Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on September 16, 2002, 07:12:17 PM
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I guess you are all so blazingly happy with Saddam at the development as I'm sure he will do a bang up job in allowing them free access.
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Does this mean Dubya gets everything he wanted?
Why is that a Liberal issue?
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Speaking as a moderate-conservative, I am happy. If he abides by the sanctions and allows the inspectors the access required, great. If he doesn't, and violates the terms again, then the U.N. will be more than justified in taking further action. There is no rush to bloodshed.
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People call George W. a fool, but he got what he wanted without losing a single U.S. life.
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Hmmm, I wonder if this will stop the war.
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Maybe, maybe not, but whose court is the ball in now, Thrawn?
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I would be cautious and not start the table dancing yet guys...
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Originally posted by fdiron
People call George W. a fool, but he got what he wanted without losing a single U.S. life.
I wonder if Iraq's decision was influenced by Saudi Arabia's permission to allow the US use of our airbases with UN approval of military sanctions against Iraq? Whatever, I'd prefer calling GWB a peacemaker rather than a fool any day, especially if we aren't shedding blood in Iraq.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Maybe, maybe not, but whose court is the ball in now, Thrawn?
Fillipo - The Magical Clown's, apparently.
Edit:
"Iraq agrees to weapons inspections
September 16, 2002 Posted: 10:44 PM EDT (0244 GMT)
Annan confirmed Monday that Iraq had agreed to allow weapons inspectors to return without conditions.
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- In a letter handed over to the United Nations on Monday, Iraq said it would allow the return of U.N. weapons inspectors "without conditions" to "remove any doubts Iraq still possesses weapons of mass destruction." "
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/16/iraq.un.letter/index.html
Cripes I hope this stops a war.
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Well I'd rather we not go to war in Iraq, dont know why but it always bothered me a bit which was a surprise to me personally. However why should we expect any change from Hussein this time around - the last time he agreed to cooperate we had several armies inside Iraq and look how sincire his inteintion at that moment were.
So liberals who dislike Bush what do you all think will come of this? Will Hussein be a good guy and let the inspectors roam freely?
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I wonder if Iraq's decision was influenced by Saudi Arabia's permission to allow the US use of our airbases with UN approval of military sanctions against Iraq?
No doubt.
SA has been the key to this thing, from beginning, to this point. If binladin is still around. I bet thats where he is at. The Bush's relationship with the Saudis makes me think Jr. may be able to turn terrorism on and off, like the Arabs do the oil. The so called sunset clause in the, screw their constitutional rights program, may never set.
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Stow it you crepe-hangers!
Fer Pete's SAKE! This is a POSITIVE development. Nobody is getting shot at, at least for the near term future.
And IF the inspectors go back, get FREE access and FIND NOTHING than wouldn't it be logical to start loosening up the sanctions? Good thing there, eh? Iraq rejoining the community of nations?
And if they go back and get the runaround, there's always time then to mount an offensive as someone pointed out above.
And if they go back and FIND WMD... then it's best to know and solve the situation as early as possible, isn't it?
Those of you trying to read the Saudi intentions.. good luck. They're doing what they feel is in their best national interest. Maybe seeing the US Military pull out and head to Qatar didn't give them the "warm fuzzies". Maybe the US cut a deal to support Saudi initiatives on Israel. Lots goes on behind the scenes ane we're not going to "read all about it" any time soon. Probably in our lifetimes.
For now, it's time to smile and hope for a better future.
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Granted, I've never been to Iraq and dunno how easy it is to hide stuff there...
but considering Saddam isn't the dumbest guy in the world, he knows that giving the UN inspectors the run-around will give him time to move/hide/etc whatever he had or may have had, or has.
So, he let's 'em in this time... they find nothing... you still really think it would be a good idea to loosen the sanctions around a mad man that's been playing the UN like a hooker plays the skin flute?
I dunno... not saying we should go to war or anything like that... but by no means do I think giving Saddam any less pressure will help anyone or anything.
-SW
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Absolutely agreed Toad, it's the first positive thing to come out of that region in months. In the words of John Lennon, give peace a chance.
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Well, I guess it's like this for me:
He may be real sharp and a real smooth operator.
But the rest of the world has some pretty sharp folks too. And great technology as well.
(For those who complained about CIA plants, etc... that's why you need those guys. You need guys that are good spooks and specialize in Iraq to go along and try to see what parts of the puzzle are missing, if you catch my drift. I'd love to see some of the best Spy types from Britain, Russia, Germany, France and the US go in there sneaking and peeking. I'd sure feel a lot better about the search if they did.)
Couple the investigators up to sophisticated reconnaissance/investigation techniques and I like the chances of finding out what's really happening in Iraq's possible WMD programs using UN Inspectors much better than I like the idea of the US unilaterally invading Iraq... especially since it's pretty clear that the US Congress is/would abdicate it's responsibility to declare war.
Clearly, the Congress doesn't want to touch this issue with elections coming up. They're afraid of having to actually state their postion right before many of them stand for re-election. Basically, they're chickensh*ts. Isn't it OUR RIGHT to know where a candidate stands on the issue of war with Iraq BEFORE we send the candidate to DC to speak for us?
Blecch. I hate those gutless wonders.
Anyway... for now, I'll take it. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
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I agree, I don't think anything as bad as war will happen (I hope not anyway) with the UN inspectors let back in.
Yup, CIA operatives (and special forces too) are out there probably listening to Saddam take a dump right now...
but he prolly knows that too...
I dunno, there's just a lot of things about Iraq and Saddam in particular that makes me think that anything other than some type of mind reading device that can relay everything he thinks back to the Intel guys is insufficient.
There's a lotta places the inspectors couldn't go into before... why? And now he's gonna let 'em waltz thru with red carpet treatment..... I just think it's smoke 'n mirrors.
But, like you said, anything is better than war... I just hope that's not the temporary train of thought.. (ie: the toejam hits the fan later on down the road... some big toejam)
-SW
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Originally posted by Toad
Stow it you crepe-hangers!
Fer Pete's SAKE! This is a POSITIVE development. Nobody is getting shot at, at least for the near term future.
And IF the inspectors go back, get FREE access and FIND NOTHING than wouldn't it be logical to start loosening up the sanctions? Good thing there, eh? Iraq rejoining the community of nations?
And if they go back and get the runaround, there's always time then to mount an offensive as someone pointed out above.
And if they go back and FIND WMD... then it's best to know and solve the situation as early as possible, isn't it?
Those of you trying to read the Saudi intentions.. good luck. They're doing what they feel is in their best national interest. Maybe seeing the US Military pull out and head to Qatar didn't give them the "warm fuzzies". Maybe the US cut a deal to support Saudi initiatives on Israel. Lots goes on behind the scenes ane we're not going to "read all about it" any time soon. Probably in our lifetimes.
For now, it's time to smile and hope for a better future.
Absolutely! :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So liberals who dislike Bush what do you all think will come of this? Will Hussein be a good guy and let the inspectors roam freely?
We'll see, but past trends make it seem doubtful. Still, we tried to avoid military action and use a peaceful solution. Hopefully it works. If not, well, the military is still there.
I'd just rather not put our boys and girls in harms way unless truly required. It is not something to be done lightly.
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So liberals who dislike Bush what do you all think will come of this? Will Hussein be a good guy and let the inspectors roam freely?
As long as they aren't chicken toejams.......like yourself as example, I'm sure they will do their job to the best of their ability in accordance with any restrictions saddam places on them.
Does that answer your question lily liver?
Your a real anachronism, you talk like a hawk but are too much of a coward to back it up.
I fart in your general direction.
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Lol!
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So I guess it depends on Saddam keeping his word.
Anybody taking bets on that?
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"Your a real anachronism, you talk like a hawk but are too much of a coward to back it up."
True, but I'm too busy running the family oil business and getting communist lectures in Moscow. However I'd be happy to stop by Iraq to write some newspaper articles and have my picture taken with an M16.
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He will do what he can to keep an ttack happening over the winter.
What will it take, a month or two months to get inspectors set up and going? A month or so of Saddam to give umm a run around, the another few weeks to get the un/world back on board. Then the liberals will wail about giving "peace a chance" and give negotiations a chance and all this hippy love toejam.
My bet we will visit this again next fall.
We wont invade in the Summer, its to hot and the foot soldiers in chemical suits will have a tough time.
The best thing to do would be to send a "force" along with the inspectors. This force would go ahead of the inspectors and seal it off a site so the Iraqis dont play musical chairs with whatever evidence there maybe. This would mean the inspector dont inform the Iraqis of where then intend to look they just show up and say open the door now.
Some of them Castle/compounds of saddams are huge. There needs to be enough inspectors to swarm the place to stop any moving between rooms of things as well as to prevent the destruction of documents.
Then if the Iraqis balk slap the toejam out of umm.
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In case anyone is interested, the FAS has brought together some of the UN Documents pertaining to the previous inspection regime (UNSCOM). http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/index.html There is some pretty good information there, and there are facts to support both sides of the current "are inspections worth a toejam" argument. Not that facts or support are needed around here :p
-Sikboy
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the diff is we have Bush admin powered/backed inspectors in there now, or will have, maybe - not Clinton paper tiger inspectors
Wonder how big their Marines/Rangers escort will be ... :)
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The past few months have been a stalling tactic by Iraq IMHO. They needed time to hide all of the evidence and move the production into civilian housing areas to keep it away from those nosey prying UN inspectors.
It won't surprise me one bit to find out that the inspectors don't find anything when they get there.
Sorry..just don't trust Sadaam.
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I'm surprised the Iraqi regime hasn't insisted on a guarantee of non-agression after letting inspectors in.
To be honest, I think the US administration wants a war regardless of what Iraq does. And they'll get it.
Personally, I believe it should be based on the actions of the Iraqis viz the UN inspectors. If they are given full, unobstructed access then what is the point of shedding blood?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So liberals who dislike Bush what do you all think will come of this? Will Hussein be a good guy and let the inspectors roam freely?
Bush will find a reason to attack anyway because it is good for the polls and will distract from his horrible domestic performance.
How's that?
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Absolutely agreed Toad, it's the first positive thing to come out of that region in months. In the words of John Lennon, give peace a chance.
Uhh....and look where it got him....
xBAT
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"Peace for our time! Peace for our time!"
*waves Iraqi letter in hand*
Neville
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"Horrible domestic performance?"
Uninspired, maybe, but "horrible"?
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Very nice development, if it turns out to be true. One can always hope.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Bush will find a reason to attack anyway because it is good for the polls and will distract from his horrible domestic performance.
How's that?
Think you may have Bush confused with Clinton Sandman. :p
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Bush has refused the Iraqi offer for unconditional UN weapons inspections. Funny, I was just getting ready to comment on why anyone would prefer going to war as opposed to finding a peaceful solution because so many posters expressed disapointment that Iraq's offer to the UN might be accepted. Well, cheer up, guys. War is what you want and it looks like war is what you're going to get. Now go join up, cause my child damn sure won't enlist in the military to die in some God-damned stinkhole halfway around the world. Fuggin amazing.
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You have a daughter Elf... I don't think you have anything to worry about.
-SW
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Bush has refused the Iraqi offer for unconditional UN weapons inspections. Funny, I was just getting ready to comment on why anyone would prefer going to war as opposed to finding a peaceful solution because so many posters expressed disapointment that Iraq's offer to the UN might be accepted. Well, cheer up, guys. War is what you want and it looks like war is what you're going to get. Now go join up, cause my child damn sure won't enlist in the military to die in some God-damned stinkhole halfway around the world. Fuggin amazing.
heard it was because it wasn't "unconditionally"
heard the inspectors were only allowed to "inspect" "military" sites
sorry, Saddam has to go
once we get an American friendly ruler in there, the rest of the region (& their oil) will see US in a new light
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War sucks.. period.
As long as Iraq doesn't build and use weapons of mass destruction I'm all for a peacful solution.
Problem is, do you belive them?
Do you really think they wont try to hurt the US and it's citizens?
I'm willing to stand up for my country.
I'm also willing to give this a try.
It all depends on how thorough the inspectors are.
How about the reports of the 'drones' capable of carrying biological weapons.. scarry stuff.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Bush has refused the Iraqi offer for unconditional UN weapons inspections. Funny, I was just getting ready to comment on why anyone would prefer going to war as opposed to finding a peaceful solution because so many posters expressed disapointment that Iraq's offer to the UN might be accepted. Well, cheer up, guys. War is what you want and it looks like war is what you're going to get. Now go join up, cause my child damn sure won't enlist in the military to die in some God-damned stinkhole halfway around the world. Fuggin amazing.
While I acknowlege that it could be political posturing during the period preceding the acceptence of new Inspections, Dick Cheney said
A return of inspectors will provide no assurance whatsoever of compliance with U.N. resolutions. On the contrary, there is a great danger that it would provide false comfort that Saddam was somehow back in his box
When asked by Tim Russert to elaborate on this quote Cheney said
Yeah, I’m a real skeptic about inspections. But the key to inspections, if they’re going to work, is it’s essential that the inspectee, the target of the inspections, cooperate. And, of course, Saddam Hussein’s never done that. That’s one of the reasons that inspections haven’t achieved the desired result.
So I think that there is room for this to work. The administration has said in the past (as illustrated by the first quote) that inspections alone are not enough, but here Cheney seems to indicate that Inspections with enforocement may be acceptable.
Don't dust off your picket sign just yet elfenwolfe :)
-Sikboy
Oh, both quotes were taken from the Sept. 8th edition of Meet the Press
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Saddam has 25 Palaces. They are off limits to inspectors. Guess he needed quite a bit of concrete poured beneath these palaces, some sort of "basement" apparently. Gee, wonder if these basements could hold WMD?
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The fat lady hasn't sang and we haven't gone to war, yet.
Suspect Hussein will push us to the brink before caving in. He needs to know that we'll go all the way. Once he does he'll give us what we want. A risky game to be sure.
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I think some people have very short memories. Sadaam has sponsored terrorism in the past and he is going to keep right on doing so until he is removed.
Bush Jr. is finishing a job that his old man started...but unfortunately too many bleeding heart liberals back then thought that we shouldn't violate Iraqi soverign territory to do so.
This had 2 effects:
1. A whole lot of Kurds, who were promised help from the US, were left stranded and were butchered by Sadaam.
2. Sadaam lived to keep on supporting terrorism.
But, hey..you're right. War is bad...it's just that sometimes it's necessary.
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Originally posted by Curval
I think some people have very short memories. Sadaam has sponsored terrorism in the past and he is going to keep right on doing so until he is removed.
Bush Jr. is finishing a job that his old man started...but unfortunately too many bleeding heart liberals back then thought that we shouldn't violate Iraqi soverign territory to do so.
This had 2 effects:
1. A whole lot of Kurds, who were promised help from the US, were left stranded and were butchered by Sadaam.
2. Sadaam lived to keep on supporting terrorism.
But, hey..you're right. War is bad...it's just that sometimes it's necessary.
Seems so simple doesn't it? It's not like we've never been through this before. How many times does evil have to apeased before the bleeding hearts will realize that it only makes that evil stronger?
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Originally posted by Udie
Seems so simple doesn't it? It's not like we've never been through this before. How many times does evil have to apeased before the bleeding hearts will realize that it only makes that evil stronger?
Bush was President. He decided not to take down Saddam, not the 'bleeding hearts'.
If the government has evidence linking Saddam to 9/11, we should have already attacked. So far they have nothing.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
Bush was President. He decided not to take down Saddam, not the 'bleeding hearts'.
If the government has evidence linking Saddam to 9/11, we should have already attacked. So far they have nothing.
If you are refering to the Gulf war then you are wrong. We were there to get him out of Kuwait and protect the Saudi's and thier oil. Stormin Normin wanted to go all the way but Bush pulled the plug because of UN political pressure (enter the bleeding hearts)
We agree about the lack of evidence linking saddam to 9/11. This isn't about that. This is about backing up words with action so that future words have force and meaning. Otherwise why do we have a UN? As for now saddam said ok come back in no conditions. Well that's what they said at the end of the war 11 years and 16 violated UN resolutions ago. Sept. 17, 2002 there are still no inspectors in Iraq.
Answer me this, in 4 years how much stuff do you think they could hide where NOBODY will ever find it? This is a BS smoke screen, which is nothing new for Saddam it's how he stays in power, pandering to the bleeding hearts out there. Take him out and install a DEMOCRACY and then leave and let the people over there decide who leads them. That is the ONLY answer to this. That has been proven to work in the past, just look at Germany and Japan.
Bush Sr. had no mandate to go get Saddam. Would have been nice but the UN isn't farsighted enough.....
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
You have a daughter Elf... I don't think you have anything to worry about.
-SW
Shhh SWulfe, in a perfect liberal world we'll draft the boys and the girls. Just disapointed cause I thought Sadaam was making a concession to the UN is all. I feel like we should give every opportunity for a peace process to work before we commit to another war.
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Originally posted by Curval
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It won't surprise me one bit to find out that the inspectors don't find anything when they get there.
That logic reminds me of the guy in Full Metal Jacket who was the door gunner on a helo giving Joker a ride. He'd yell out at the Vietnamese working in the rice paddies to freeze. If they ran they were VC- if the froze they were well trained VC. Of course when asked how he could shoot women and children he had a classic answer- "Easy- You just don't lead them as much."
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Best part of Full Metal Jacket! :D
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OK heres my buy on it, as a non-Yank who's clearly not-totally-pro-USA.
First terrorism. I can't believe half the world missed this one. When pushed on potential US action in Iraq, Saddam warned that he would strike back at the US on their own soil (US soil that is). Now, Iraq has no conventional weapons capable of striking the USA. So what other weapon could Saddam possibly use? Answer - Terrorists. Conclusion, Iraq has openly admitted links to and use of terrorists on US soil.
Second, UN Inspectors. The last lot thrown out were lead by a Kiwi, thats right, an NZer, a no BS type. Iraq was clearly trying to hide toejam and this guy didn't play diplomatic roll over and rub my belly.
Third. I watched a recent report where 'diplomats and reporters' (no scientists LOL) were given a tour of a site rumoured to be a weapons development facility. Of course it was 'sanitised'. Although there were 'pens' used for livestock research, what made me laugh was there was no room for a cow/horse/anything larger than a man in these 'pens', so you can guess what sort of livestock was being 'researched'. The reporters filmed parts of the facility which were clearly recently rebuilt, and heavily fortified, and were prevented from filming in some areas by security.
Saddam is playing a waiting game. The longer it takes the world to figure it out, the more fortified Iraq becomes. And the more developed their NBC weapons become. The truth of the matter is if Iraq takes Kuwait again, the Arab nations will not get involved. If Iraq strikes Israel, the Arab nations 'officially' will 'protest', but they won't lift a finger against Saddam. They are scared.
By now Saddam has read up on the US military tactics, he has learned of any weakness from Desert Storm. He is prepared to use weapons the west find horrific, even at the cost of his own people.
We are essentially, looking at a Hitler scenario.
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Yes Vulcan but we should postpo, I mean avoid war at all cost. If we were to do something right now people could, shock horror get killed. But we all know far fewer people will suffer when Saddam has and starts lobbing nukes in a few years.
Consider yourselves warned Munich types.
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Goes to prove yet again that a real threat of force is a bigger motivator than constant talk and resolutions. ( Still dont believe Sadam will follow through though(
Bush is doing a great job.
Until Bush started rattling the sabre, nothing was changing in Iraq's attude.
They know we have a President that means what he says and is not screwing around.
Bush is restoring credibiltiy to the USA's power. The world needs to know that we have the power and will to defend our interests.
Only through strenght will others think twice before they attack us or support terror against us.
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Actually, I think this is playing out just fine right now.
I even like the part where we're moving men and equipment into the area, even if it's less than 100,000 pounds in that latest shipment.
Has to give the UN Inspector team a lot more capability to see what they want to see if US troops are moving into the theater. They come to a locked door and the UN Inspectors can say "you want to open that for us... or shall we have it opened for you?" with a big smile on their faces.
Nobodies shooting, UN Inspectors are ready to go (according to the Media anyway) and the US hasn't let its guard down a bit.
Relax and unclench your hair a while and lets see how this plays out.
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Thought I was the only one who felt that way...
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Originally posted by Udie
If you are refering to the Gulf war then you are wrong. We were there to get him out of Kuwait and protect the Saudi's and thier oil. Stormin Normin wanted to go all the way but Bush pulled the plug because of UN political pressure (enter the bleeding hearts)
I dissagree, and posit that it had more to do with geopolitical realities in the cold war era vis a vis maintaining the international coalition, than it did with "bleeding hearts" in the UN. I believe that Key nations who opposed the toppling of the Iraqi regime were acting largely in their own best interest, often with a financial stake, and not becuase of some altruistic "group hug" hippie peace nonsense. We wanted the Arabs on our side, so we made sure our war aims didn't alienate them. We wanted Soviet acquiescence, so we made sure that Sadam stayed in power (presumably because Iraq owes Russia a huge chunck of Cash).
There were a lot of factors at work there.
-Sikboy
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Givent he sudden sense of urgency I suspect Bush has intel that a few years is not the case.
My money is on two paths. The first, the UN inspectors get kicked out before Xmas and the US pulls the trigger. All toejam breaks loose and I'm not sure who will win (the fight will not be as easy this time). Hopefully Saddam gets a bullet between the eyes.
The second, Saddam manages to keep everyone in a holding pattern til early next year, becomes nuke capable. At this stage the US re-evaluates its objectives vs costs (a madman with nukes he is only to happy to use) in the area and pulls out. Saddam retakes Kuwait, with the Arab nations to scared to do anything because of his NBC capabilities. Next step Israel.
Just remember, when they test their first nuke the Kurds can grab their ankles and kiss their arses goodbye.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes Vulcan but we should postpo, I mean avoid war at all cost. If we were to do something right now people could, shock horror get killed. But we all know far fewer people will suffer when Saddam has and starts lobbing nukes in a few years.
Consider yourselves warned Munich types.
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Yea but that intel is curropted by evil US oil companies that control Bush, so I'm inclined to believe Saddam and Tariq Azziz more when it comes to Iraqi nuclear weapons capability.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
That logic reminds me of the guy in Full Metal Jacket who was the door gunner on a helo giving Joker a ride. He'd yell out at the Vietnamese working in the rice paddies to freeze. If they ran they were VC- if the froze they were well trained VC. Of course when asked how he could shoot women and children he had a classic answer- "Easy- You just don't lead them as much."
My logic appears to have struck a chord with Elfenwolf.
Okay…how about an analogy:
I am a heroin producer and dealer. The police want to bust me because I am a menace to society. But, I have some very high profile lawyers who appeal to the courts to prevent the police from raiding me. I also know that the police will eventually get their way and come into my place of business to perform a search.
Instead of simply sitting around and waiting for the inevitable I pack up all of my materials required to produce my heroin and the supplies I have already manufactured and move them to a place I know that the police would not search.
In this way when the police do show up they won’t find anything.
Elfenwolf seems to find this logic very hard to understand. I think it is rather simple.
Perhaps though he puts a great deal of trust in Mr. Hussein.
Whose logic is flawed again?