Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Thunder on March 17, 2001, 09:28:00 PM
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I am a real life pilot and one thing that is a little different is landing and taking of without wind.
IDEA...
Feature 1 : A Pilot within 2 sectors of a field could radio tower with .dot command (ie .wind 24) and a text message would come up. (ie Wind 15kts 225 ). This could be used for take off or landing.
Feature 2 : a wind working windsock at each field for real time wind conditions.
Feature 3 : Smudge pots for Night time landings and take offs.
Is this of any interest or not.
Comments ??
Thunder
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Sounds cool... but, is wind that much of a factor down on the ground?
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
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I don't think wind is a factor down low as the smoke always seems to rise straight up. But as you climb out and hit the wind shear, it is. If that wind was blowing at field level, you'd definitely need windsocks or you would prolly roll off the end of the runway if you landed downwind.
The plus is the shorter takeoff roll or landing rollout you'd have into the wind.
But I'd bet the majority wouldn't like it - at the medium and large fields (actually all), you'd have the possibility for strong crosswind landings and just another thing for newbies to learn. Unfortunately.
I'd love wind, socks, and blowing smoke.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 03-17-2001).]
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You're insane man!!!!
I like it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Wif is allways a factor low or high it will effect the entire airplane. Down low on a runway if you have a 20knot wind come stright at you while landing your plane would float for long time until speed is so low that it falls. wind also make takoff shorter. Wind blowing at you helps you on take off and landings by decreasing the speed you need. That why I said above you would float you dont need as much flaps and airspeed (this is calle ground effect) It dont take 20knots to get ground effect just used it for the numbers. control tower would be nice espeically if it gave you field under attack messages.
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A bit incorrect INDN. All wind does is change the aircraft speed in relation to the ground. The plane itself will behave the same at a given airspeed. Wind speed has little if any effect on ground effect - that is just the trapping of the wingtip vortices which makes the plane think it has a longer span / higher aspect ratio wing. I've never seen a discussion of wind or windspeed in any discussion of ground effect.
A headwind does not cause a plane to float.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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But wouldn't the wind that would really matter for take-off/landing be a wind that blows across the runway?
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I spent 2 1/2 years at Langley Airforce base working on Army planes. The pilots allways complained about the ground effect coming off the Chesapeak bay right down the runway. So if you never heard of ground effect look it up from people who have experienced it. Wind does effect the way aplane flys less speed is distant is need to take off with head wind and less stopping distances also. Maybe a Cessna 150 is not effected by wind but im sure it is but other planes air heaviliy effected. We have fixed many planes that were effected on landing by wind. So if you are a sunday pilot look up the facts. You ever hear of flaps they trap alot of air under the wings. You are correct about airspeed thought I said that, WWII planes used a pitot static sytem to get their airspeed and a head wind will make it apear faster then it realy is, yes it will fly the same until said wind dies down. Cross wind will make landings and takeoffs harder. Windshear is another topic. Wind coming form behind is going to have greater ground speed which would if modeled effect the bombers. Wind in the new storm would effect the plane flight model because it would swirl. Wind will effect the plane because wind never just blows straight or steady. Now that is why I say wind effects the entire plane. Not going into the flight but just the wind alone I know that the airspeed is the same. Tail wind on takeoff and landings would increase the roll out and also need more power to take off, you have to add to the speed of the wind, in the speed of the airplane. I do see where I said that it decrease the speed needed for takeoff and landings should have said ground speed not indicated. Remeber Flaps increase lift and lower speed for t/o and landings they also trp air when close top ground. most of these planes are low wing and would trap air under wings with flaps down. Also remeber that wind is not the same at all altitudes it could be stronger on ground the even 1000ft up. If someone wants more info there are good tech sheets in nasa data bases. I do not care to get in a big argument or tech discussion on this.
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Gentleman,
I have been flying since 1961 and INDN's post is pretty much correct. My experience with float has more to do with outside air temperature and altitude of feild. You experience more float upon landing with higher outside temperatures at lower elevations. Landings at higher elevations have less float at same outside air temperature. Weight, Wind, Temperature, Atmospheric pressure, Thrust all have effects on take offs and landings.
Thats why they point the CV into the wind in the first place hehe. There is a big effect.. I just wondered what everyone thought of modeling it and having a way to know what it was.
Salute,
Thunder
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 03-18-2001).]
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I quote from the Private Pilot Manual - in Chapter 1:
Ground Effect
When an airplane wing operates within a wingspan distance above the ground, induced drag is significantly reduced. Within this height above the ground, the strength of wingtip vortices and the wing downwash is significantly reduced, since these forces are restricted in downward movement.
Therefore, as the aircraft nears the ground, drag effects are reduced rapidly; just before touchdown drag can be decreased as much as 40%. The low-wing airplane is more subject to ground effect than mid- or high-wing airplanes because the wing is closer to the ground.
Further:
Wind
Wind direction and velocity affect takeoff performance. For example, a headwind shortens the takeoff run, while crosswinds, and especially tailwinds, lengthen the takeoff roll and reduce the subsequent angle of climb. Decreased controllability and takeoff performance can make crosswind takeoffs undesirable and downwind takeoffs hazardous.
It doesn't say anything about wind causing or increasing ground effect. But then it doesn't say anything about wind making the hamburgers better at the aiport cafeteria either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It does however clearly state that a headwind decreases the takeoff roll. Ground affect doesn't care if the plane is taking off or landing - it only cares how close the plane is to the ground. That's why some planes could only fly *in* ground effect. Therefore, the effect of a headwind is to decrease the distance required to land. It isn't quoted in the above passages, but it is in every text and INDN even states this in his response telling me I'm wrong.
INDN, you can't have it both ways. Ground effect tends to lengthen the distance required to land - not shorten it. You can't then tell me that a wind coming down the runway causes ground effect but also shortens the distance. Your logic is just wrong.
Wind will/can cause turbulence, however, and maybe the pilots were referring to rougher than normal landing conditions and not to the tendency of the airplane to float. Air coming across water would also tend to be more humid and therefore less dense - meaning lower performance and faster speeds required for takeoff or landing which would extend distances. But it isn't "ground effect".
There is no need to cloud the issue with wind shear, flaps, or anything of the sort. I would be very interested in hearing how a wind blowing down the runway causes ground effect, however. Please feel free to quote whatever references you have available.
And Thunder, we aren't density altitude here either. We are talking about a wind coming down the runway causing a plane to float. No more. No less. Not thrust. Not weight. Not temperature. No comparisons between high and low airports. Certainly all of the above affect takeoff and landing but aren't the issue.
Prove me wrong and I'll shut up - but I don't think you'll be able to. Either of you.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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FYI- Float is Ground Effect. Whenever a wing comes within half a wingspan of the ground/water the aircraft will experience 'Ground Effect/Float'. This effect basically is the result of the downwash (Which is related to the tip vortices) being effectively cut in half in ground effect. This means the induced drag is reduced approximately by one half (On average). Since lift and drag are obviously affected by air density, altitude will have a bearing on this. Wind will come into effect in terms of the relative angle of the wind wrt the runway heading (As you guys know) which means you have to crab the aircraft in or bank it into the wind. The 'Float' will seem to be longer if you are landing with the wind (Tailwind) since, as stated by Pakrat, the aircraft flys wrt the wind not the ground. If you land into a headwind the aircraft won't seem to float as long. It's just a matter of summing the velocity vectors.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is always easier than craftmanship.'
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 03-18-2001).]
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Uhh, Aces High has 15 individual wind "layers" in 2000ft blocks from s/l up to 30k+. You can set the wind's speed, rise and direction.
Set a 127mph wind and takeoff into it... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I am a student pilot and I would really like this to be implemented not only to the coolness factor but it helps me to control my aircraft better while landing and to decrease my landing distance to this forever E retaiinng aircraft(really difficult to stall them) . Also I would want the flaps not to autoretract have flap damage as you would have gear damage after you go above a certain speed and fer chris's sake increase the drag factor on the flaps.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
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With a 20 knot head wind and 170 indicated how fast are you going. You claim to be a pilot (packrat) so if you have 10 knots of wind blowing straight down the runway and your ground speed is higher then your landing speed should be do you use less flaps or pucnh it into the runway. Most planes I work on now use 40 degrees of flaps for normal landings. Weight, speed and wind can and do change that.
If you read what I wrote first I said that wind can increase ground effect which lowers the speed to land, BUT if you come in at the normal speed for landing not indicated you would be to fast and take longer to stop and even get the plane on the ground. If the wind stops blowing you can fall to the ground if there is not enough room to regain the airspeed.
"Ground effect -AN increase in lift of an aerodynamic flying machine (an airplane or helicopter) that is flying very near the ground.
this additional lift is caused by a distortionof the airflow that produces an increase angle of attack.
Ground effect disapears when the flying machine is about a half wing span or half rotor span above the ground."
ASA dictionary of aeronautical terms.
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CLASSSSSSSSSSSSSS
CLASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSS
CLASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(in voice of Cheech and Chong)
Lets get back to the subject instead of an aurgument over ground effect and floating.
I believ HT has wind modeled all he has to do is turn it on. He doesnt as alot of people start squeaking when he does. Me I like the idea and would love the oppertunity to take off and land in a diffrent crosswinds and such. Anything to add to the effect and make me a better virtual pilot the better.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!!1
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surface winds were on until the PT boat came out.
There are still winds at alt (anyone else notice the nasty 12k wind shear).
Ground effect has been modelled since late beta -- if you doubt it, try landing in some other sim that doesn't have it.
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As a SEL pilot, I would love to see wind as a factor of flight, takeoffs, and landings.
It would teach people to land into the wind, and would also teach them what happens when landing down wind. As people over shoot the runway on the down wind landing, the focus would be to land into the wind for a more shorter roll out. In an emergency the plan is still to get the plane on the runway, preferably with the wheels still intact. I would also like to see friendly collisions, but I sure that has been whipped about too.
Just 2 cents.
Thorns
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Originally posted by INDN:
If you read what I wrote first I said that wind can increase ground effect which lowers the speed to land, BUT if you come in at the normal speed for landing not indicated you would be to fast and take longer to stop and even get the plane on the ground. If the wind stops blowing you can fall to the ground if there is not enough room to regain the airspeed.
This is just getting silly. Increasing ground effect does not cause a plane to land shorter. That is just a contradiction and misuse of standard terminology.
An airplane only knows how fast it is flying through the air. It has an AIRSPEED indicator. (With GPS you also know actual ground speed but for this discussion that doesn't matter.)
Wind does not increase ground effect. What you seem to be talking about is the normal precaution of landing at slightly higher speed when you have a strong headwind. Actually what you are doing is giving yourself a buffer against gusts and the wind temporarily dying leaving the plane with less than enough airspeed, possibly producing a stall low to ground, etc.
You also seem confused when you say "BUT if you come in at the normal speed for landing not indicated you would be to fast and take longer to stop and even get the plane on the ground".
Even if you were to decide to always land at the same groundspeed (foolish), you will still stop shorter due to the headwind. It doesn't make sense to always land at the same ground speed - air speed is what matters.
No matter how you slice it, a headwind will *decrease* the distance required to land and this is not ground effect.
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PakRat
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://home.att.net/~ahpakrat/pakrat.jpg)
"Juggies, dance us back in history!"
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Last post on this issue. What do flaps do? Second I never said that ground effect decreases stopping distsnce wind does! Wind decreases take off roll! Ground effect in not there when on the ground! Read the discription adove. Wind effects the way you think while flying there for it effects the intire airplane does it not! This is not a BOEING 777 that does more thinking the the captain does! The subject was wind which can be trapped under the flaps and creat a cushion of air that will keep the plane floating while still moving forward causing you to fly the plane to the ground, I seen it happen been on planes the Captian said the plane did it then. It may not technically be the same but is the same feel!
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I've been posting for months in favor of wind effects at ground level, as well as weather at ground level. If I recall correctly I think HT said it was coming, just not right away...don't quote me though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
CRASH
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The thread was about tower enhancments.
I would like to be able to tell from the tower which fields lead to a hill and which do not. Either let me know as I look arround which direction I am facing or indicate on the launch selection interface obstructed or not.
I would like to have a place where I could observe the airspace above a field unobstucted. NO ROOF. Same for the carrier. Let us have a resonable observation point.
The most realisitic would be to give us the turrent interface at the tower. Then we could have all degrees of movement and usefull zoom.
So a turrent interface for the tower(that would give us the direction info anyway.)
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anything that enhances realism is ok by me -
however
more people would be in favor of a change where - the second the turn on the game they are in a dense furball on someones six at 10k feet and every three kills a little noise goes off and they get a better gun and nitrous injection or invincibility or something....- i think it would be taken by most as a burden and be the cause of many a whine....
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What do flaps do?
Not relevant - but they increase the effective angle of attack (allows dropping nose - better vis), increase wing area (lift), increase undercamber (lift), increase drag (help slow the airplane).
Second I never said that ground effect decreases stopping distsnce wind does! Wind decreases take off roll!
Agreed
Ground effect in not there when on the ground!
Actually it is if the plane has an airspeed - even if stopped and there is a wind. The wing is more efficient and produces more lift and less drag. That is ground effect.
Wind effects the way you think while flying there for it effects the intire airplane does it not!
No it does not. This as an explanation for ground effect is ludicrous.
It may not technically be the same but is the same feel!
Bzzzt. If it isn't the same thing then it isn't the same thing. Period.
I don't think you quite understand the physics of flight. If you are a pilot, you should understand what is going on. Your life depends on it. A wind blowing down the runway does not cause or increase ground effect.
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I'm for implementing it
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EZDOC
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
(http://www1.jump.net/~cs3/sigs/une_sig.jpg)
[This message has been edited by ezdoc (edited 03-19-2001).]