Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gman on September 13, 2002, 12:14:32 PM
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Maybe some of you in Eastern Canada heard about United SHooting SPorts being held up and robbed about a week ago. I guy I knew name John Fullerton was working in a job much like I do with my spare time, helping Canadian shooters out.
http://www.canada.com/toronto/story.asp?id={A129FD05-2344-4747-96B6-7D3D17EE5CCD}
John subsequently died of his injuries caused by the shotgun blast to his head region. It is now known from witness accounts and the evidence that he did what the party line is here in Canada - put your hands up and do EXACTLY what the criminal tells you...after all, he's a logical beast he only wants money, and not to hurt anybody. Well, John did this, and in fact had his hands up still as the crew of robbers went out the door, and as the last guy exited, he spun and shot John in the face, while John was still motionless reaching for the sky. The other 3 employees were co-operating as well, and one had his infant son with him. Fullerton leaves behind a family. 75 handguns 9mm caliber and up were taken by the 4-6 thiefs, who escaped in 2 mini vans.
When my oilpatch jobs gets slow, I do some volunteer range officer duties at http://www.theshootingedge.com here in Calgary, Alberta. About 6 months ago, the CFC and federal gov't came down on us for wearing sidearms at work (members were allowed and are allowed in every other range to have pistols strapped on, so long as they follow range rules - you can't walk around anywhere else in the country with a gun on except at a range). They said it was fine for members to be wearing them, as their transport permits semi-cover it, but employees fall under the "retail" act which specifically prohibits firearms, mainly because the gov't is worried about self defence.
Well, there was a big outcry after John's death about the gov't ignoring or just plain refusing the version of a carry permit to protect life we have here. There is less than 8 of them that I've heard of ever being issued, and mainly only to x-police chiefs or political friends of whoever that wanted them. Now, the head of the Canadian Firearms Center has said that people can "apply" for self defense permits, particualarly if they work in a high threat buisness involving say firearms or cash. Nobody knows if any of the permits several have put in for will be approved, but historically they never are.
I'm not sure if having a gun on would have saved John Fullerton's life, but at least he would have had the choice to try. I'm also thinking about the deterant factor, as I've read that criminals surveyed in jail say that they will rarely if ever attack an armed person, or a person they feel is trained with firearms. I know I'm not the fastest person, but I've taken a number of courses for pistol self defence at frontsite in the USA, and in less than a second I can draw and fire into a close range target, but I'm not sure after working the counter at the gun range if this is a wise course of action once a robbery is taking place. I've done some mental exercises as people enter the shop "what would I do if, etc", and it's a pretty unappealing tactical situation. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do was if you had a clear line of fire, the instant you see a masked person with a gun rushing in, shoot him, OR, don't have a gun on at all, and hope what happens to John Fullerton doesn't happen to me.
I'm wondering what my fellow Canadians here I know dislike firearms, particularly for self defence, think about the possibility of a CCW type permit becoming prevalent in our society, because once the first one gets approved, there will be precedent for many, many more.
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Well. It seems to me that if bank guards can have firearms and brinks guards can have firearms then gun store owners should have firearms.
Tragic wieght to your oft stated opinion that criminals will find ways to get guns.
keep safe bud.
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I fail to understand why a law-abiding citizen should be unable to purchase and/or carry a gun. Background checks and mandatory training are a must IMO.
Making guns illegal obviously isn't going to stop criminals from using them. They exist, getting rid of them is impossible. Sometimes defending yourself violently is the only option.
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I'm sorry :(
I hope they are found and strung up from the highest tree.
Karaya2
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First off Gman, i would like to express my sympathy. While you did not mention John Fullerton as your friend, you did say that you knew him. I'm sorry.
Now then, I will state that i do not like guns. For hunting and sporting purposes i think firearms of any nature (within reason) are fine. As for personal protection however, i dont think that licenses to conceal and carry are a good thing.
Let's apply this to the situation of John Fullerton. As you stated there were 3 other employees present along with a young child. No person in their right mind would draw a firearm of any description and start a gunfight with a child present. Especially when outnumbered (you said 4 to 6 assailants were present in the store, with how many outside?)
So even if every employee of the store was armed, they would most likely be out manned and out gunned. It could have been worse, sad to say.
As for the general question of CCW legislation, i would say no on all counts. You and I both know that firearms are much more likely to cause harm and death to unintended victims than to criminals commiting any offence under any circumstances. We have both heard countless stories from our own country and our neighbours to the south where simple domestic disputes have ended up in someone getting shot, where after-shool childhood curiosity has ended up in tradgedy, and where unintended dishcharges from firearms have added one more face to the obituary page in the newspaper.
Now of course the firearm itself is never to blame, i recognize that. However let's face it, at no time during history was any good ever achieved by arming the public (or giving the opportunity thereto.)
Another brief point:
Im not sure how it works in Alberta, but only about 3 years ago did Saskatchewans' Conservation Officers gain the right (and obligation) to carry side arms.
Now this may come as a suprise, but the greatest objection to this change came from the C.O.s themselves. The reason is pretty obvious (to me at least.)
You are less likely to be shot at if the person you are dealing with knows that you are unarmed. If you are not a threat, you are not a target. (of course there are situations where this is not the case, as you have mentioned, but i think that we can accept this as a rule.)
I personally feel that our goverment adopting legislation allowing our citizens to conceal and carry would be a bad idea. But that is just my opinion, and as always, i am open to critisim. Beside im a bit of a hypocrite.
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inominate,
because the vast majority of the people in our country do not want the prolifiration of guns that the small majority of people in your country do want.
I feel on safer ground supporing gmans limited contention then in debating again univeral gun law.
Because, as gunstores are legal in our country(but far more rare then they were) and if someone is going to rob a gun store they will 100% be armed and very likely the worst sort of criminal(not a casual kind of robery)
then the operators life is very much in danger working at a gun store. and he should be allowed to be armed and registered to be armed while at work.
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Sorry to hear that Gman :(
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Originally posted by Pongo
Well. It seems to me that if bank guards can have firearms and brinks guards can have firearms then gun store owners should have firearms.
I don't know, I think this would open alot of doors I don' want open. The sell rifles at Canadian Tire. Would the clerks and cashiers there get to carry pistols as well?
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Canadians and children should not be allowed to have guns , they will just put their eye out.
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Originally posted by john9001
Canadians and children should not be allowed to have guns , they will just put their eye out.
loser grabs a torch
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Originally posted by john9001
Canadians and children should not be allowed to have guns , they will just put their eye out.
Just as Rosie O'Donnell shouldn't be allowed to carry a spoon.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Just as Rosie O'Donnell shouldn't be allowed to carry a spoon.
1. Has given millions to charity
2. Has come out and apologized for her uneducated stance on gun control
3. Is one of the few celebrities who have chosen family over fame
4. Deserves just a little slack for all of the above.
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Concealed Weapons Permit Laws
Liberalized concealed-carry handgun laws, now in effect in 31 states, are a major factor in reducing violent crime. This was proven by University of Chicago by Professors John Lott and David Mustard in their landmark 1996 study, "Crime, Deterrence and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns." The researchers examined crime in the more than 3,000 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992 and discovered liberalized concealed-carry laws reduced murders by 8.5 percent, rapes by 5 percent and aggravated assaults by 7 percent.
Firearm Use by Civilians to Deter Crime
By carefully examining facts and statistics from the Department of Justice, the F.B.I. and other law enforcement agencies, Prof. Gary Kleck from the School of Criminology, Florida State University, discovered Americans use firearms to prevent crimes approximately 1 to 1.5 million times per year. These are the very cases Kellermann chose to ignore. Had Kellermann considered these facts, he would have had to conclude a firearm in the home makes a family safer.
Prof. Kleck also discovered that robbery victims who defended themselves with a gun suffered lower rates of injury than did those who resisted without a gun, or even those who did not resist at all and instead complied with the violent criminal's demands. In short, Prof. Kleck concluded the private ownership of firearms deters criminal behavior. (Source: "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force" by Gary Kleck)
There is considerable debate regarding the number of times firearms are used each year to fend off violent criminals. Much of the uncertainty is due to the fact that defensive gun uses are often limited to the would-be victim displaying a firearm which scares away the perpetrator. Such incidents are seldom reported to government agencies, which explains the lower estimates by such agencies. The annual estimates are as follows:
No. of Defensive Uses Source
2.1 million Point Blank: Guns & Violence in America, Gary Kleck
700,000 Mauser study
650,000 Hart study
108,000 1993 National Crime Victim Survey
76,000 1996 National Crime Victim Survey
Significantly, even using the lowest estimate, 76,000 violent crimes are prevented by armed citizens each year. Thus, the number of violent crimes thwarted by armed citizens is about four times the annual murder rate.
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More Canadians should be armed.
Cuz' you'll always see the damnedest things when ya ain't got a gun.
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There was a big "The sky will fall" outcry by the lefties, a few years ago, when concealed carry was being debated here in Texas. It was passed. And the sky did not fall. There was no big change of any kind. I do remember a story about a guy who helped out a cop who was pinned down in a gun fight. But it was more of a "man bites dog" story, than anything else. In the end, no big change in criminal activity occurred. Nor was there any notable increase in accidental shootings. Guns only have magical properties in the movies.
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Canada has about 1/4 firearm related homicides, per capita compared to the US.
And violent crime is dropping. Why started adding guns into the equation. We did have then when there was more violent crime, why would we need them when there's less?
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lol mili, they do strange things in Saskatchawan.
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About 8 years ago in Pickering,Oshawa(very close to what just happened),the exact same thing took place...A gun store was robbed and an ex-classmate and good friend of mine(Norman Chow) was needlessly murdered.He was behind the cash,trying to pay off his school loans after graduating a Mechanical Engineer.He co-operated with the thugs and they shot him on the way out for no reason.
Some of my best childhood memories was hanging with him outside his dad's fruit market.
I agree with Pongo,gun shops should have the right to arm them selves.
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Originally posted by Pongo
lol mili, they do strange things in Saskatchawan.
keeeeeerist Pongo, you think you would be able to spell it right.