Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: worr on September 19, 2002, 09:35:30 AM
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Anyone have some hard data on this?
Every resource I've considered states the A-4 was equipted with MW-50. There is a web site with details that states it was only ready at the factory, but not equipped in the field. It also states that the MW-50 wasn't used until the A-8 series. However, the supposedly author of that article wrote back to me and said he never wrote that piece. Also, the A-8 used the GM-1 system for boost.
The other suggested authors have yet to respond.
Anyone have hard data on this?
Worr, out
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190a-8 used mw50 the a4 was tested but it was never operational.
mw 50 was water methenol, (methonal keep the water from freezing) and was an anti-detonator. It cooled the eng allowing for higher boost pressure. It was used at lower alts.
GM-1 was nitros and used at higher alt (above 6000m)
The ta152h-1 had gm-1
Someone researched this (naudet I think) and found that it was tested on the a4 but caused increased wear on the eng (degraded the spark plugs as well)
I have not being able to fing any proof of operational use of Mw50 on the A series until the a8.
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Wotan,
can you show your sources about MW50 systems mounted on 190A-8? The 190A-8 flight manual I own dont even mention MW50 but only the well known uprated engines from late-end 1944. AFAIK some 190A-8 had the MW50 but very few systems have been mounted on FW's, the most part being mounted on 109G.
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I have several sources in my library showing the A8 with GM-1 boost. Hence my skepicism about the MW-50 being pushed back from the A-4 to the A-8.
Worr, out
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Worr! Oink!
Good to see you here bud!
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Go here
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58652
that's what i found out about MW50 in the FW190A4
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Yep what Naudet found is about all there is. Naudet, Jochen, Gatt, and I have been searching for about 3 years for info on MW 50 in the Fw 190A. We still haven't found anything from a primary source.
I think at this point it's likely that an author somewhere made a mistake and typed MW 50 instead of GM-1, then other people referenced his book, and thus we have the continuing reports of MW 50 in the Fw 190A.
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Hey, leph. Thanks for the welcome. Oink! Oink! to War! :)
http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&postid=116880#post116880
The above is what led me here.
Naudet, it sounds like the 190A4 did in point of fact use the MW50 operationally.
However, according to your source it was limited to low alt missions....for FW 190A-4UA machines. Sounds like most of my match ups with the FW btw. :)
I've ordered the book that has been referenced. I must say 1970 is hardly recent! Also its only 28 pages....in pamplet style.
Also, I note the reason the MW50 wasn't used is not due to overheating which has been said by others in our thread...but rather weight and spark plug life.
Any word on the GM-1 system in the A-8? Why do sources list this as the boost system instead of the MW-50. As usually, genearal confusion on the hard numbers for the FW 190. :(
Worr, out
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Worr, Gatt sent me an Fw 190A-8 manual (which I have since donated to Vermillion) which details an optional GM-1 installation. It has climb and speed plotted vs. altitude for a GM-1 equipped aircraft. My copies of the charts are in storage, so maybe Verm can post one of his scans.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Worr, Gatt sent me an Fw 190A-8 manual (which I have since donated to Vermillion) which details an optional GM-1 installation. It has climb and speed plotted vs. altitude for a GM-1 equipped aircraft. My copies of the charts are in storage, so maybe Verm can post one of his scans.
Yes, such a scan would be helpful.
But here is the rub. We have a document (30 years old) that states the A4 used the MW50 in only limited operational use, and that the MW50 wasn't installed until the A8. Yet all manuals (who might just as well be copying one faulty source) have the GM-1 listed instead of the MW50.
Are we then to accept the first point and just disgard the second? Or does the first document just trump all documents?
See the confusion? :)
BTW...how is this done in Aces High? does the A5 have WEP?
Worr, out
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Originally posted by funkedup
I think at this point it's likely that an author somewhere made a mistake and typed MW 50 instead of GM-1, then other people referenced his book, and thus we have the continuing reports of MW 50 in the Fw 190A.
How about in the original language?
Most of the mistakes have come from translation. I can read some German...but not technical terms...which are usually complex (can you say built by committee?) in the German.
Worr, out
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my only sources were internet I have no documentation or manual showing the a8 to have used mw50
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Hey Worr!
Here is the chart that Funked referred too.
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-2.jpg
I have it scanned in at high resolution to keep it legible, so sorry if your on dialup.
It comes from an English translation of the following original document.
D.(Luft) T.2190A-8 -- "Fw190A-8 Aircraft Handbook (Effective July 1944) Issued September 1944." by Wittmer, Chief of Technical Services, Luftwaffe High Command, Nr.280513/44 (Re.E2V). Berlin, 5 September 1944
Under the powerplant section, it makes no mention of MW50, but does list the GM1 system. It also lists a "auxiliary fuel tank" of 115 liter or 25.3 gal capacity, that I commonly see referred too in other sources as containing MW50.
This schematic is also available (along with many other technical drawings) that shows no indication of MW50, but again, specifically references the GM1 system.
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-schematic-1.jpg
Under the section labeled "Engine Operating and Fuel Supply System. C. Emergency Power System" it states the following.
An engine emergency power system is provided for this aircraft...... The increased power is gained by bleeding air from the superchargerpressure line in which are located two nozzles connected in series..... (Verm: a detailed technical description of the bypass and nozzle system I'm leaving out in the interest of space) this causes the throttle valve to open wide, thereby increasing the maximum obtainable boost pressure, at 2700 rpm, from 1,42 ata to 1,58 ata at the low supercharger setting, and to 1,65 ata at the higher supercharger setting. The higher boost pressure results in increased fuel consumption, due to the greater quantity of fuel injected into the cyclinders.
Again no mention of a MW50 installed.
Funked also sent me the
"Handbook for the Fw190 Airplane" by Lt F.D. Van Wart, release date September 1946 Headquarters Air Material Command Wright Field Dayton Ohio. Technical Report No. F-TR-1102-ND
And it colloborates the translation of the German document.
If you really need a copy of these, I can probably get it for you, but it might take a while, between the two, its about 3 inches of photocopied materials. Get ahold of me too discuss it, my email is in my profile.
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For reference here are the performance charts for the A8 without GM1, and with Gondola's.
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-1.jpg
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-3.jpg
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Yeah, it's unlikely that any aircraft engaged with bomber interception would've used MW50. However, maybe on the eastern front, some F models might have?
There's mention of something to do with MW50 in this restoration project.
http://www.stormbirds.com/white1/restoration_diary.htm
Probably not much help, I know, but maybe the dudes doing the restoration know something?
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As for GM1, it was onlt used above the maximum boost altitude. Thus it was different on planes with different engines. 190 A's had 6000 meter or something like that, while the Ta152 had 10,700 meters before the GM1 was of any use.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
If you really need a copy of these, I can probably get it for you, but it might take a while, between the two, its about 3 inches of photocopied materials. Get ahold of me too discuss it, my email is in my profile.
Got anything on the A-4?
I don't need copies. You are only reinforcing my previous position. It is possible some low alt FW 190A8UA fighter bombers were equipted with the MW-50. That is possible. But I'm sure the GM-1 is the original factory equipment...hence it is always what is referenced to.
Remember too, the A-8 is only being mentioned in this other source in passing...and in the context of a discussion on the A-4 in the posture of a denial of other data. It seems to be out of place. Hence, questionable.
Worr, out
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There was one soviet test with captured a8. It had MW50 boost, reduced armament and removed bombrack.
So some were propably used at east front.
A-8s were rarely fitted with MW-50 afaik.
GM-1 was used more often in bomber interception (a-6, a-7 and a-8) IIRC.
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No, not really. I have one speed vs altitude chart for the A5 thats been posted here on this board in the past, but its hard to read and poor resolution.
I guess I was supporting Funked's statement that if the A8 did not commonly contain MW50, I would think it would be exceedingly rare, if not impossible, to find them installed on A4's. The only information on MW50 equipped A4's I've seen was the information posted by Naudet earlier in this thread.
Wilbus, did you ever get that A5 manual that you ordered from that online site that sells all the original german aircraft handbooks?
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Haven't ordered it yet, been too busy. Thinking about ordering teh A5 manual or the Ta152 manual...
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Wilbus,
Could you please list the site Verm has mentioned?
Thanks,
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here it is (http://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/)
They are all original and in german.
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Thx!
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WHat unit are those prices in on that web page? Is that the Euro?
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yes EURO , mostly same change rate like $ :)
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in JG26 TG of the Luftwaffe it has been mentioned that the A-8/R-4 used GM1 in mid '44. Don't know about MW50 though.