Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on September 17, 2002, 11:07:15 AM
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Earlier, Lazs said that P51/La7 was the only safe option in the MA. And I see his point. However, I like to try different planes and try to get an insight into what they would be like in the real WW2.
The main difference with the P47s in AH is that they have modelled that paddle prop, which was highly praised by Colonel F. Gabreski in his biography. In AH, the P47 Booms AND Zooms! I’ve been having a lot of fun in that, both for jabo but also as a fighter. I seem to get a reasonable k/d with it, which means that YOU can too. But Lazs is right. You have to remember that you’re in the MA, where the nearest enemy base is 5 mins away. Take too long in a 1-to-1 fight, or a 1-to-2, and some knucklehead will come along in a P51 having climbed to get a 10K alt advantage. :rolleyes: But that’s OK. I’ll take my lumps in the MA :(
Of the P47 D variants, Gabby flew the D11 for the most part, but later flew the D25 which he liked the best. In the particular passage of his book where he talks about that, he doesn’t even mention the D30.
If ever you get bored with your current ride, give the Jug a try.
I met the late Col. “Gabby” Gabreski a couple of years ago, and bought his book which he signed for me. He was a nice old stick, but still gritty and firm. I wish there were more like him alive today.
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Thats cool as hell Beet1e.:D
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beetle. I hope you stay a convert:D
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The Jug hah! What a POS. I wouldnt be caught ded in it...
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P47 Sucks (TM)!:o
BTW, Gabby never flew the D30, he ditched in his D25, isn't it?
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56th Fighter Group Zemkes Wolfpack
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Pollock 's right!!! Only a complete moron would fly a Jug in the MA. You're much better off grabin a N1k and shooting head on at 1100 yards.
Avid
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AvidMC!
Pollock 's right!!! Only a complete moron would fly a Jug in the MA. You're much better off grabin a N1k and shooting head on at 1100 yards.
LOL! You gave me a horrible turn when you said that, because there really are people in AH who would think exactly that. :( Only when I saw your squad signature did I see the joke - ROFL! :D
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You should check our P47 stats Beetle, you may have a kick out of them :D
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56th Fighter Group Zemkes Wolfpack
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
You should check our P47 stats Beetle, you may have a kick out of them :D
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56th Fighter Group Zemkes Wolfpack
Jug dweeb. :D
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P47.......what crap!!!!
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Meh, P-47's are only good for suicide=jabo runs on the CV group. Every body knows that! You can safely ignore enemy P-47s in the area, they are no threat to superior fighters. And oh yeah, you don't need any E to fight vs. a Jug... just engage them from a lower alt all the time, otherwise there is no challenge.
;)
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Question:
What I don't understand is the comment of the late Robert Johnson so often mentioned that;
"The P-47, with its massive weight purely excelled in zoom climbs, but would meet trouble when the competition became something about sustained climb rates"
I saw this comment on Johnson's mock-combat with a Spitfire, and in Johnson's interviews, too.
Does this mean the P-47, at the start of the zoom climb, would gain tremendous distance over an enemy plane, but the enemy would catch up as it reaches the limit of the zoom-sequence? If so, I don't think that can be described as "great zoom climb" unless the P-47 had a massive E advantage in the first place.. and I wonder how that fact ever helped with the Jug in actual combat.
Gosh, if somebody like Johnson says so, its probably true, but I'm not getting the point.. can anyone clarify this for me?
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Kweassa--
The jug holds its smash well. Its the theory that its pretty hard to slow down a bunch of fast moving weight:)
If you are diving at 500 MPH and pull up, you can expect that AC to zoom for quite a distance.
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"Zoom" is different from sustained climb regardless of how much speed you start with.
A high drag/lift aircraft may have an enormous sustained rate of climb, but the high drag and lift may hamper its ability to trade speed and altitude at will.
Simple example - take a brick and a wad of paper. The brick is the jug and the paper is the spit. Toss both upwards at 20 mph. The brick will "zoom" a certain distance, the paper will "zoom" a somewhat shorter distance.
This example is extreme in that neither the brick nor the paper have a sustained climb ability, but it doesn't take much of an imagination or even complex math to extrapolate that a plane that flies like a brick (P-47) may zoom better than a plane that has the drag/weight characteristics of a wad of paper (spitfire). The P-47 may have a better zoom, better dive acceleration, and even higher top speed depending on drag and horsepower, but the spit being optimized for turning performance with lower weight and higher lift will likely have a better sustained climb.
So BOTH historical accounts are likely correct and the practical application of either performance characteristic is a matter of timing. The P-47 driver may only have a moment in which his superior zoom provides an advantage. Wait too short of a time and you haven't fully exploited the better zoom, but wait too long and the spit is beyond "zoom" and is simply using it's climb rate advantage to eat away at the Jug's already-used zoom advantage.
Climb rate at high speed may however be a different story. Take a spit flying at max sustained level speed and a jug climbing at that same speed, and you find the corner of the envelope that the Jug can actually outclimb the spit. The P-51 in AH is outstanding in this regard (look at climb rates at 150, 200, 250, 300, and 350 knots and you'll see what I mean) and the Jug also has some advantage over slower but typically "better climbing" aircraft.
Of course, using that advantage makes you look like a running coward, but war is hell...
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Question:
Does this mean the P-47, at the start of the zoom climb, would gain tremendous distance over an enemy plane, but the enemy would catch up as it reaches the limit of the zoom-sequence? If so, I don't think that can be described as "great zoom climb" unless the P-47 had a massive E advantage in the first place.. and I wonder how that fact ever helped with the Jug in actual combat.
Gosh, if somebody like Johnson says so, its probably true, but I'm not getting the point.. can anyone clarify this for me?
Properly executed, by the time they start gaining in the climb, your jug is headed straight down (right at them) with all 8 guns blazing. :)
curly
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Kweassa - Eagl has alread covered much of the reason for the P47 zoom ability. In addition to that is the paddle prop, to which there are multiple references in Gabreski's book. I don't think this prop was used on earlier P47s (?) but he really swooned about it on the P47D. I think it was he who said that this prop would give him an extra 1000ft of zoom, and he could really hang the aircraft on it. I can check this out, but I don't have time to do it today - sorry.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Question:
What I don't understand is the comment of the late Robert Johnson so often mentioned that;
"The P-47, with its massive weight purely excelled in zoom climbs, but would meet trouble when the competition became something about sustained climb rates"
I saw this comment on Johnson's mock-combat with a Spitfire, and in Johnson's interviews, too.
Does this mean the P-47, at the start of the zoom climb, would gain tremendous distance over an enemy plane, but the enemy would catch up as it reaches the limit of the zoom-sequence? If so, I don't think that can be described as "great zoom climb" unless the P-47 had a massive E advantage in the first place.. and I wonder how that fact ever helped with the Jug in actual combat.
Gosh, if somebody like Johnson says so, its probably true, but I'm not getting the point.. can anyone clarify this for me?
Johnson also said that after the Jugs were fitted with the 4 bladed paddle props they were able to not only out zoom the spits but maintain a higher sustained rate of climb as well.
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In AH, anything outdives the P47 in a wings level dive.:confused:
If you are at 20k and even a 109 starts a dive, you catch up with him on the deck 2 sectors later. If it's a FW, he's gone, if it's a spit5 following you, he will still be 500y your six upon reaching the deck.
joy:D
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Originally posted by AKIron
Johnson also said that after the Jugs were fitted with the 4 bladed paddle props they were able to not only out zoom the spits but maintain a higher sustained rate of climb as well.
Yeah, Johnson's Jug would do that. Don't forget many of these guys had crew chiefs who modded their planes for increased performance, especially with the D model P-47. Johnson's Jug would pull much more boost than your factory Jug, so it would accellerate, climb, and dive better than what we have in AH. Pratt & Whitney, I believe, even sent guys around to the squadrons showing the wrenches how to make some of these mods once they knew the engines could handle it. Maybe Widewing or one of the other history buffs will jump in here and fill in the details, but you see my point.
I would love to see a "field mod" Jug as a perk option. That or just give me my 47-M or N already! :)