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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AvidMC on September 17, 2002, 08:00:22 AM

Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: AvidMC on September 17, 2002, 08:00:22 AM
I never do this but I have finally hit the whine threshold so here goes.

Last night I am flying down at A30 and I spot a low Mossie heading into the base. I roll over and dive on him. As I get to around eight hundred yards the floppy fish crap starts. I chop the throttle and kick in a bit of rudder to bleed some speed E. I am now closing slower and waiting for him to slide into my sights. This is when the little warps start from side to side. I say the hell with it and pull back vertical to save whatever E I have left. So, my question is, do you see this as a Legitimate Maneuver or would you label this tard as the lowest of the citizens in Dweebsville. I think the latter of the two is appropriate. I only wish I had filmed the event so that I could expose who this dweeb is. If you have to resort to gaming the game crap to survive, It's a sure sign you need some serious help. Go hang out in the TA till you learn some legit ACM.  

Avid
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Shane on September 17, 2002, 08:19:52 AM
well last nite i came across a 10k jug that was alos kind fo flopping aorund, after shooting it down adn seeing 786151 as the handle i figured it was a newbie who still needed to tweak his joystick.

so.....  it's not always deliberate - shoot 'em down and see what their handle is before you bark at 'em.  or film...

:D
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: AvidMC on September 17, 2002, 08:59:53 AM
But Shane, I didn't bark at him because I didn't know who it was. But I can tell you that after I pulled vertical it was amazing how fast the floppy fish crap stopped as I was watching out the back of the cockpit. Now maybe it was just a coincidence, and maybe it was some poor noob that didn't know what he was doing, and maybe all the planets lined up the moment I went vertical and the Gods of noobdom laid there hands upon this fellows plane an stopped the uncontrolled spinning and warping.... Or more likely it was just another game the game butterin dweeb!!! That seams like the more likely answer since, after all, the planets don't even have to line up to make it so.

Avid
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Wilbus on September 17, 2002, 09:24:50 AM
To flip flop or deliberatly cause warps in any kind of way is dweebish, ugly, bad and just plain ***** up. It's taking advantages of the flaws of the game and internet connections and by doing so one only shows his own lack of skill.

It is cheating IMO.
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Turbot on September 17, 2002, 09:32:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
To flip flop or deliberatly cause warps in any kind of way is dweebish, ugly, bad and just plain ***** up. It's taking advantages of the flaws of the game and internet connections and by doing so one only shows his own lack of skill.

It is cheating IMO.


I am not at all convinced this is even possible (to do deliberately).  

I think more likely sometimes the connection problems don't show up really well until you are very close - so it MAY appear that it is being controlled.
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: gofaster on September 17, 2002, 09:39:55 AM
If he's wibbling and wobbling then he's not able to strafe your field or bomb your hangars.  He's also bleeding E at a horrible rate.  All you have to do is wait for him to stall and crash, and then you can collect the prox kill while still having a full ammo load. :)
Title: Re: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: T0J0 on September 17, 2002, 10:00:04 AM
I watch alot of pilots in the MA do alot of crap and the floppy fish manuever is alot less annoying than the HO issues.... OR the LA7 mobs ..... You never mentioned what plane you were flying?
 After reading this post I look forward to seeing the Floppy fish manuever....Hell I gonna run right out and try and figure out how to fish fly!!! Sounds kinda fun!! POp a cold one relax....enjoy the game and move on....

T0J0


Quote
Originally posted by AvidMC
I never do this but I have finally hit the whine threshold so here goes.

Last night I am flying down at A30 and I spot a low Mossie heading into the base. I roll over and dive on him. As I get to around eight hundred yards the floppy fish crap starts. I chop the throttle and kick in a bit of rudder to bleed some speed E. I am now closing slower and waiting for him to slide into my sights. This is when the little warps start from side to side. I say the hell with it and pull back vertical to save whatever E I have left. So, my question is, do you see this as a Legitimate Maneuver or would you label this tard as the lowest of the citizens in Dweebsville. I think the latter of the two is appropriate. I only wish I had filmed the event so that I could expose who this dweeb is. If you have to resort to gaming the game crap to survive, It's a sure sign you need some serious help. Go hang out in the TA till you learn some legit ACM.  

Avid
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: SlapShot on September 17, 2002, 10:24:30 AM
This manuver is deliberate and DWEEBISH and has nothing to do with connect/lag. I get consistently high frame rates and can easily distinguish between lag and the "floppy fish", and what AvidMC is describing is NOT lag. These guys are "gaming the game" .. no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

The biggest perpetrator's of the "floppy fish/stick Stirrin" manuver I have found are 109s, 190s and occasionally P47s. Once you get on their six and send a few rounds into them, the floppin starts and if you are not in a LA-7 or another fast plane, this "floppin" can continue, without serious degradation in E, until they extend.

This type of flying I would think is beyond what the human body could endure and I could almost bet the ranch that it was never used in RL nor is it taught in any air combat schooling. In RL you might be able to get away with a few wild jinks, but to continue sustained jinking like that ... I don't think so.

I would like to see (somehow) HiTech put some sort of redout/backout type consequence when the flight controls are used wildly to create such manuvers.
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: SKurj on September 17, 2002, 10:41:26 AM
As you get closer to the con, you receive more positional updates from him.  I do not know at what range update frequency hits the max, but at range he may easily have appeared smoother....

And any yank and bank would have increased the effect up close if he had a poor connect.  (or maybe it was your end at that time.....  just cause netstat shows flat doesn't mean your conn is fine, we've all learned that lesson by now I think)

I highly doubt many if any players are tampering with their connection on purpose.

I am not saying its right or wrong +) just suggesting some causes..


SKurj
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Arfann on September 17, 2002, 10:41:42 AM
All you dorky dweebs listen up!  When these heros dive on you with lots of e just hold it straight and level so they can shoot ya. Whatever you do, don't evade or turn in to them (Lessen ya wanna be called a HO dweeb!).  Look. . . I say look at me when I'm a talkin to ya, son. Watcha flying low and slow for in that Mossie anyway?  Probably headin' ta kamikazi someone's favorite hangar.  Ya best start flyin' the way these here experienced aviators want ya to or get outta Dodge! They ARE paying yer $15, right?
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Masherbrum on September 17, 2002, 10:51:13 AM
I wonder when I was in a G-10, inverted, doing 80, was I flopping like la fish, or making someone work for a kill?  

Arfann, :D

Foghorn Leghorn rules.  

Karaya2
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: AvidMC on September 17, 2002, 11:01:28 AM
Tojo - I was in a P-47 D25.

Avid
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Wlfgng on September 17, 2002, 11:10:17 AM
seems like to diametrically opposed types of gamers here.

the 'realism' type that likes the sim aspect

and the game types that want to shoot and be shot at regardless of realism



doubt the two will ever agree.
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: MrLars on September 17, 2002, 11:15:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
To flip flop or deliberatly cause warps in any kind of way is dweebish, ugly, bad and just plain ***** up. It's taking advantages of the flaws of the game and internet connections and by doing so one only shows his own lack of skill.

It is cheating IMO.


Sorry Wilbus...spelling cops here,

Thats *****(*) up..

Watch it bud ;)
Title: Re: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: MWHUN on September 17, 2002, 11:59:11 AM
Okay, I’m new so bare with me...
I have brought up this question a while back about the floppy wobble effect that I was seeing by certain pilots.  I now believe that there are 2 types of floppy moves that are being utilized -but they may be being confused.  Initially before I really started to compare them they looked almost identical.

There is a floppy move that I have encountered where I think it is a combination of a very quick scissor like moves with rudder kicks to produce a wobble/floppy effect-there is however a clear flight path visible while he is wobbling –it still bleeds E and there are several ways to counter it even if you have horrible aim.  Overall they are trying to get you to overshoot or get frustrated with your aim and possibly have to avoid a collision… I’ll just chalk this up to “evasives” and I can live with this move…

Then there is another floppy move that looks very much like the one I described above with one HUGE exception.  The fighter’s flight path does not correspond to the direction of where his nose is pointing.  He is wobbling all over and it is VERY difficult to get a clean shot because there is no way to judge the flight path—best thing to do is hang back on his 6 while he blows so much E that he is a brick falling to earth.  This is the “lame” move that is just some pilot exploiting internet lag. :mad:

Quote
Originally posted by AvidMC
I never do this but I have finally hit the whine threshold so here goes.

Last night I am flying down at A30 and I spot a low Mossie heading into the base. I roll over and dive on him. As I get to around eight hundred yards the floppy fish crap starts.

Avid

Regardless of which move he was doing I would have shredded that low giant energy less crate…:D :D :D :D

Feedback welcome…
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Kweassa on September 17, 2002, 07:58:15 PM
The worst part of this is that there is no way for the accused person to find out if the accusations are true. 190 pilots will have to risk facing this accusation every time they try any sort of scissors, and so will 109 pilots. I'm not saying this is any sort of conspiracy against the LW, just that those two planes are most commonly accused of.

 There could be truly "innocent perpetrators", there could be "guilty dweebs", and there could be "wrongfully accused".

 There was this one case I was facing a P-51D behind me in a 190D-9 where I was accused of being a "stick stirrer". Basically, all I did was do a scissors in a figure-8 fashion which I call  "falling leaf".. to minimize E-loss and to give a unpredictable flight path.

 All through this maneuver I was watching the P-51 behind me, and my stick inputs basically aimed to match the attacker's movement. He wants a guns solution, I roll out of the way, 180 degrees opposite to the angle of his wings. He rolls for me again, I continue the roll, change flight path, and get out of the way again. How fast these rolls come out is totally defined by the fashion the attacker pursues me, and finally I got him to overshoot.

 The next message I get is "nice stick stirring."

 ..

 Now in this case, it is possible that I could be an "innocent perpetrator". Either that or I'm "wrongfully accused", because I sure as hell wasn't a "guilty dweeb". I tried explain to him I wasn't "stirring" my stick in anyway, and basically all I did was a "figure-8 roll". He keeps insisting that is the proof of stick-stirring, "moving stick into figure 8 - stick stirring", when in truth the figure-8 rolls come out with just two stick inputs - left and right.

 Whatever it was, it denied him aim and made him overshoot. So, am I doing the micro-warps? Or is the attacker being an arse? I have no idea.  I suggested he film me if he sees me doing it again and send it to me, because I really have no way of knowing if what he accused is true or not - and that sucks!
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: palef on September 17, 2002, 08:15:46 PM
O for Cod's sake.

If you don't stay still for some hero to shoot you down, you're cheating.

Good call.

This thread is pretty damn close to a Channel 1 fishing trip IMO.

palef
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: AvidMC on September 17, 2002, 08:58:56 PM
Jesh!!!! Look what I started. Okay, as for a rolling scissor, or figure 8, I have seen that maneuver, I have been killed by that maneuver and I have killed guys using that maneuver. It is one of the few maneuvers that an aircraft with a solid roll rate can use against a turn fighter.  It is completely different from the floppy fish game. As it was stated in an earlier post in a rolling scissor the aircraft will continue to fly in the same position that the nose is pointing. With the ole fish game the aircraft is all over the place in attitudes that are just unnatural. Now maybe this is a lag issue and I will accept that as a possible solution. But sure as hell ain't a scissor.

Avid aka Mackerel hunter
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Puck on September 17, 2002, 09:26:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

Basically, all I did was do a scissors in a figure-8 fashion which I call  "falling leaf".. to minimize E-loss and to give a unpredictable flight path.

 


I do the same thing, though I'll mix that in with the more conventional reversals in a sissors, just so the dweeb behind me won't know (for sure) what my next reversal will be.

I keep channel one squelched, so I don't know if anyone has called me a stick stirrer, and frankly I don't give a crap.  I've never intentionally induced warp or lag or anything else, other than a spoiled guns solution on the nincompoop behind me, and if they want to think otherwise that's a pity but there's nothing I can do about it.  :rolleyes:
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: JB73 on September 17, 2002, 11:44:06 PM
<-- was called a stick stirrer once... dont even truly know what that is lol

im almost always ina 190-d9 and my roll rate is the only thing i have to keep me alive against the spits and la7's. when im low and slow i wish i knew the stuff kewassa knows.. (ive chased him and he's done these things)

back to topic... ive found that if i got inverted and use rudder to point my nose then roll out of it to head that direction i can evade some lesser guns. of course there is more to manuevering.. all im trying to do is stay alive till somone can clear my 6.

as far as ACM's go i know very little of actual termonology and how it corresponds to what im doing. also im not sure what you all are talking about as far as the " what a RL pilot could handle"

i thought the flight model here was supposed to be quite good... blakouts / redouts / stalls and such.

also wouldnt a stick stirrer get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message?

anyway thats my thoughts
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Mino on September 18, 2002, 01:26:16 AM
The roll warp, or flip-flop warp is inherent to the game.  

Some will use it as feature, others use un-knowingly to prevent getting shot down.

Get over it....
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: J_A_B on September 18, 2002, 02:32:35 AM
My thought on the "fish flop" is as follows:

Guys do perfectly legit evasives...

that unfortunately the Internet can't keep up with very well....

so on the attacker's FE the perfectly legit evasives are turned into "fish flops".

In the "fish flop" the plane still "flops" in a semi-predictable flight path, which is why I suspect it's nothing more than an Internet-perverted evasive maneuver.   True "stick stirring" results in a plane randomly warping all over the place, and hasn't been very evident in AH since the "dont move your controls so rapidly" feature was added.  I only see the effects of "Stick stirring" when one of the individual connections is suspect, rather then the general netlag that IMO causes the "fish flop".

J_A_B
Title: OK OK
Post by: fullback on September 18, 2002, 02:38:34 AM
I think I got it now...

You saddle up to some silly, slick, stick-stirring sop, who ceases to stop stirring his stupid stick and slip-slide his sorry, self-centered, stinkin' six into your sight center. :p
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Duedel on September 18, 2002, 02:50:05 AM
Keep still u bloody dweeb so i can shoot u down!

When I'm in a 190 and i have someone at my six I'll do whatever I can do to not get killed! This involves very little scissors, yaws, rolling scissors and so on. This doesnt mean that I'm stick stirring cause all moves will be smooth to hold my E state. For the bogey at my 6 this surely cthis ould look like a floppy fish but thats OK for me CAUSE THIS IS A GAME AND NOT RL!

If u encounter a bogey who's micro warping like hell (this doesnt mean its intentional) grab alt and get E and kill him in a few passes or simply disengage.

BTW There is nothing more childish than posting someones name at the BB cause he does strange funny things.
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: rv6 on September 18, 2002, 06:27:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JB73
<-- .. also im not sure what you all are talking about as far as the " what a RL pilot could handle"

i thought the flight model here was supposed to be quite good... blakouts / redouts / stalls and such.

also wouldnt a stick stirrer get the "dont move your controls so rapidly" message?


An answer, and a question re: the above.

In fast moving fighter-type planes (ie: a pair of Marchetti-SF250's, aka: RL Pilots), playing laser-tag.. you sure can do a "stick stir" with no ugly side effects other than mega-disorientation, if you are the stirrer (being shot at).

Only prolonged hard G will put you under & out..

If you're the stirree (doing the shooting), those little rapid stick movements, when viewed from the rear at about 150 yards is almost imperceptable.. and certainly presents no defensive challenge, as the plane continues straight ahead.  You (the stirree) simply press the trigger & saturate the area (straight ahead).  End of fight.

A question in Virtual stick-stirring?
I'd never heard of it before reading herein.  Tried it last night while alone over the ocean, and in a 45 degree dive.  A message came on screen  "Do not move your stick so abruptly!"  (or sumptin' like that).  Then,, the sticks' control seemed to be nill!!  I augered.

Ergo, when you jiggle the stick so much that the message appears,, is this an inherant "limiter" to keep you from doing it more?  I sure didn't hit compressability during that dive.. ? Hmm?

Thanks,

RV6 ~
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Vermillion on September 18, 2002, 07:03:10 AM
The sensitivity of the anti-stick stirring routine was turned down after numerous complaints from people with crappy quality joysticks that spiked all the time, and got the message.

So no, the routine does not work as effectively as it use to (or in my opinon as it was originally designed too do) to stop this trash.
Title: KWEASSA
Post by: Steve on September 18, 2002, 04:01:16 PM
I remember that night!  I was behind the pony who over shot you.  I managed to shoot ya down, but only after getting a lucky guess on where you'd dodge to next..spectacular evasives! The pony that over shot you was swearing you stirred your stick..I just saw some jinkin with a twist..but you added some negative G stuff that really threw me off so maybe that is what he thought was stick stirrin.  In fact, I assumed the guy knew what he was talkin about until a couple grey beards nicely cleared things up for me...unfortunately your accuser didn't want to hear it.  I have seen the strange (plane is not flying in the direction its nose is pointing) thing.  Sage players in the game inform me that this is most often connect related.  Anyway, in hindsight, that night I saw a veteran pilot schooling a couple kids in the art of evasives.  Nice job.  

Steve
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Kweassa on September 18, 2002, 07:26:25 PM
Steve, please do tell him I have no hard feelings.

 I know how competitive flight sim gamers can be, and I've traded word-punches even with you! But to parody a certain movie line; "What happend on that day, stays on that day."

 I bear no grudge against any verbal competitions I face lest it be something purely unforgivable such as racial remarks and etc. As I wrote in my previous post, while I feel what I did was totally legit, I do admit I can't be quite so sure on what he saw me doing on his FE , and that disturbs me.

 I hope he understands that I posted the instance as an explanation on these general affairs, not in anyway to counter-accuse or criticize his comment.
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: T0J0 on September 19, 2002, 07:26:09 AM
I latched on to the Six of what I think was the Fish Flop manuever...LOL
 Pretty impressive manuever indeed... There seems to be a point that the plane always comes back too...You should see it after a few flops...Aim at the central point and the fish will hit your bullet stream... Unless you are short on ammo...Be patient... I had never seen anyone do it until the other day or wasn't looking for it until after I read the post... At first I didn't know how to deal with it... But after wasteing what little ammo I had, was down to a couple of squeezes... Got the Tard...
  Still prefer the flish flop over the HO....

T0J0
Title: Legitimate Maneuver or butterin Dweeb??
Post by: Reschke on September 19, 2002, 10:11:12 AM
Avid you did the right thing by pulling off and not overshooting the target. Next time though just re-engage and kill him later.

Just remember that sometimes these "fluid" evasion manuevers get garbled by the traffic passing over the internet and don't always translate into what they are supposed to be on someone else's Front End of the game.

Peace!
Title: Re: OK OK
Post by: slimm50 on September 19, 2002, 04:37:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by fullback
I think I got it now...

You saddle up to some silly, slick, stick-stirring sop, who ceases to stop stirring his stupid stick and slip-slide his sorry, self-centered, stinkin' six into your sight center. :p


Heheheh, fullback, I like yer aliteration, here. (not sure if i spelled that right)