Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: fdiron on September 20, 2002, 04:31:02 AM
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Saw some people in another post discussing mandatory military service in the U.S. I do think that the military would benefit from getting people from different backgrounds. However, I don't think everyone is cut out for military service. When you rely soley on conscripts rather than volunteers, morale does tend to drop. So while the enlisted ranks would be filled with brighter, more intelligent, more athletic soldiers (basing this on the fact that most people join the military for college tuition, those with scholarships don't enlist), the simple fact that they were forced to join the military would be enough to discourage them from dedicating themselves.
Any opinions?
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Brighter, more intelligent enlistee's because of the draft? Pretty broad brush stroke there. College tuition benefits are only one "small" part of the many benefits of the military. Not ~that many~ people go to college on scholarships anyway.
No... we absolutely don't need (or for we who serve) want to see the draft. It's hard enough to boot losers out already. Besides that you are right.. the vast majority of folks are NOT cut out for any branch of military service.
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A volunteer military gives them much more flexibility. It's much easier to send volunteers into war than it is to force it onto people.
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Imo, a modern war would be a tech war mostly. Heck, I bet the military has its eyes on some of you AH players.:D
Les
PS- Don't draft me, I'm 44 and a Bohemian artist.:)
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Originally posted by Leslie (and the Department of Defense prior to the Vietnam War)
Imo, a modern war would be a tech war mostly.
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Won't work. Mandatory Govt. service would work better. Caring for the elderly, or better yet, working at a Veterans Hospital.........That will wake ya up.:(
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Leslie: Imo, a modern war would be a tech war mostly.
Only if we are carefull enough to attack much weaker countries at the right moment.
Mandatory Govt. service would work better. Caring for the elderly, or better yet, working at a Veterans Hospital.........That will wake ya up.
Yea. I can see that.
Judge: You, low-life scum. I can put you in jail for ten years or you can enroll into service to abuse, er, care for elderly or sick veretans.
Scumbag: I enroll!
Sick veterans and elderly: Oh, s@#t!
Not everyone is fit for military. How come everyone is fit to make political decisions with military implications? You are privileged to vote, you should be responcible for results.
miko
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tech wars are very limited in scope.
to win and take territory you must put troops on the ground, low tech slugging it out down and dirty.
ugly but necessary.
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I'm ready to be drafted.... As soon as there's a spot in the military for a deaf-eared soldier.
I have challenged a few recruiters to come up with something I could do, and promised them I would sign up in return. All came back negative. I think one of them found me a national guard job truck driving or something like that...
Out of High School, I qualified for the Navy nuclear program. Only thing that kept me out was the ear. Darnit.
On the other hand, I have often been asked, that if given the opportunity of having the bad ear fixed, would I?
I wouldn't. I like it. It has it's disadvantages, but I like the advantages also.
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Meant no offense Gofaster and Monk.
The point I was trying to make is, the military is only interested in college graduates nowadays, due to the high technology weapon systems employed, among other things.
They want people who can do the job at hand. Mandatory service of any kind would be akin to grooming people at an early age to fit a certain profile or occupation. One's personality and abilities must be taken into account. Whether it is good or bad, it's not freedom.
I've not served in the military, but my Dad and brother did. My Dad was in the Signal Corps during WWII, and my brother was a scientist for NASA over 35 years. He mentioned seeing films of tanks firing laser beams out the barrels back in the 60s, like in science fiction movies...only real. How much of this sort of thing is out there, we may never know. I hope we never find out.
Les
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Hmmm...how about mandatory Federal Service? If you want the franchise, then you must demonstrate social responsibility. No Federal Service, no vote, no political office. No one would be turned away for any reason. If you are quadraplegic, then the Federal Service Administration must find something usefull you can do for two years.
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I am absolutely opposed to a military draft on virtually EVERY level you can imagine. As a part of the last group of draftees I can guarantee you that the people you draft will be unwilling, uninspired and basically unqualified. Brighter? More motivated? Draftees? You're talking out yer arse FdIron, the quality of military people rose dramatically once we abolished the draft.
You guys think there's growing opposition to an Iraq war now? Start a draft and let us fight over there for a couple of years and THEN see what the American public thinks about having the body bags of draftees flying home every day.
I am amazed this would even be considered by some of you people. How in the Hell can you even consider forcing people to fight an undeclared, arguably illegal war for you? Go fight it yourselves. Fuggin unbelievable- This is absolutely the worst idea anyone has ever suggested on these bbs.
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Got to earn your right to vote;) Turn 18, your choice, do a quick term in the the Military or Civil service. That's what I was trying to say. :)
Have to agree with Elfenwolf. Draft would never work, just looking for trouble.
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I think our Founding Fathers would be spinning in their graves over this one.
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""mandatory Federal Service""...cool , i volunteer to be a senator or at least a GS15
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Originally posted by john9001
""mandatory Federal Service""...cool , i volunteer to be a senator or at least a GS15
Na......sorry, don't want to fight the War, got to take care of those that did.;)
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Brighter? More motivated? Draftees? You're talking out yer arse FdIron, the quality of military people rose dramatically once we abolished the draft.
Please don't go insane. During the Vietnam War, over half of the people drafted by the U.S. were able to get out serving by some means. Basically what this means is that college students (who were deferred anyways) and people intelligent enough to fool the draft boards did not have to serve. This left two types of people (1) People who did not object to serving, and (2) those too dumb to be able to get out of serving. By 1970 criminals could serve in the military instead of going to prison.
However, if military service were required of everyone, like Israel has, it would improve the quality of soldier. I am not for that though.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
You guys think there's growing opposition to an Iraq war now? Start a draft and let us fight over there for a couple of years and THEN see what the American public thinks about having the body bags of draftees flying home every day.
Good. Maybe they'll get some sense and stop listening to the talking heads that tell us what a threat Hussein is.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Good. Maybe they'll get some sense and stop listening to the talking heads that tell us what a threat Hussein is.
Exactly. Because if we piss off most of the world (for best reasons, of course) while letting our strength crumble due to "divercity", "multiculturalism", "feminism", socialism and the whole slew of other "-isms", those guys will come knocking on our door and we will have no choice but to introduce draft.
miko
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Reinstitute the draft? LOL....AuuuuuggghhhhhhLOL! Draft age children can vote in Federal Elections.
Dying in political war is stupid.
I was drafted in '66 No one will support it now. LOL!
HC
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Draft only works when there is sufficient external threat to motivate the general population, or a police state to enforce it.
Neither were present in the 60s nor at the current time in the US.
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couple other observations:
1. it would be enormously expensive gov't program.
2. WTF are all these soldiers supposed to do?
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liberals love to talk about "body bags", in WW2 there were so many dead they didn't ship them home in "body bags' , they buried them over there, i think some liberal invented body bags
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Originally posted by 2Slow
Hmmm...how about mandatory Federal Service? If you want the franchise, then you must demonstrate social responsibility. No Federal Service, no vote, no political office. No one would be turned away for any reason. If you are quadraplegic, then the Federal Service Administration must find something usefull you can do for two years.
"Starship Troopers" Robert A. Heinlein, 1959
One of my favorite books by my favorite SF author.
He was called a "fascist" and a "militarist" for this.
(TANSTAAFL- "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" R.A.H 1966)
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Ever notice those that expouse Mandatory Federal Service, never include themselves in this idea. It is always to an inexperienced teenager that is expected to do this. The reason the army did not draft anyone over the age of 26 during 'Nam was they found that when someone got that old you couldn;t fool them into doing stuff. They would not die for their country without asking why.
You need a viable threat to motivate anyone. The Bush War is not sufficient...Saddam can only kill his neighbors, none of which we like,except Isreal. Isreal will nuke him immediately. Since he cant kill us, ,lets send 100k kids so that he has a good target when his back is to the wall and we are sure he will use stuff. That way I guess Bush can be sure whether he has WMD or not. High price to pay to find out. Let him die, we can wait.
hc
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I can't begin to tell all of you just how relieved I am that foreign policy isn't formed on these bbs.
The general consensus is that we not only invade Iraq but we reinstate the draft and send draftees in to do the "less technical jobs." Translate: Do the actual fighting.
Oh, and who was asking about the number of draftees killed in Viet Nam? I believe it was 30%, or between fifteen and eighteen thousand boys. Now out of the other 70% killed over there I wonder how many of them enlisted to get a better school than a draftee might get? No doubt many more, although I fail to see the difference between those draftees who died and those volunteers who died- all totaled up we lost 58,000 in Viet Nam. If you're comforted that many KIAs were volunteers then I honestly think you're mentally ill and totally detatched from reality. They were all kids, volunteers or not.
Fdiron, you forgot the third class of person who was able to avoid service in Viet Nam- the children of our ruling class like GWB and WJC. Actually it wasn't that easy to fool a draft physical in spite of what you may have heard. Basically we dropped our pants, bent over and if you had an amazinhunk without anal cysts surrounding it you passed. I guess those of us who showed up to take the physical rather than running to Canada were the stupid ones.
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Please don't go insane. During the Vietnam War, over half of the people drafted by the U.S. were able to get out serving by some means.
basicly if you had a serious reason not to go, or your daddy could buy you out of it.
if you where young and healthy but didn't have the family conections to bail you out, you got drafted or you ran to Canada.
one of the big problems I have with a draft is that military service doesn't fit in a democracy. before you freak out, let me explain.
it would never work to have elections for comanding officers. or voting on how to set up deffences. or other stupid crap like that.
hell basicly all of military life is unconstitutional. as I see it the only part that makes it acceptable to the laws of our country is that it is volantary and if you don't like the rules don't join.
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>>Fdiron, you forgot the third class of person who was able to avoid service in Viet Nam- the children of our ruling class like GWB and WJC. <<
elfenwolf- tho i agree with the gist of your post - rich kids, like danny quayle got out of being shot at - WJC was hardly a scion of 'the ruling class'. he was raised by a single mother on the wrong side of the tracks. he actually worked to get a scholarship to oxford. like him or loathe him, he was a guy that picked himself up by his own bootstraps.
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WJC was trailer trash. Illegitimate in birth and morals. Never held an honest job.
Draft dodger, and bragged about it.
If he had taken care of business in his 8 years of paid vacation, 911 would not have happened. Heck, if MFS (Mandatory Federal Service) was in effect, WJC would not have be elligable to run for office.
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draft dodger and proud of it, eh?.
kinda like uber-hawk dick cheney - 5 draft deferments, had 'other priorties than military service' (his words). never shouldered a rifle.
after the '93 bombing of the WTC, WJC tripled the FBI's anti-terrorism funding. unfortunatetly the FBI spent most of the '90 crotch sniffing.
and last time I checked, GWB was in charge on 9/11/01. or hasn't his presidency started yet?
BTW - the perps of the '93 WTC bombing were caught and are in the slammer. where's osama? :confused:
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Originally posted by 2Slow
Illegitimate in birth.
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
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Originally posted by KG45
BTW - the perps of the '93 WTC bombing were caught and are in the slammer. where's osama? :confused:
Guess they didn't catch them all, eh? Where IS Osama? Thought he'd be in jail with the rest of the '93 bombers from your info. :confused:
Who is Osama Bin Laden? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1551100.stm)
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Hmmm.
"As a military commander, Bin Laden was respected for his organisational skills, his bravery and, above all, for his ability to survive. "
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Obviously he's a survivor, although he may not have dodged the bullet this time. Only time will tell I guess.
But what I was really referring to, after KG45's post was this:
From the BBC article:
Attacks linked to Bin Laden
1993 World Trade Center bomb
1996 Killing of 19 US soldiers in Saudi
1998 Nairobi and Dar es Salaam bombs
2000 Attack on USS Cole in Yemen
2001 attack on World Trade Center and Pentagon
So not catching Osama is Bush's failure?
It's never as simple as folks try to make it, I think.
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Originally posted by Leslie
Meant no offense Gofaster and Monk.
The point I was trying to make is, the military is only interested in college graduates nowadays
For officers only. The VAST majority of enlistees (which make up the vast majority of the DOD) are not college graduates.
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Originally posted by KG45 .
draft dodger and proud of it, eh?.
kinda like uber-hawk dick cheney - 5 draft deferments, had 'other priorties than military service' (his words). never shouldered a rifle.
There's a difference between bieng deferred and quitting.
after the '93 bombing of the WTC, WJC tripled the FBI's anti-terrorism funding. unfortunatetly the FBI spent most of the '90 crotch sniffing.
And spent the remainder of his term crippling the Intelligence community.
and last time I checked, GWB was in charge on 9/11/01. or hasn't his presidency started yet?
It's also your own fault you were born... nobody else had anything to do with it right?
BTW - the perps of the '93 WTC bombing were caught and are in the slammer. where's osama? :confused:
Because they were here in country, sloppy and something other than well trained and experienced in terrorist operations. If you have any bright ideas about finding Osama, I'm all ears.. I'm sure there are many others willing to listen too.
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>There's a difference between bieng deferred and quitting<
i'm curious - what did clinton quit?
clinton = college deferments = draft dodger
cheney = college deferments = draft dodger
whats the difference?
BTW = i'm no clinton fan, he gave the repubs everything they wanted during his 8 years. still can't figure out why the RW hates him. maybe they got something against peace and prosperity? :cool:
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When you say "mandatory", are you picturing what would have been good for you? or what you would like to see others benefit from.
Because generally when you are thinking of something that is 'mandatory' that would benefit everyone, you are thinking of handing over more freedom for a quick all encompassing answer that will never solve the problem you had in mind in the first place.
Giving decisions to one (entity), instead of spreading the load out among many, ruins our nation imo. What one entity has the time to consider everyone fairly and kindly? besides God.
Instead of handing the decision up the chain, I think people should take more responsibility for their own lives.
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that sounds like an incredibly stupid idea. where is all this money supposed to come from? why not just build more cruise missiles and forget about this whole mandantory bullcrap?
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If he had taken care of business in his 8 years of paid vacation
anybody care to compare gw's vacation days to clinton. seems like bush has been on vacation more atleast 25% of the time.
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But I'm not even a US citizen. :(
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WJC, not counting his intern activities, did nothing his entire 8 years except put this country at risk.
Thus I credit him with 8 years of paid vacation.
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Please do not send me anymore dud broke-dick worthless soldiers. The ones we have are tough enough to get rid of.