line plenty of times.
The plan in Iraq/Kuwait was to get Saddam out of Kuwait. End of story.
Maybe you should actually read up on why the Gulf War happened rather than throw in second hand conjecture?
"Calling me idiot only proves me right."
No, not even your own words prove you right.
"With Gulf War I refer to the whole war in Iraq-Kuwait area. "
The Gulf War was to get Saddam and his forces out of Kuwait. Beyond that, you are inventing things.
"Clearly americans had the opportunity to go in and take out Saddam, just like that one general wanted to, but politicians - american politicians - had other thoughts..
..or, maybe they just left Saddam in power to have an excuse in the future to have another war?
They were already in Iraq.. that isn't anymore "defend kuwait" operation.
Sure it might be aggressive pre-emptive defensive operation, but that falls to attacking and attack took place in Iraq soil."
We could of gone in and taken out Saddam, at that point in time it wasn't thought necessary. I mean, UN weapons inspections, abiding to our requests.. he did that. Then he stopped. Now we see there is no reasoning, he must be taken out.
Yeah, we went into Iraq... not with the intent of invading, destroying and conquering.
But, like I said.. you should read up on why the Gulf War was fought. Not why you think it was fought, and not what you think it was.
Of course, it's easy to second guess from the side lines with very little to no information.
-SW
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Originally posted by Fishu
Clearly americans had the opportunity to go in and take out Saddam, just like that one general wanted to, but politicians - american politicians - had other thoughts..
Exactly how clear was it again? Not very. I know that a lot of us like to play monday morning QB on this. A LOT of people in the US believe that it was a huge mistake to not take Sadam out, and maybe it was. However, at the time it was not at all clear that we had the opportunity to do so. The coalition was formed under the pretense that the goal was getting Iraq out of Kuwait. We used Arab bases and had Arab support based on this. Had we changed the war aims, what are the odds that we would have kept the coalition in place? What are the odds that our Arab Allies would have cooperated as we unseated an Arab government, even one such as Sadam? How many of our European allies would have stayed on board had we changed the war aims? President Bush played it safe. In retrospect we can see that getting rid of Sadam would have been a great help to the Iraqi people, and would have removed a thorn in the side from US Foreign Policy. But back in Dec 1990, walking up to Baghdad was not clearly the best option.
-Sikboy
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Well, that's all well and good, but what do today's college students care about Desert Shield/Storm? That was, like, 10 years ago, dude. That's ancient history! :p
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Thankyou Rude, this is a perfect example of what I was pointing out about the internal US attitude to your external actions. Fair enough the USA does a toejamload for some countries, and fair enough the USA needs to look after its own interests.
But... if other (nutcase) nations don't like it you are now seeing their alternative response on your home soil. And there seems to be an abundance of nutcase nations in the world these days.
Originally posted by Rude
If other nations don't like it, then don't dance with us. Don't trade with us, don't take our foriegn aid and don't call us when Sadaam or some other flake knocks on your door and chops your head off.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
But... if other (nutcase) nations don't like it you are now seeing their alternative response on your home soil. And there seems to be an abundance of nutcase nations in the world these days.
What Nation might that be?
-Sikboy
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Regarding UN rutabagas:
Somebody said that the UN rutabagas just tried to keep the peace between the two warring sides...
Well this is 100% true. They tried to keep the left wing eurotrash popsicle intellectual socialist gutless version of peace. The kind of peace that that was kept at Munich in 1938. They came into Croatia just when our forces stabilzed the Serbian incursions and began to push them back. By this time 30% of our territory was occupied and being clensed. The UN cowards then just did nothing. They were satisfied because they saw it as peace. I dont see it as peace when 30% of your country was occupied and you werent allowed to defend yourself or take it back.
Honestly how many of you leftists would be happy if 30% of your country was invaded by somebody and some UN bluehat rutabagas did nothing but get in the way?
At least they got in the way in Croatia. In bosnia their cowardice and usless nature reached an extreme. First of all they completly abandoned Sarajevo leading to a years long seige not seen since Leningrad in WW2.
Then they set up so called safe areas, luring tens of thousands of refugess into them. These widely advertised safe areas were hailed as edens of international safety and protection. Yep they were probably the safet place for Serbian armies. The Serbian army just showed up and rounded up all the men and boys, put them on busses and took them to..... Geneva? Thousands of Bosnians were slaughtered in one incident while the UN toy soldiers watched them being taken away. All of this was even captured on video. The UN rutabagas did nothing. In fact they were degenerate and despicable in their behavior that they ran over some of the crowds in their APCs when running away in confusion( Afraid popsicle Cars in UN speak ).
Then the UN rutabagas actually became good at "protecting" something. Yep they became excelent volunteer night watchmen at Serbian ammo dumps and radar sites. They were so dedicated to their work they even shackled themselves to the buidings. Commendable! :rolleyes:
Thankfully those innocent people did not ulitimately die in vain. The USA saw this discrace and along with Britain actually took real action. Real action of the sort not likely to be taken by UN rutabagas.
The US army helped the Croatioan army plan an offensive in 1995 which combined with heavy US airstrikes cleared most of the last Serb occupied zones. Then our forces swept into bosnia linking with our Bosnian allies and swep the invaders away. Further airstrikes around Sarajevo and US ( not popsicle UN) diplomatic action helped secure a more reasonable concluion.
The UN peacekeepers are useless, not neccesarily because the individuals are unworthy but because they as a group are unwilling to risk death. And an armed force unwilling to face possible death in accomplishing a mission is useless. They are rutabagas. Thats why it takes USA to do anything, Americans will fight. And dont any of you come heretelling me of how many UN bluehats were killed by random landmines and snipers or were taken hostage, that only proves they were there. How many were killed in actuall battle?
They are useless and only serve to make the self righteus UN popsicle meddling guilt ridden diplomats feel better.
The UN should only be used to give out food and aid and deal with women, childeren and old men. They have amply proven their inabilty to deal with dangerous men.
Regarding leftist degenerates:
They are simply wrong, just as the KKK is wrong. The difference is not many KKK grand dragons or whatever they call themselves have TV shows and tenure at Harvard.
Noam Chomsky is an idiot. He solves all the worlds problems from the precarious position of his classrom - braving badly written student papers and the occasional AC system breakdown. His standard answer is "blame the USA" and "blame the west". He is pathetic. I suppose he is appealing to leftist youth because he gives them simplistic childish solutions they can easily understand and accept - primarily because it fits in with their naive utopian ideas.
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Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
MT:
You at once mischaracterized and failed to adress my post, with just a touch of discrediting indignation. Very nice. Maybe the wrong one of us is a lawyer (although, I must confess, I've never seen the phrase "blow it out your ass" in a brief).
- JNOV
Why thank you sir.
Actually I had no intention of directly addressing your post, your post just gave me the little shove I needed to add my 2 cents. Consequently the "blow it out your ass" was not directed at you per se.
Upon further review though (I'm ready for football),
I think I addressed almost everything you wrote, and as to mischaracterizing, well maybe a little.
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Hmmm, not entirely untrue..... But the abundant use of the word UN rutabagas did not much for your argument. Especially since the majority of those rutabagas who went peacekeeping have more courage in their left toe than you in your entire etc..... It's not easy to take a stand against an superior enemy while you can only defend yourself with a blue helmet, rifle and nicely white spraypainted truck.
Of course f you were only referring to the leading figures in the UN I stand almost corrected, on the other hand, the UN and it's security Counsil are democratic institutions which means they listen to eachother etc. which takes time.
BTW, It seems you confuse the words leftist and UN quite often...
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Well I certainly feel that the UN leadership is at fault for the poor performance of UN "troops" in the field. I suppose its just like the Italians during WW2 - their leadership sucked.
As for confusing leftist and UN. I dont think im too far off the bat. Most of the UN seem quite happy to join radical leftistist in their foolish USA bashing.
The "UN rutabagas" is entirely personal for me because I feel they betrayed and let down too many innocent people who believed the UN could help in my country. Im sure Rwandans, Somalis and others would not disagree too much with me here. so I really don't care what impact this might have on the perception of my argument.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well I certainly feel that the UN leadership is at fault for the poor performance of UN "troops" in the field. I suppose its just like the Italians during WW2 - their leadership sucked.
As for confusing leftist and UN. I dont think im too far off the bat. Most of the UN seem quite happy to join radical leftistist in their foolish USA bashing.
The "UN rutabagas" is entirely personal for me because I feel they betrayed and let down too many innocent people who believed the UN could help in my country. Im sure Rwandans, Somalis and others would not disagree too much with me here. so I really don't care what impact this might have on the perception of my argument.
Just what is your "country" GRun? Aren't you being multicultural?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Thankyou Rude, this is a perfect example of what I was pointing out about the internal US attitude to your external actions. Fair enough the USA does a toejamload for some countries, and fair enough the USA needs to look after its own interests.
But... if other (nutcase) nations don't like it you are now seeing their alternative response on your home soil. And there seems to be an abundance of nutcase nations in the world these days.
You are correct and I don't have a problem with how another nation might respond to the USA....what I do have a problem with, is other nations who accept our help, be it monetary or otherwise and then back off when the going gets tough or more commonly of late, lack the fortitude to stand up for what is right.
Trust me on this one....the United States is more than capable of taking care of itself....we do not need anymore allies like the one's we've had.
The concept of good and evil have existed since the beginning....the abilility to decern the difference requires slightly more of us all, along with strength of character to defeat it. The UN is a non-entity in world affairs today...they resemble a bank clearing house more than the institution for which it was originally designed.
Sorry for ramblin...nothing I say here will change a thing, so I'm going to go home now and fly....it's squadnight for the 13th:)
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My country? Obviously Croatia or the old Yugoslavia when I speak of UN bluehat degenerate rutabagas.
What was your point?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
My country? Obviously Croatia or the old Yugoslavia when I speak of UN bluehat degenerate rutabagas.
What was your point?
That would make you a Croatian American? NM, if you don't get it I don't want to go into it. Read up.
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GRUNHERZ:
He is directing you to my earlier post (and his response thereto) in which I desribed multiculturalism as part of the extreme left's one-two combination to "knock out" America. You may want to sit this one out, though. My post is long and not a very good read, and it's never a good idea to fight a shark in the water.
- JNOV
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Youre not gonna get me with that PC mulitculti crap. I was born in Croatia and lived there as a kid, I speak the language and like our food and culture. But I'm an American. I dont doubt for a second that a leftist like you is unable to understand that through your PC colered world.
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LOL, you flatter me LoneStar.
But I already proved my point Grun. You identify with Croatia, and that is just fine with me. You can do that without reducing your ability to be an American one iota.
I certainly hope you don't want to reserve that right all to yourself. I'm sure there are Croatian Americans that enjoy the food and culture of Croatia even though they were born here in America. Just as there are Italian Americans, Irish Americans and African Americans who would like to celebrate their ancestory and culture. See, we do agree. :p
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Why the hell wouldnt I identify with croatia its my old country and my ancestory.
The problem would be if I all of a sudden demanded that Croatian culture be heavily instructed at US schools, or that they hire Croatian sensitive teachers, that they instruct in Croatian, that the emphasize Croatian accomplishments etc. Thats where multi crap becomes an issue.
Maybe you wanna see me as some sort of racist Nazi zealot, but I have no problem with other cultures or people. I like mexican food, like music from all over the world, I think Halle Berry is amazing, and have friends from all races and always had. I did grow up in a "multicultural" state, we had money with two languages, a country with Chatholics, Eastern Orthodox, Moslems, Jews and other Christians. I liked the way it was, my best friend (we were practically like brothers) was a moslem and and one of my cousins is Serbian. I had Serb neighbors, Bosnian family friends who summered with us and all sorts of foreign tourists around me growing up. So there is nothing you PC types can teach me about multiculturalism. I lived it in a way thats beyond your theoretical classroom utopianism.
And I saw it destroyed. Now read this carefully and remembver it every time I lash out against the 1990s US type multiculturalism.
All of my hatred for this US type multiculti comes from the fact that my way of life there was destroyed by race politics. We all pretty much got allong well until people began the race politics. The same sort of race politics are emeriging in the USA. I honestly fear that this will only lead to the same sort of disaster in trhe US. If you dont belive me just wait for some really bad economic times.
The people who demand the destruction of a common US culture and a US language to be replaced by their own are the same as the race politicans who destroyed my country. Be careful about them.
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Tell that to the volunteer firefighters from NZ and Aussie who are over there helping fight them big arse fires you guys have on a regular basis.
Tell that to SAS guys from NZ, Aussie, and the UK who were in Afghanistan checking everything out before the US arrived there in force.
Its like the big kid in neighbourhood, one day when all the little runts gang up on you then you find who your real friends are.
Originally posted by Rude
Trust me on this one....the United States is more than capable of taking care of itself....we do not need anymore allies like the one's we've had.
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Oh well, I suppose I could just as well go to talk with Iraqis about USA being on the good side and Iraqis being the evil side...
Would probably end up with similar level of discussing.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Oh well, I suppose I could just as well go to talk with Iraqis about USA being on the good side and Iraqis being the evil side...
Would probably end up with similar level of discussing.
Especially if you are unable to follow up your contentions with evidence.
-Sikboy
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GRUNHERZ:
That's a great story; it really warms my heart to read it. It is quite remarkable to me that, given your relatively short stay in this country, you have embraced the American culture and heritage that so many whose families have been here for genrerations are working so hard to destroy. It is also telling that you understand so naturally what proponents of "multiculturalism" pretend not to: That nothwithstanding its benign name, "multiculturalism" is not merely about celebrating the culture of one's ancestors (that was happening, and rightfully so, for generations before anyone coined the term). Indeed, that is only part of the story, albeit the part that proponents of multiculturalism point to in its defense. If "multiculturalism" were no more than that, I doubt any would find it objectionable. What multiculturalism is really about, however, is using people's "native" cultures as tools to undermine, weaken, and ultimately replace our common American heritage.
In response to something MT mentioned earlier (and at the risk of completely running away with this thread), I believe that the reason that those opposed to "multiculturalism" criticize things like "Kwanzaa," as opposed to, say, the Chicago St. Patrick's Day Parade, is because, unlike the latter, the former seeks to instill principles of separation and divisiveness, to replace our common American culture with another (in the case of Kwanzaa, a universal "African" culture). For example, consider the following from a description of Kwanzaa:
We are Africans.
Recognizing yourself as an African is recognizing your status as a world citizen. When you recognize yourself as an African you realize that you sprang from the loins of the people who were the first to grow food, build houses, perform mathematical equations, perform feats of engineering, speak an intelligible language, and communicate using written symbols.
When you recognize yourself as an African you recognize that your are the Image of the man or woman God created whom God said was "good": The man or woman with thick lips, wide nostrils, coarse hair, and dark, brown skin. This Is African. This is the original man. To be African is to be beautiful.
And the "official poem of Kwanzaa":
For so long I've been searching
for too long I've been searching
Never was taught much about the
Homeland
The Information I received was
always secondhand and
My soul has been yearning
while my memory has been
learning
How to deal with the vulture
that's been robbing me of
my culture
In my heart there's a song
since KWANZAA came along
KWANZAA. a seven day
cultural celebration
that unites African-American
brothers and sisters
In this once strange and foreign nation
Didn't come to America by way
of Ellis Island
We arrived in slave ships that
Took us from our African Homeland
The vultures went through great
pains to separate us from the
knowledge of our historical roots
and treated us like a pair of old
worn boots
KWANZAA, African-American brothers
and sisters uniting to hold on,
to the culture I've been searching
for for so long ... for too long.
(quotations from http://www.ritesofpassage.org/kwanza-b.htm)
I've been to the St. Patty's Day Parade in Chicago. There was a lot of green beer and more than a few bad renditions of "Danny Boy," but I didn't see or hear anything akin to that. :rolleyes:
Although Kwanzaa's message, like most that are perversely seductive, contains elements of truth, it is ultimately unbalanced and destructive. For instance, nowhere does it convey the evils of Black America's "African" heritage (i.e., centuries of slave ownership, slave trade, and tribal warfare, etc.). Nor does it extoll or even recognize the obvious, highly material aspects of our American heritage and culture, such as the tremendous price this country paid (in blood, both Black and White) to eradicate slavery or the fact that the average Black American lives almost immeasurably better than his counterpart in Africa.
- JNOV
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Tell that to the volunteer firefighters from NZ and Aussie who are over there helping fight them big arse fires you guys have on a regular basis.
Tell that to SAS guys from NZ, Aussie, and the UK who were in Afghanistan checking everything out before the US arrived there in force.
Its like the big kid in neighbourhood, one day when all the little runts gang up on you then you find who your real friends are.
The aussies and relatives have been friends....I'm refering to the likes of France, Germany and such.
I apologize for painting with such a broad stroke.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Especially if you are unable to follow up your contentions with evidence.
-Sikboy
Oo... I really see hard evidence brought by the others!
I only see gang bang spirit here, not evidences to thing or another... :rolleyes:
American double stantards I presume.
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Grunherz - what part of 'Rules of Engagement' don't you understand? The troops of the UN had their hands tied.
Do you really believe British forces deployed there were too scared of getting killed to use force against the perpetrators of the ethnic cleansing? You're living in some fantasy world and looking for someone to blame for the actions of your countrymen. The British forces deployed in the Balkans during the war were itching to get involved militarily; the sense of frustration was enormous. It's a documented fact. Yet they were soldiers in a defined chain of command - they had their orders.
Do you really believe your Croatian, Bosnian Serb, Bosnian cowards would have stood up to the British Army? lol
You're fond of calling the UN troops, and therefore British troops, 'rutabagas' and 'cowards'. I suggest the real rutabagas and cowards were the ones doing the killing (including Croats) and those that ran away at the wars end to more comfortable areas of the world, instead of staying behind and helping to rebuild.
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Whatever it is they did pretty much nothing militarily useful till 1995 when the US and Brits helped us plan the summer "Storm" offensive.
While I agree with your boasting about UK military might and their obvious superiority to any Yogoslav force, what does that that have to do with the UN?
The UN rutabagas will not fight. Its that simple all they do is sit there, run over land mines and get taken hostage.
I propose that the UN only hand out food and diapers while leaving any military duto to actual armies - politically willing and
able to die.
And where do I blame the UN for ethnic cleansing? I should certainly know that was all our fault. But I do place blame on the UN rutabagas who deliberatly lured thousands of helpless refuges to so called "safe areas" then just stood by, watching, as supposedly incompetant serb army types just walked in took and killed everyone. That I blame UN rutabagas for.
Where was all their military bravado then. As for your precious rules of engagement what good are they if the exclude an open act of genocide as sufficient cause to open fire.
Tell me you Golly-geeded arrogant rich British who never had his home blown up. Tell me now!!!!!!!!!!!!! What good are they if their rules of engagement are so limited that even a new age holocaust before their very own eyes was not good enough.
Who in your family died in a war just a few years ago? Name one of your uncles who was never seen again after being abducted wounded from the Vukovar hospital? Was your mother nearly decapitated when a mortar landing in her yard simultanoisly destroying a swing bench your father had built by hand?
So tell you indignant shameful basatard, what good are they if they have ridiculous rules of engagement?
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//warning I've not read the whole thread (too lazy and it's in english ;)
I will appear out bound but each time I read the "Anti American" sentence I'm thinking of the "against the party" of former USSR :(
How an opinion can be Anti something ?
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The rules of engagement were ridiculous - that's my whole bloody point. They were ineffective and counter-productive. BUT it's not the fault of the troops who had to work with those rules - for god's sake, is it so hard for you to comprehend?! Because it's as clear as day to me.
To call those same troops cowards for obeying orders handed to them from high is a grave disservice and shows either gross stupidity or complete lack of knowledge of military affairs.
I was not boasting about the British army. I've never been one for machismo when talking about my country's armed forces - it's puerile and stupid. My point is that IF THE ROE HAD ALLOWED IT, the British army along with the other nations could have delivered a different outcome. And perhaps a better one.
...as supposedly incompetant serb army types just walked in took and killed everyone.
You don't have to be competent to kill unarmed civilians...
The dutch troops had their orders. With hindsight those orders were wrong. But hindsight is such a wonderful tool isn't it?
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Exactly my point stated in a more dispassionate manner. The UN peacekeepers are useless.
If their ROE are set up as they were then they are effectivley useles as was shown in the war.
Did any part of the Dutch orders deal with peacekeeping and preventing genocide?
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'Effectively useless' and 'cowardly rutabagas' are two entirely different terms.
I can see that and everyone reading this thread can see that. It's a shame that you can't.
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Take away my anger and we are saying the same thing.
Tell me again did the Dutch orders include a provision to prevent genocide?
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Take away my anger and we are saying the same thing.
No we are not. While we agree that the ROE were impossible, you maintain that the UN forces were 'cowardly rutabagas'. I still maintain they had their hands tied and their courage was unquestionable.
I'm not au fait with the exact orders the UN forces were given, but the report criticizing the Dutch contingent (Dutchbat) had this to say:
"Dutchbat was dispatched
-- on a mission with a very unclear mandate;
-- to a zone described as a 'safe area' although there was no clear definition of what that meant;
-- to keep the peace where there was no peace;
-- without obtaining in-depth information from the Canadian predecessors in the enclave;
-- without adequate training for this specific task in those specific circumstances;
-- virtually without military and political intelligence work to gauge the political and military intentions of the warring parties;
-- with misplaced confidence in the readiness to deploy air strikes if problems arose; and
-- without any clear strategy for leaving."
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GRUNHERZ, I'm afraid I can't put up with your irrationality and hate anymore. People honestly try to have reasonable discussions with you and you do nothing but spew worthless vitriol.
Congradualations, you just joined a very small select group of people, buh-bye.
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The United States needs to do something about this threat to our soveriegnty NOW.
Must have missed something in the news - what threat to US sovreignty? Sure you had a huge terrorist attack - but no threat to your sovreignty.
I say not argue about whether or not to go into Iraq... it should have been done a year ago. And as long as were there, lets "cleanse" the rest of the nations who oppose us. Dont bother with finding "evidence" of anti-American activity... anyone with half a brain knows who is behind this and who is not.
Mmm sounds like a new domino theory brewing... but who decides who is "anti-American" and who "opposes" you - what criteria do you use? I see you already don't need any evidence. :rolleyes: Perhaps it's to be based on how close together the leader's eyes are? Or heck - no reason needed - just because the country's there, eh? And is it just the US that's allowed to persue this policy? Or can China "cleanse the rest of the nations who oppose them" too? [that should have half the BBS foaming at the mouth ;)] How about Russia? Say - how about Iraq? This will happen again if measures are not taken swiftly. The response to 9/11/01 SHOULD have been blindingly swift and devastaing. These people need to be of the mindset that attacking America is insane... they knock over a few buildings? Why dont we go bomb a few diddlying cities. They bomb an embassy? Lets march into the guilty country.
That's the big problem with the "response" really - there IS NO guilty country. It's a multinational terror group. Most of the 9-11 crews were from Saudi Arabia - if that helps any. So technically, the US probably should have invaded Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, attempting to teach dead (in the case of the actual perpertrators) suicidal terrorists that attacking America is insane and will only result in them dying seems to me to be an enormous waste of time - they are suicide warriors, ergo they aren't afraid of dying. The best you can hope for in retaliation is moving them on, and going for a parity in innocent victim body counts (actually AFAIK the US slightly overstepped the mark in Afghanistan with 3,125 civilian deaths as the lowest estimate) as some sort of perverse "eye for an eye" feeling of revenge - on a country which, AFAIK none of the terrorists responsible actually came from. Although that fact is probably in the process of changing, I fear, now that the US has killed all those innocent Afghans. As the mahatma put it: "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."
And as for "They bomb an embassy? Lets march into the guilty country" - well lucky for all of us China doesn't feel that way. :D
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Originally posted by Fishu
Oo... I really see hard evidence brought by the others!
I only see gang bang spirit here, not evidences to thing or another... :rolleyes:
American double stantards I presume.
Although I'm not going to speak for what others have written here, I think I provided contentions with evidence. Perhaps you should read over my post again. Or, of course you could just play the Martyr if it makes you feel better.
-Sikboy
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Sikboy,
You're way out of content now.
Suddenly you think I'm supposed to play martyre....
Theres evidence back and forth, why do you think yours would be the right one?
Heck, I could write bunch of documents and claim those be the evidence or ask someone else to do it.. or just grab from some conspiracy theory site and use those as evidence, just as proof evidence.
You're just being ignorant.
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Fishu,
1st you said there was no evidence presented.
Then Sikboy pointed out that you were wrong because evidence was presented and to quit being a martyr.
Followed by your rebuttal that you are not a martyr, and that evidence has been presented on both sides.
Am I following this correctly?
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Sikboy,
Theres evidence back and forth, why do you think yours would be the right one?
Heck, I could write bunch of documents and claim those be the evidence or ask someone else to do it.. or just grab from some conspiracy theory site and use those as evidence, just as proof evidence.
You're just being ignorant.
I believe that my pov is the "right one" in general, because this is something that I have studied. Not in great detail mind you, but it is something that I've looked at in an academic environment before today. Specifically, I believe that my point of view is the "right one" because insterad of countering it at all, you withdrew from the discussion.
You could write a bunch of stuff and claim that it was true, at which point someone would ask you for verification. That's usually how I've seen a discussion go. If you want varification for any of my points with regard to the gulf war, please let me know and I will provide them.
Feel free to use conspiracy theory web sites for information and analysis. They are usually so fallicious that it's actually fun to see how many holes you can find. I believe that you treat these sites with the same contempt that I do however, so perhaps we should avoid that path.
How I'm being "ignorant" is beyond me. Unless there is a Finnish double standard of ingnorance.
-Sikboy
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Sikboy,
Actually you were the one who withdrew from the discussion in first place.
First of all, I don't know what the heck about you're wanting evidence.
You just hop in and whine about evidence...
Maybe I should ask Boroda... hes more into this kind of silly evidence discussion.
I've already had too much 'evidence' play with americans at the forums.
Americans are actually only ones who I have seen constantly requiring evidence at every corner..
When you bring some evidence, then usually next response is they don't buy it and want more... of course after even that, they still have doubts of it and want more or find some other things.
I suppose that must be because of the lawyer culture, many acts like lawyer when given the opportunity.
Deny everything as long as you can, since even evidence can't be fool proof.
With years of experience on this matter...
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Originally posted by -dead-
they are suicide warriors
No, they are criminals.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Actually you were the one who withdrew from the discussion in first place.
I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
First of all, I don't know what the heck about you're wanting evidence.
You just hop in and whine about evidence...
I'm simply trying to figure out if you have something to support your contention that we clearley had the opportunity to take out Saddam in 1991. That is the lone point of yours that I addressed.
Maybe I should ask Boroda... hes more into this kind of silly evidence discussion.
Maybe you should, Boroda and I have had some very good discussions on this board, and I respect his abilities.
I've already had too much 'evidence' play with americans at the forums.
Yes, it is preferable to say things without having and basis in fact.
I'm pretty sure that it's not a matter of being american any more than poor argumentation is a matter of being Finnish.
-Sikboy
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Sikboy,
During years of discussing in forums, I have come to the conclusion of the people demanding and arguing about evidence in the forums, are americans.
Just as much as 'poor argumentation' is matter of being Finnish matter.
Which I have noticed already long time ago;
In American forums argumentation is every day stuff
In Finnish forums I can't say I see much of argumentation wars and those few usually aren't long lasting nor that serious.
Of course I haven't made any big fact books of the matter, since it isn't something I'm interested to look at in professional manner.
It is just general observation over the years with half curiosity.
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Saur.....good post. Once Upon a Time, and far away I was a college student also. At that time...like many former and current college students we thought we just about knew it all....Hey! we're in College aren't we? Doesn't that make us smarter? LOL Then as you get older and actually experience life.......let's face it folks, when you're in College most haven't had a steady job, provided for a family etc. I realized AFTER I got out of College I knew nothing about what really transpires in the world of business and politics. Just as in back to school with Rodney Dangerfield, College can only prepare you for the theoretical world. The way it should be and the way it is are two separate entities. Most College Students of this day weren't around for the Viet Nam War, Korean War, or World War II. They see it on the Discovery Channel, or read about it in a book. I wasn't around for WWII, so I got the story from my parents and grandparents, they lived it. Experience has always been regarded as the best teacher. I agree with that statement. Certainly my college education helped me greatly, but after entering the job market experience was the great teacher, and by the way more valuable then my degree. So there are similarities between the job market, and the real world that one experiences after graduating college. College was valuable to say the least, but it didn't give anyone the tools to apply the knowledge that one has just acquired. That comes from experience. Look at job postings now.....4 years experience required.....along with the degree.
The same can be said about the view some of your college students spewed forth about why, and how the US was attacked on 9/11. Does it really matter why? No it doesn't....experience taught me that. What's important is THAT the US was attacked on 9/11/01. That's what counts. What counts is that 3,000 people, all innocent died because of radical view of the Muslim Religion. The Muslim religion doesn't teach Muslims to slam airplanes into buildings and kill innocent people. The Muslim and Christian religions are very similar in the view that killing is not the answer. There always has, and always will be someone, or a group of someones who will twist, bend, and alter the thinking of people to their point of view. History has proven that. And those most gullible are the misfortunate in life, and generally the uneducated. Again, after all, isn't History experience?
So Saudr....take heart! Nothing against College Students. I was one LOL a long time ago. Let's face it, generally College is the first time most students have been away from home for that length of time in their life. I've been there, I know. I also thought because I was attending and graduating College I knew more. I did...about Metalurgy and Chemistry. But I absolutely didn't really start to learn UNTIL I started experiencing life on my own. Now I was responsible, not my parents. I had to learn to survive in my field........and experience was and still is my greatest teacher. When those in College graduate.......History and experience will teach them also.......about politics, about the job market, and more about people in general. So.....those voices you heard spewing numbers and theory about how and why the US was attacked, were gotten some place else, they didn't formulate them, someone else did. And let's face it....there is a reason they're still called students. They're still learning...as am I. My only edge is that I'm older. And since I'm older experience has had the opportunity to teach me more. I've already walked down the path that you and they are walking. That doesn't make me wiser.........unless experience has taught me and I've learned the lessons that life has forced upon me.
Sorry for being so long winded :)
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I find myself angered because it seems to me that the "educated youth" (college students) of today are simply stupid.
wow ... what a news ! ... you didnt note that before ??
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I have been arguing for years that this country has no nationalism or culture. In a strange way, I believe that 9/11/01 helped to fix that. People came together not as blacks, whites, chritians, jews, etc, but as AMERICANS!
goood.... so now americans have nationalism ... wtg hehe germans had some as well around 1939-1945 hehe..... go ahead muhehe