Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: R4M on April 29, 2001, 07:38:00 AM
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This is getting really old.....
More than 10 miles away from CV, I start seeing the acks firing on me. I do a 90 degree turn and start to move away.
10 seconds after levelling the plane on the new heading, a 88mm killed my engine. From 10 miles. In real life the Ack gunners would still be CORRECTING their aim to my new heading, and the rounds would be exploding on my previous heading's path.
This is getting old. Please PLEASE, get a realistic 88mm ack.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-29-2001).]
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Seconded (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsantas.tripod.com/stsanta.jpg)
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yeah, it should be a lot tougher to get thru the cv ack umbrella.
lazs
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10 mins flight, CV far far away, first BOOM, ping ... BOOOM. Two times in an hour, what a fun ...
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Agreed.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
10 mins flight, CV far far away, first BOOM, ping ... BOOOM. Two times in an hour, what a fun ...
Been there, suffered that, many times.
Even actually the AAA is not so acurate.
The main concern of Navy fleets is their air defense. If they could model in RL a 88mm, or even a SAM, as accurate as this, the problem is gone.
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Sorry disagree here totally. Im not getting hit at all in CV ack. Yes ack is reaching 15k but unless your asleep or on auto pilot, you wont get hit. very small movement of the stick and ack wont touch you.
I was 15k over a Knight CV a few nights ago in a p51. Took no hits and had some great fights against La7s & 190s that came up a4. Fighting was intence, but CV ack never hit me.
It also should be stronger from 5k under, i take little if no hits at this alt. Only when im 1.5 from CV at 2k do i start takin hit.
I know some are just to lazy to move the stick a bit while 15k over CV, on auto with feet up watchin TV, but dont spoil the fun for the rest of us whining about nothing.
Dog out...........
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Wardog I would like to see you fly thru it and film it please. Not that I don't believe you it is just we all have experienced the 1 ping from mars distance. I on a number of occasions have been killed by 1 ping ack, and of course below the 5k threshold as well. Ack is making the game boring IMO, along wiht 3 flight models flying around.
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[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-29-2001).]
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Besides the fact that the ack corrects for your evasives instantly, and besides that the ack has zero travel time, and in spite of the fact that it seems to hit fighters more often then bombers. Did I mention it can see through clouds and in the dark?
Why is it that the ack hits me from so far out that the puffs of black are the first signs theres an NME fleet nearby.
(http://home.tampabay.rr.com/strategy/YAK9.gif)
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Your right about Ack finding you through clouds.The fight i mentioned above started in clouds the black puffs all arounds me, so i called in the CVs position to the rest of Bishland and continued my fight, Was a fantastic fight. I did roll wing over to get exact position of CV looking through the clouds, but never saw it till the fight got low.
Kilt a Zeke, Spit,La7 and had a very long fight with a 190D9, turned out it was Mass.
Like i said, never took any ack hits from CV. I like it the way it is now and suggest you dont fight in it if ya dont like it. We lost our night time fights for allmost 9 moths because of whining, id hate to lose CV ack because of it to.
Dog out...................
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For every one time someone gets killed by CV ack, they've flown through it untouched 10 times.
Sorry, but ack is not too deadly... if anything it isn't deadly enough. There is a damn good reason people hit carrier groups with massive ammounts of planes. They were hoping that just a few would get through. And fighters didn't even go there... friendly or enemy.
Right now a B-17 or a Lanc can kill a cv 9 out of 10 times flying solo. A group of fighters can fly around with relative impunity. So someone occasionally gets destroyed... such is life so close to an enemy CV.
AKDejaVu
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There has to be a difference in the way it works on different systems. I too can't get close no matter how wild my evasives on occasion.
No, I have never flown through it in a fighter"untouched". At minimum I get pinged and minor dammage.
I think there is something other than what was planned going on here. Some seem to be able to fly through it with impunity, others cant. In the previous version of the ack it could be doged, but I have never been able to dodge it succesfully in a fighter yet.
Flying over it in a buff I can just do some mild zigzagging and never get pinged.
I just try to avoid it. Not whinning here, if that is the way they want it fine. I learn to live with it.
Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/markatsig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
What I said has nothing to do with what I am experiencing. I've been hit (never survived) several times, but I've also been missed several more.
I've seen groups of 10 planes hovering at a CV for 15 minutes. 1 of them was destroyed by ack (and boy did that guy whine about flak). That tells me that things aren't quite as bad as what I am reading here.
If some people do have it worse, then I believe it should go to the bug report forum.. and film should be made to support what you are seeing.
AKDejaVu
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who cares about who gets hit or not?
I fly in a 109 10 miles away from a fleet. I change heading 90. The acks follow my path and my change of course MILIMETRICALLY and INSTANTANEOUSLY, when they should take a minimum of 1 minute between readjusting the aim, starting to shoot again, and the round to arrive 10 miles away.
As it is now fleet ack is a joke. We have future tellers in the CV complement.
This is said to be a realistic sim. Then the acks should be realistic. As they are now, they are a realistic..joke.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-29-2001).]
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manouvering fighters should be near invulnerable to flak at distances beyond icon range
sorry but right now ack has the same chance of hitting a heavy bomber, in a level bomb run on the carrier as it does of hittingb a manouvering fighter this is *wrong*
Speed and variability of heading should make a differencein flak lethality
a lancaster going 250 knots level to bomb the fleet should be an EASY TARGET. Right now the lancaster almost *never* gets killed
thats wrongg, ack should be more lethal versus that type of target.
right now a friendly, engaged in a dogfight with an enemy at less than 100 yards.. ie not some bnz crap but areal fight, gets pinged by ack, boom. thats WRONG.
i also think that fleet gunners should not get range info on enemy aircraft, only plane type and color.
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The ack is screwed up. PERIOD!
HTC needs to read this and fix it. Unless this is what they want? If it is I would like to know why. Is this some kinda stupid game playability thing like the deadly buff guns?
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Wardog:
Yes ack is reaching 15k
hum was at 27K over bish fleet today and i lost one aileron due to acks...
i use zig zag and i think it must be very hard to aim a fighter at 27k which doesn't go straight...
ahh and how do they know i'm a enm ? does fleet have IFF ? maybe some of very strong binocular ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
nono
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ahh and how do they know i'm a enm ? does fleet have IFF ? maybe some of very strong binocular ?
They figure anyone at 27k deserves to die, friend or foe. I agree with em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Just 5 minutes ago ,in the middle of a fight, the two of us who were flying and fighting toghether (glasses and I) got killed in less than 20 seconds apart. by one ping hits. We were maneouvering hard (it was a fight, isnt it?). That is it, I see Glasses on the buffer saying that he has been hit by CV ack, and he is dead. Instantly I?m on tower too.
IT was CV automatic ack (You are killed message, no kill awarded)
All around us, four enemy F4Us were untouched.
This has gone 2 far...I'm thinking seriously in flying only one month of each two,when the map is the non-isles one until the CV ack resembles to something like "realistic". Because now is like "take off, fly to a zone and get killed by the instant-death ack(tm)"
BTW I got film.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 04-30-2001).]
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If flak is not discouraging you from hanging out near enemy fleets, its not doing its job. How many dogfights do you think occured over a carrier?
If you don't want to deal with the flak, avoid it. At any given time, there are usually only two carriers hitting your nation. There are many more enemy bases than that.
This whole debate is akin to complaining that ack is too deadly when you are vulching.
FYI, I liked to old implimentation better. I didn't like that it was such a hit on so many people's framerate. I see the current Flak as a game feature... in either implimentation, it was not realistic - so I just learn to deal with it as a part of the game.
AKDejaVu
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no its not akin to that dejavu
i havent seen anyone mention that the small caliber (bofors guns and 20mm guns) are too strong.. they are pretty good, and mabye could even use some beefing up (i hear all the guns arent modeled)
you arent vulching a carrier when you are nearly out of visual range from it and get killed
flak is not modeled realistically. if you can prove to me that in the war the united states had teleportation technoloigy where they were able to instantaneously displace an an explosive 5 inch shell from a gun barrel to target with no travel time, then ill stop saying youre talking out you ass.
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Originally posted by R4M:
who cares about who gets hit or not?
Actually, I'd like to see friendlies gittin' fragged along with enemas.
What I'm sick of is CV used as ACKSTARS to suppress airfields, while the CV's A/C are exempt from damage. 88mm or .50cal it doesn't matter who flies thru it, it should damage EVERYONE equally.
This has the added attraction of reducing ack-huggin' as the guy runnin' to his field runs the same risk of gettin' hit as the pursuer.
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flak is not modeled realistically. if you can prove to me that in the war the united states had teleportation technoloigy where they were able to instantaneously displace an an explosive 5 inch shell from a gun barrel to target with no travel time, then ill stop saying youre talking out you ass.
I never said it was modelled accurately Zig. I said it was serving its purpose accurately.
I challenge you to show me footage where fighters were hovering below 10k within 10 miles of a carrier before going to the fricking realism card. Because until you do.. you are the one talking out your ass.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 04-30-2001).]
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AH is just a game; Its nice in its own league but its not a sim.
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mannable 88s with the targeting computer would be neat. the ability to set the timing on it would be awsome too so you can just have the explode at anytime other than proximiety
anyways
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show me footage where a airplane not in an attack run on a carrier was shot down by carrier ack akdejavu, because ive never seen any
i dont think on a pitching aircraft carrier it was easy to shoot at a manouering target traveling 300 mph 10 miles away
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Zigrat, you insist on citing the lack of flak realism in unrealistic situations.
I can't provide you footage of a carrier shooting down a plane that was nearby but not attacking it because PLANES DID NOT HOVER AROUND CARRIERS NOT ATTACKING!
The enemy didn't just hover around CVs whining about them shooting at them.
Sheesh.
AKDejaVu
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DejaVu how bout u show me a picture on a CV 1000ft off the coast of an ACTIVE enemy airbase, using its flak guns to shoot at enemy planes as they took off or anything over 3k alt. BS BS BS BS BS
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The enemy didn't just hover around CVs whining about them shooting at them.
Sheesh.
AKDejaVu
Happened that we were at least 10 miles away from the carrier,fighting at 15-20k
If you can give me ANY footage of ANY carrier shooting down ANY enemy fighter at 15-20K of altitude, fighting at 10 miles from the CV, without even touching the friendly fighters there, then I'll agree that what we have now is OK.
You can't,right?
Then what we have now is NOT ok. And its not near being it.
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Model the ballistics for the Flak shells, and make it hurt all aircraft, even friendlies. Shells should definitely at least have close to accurate travel time from the gun to the target. Icon range is 6 NM, so we'll use that as an example. If the shell gets there in 1 second, it's travelling at 21,600 nm/h, or about Mach 32 at sea level, if I'm not screwing the math up here. Umm, that's a -tad- bit fast, as in about 5 times faster than most modern day surface-air missiles! If the 88mm ack had a more accurate muzzle velocity, then the problem of making a course change 8-10 miles out should protect you for a little bit before the CV makes adjustments. Of course, as you get closer, the shells take less and less time to reach you, hopefully making the CV's aim more and more lethal.
Of course I could just be delusional. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Nifty:
Model the ballistics for the Flak shells, and make it hurt all aircraft, even friendlies
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?
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Originally posted by sling322:
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?
Keep killshooter on for the Manned acks, but turn it off for thee automatic ones.
A manned ack will never ever hit me at 5-10 miles, because they even dont know I'm there. But automatic acks fire at anything into 15 miles of the CV, and they do it magically. So, correct that magic "instanttrack" system, and dont use killshooter for them. Let em hurt friends and enemies.
In WWII defensive CAP fighters were strongly enforced NOT to enter friendly AAA zones. Over Germany the Luftwaffe rarely (if ever) entered AAA-covered zones. Here to be into 15 mile range of a CV is simply hell.
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Happened to me just last night. Got pinged about 4 times in 2 hours. One ping to the engine killed it twice. The other 2 times it was a pure pilot kill. Boom. I've been around CVs long enough to know NOT to stray too close for too long either and to stay below the 3000 foot umbrella. And I was usually 3-5 miles away. Didn't matter. It only pisses me off when it blows a particularly good sortie or I've taken 10 minutes to climb and get there and boom all of a sudden I'm sitting back in the tower. It's just too eratic which is why I just try and stay the heck away from it. But there are always those guys who like to "hide" in the fleet ack and won't come out.
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Originally posted by R4M:
In WWII defensive CAP fighters were strongly enforced NOT to enter friendly AAA zones. Over Germany the Luftwaffe rarely (if ever) entered AAA-covered zones. Here to be into 15 mile range of a CV is simply hell.[/B]
Ram well if you look at the D-9 in my signature look at the wheel struts, the whole underside was painted red/white stripes for Identification to friendly AA/AAA units. These were rare indeed that friendlies operated in flack infested environments.
Some german night fighters did operate in the flack envelope as well 18-20k. Disregarding the orders to stay out of it, for that was were the easy kills were, allied bomber's knew that the fighters would not dare risk going into their own flak. Read several accounts of NF's doing this.
Flak is to accurate, especially on single engine fighters. FIx it.
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Originally posted by sling322:
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?
Perhaps it's time to adopt AW's PNG (Persona Non Gratis) and leave the dweebs without ammo for 24 hours.
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I dont know what the solution would be. Myself, I have only been 1 ping killed by fleet flak once....and that happened last nite. I fly through it all the time...straight and level, mild evasives, quick evasives....it doesnt matter. I might get a hit or two and get some minor damage but that is the price I expect to pay if I fly around a CV group. I am not saying that it doesnt happen, but I have only had it happen to me once.
What time of day are these things happening? Is it a situation where there are not very many targets in the air and the flak doesnt have a choice but to shoot at you because there is nobody else around? Most of the time I have been around carriers there are a lot of other targets around for the flak to shoot at. Last nite though it was just me and the guy I was fighting....and I got the dreaded "1 ping back to tower" flak death.
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Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
Ram well if you look at the D-9 in my signature look at the wheel struts, the whole underside was painted red/white stripes for Identification to friendly AA/AAA units. These were rare indeed that friendlies operated in flack infested environments.
Teh D9 in your sig is JV44, right?. I know those red and white stripes very well,I love that paint scheme (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)...well those 190D9 were there to protect the Me262s taking off, so they were FORCED to stay near the field they were protecting. So they were FORCED To stay into their ack envelope. Their mission FORCED that, but I am sure that they didnt like to do it.
Some german night fighters did operate in the flack envelope as well 18-20k. Disregarding the orders to stay out of it, for that was were the easy kills were, allied bomber's knew that the fighters would not dare risk going into their own flak. Read several accounts of NF's doing this.
Oh, yep. I remember reading one story from Wilhem Johnen (sp?) when they operated into the friendly ack cover. They were firing recognition flares all the time to avoid being shot at.
But was anyway quite rare.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Originally posted by sling322:
Of course...then how long will it be until some "quakers", as some of you like to call them, show up and start blasting friendlies outta the sky just for kicks?
I thought the discussion was about the AI flak, hopefully the AI wouldn't have a Quake mentality and shoot purposefully at a friendly! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) As for the manual flak, killshooter would pop the shooter back in the tower with a death. Only thing there is then you get fighters trying to purposefully pop gunners back in the tower. I guess it comes down to whether you want to have the possibility of friendly fire flak being abused or no friendly fire flak period.
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A comment on relative ack strengths -
We've been flying over Iraq for around 12 years now, and in the last 2 years Iraq has been actively trying to shoot down US and British planes. They have sophisticated height finders and have been rebuilding their air defense networks since the gulf war ended, yet to date they haven't downed a single aircraft in over 2 years of trying. They've been using heavy AAA traps, and the best they've done is to get an occasional fighter to jettison it's drop tanks.
This is with modern anti aircraft artillery, thousands of spotters on the ground linked electronically, both active and passive height finders, and computer flight path prediction. And they still haven't downed a plane in over 2 years of trying.
During Desert Storm there were AAA losses, but those tended to be due to extremely high risk missions like flying straight and level at 500 ft alt directly over heavily defended airfields. AAA is really good at hitting planes doing that kind of thing...
In Kosovo, the USAF and other Nato countries bombed the snot out of a country with one of the most compact air defense regions in the world, much of which we weren't allowed to bomb due to the risk of non-combatant casualties. In one incident (which earned the pilot a DFC), an F-16 went one on one against dense heavy, medium, and light AAA to bomb an active SAM site that had just shot at him and his wingman. Again, no AAA losses even against modern AAA weapons when flying our most fragile fighter (the F-16).
I'm not sure what conclusion to draw since WWII had flak densities that haven't been seen since that war, but it does point to the idea that the long range capabilities of AH AAA is amazingly accurate and lethal.
Either that, or HT could have a glorious career programming real life gun director systems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!