Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fscott on March 16, 2001, 05:13:00 PM
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(http://corn555.tripod.com/speeds.jpg)
Anyone?
fscott
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Good question. I've often also wondered why the 109G-10 model is so dang fast. It's faster than the P51D across the board and between 10k-25k feet it's the fastest airplane in the arena. This just seems out of whack. I've never heard the 109 was that fast though I don't have any hard data to back that up with. Plus, it's got the best climb rate hands down. If anything, the 109G-10 should be the perked airplane! It's got a much better utility for the MA than the Ta152 except when you're buff busting at 30k and that's a pretty narrow role.
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G-10 requires lots of skill to fly, unlike a niki for example.
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SpitLead,
Late 109s were FAST!!! The G-10 we have is just before they went to the K-4 model, and the K-4 only has some minor cosmetic differences from our G-10.
Bf109K-4 had a max speed of 452mph.
Spitfire MkXIV had a max speed of 448mph at 27,000ft.
P-51B had a max speed of 440mph.
P-51D has a max speed of 437mph.
The controls on the P-51 remain a lot more balanced at high speed than the others, though. The 109 gets very heavy in both the aerilons and the elevators. The Spitfire remains light on the elevatorbut gets heavy on the aerilon (though not as heavy as the 109) and eventually sufferes reversed aeirlon action due to wing warping.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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And no, it doesn't take lots of skill to fly. More than the N1K2, yes, but not lots of skill.
C.202 takes lots of skill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Slower Bf109s also take more skill.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Ok Karnak, you just proved my point. The 109G-10 should be the perked plane. It's the fastest between 10k-25k (approx.) and has the best climb rate by far. What's the Ta-152 have the makes it the perked airplane? It's not speed or climbing. I'm with FScott on this one. Perk the 109G-10!
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Spitlead try flying a whole tour in G10 and then youll know why it isnt perked, Its very fast and climbs well as it did in Rl, but it has no handling when fast as it locks up, its strong points are very difficult to use compared to nikis UFOness, spits turning, or chogs weapons. The 30mm cannon I prefer is good but its very hard to hit with and has only 60 bullets giving barely 6 seconds of fire, the 13mm guns are useless, plus you always need to get within 200yds of target to kill with 30mm, 300yds is longrange extreme shot. Im not saying that it isnt one of the better planes in AH when flown well- but its really really hard to use correctly. Compare that to tempest which is faster that 109, climbs almost as well, turns much better, and has 4 hispano cannon- its simply much easier to fly and kill in. Thats why G10 is not perked.
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Maybe... but I have found the G10 to be one of the hardest aircraft for me to do well in. If you have a great deal of experience and skill, and know how to use the advantages of the aircraft, it might be one of the best, but in most peoples' hands (e.g. MINE) it is a tricky bird.
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STOP! Hold up the phone!
Get back to the question. Why is the Ta152 perked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
fscott
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SpitLead,
The 109G-10 handles horribly at high speed. It should not be perked. Sorry if you took that from what I was saying, but at 450mph it REALLY wans to just fly in a straight lineand much above that it DOES just fly in a straight line. Unfortunately, that is usally into the ground.
Sheer speed is not a good way to judge if a plane should be perked, you have to look at its overall performance. The 109G-10 leaves a lot to be desired in a lot of ways.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Anyone have a clue why the Ta152 is perked?
Probably because only a Stabsschwärm and a Staffel were equipped with the type during WWII.
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Fscott,
'Cause it really has the potential to be a game breaker, or at least seems to. It may be that with further use it will be cheapened, or even unperked, but the jury is still out on it.
Like I told SpitLead, just looking at speed is not a good way to judge if a plane should be perked or not. We have to look at its whole package.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Try a whole Gruppe, funkedup.
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The Ta-152's element is high altitude. It was designed at the time when Germany was being bombed by B-17 and B-24 raids. Its intended purpose is high altitude bomber intercept. Buzz right on by escort fighters and shoot bombers down.
It isn't good down low, and I'm surprised not many knew this.
Just look at that chart. After about 25,000 feet, the Ta 152 just gets faster and faster, leaving the rest behind.
Its also got a low velocity 30mm cannon, which is not a good air-to-air figher weapon. It is a bomber killer though. If your above 25,000 feet fighting a Ta152, your not going to see it lose engine power untill 40,000 feet when the superchargers finnally hit their max output. Of course most fighters superchargers on fighters have hit their max output long before that (that point on the charts where the speed just abruptly curves back).
Latewar German fighters are not dogfighters, they're all bomber interceptors.
Hans.
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What Hans said.
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Voss
13th TAS
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It's perked because it can climb to 50k or so. Above 30k nothing can touch it.
It is the ultimate terror plane for high-alt stuff. High-alt stuff isn't very common in the MA, which limits this airplane's usefulness. Used properly--lets say escorting a stratobuff (or breaking up an escorted stratobuff run), nothing can touch this plane.
Think of it as a special occasion plane.
J_A_B
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LOL, I'm 2-0 vs strato buffs in it. <G>
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Try a whole Gruppe, funkedup.
What Gruppe Nath? I really want to know where more than Staffel strength were in action within the same gruppe?
As far as I know the production rate for the Ta-152 was under 150 aircraft total for all variants of it. The overwhelming majority of them were destroyed at production facility airfields waiting on pilots and never saw action.
Also JG301 was supposed to receive a full compliment for all Jagdflieger in the gruppe to transition to but due to the above mentioned destruction of them there was not enough to even field a full Staffel. Hence JG301 Stabschwarm was formed and many of the "hot" JG300 and JG301 pilots were transferred over to it.
I will keep digging around and see what I can turn up on this subject of being "a whole gruppe" Nath.
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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Nath, you know better than that. They may have called it a Gruppe, but a Gruppe was typically 40-50 aircraft, and a Staffel was between 12 and 16 aircraft.
Highest strength for a Ta152 equipped unit was the initial delivery of 12 (or was it 13?) for JG301. After that typical unit strength was 7 to 8 operational aircraft at any one time. Sounds like a understrength Staffel to me.
Fscott, its perked mainly because of perception in my opinon, because it certainly isn't anything special in the arena, except to strato buffs.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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S!
My mistake earlier in stating the TA-152H had a Mk103 30mm firing through the prop. Seems that was only installed on the 152C. I am beginning to agree with the others who have asked why it is perked. I do not see a reason for that now since it only has the standard low accuracy Mk108 30mm. Essentially it is not up to the level of the Tempest at all. In fact I would say the La-7 is a far more dangerous aircraft.
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Vermillion;
I think the number they received in JG301 was 13. However for one reason or another they never had more than 7 operational at once except in the first few missions. From what I remember that was due mainly to engine problems with the engine they had. They did replace the engine but without reading back again I do not know right off the top of my head what was replaced and what took its place.
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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Originally posted by funked:
Anyone have a clue why the Ta152 is perked?
Probably because only a Stabsschwärm and a Staffel were equipped with the type during WWII.[/b]
I wan't to perk Chog, there was only couple hundred of those (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I still see no clear evidence why it should be perked. Hans, you brought up the only viable reason why, however, this reasoning is with fault. Ponder the following thoughts:
1) It is perked because it can outperform any plane above 30k, however it is given only a maximum of 10 min of MW50 boost at one time, when historically it could go 28 min with MW50 boost.
2) The reasoning behind only 10 min maximum is for "gameplay" reasons, or also called the fule-multilier. Yet it would seem logical to give this plane its full alotted 28 min of MW50 boost, because it needs that to get to 30k fast enuff, and also perform at that altitude the way it should.
3) It is a buff killer. Yet how practical is this in the MA? How many buffs do you see flying at 25k? Not very often. Additionally, why would one EVER risk 50 perk points *just* to chase down a buff at 30k, when many other palnes can do the trick without risking perks.
Conclusion, I think the mystique of the plane has contributed largely to it being perked. IMO it is worth no mroe than 10 perk points if perked at all.
fscott
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It's perked to simulate it's low usage in the war -- not because it's a monster like the Tempest. It seems pretty logical to me.
Servo
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Yeehaw, let's perk all them nasty Italian planes. Not too many were produced and they are all some sort of huge furry cosmic monsters that eat other planes for breakfast.
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SageFIN
"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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Eheheh, guys, first this is a game. Ok, then you can understand why an UFO at medium-low alt like the Niki is not perked and why a plane like the Ta152H-1 is. Much more dangerous a well flown Dora (from 0 to 20K, that is, where 99% of the fights are fought).
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A few other planes, like hmm..., the CHOG would then fall in to the perk catagory Servo.
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1942 and later planes should all have some perk cost IMHO.
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Maybe because of pilots' stories like this .
"So now it was two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1s. But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines' ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realized from the start that it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactical ploy possible to try to gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights, the tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta152 caught the tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
Now there was no escape for the tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the tempest pilot didn't realize my predicament as he'd already taken hits .
Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably - he stalled. The tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us ."
Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke
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I really like that story, even though a brave man did loose his life I still like that story.
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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Based on this thread, I guess the real question isn't why is the Ta-152H perked (It's obvious). The real question should be, 'Why are the bases all so close that many people won't fly higher then 20k', 13th TAS notwithstanding.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is always easier than craftmanship.'
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Funny you mention that Sundog. The current argument in Fighter Ace is something along the same lines although they still want to have "instant action in the Territorial Arenas" I myself like the 25 miles or so between the bases in AH. The action is still somewhat close but it does give you the option to get high altitude. It just depends on if you want to take it or not.
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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One reason is that most planes have a very limited effective range due to current ma fuel burn settings .
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Perk the D9, unperk the Ta152. Problem solved.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Stab and III./JG 301 was equipped solely with the 152, maybe not at full strength, but thats all they operated. Thus, a whole group was equipped with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-17-2001).]
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perk the d9? no way!
Finally we LW get a plane to catch the damn runstangs and you want it perked?
Ive had to fly countless tours flying the 190's at a disadvantage to p51's etc.
I want to enjoy this turn around if you dont mind!
hazed
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Perk the D-9
GOD NO!
Then all the runner dorks would fly the Pony again!
:P
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Stab and III./JG 301 was equipped solely with the 152, maybe not at full strength, but thats all they operated. Thus, a whole group was equipped with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-17-2001).]
Wrong Nath. III./JG301 was not fully equipped with it. The whole of JG301 maybe only received about 20 Ta-152's. The reason being is like what I explained earlier. A large number of them were destroyed on the ground waiting on a time to be ferried to the operational units. Therefore you can not say that an entire Gruppe was equipped. Not even in a remote fashion since the numbers would indicate at best it was never used in more than Staffel strength of 12-16 aircraft at any one time.
I found this link which has the numbers of the Ta-152's that were assigned to JG301. http://www.ww2.dk/articles/elflr1.html (http://www.ww2.dk/articles/elflr1.html)
There are two tables I have been looking at on this site while translating it. One of them deals with what I believe is the 9th Fliegerkorps. Under that heading is another break down to the 1st Jagddivision which has Stab/JG301 in its chain of command. In this part of the tables the man lists 4 Ta-152's as "Soll" (I believe that is meaning obligated or promised) with 2 being shown on the books and those same two being functional. For the pilot allotment in the next part of the table reading left to right it shows a note on the number of pilots that were available as obligated and ready being 3 with 2 always standing by. I will write more here in a few minutes as I finish banging my head for needing to learn German to communicate with my bosses in Germany. And so I could accurately communicate what the author of this page is wanting to say.
In the above link I have figured out that "Soll" in German means "Debit, Liability, Obligation" so they were supposed to have received 16 for the Stabschwarm and 52 for III./JG301 BUT they only received 7 for the Stabschwarm and 5 for III./JG301. So how does that translate into a full Gruppe Nath? A total of 13 planes for a staff flight and for the 3rd gruppe together does not even come close to anything over staffel strength. This also corresponds to the word "Besatzung" which I believe means people assigned to the post, loosely translated. I take "Flgz." to mean Flugzeug for aircraft as well.
OK here is some more information I have found. This data does not follow the same as what I posted earlier for the aircraft being assigned. I have emailed the guy to get him to send me his sources for the data. That way I can hopefully figure out why it shows Fw-190A-9 in several place for assignment in 12/44.
Here are the JG301 aircraft assignment sheets I have found online as linked through the site listed above:
This one is for Stab/JG301: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg301.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg301.html)
This one is for I./JG301: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg301.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg301.html)
This one is for II./JG301: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html)
This one is for III./JG301: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg301.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg301.html)
This one is for IV./JG301: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bivjg301.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bivjg301.html)
This one is for 10./JG301: http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/b10jg301.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/b10jg301.html)
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber www.luftjagerkorps.com (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by Reschke (edited 03-18-2001).]
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Didn't say fully equipped, I said soley. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Not many Jagdgeschwaders were operating Jagdgruppes with 35-40 aircraft in March '45. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But they were still referred to as Jagdgruppes.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-18-2001).]
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Neither were they "soley" equipped either. After looking back at the information I posted I would think that III./JG301 would have operated with close to full Staffel compliment for its 4 Staffels. Check the last part of the III./JG301 aircraft assignments that show delivery in 12/44. They received 37 Fw-190's then right before they took delivery of the few Ta-152's they got. This would put them at close to full Staffel strength for the time in December of 1944 and on into January 1945. For how long I am not sure as I would have to check units records and aircraft losses. But that is pretty easily done with the right contacts. Anyway what I am trying to say is that no where was any one staffel or even gruppe for that matter equipped with more than 2 Schwarme of Ta-152. That goes for Gallands baby project in JV44; "The Platzschutzstaffel" or "Papagei Staffel (I think the word Papgei means parrot for the bright colors it has)" for the colors they had to paint on the underside of their planes so their own anti-aircraft gunners would not shoot them down. In fact most of his prop fighters for that one were Fw-190D-9's with a single example of a Fw-190D-11.
Not trying to argue or flame m8, just trying to make sure the right information stays in the minds of people so they can make their own decision about why the plane is perked.
CYA in the MA!
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber www.luftjagerkorps.com (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by Reschke (edited 03-18-2001).]
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perk the g-10? lol good grief
yeah it goes fast but it takes about 8 million miles to turn if at all at that speed - in it or any 109. and even then the guns dont work until you are less than 400 max - more like 2-300 avg. perk the la-7 if ya wanna perk something
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They won't listen Nath (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Maik
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Ah, you are missing the point.
For how long I am not sure as I would have to check units records and aircraft losses. But that is pretty easily done with the right contacts.
Do this please.
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For whatever reason, fscott, we still don't have all of the information relevant to the perk system in AH. Until, the game is a little further along, we probably won't, either. However, the 152 is an awesome ride. If, people ever start flying these planes where they belong (the 13th TAS DOES NOT fly above 30k, for instance; hell, not even 20k for the most part) then the reason the 152 is perked will become obvious, IMO.
I have been waiting to see a *smart* buff group request escort. So far, most of the formations I have seen have been below 20k. Above 30k the 152 is the only plane that can manuever with a B-17. I know, because I have flown a 17 deep into enemy territory, and turned about on P-38's and 109's around 33k. They all stall and drop like stones. Not the 152, though!
I would like to set up a scenario where Fortresses are escorted by 38's, 47's, and 51's deep into enemy territory. It would be great if we could have Bf-109's, 110's, 410's and Ta-152's intercept. That would be an engagement worth remembering!
LW GUYS: Are those air-to-air rockets functional yet? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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Voss, do not judge a plane for use in AH as to how it performed in WW2. Above 30k is virtually impractical. There's only one reason to operate at that alt, and that is to either escort buffs, or intercept buffs. Yet neither of these things happen very often, since taking an airfield can be done just as quickly, and even more efficiently by use of several buffs at low to medium alt.
And when you engage a Ta152 at 30k, guess what people will do, dive for lower alts. Heck, why spend your time at 30k fighting a 152 anyway?
fscott
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Are you referring to the 'fighter pilot' mindset, or the 'bomber pilot' mindset? If a slow buff wants to survive, it will go high every time. Perhaps, not so the Arado. You have to consider the real world use of these planes in this game, fscott. If, you consider it a waste of time, don't fly it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have a feeling, though, that I could make excellent use of this plane. In fact, I know I could. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
I'm in the P-51, though, and for good. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS