Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kratzer on September 20, 2002, 04:21:50 PM
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Sometimes locking someone up or executing them isn't good enough...
The video is just sickening...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/810533.asp
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I guess that's why she wasn't at the White Sox game with her husband and Son
A Local DJ had that one this morning on the drive in. (Yes Maverick, I'm making a joke from a bad situation).
It's seriously assed up man. You see how she looks both ways to make sure the coast is clear? Tell me she doesn't know that what she's about to do is wrong? And look at how far back her elbow goes when she winds up. She is busting that poor kid up. At least the police know who they are looking for, hopefully they can get the kid away from that squeak as soon as possible.
-Sikboy
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Spare the rod, spoil the child.
:rolleyes:
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Yes, that's too far, obviously.
Kudos to Sandman for being the first to link spanking to abuse.
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I guarantee that lady's parents beat the crap out of her, and their parents beat the crap out of them, and so on.
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Hopefully she will resist arrest when they find her. :mad: :mad:
I just hope they find her and the kid soon.
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As previously noted, I'm not an advocate of spanking, but yeah, a swat on the butt is nothing like this.
I've never seen two grown men go after each other like like she went after that kid - fist fights are generally a couple punches and over.
I don't know if I can call this more disturbing, because in ANY situation, that is completely insane, but I the thing that stuck out in my mind is that the kid wasn't acting up - the lady was pissed about her failed attempt to return stolen merchandise, and just went off on the kid as an outlet.
What a piece of toejam.
:(
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It is all society's fault, leave the poor woman alone already. If our "system" was worth a damn it would have provided her the necessary assistance to have a normal productive life and provide a loving nuturing environment in which to rear her child.
This is all the fault of the mean-spirited Right-Wingers, just a couple hundred more billion into the right social programs could have prevented this. I hope you all sleep well tonight.
"It will be a wonderful day when the schools can buy all the books they need and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy another bomber."
Lonz
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These people are part of a clan known as the Travelers.
Enough said.
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That woman is a Traveler, are you serious?
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What exactly are the 'Travelers'?
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Originally posted by Animal
What exactly are the 'Travelers'?
It is a clan of scam artists and thieves.
http://www.sonoma-county.org/da/travelers_scam.htm
http://foclark.tripod.com/gypsy/index.html
More info from the internet:
Travellers are descendants of a nomadic ethnic group that came to the United States in the 1800s to escape the potato famine, roaming the country in search of itinerant work.
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Say what you want about Madelyne, but I've slept with chicks that are prone to violence and frankly they're better in bed. I'm saving the link to that Women In Prison penpal page so that when Madelyne gets sentanced we can correspond with each other.
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That's one lie too many, Elf. You've never slept with chicks in your life, and you know it. ;)
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Originally posted by Kieran
That's one lie too many, Elf. You've never slept with chicks in your life, and you know it. ;)
LOL OK, but if I ever DO get to have sex with a woman I hope it's Madelyene.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
LOL OK, but if I ever DO get to have sex with a woman I hope it's Madelyene.
I can actually see this happening. Elfie would make a good biatch for madelyne.
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LOL, yup, you'd better make her happy!
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.....and the horse she rode in on.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
LOL OK, but if I ever DO get to have sex with a woman I hope it's Madelyene.
hmmmm......with a woman.......very interesting
:D
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If parents aren't allowed to raise their kids through punishment, the kids will never learn to respect authority and their own limitations.
You can already see it happening all around - social services forbit anyone from slapping children when they do wrong so you see parents with screaming lunatic kids doing whatever they want.
By the time of 13 years they already stole a few cars, robbed beer from the convenient store and a criminal life is ahead.
I've seen it first hand - one of my friends was raised like that and his life ended abruptly at the age of 15 in a motorcycle accident.
He already had a wrap sheet mile long.
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The first time I saw this video I didnt see the end after the kid was in the car seat. At first I thought that it was exessive but not as bad as the media was making it out. But then I watched it again and saw the 10+ closed fist blows to the head. What could a 4 year old possably due to deserve something like that. I hope she gets some serious jail time and never gets custody of that child again. I wonder how she would feel if someone 4 times as big and strong as her gave her 10+ closed fist blows to the head?She would be filing felony assault charges faster than you could say whoopee squeak.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Kudos to Sandman for being the first to link spanking to abuse.
ROFL!! How many kids do you have?
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Originally posted by Hussein
If parents aren't allowed to raise their kids through punishment, the kids will never learn to respect authority and their own limitations.
That is completely incorrect (here we go again). Do you any links or documents that prove what you posted. I think you are confusing punishment with discipline.
Punitive parenting teaches the child to fear you and/or authority figures and hide thier actions from them, not necessarily to stop the actions.
Discipline implies education of the child on what are inappropriate behaviours and natural consequences for acting in an inappropriate fashion.
No one has to be violent towards thier child. Nor should they.
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As long as people are free to just have kids/pets willy nilly you will find that there will be murders, torture, rape etc.. and in some cases people will never know the young person existed.
I think parents should have to go to training and receive a license and have an active counselor, there should be random audits in order to have kids or pets.
people suck and can't be trusted, especially for long periods of time with the helpless.
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Tumor-
I have two daughters.
We've been down this one before. I will spank if necessary and won't apologize. And, as much as some here would paint me as a totalitarian brute because of it, it just isn't so. Spanking isn't the first recourse for me, but it is an option, and my daughters both know it.
Punitive parenting teaches the child to fear you and/or authority figures and hide thier actions from them, not necessarily to stop the actions.
This is '60s hippy crap, and I think that every time I see it. I don't mean to offend with that comment, I know how you feel about it, but this totally ignores the societal norm. Society will first condemn an action of an individual, but eventually there is a punitive recourse that follows uncivil action.
Human beings are greedy and selfish by nature, make no mistake about it. We want what we want, how we want it, when we want it, where, etc. One of the measures of maturity might be the ability to deny that basic instinct for the sake of others. Small children for the most part simply don't possess that maturity, nor are they born with an innate understanding of how a society works.
So... your two-year-old decides he wants the toy another child is holding... he pushes the child and takes it. You see the event. You say to your child, "Now give that back". You can even throw in "Please" if it makes you feel better. Your child clutches the toy to his chest, turns away, and runs. You chase after your child, catch him, and ask again for the toy. The child twists away from you and starts yelling "No! No!". What do you do?
1. If you let the child keep the toy, you are sending the message that it is ok to deny authority, because you eventually get your way if you are persistant enough.
2. If you take the toy back, aren't you teaching the child to fear you and/or authority figures and hide his actions from them, not necessarily to stop the actions?
You see, the mild swat on the butt isn't the issue, it's the way you view that child and his place in society. You could begin his entry into society by creating an atmosphere that is a reflection of that society (as in the way they learn the native language, through immersion), or you could create a bubble around him and protect him from society and the consequences of his actions. If you have a son that absolutely refuses to respond to all non-punitive (and I am using your term) forms of behavioral modification and corporal punishment is not on the table, what next?
Of course this doesn't matter a great deal to me... my daughters behave great, I've spanked them maybe ten times over the course of their combined nearly 18 years, and they are doing great in school and with friends. It all seems pretty simple to me.
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One thing about this situation one should consider that goes into a little more depth.
That woman was leaving a store after trying to unsuccessfully return an item or items. These people known as the Travellers often steal things or aquire items with bad credit or checks and then try to return such items for cash. I am not saying that is certain in this situation but definitely probable.
The mother leaves the store likely quite irritated. The daughter is probably wanting ice cream, McDonalds, or some toy and like a lot of youngsters her age startes fussing. This sets the mother off and then the mother then takes out her anger on the child.
It's a sad situation that happens too often.
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Originally posted by Kieran
This is '60s hippy crap, and I think that every time I see it.
That's understandable. Whenever I hear someone justifying acting violently towards children, let alone thier own, I can't help but think it's moral majority barbaric crap. However I would not put someone that spanks their child in the catagory as the women that this thread is about.
So... your two-year-old decides he wants the toy another child is holding... he pushes the child and takes it. You see the event. You say to your child, "Now give that back". You can even throw in "Please" if it makes you feel better. Your child clutches the toy to his chest, turns away, and runs. You chase after your child, catch him, and ask again for the toy. The child twists away from you and starts yelling "No! No!". What do you do?
1. If you let the child keep the toy, you are sending the message that it is ok to deny authority, because you eventually get your way if you are persistant enough.
2. If you take the toy back, aren't you teaching the child to fear you and/or authority figures and hide his actions from them, not necessarily to stop the actions?
My issue is with being violent with children. In neither of your examples is there a violent action. I not even sure were the first example came from, as no one has advocated being a passive parent. In your second example does have some merit. I think that acting violently towards your child would lead to more fear then taking thier toy away.
You see, the mild swat on the butt isn't the issue, it's the way you view that child and his place in society. You could begin his entry into society by creating an atmosphere that is a reflection of that society (as in the way they learn the native language, through immersion),
If I follow what you are saying, you think you should be violent towards your child as an introduction to a society that is violent? Please tell me I'm not understanding this correctly.
or you could create a bubble around him and protect him from society and the consequences of his actions.
No one has advocated protecting a child from society or the consequence of thier actions. I don't think a child should have to be protected from the violent actions of their parent or that the consequences of thier actions needs to be violence.
If you have a son that absolutely refuses to respond to all non-punitive (and I am using your term) forms of behavioral modification and corporal punishment is not on the table, what next?
I don't know. What would you do if corporal punishment didn't work?
Of course this doesn't matter a great deal to me... my daughters behave great, I've spanked them maybe ten times over the course of their combined nearly 18 years, and they are doing great in school and with friends. It all seems pretty simple to me.
Of course they might also have done great without corporal punishment.
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Evidently the mother wasn't hitting the child as hard as it appeared on the tape as the child has been examined and it is reported there are no apparent injuries including bruises. Of course there could be internal injuries and further examination is being conducted.
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I hate little kids so I shouldn't comment on corporal punishment. However, when a child starts screaming in a checkout line, throwing a fit in a restaurant or crying during a movie I think we should spank the parents. Make them responsible for the little snot-nosed brat they're raising! Have the police issue a citation for a noisy child, and when the parent appears in court the baliff administers 10 hard whacks across the butt with a ping pong paddle for a first offense, 20 whacks for a second offense and remove the child from the home for a third offense. Obviously if a parent is cited 3 times for a noisy child they're not fit to raise kids.
I'm impressed with the parents of well behaved kids, and personally I don't care what the parent does in the privacy of their own home to convince a truculant child that a child in public is supposed to be seen and not heard. For all I know a kid could be wearing a shock collar to enforce his behavior, but as long as his nose isn't running and he's quiet I don't care.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
I hate little kids so I shouldn't comment on corporal punishment. However, when a child starts screaming in a checkout line, throwing a fit in a restaurant or crying during a movie I think we should spank the parents. Make them responsible for the little snot-nosed brat they're raising! Have the police issue a citation for a noisy child, and when the parent appears in court the baliff administers 10 hard whacks across the butt with a ping pong paddle for a first offense, 20 whacks for a second offense and remove the child from the home for a third offense. Obviously if a parent is cited 3 times for a noisy child they're not fit to raise kids.
I'm impressed with the parents of well behaved kids, and personally I don't care what the parent does in the privacy of their own home to convince a truculant child that a child in public is supposed to be seen and not heard. For all I know a kid could be wearing a shock collar to enforce his behavior, but as long as his nose isn't running and he's quiet I don't care.
What punisment for the parents of a 14 year old that commits murder?
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Thrawn-
I thought I was pretty clear.
I understand you are 100% against striking a child for any reason, or in any manner. Given that, the two options I provided are your only real choices. You either give in and let the little guy develop his own sense of right or wrong, or you intervene and effect your will upon him, which will still bring about the results you say you wish to avoid and you claim will be the direct result of spanking.
Yes, home discipline does have parallels in society. Your first recourse to a child is to state what you find is wrong, and express your displeasure. Next you would warn the child to stop. Next you would punish the child. Now where you go from there depends on the family, but it can end in corporal punishment. Do I really have to display the parallels directly?
You behave outside of society, you are shunned.
Next, you are arrested.
Next, you are fined or sentenced.
Next, you are sent to prison.
Next, you might be executed.
Those are the realities that exist in our society. Go ahead, tell me, which of the two courses do you take, and which one best prepares the child for our society?
I feel that I have an obligation to use whatever means I have at my disposal to prepare my child for the world. I cannot afford to throw my hands in the air and say, "Oh well, what can you do?" If that means a spanking will occasionally happen, so be it.
And when it gets right down to it, Thrawn, you ARE going to effect your will upon the child, whether you do it with a swat or use your superior physical size to place the child in time-out. So tell me, how is that fundamentally and philosophically different than a spanking?
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Originally posted by Kieran
So tell me, how is that fundamentally and philosophically different than a spanking?
One is violent. The other is not.
One you physically hurt your child. The other you don't.
What would you do if corporal punishment didn't work?
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From here: http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/spanked.html
Let’s examine the argument:
"I was spanked." (fact)
"I'm fine." (opinion)
"Sometimes spanking is necessary for solving problems with kids." (false assumption)
"Since it's both necessary and harmless, it should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)
Now let’s consider a similar argument that seems to justify smoking:
"George Burns smoked all his life from his teenage years on." (fact)
"He was in reasonably good health all his life and lived to be 100." (fact)
"Sometimes smoking is necessary for coping with life's problems." (false assumption)
"It should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)
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Originally posted by Kieran
Tumor-
I have two daughters.
We've been down this one before. I will spank if necessary and won't apologize. And, as much as some here would paint me as a totalitarian brute because of it, it just isn't so. Spanking isn't the first recourse for me, but it is an option, and my daughters both know it.
Ahhh... I mistook your meaning (I think). I spank too... 3 boys here. 8/12/17. My wife never spanked... they respect her but they also ignore her whenever it's convenient (ie: chores). When Dad speaks... kiddies listen. And truthfully, I don't give a toejam about thier "individuality" or "right to free space" or other some such nonsense. My household is not a democracy. I am the supreme ruler and what I say goes, it's my way or the highway (or the rod) if necessary, ... unless of course the wife says differen't :)
Don't care what people think about MY choice and method to disciplin MY children how ~I~ see fit.
Tumor
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I keep feeling like we've been through all of this.
This lady is a sick diddly - let's agree on that and let sleeping dogs lie.
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My oldest daughter has three sons, 4, 5 & 7 yrs. Their father dispensed the discipline (sometimes spanking). While my daughter would discipline she never spanked. She either couldn't or wouldn't. Now he is gone and they run all over her. I told her she is gonna have to spank. We'll see how it goes.
I applaud all those that can instill discipline in the child without corporal punishment. That is if the child is respectful of others. If not then I have little else but contempt for you.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
From here: http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/spanked.html
Let’s examine the argument:
"I was spanked." (fact)
"I'm fine." (opinion)
"Sometimes spanking is necessary for solving problems with kids." (false assumption)
"Since it's both necessary and harmless, it should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)
Now let’s consider a similar argument that seems to justify smoking:
"George Burns smoked all his life from his teenage years on." (fact)
"He was in reasonably good health all his life and lived to be 100." (fact)
"Sometimes smoking is necessary for coping with life's problems." (false assumption)
"It should be allowed and even encouraged." (illogical conclusion)
For the record Thrawn (and anyone else). If you have no children... your opinion is moot (to me). I refuse to listen to any argument about raising children brought by those without.
Not saying you do, or don't... just sayin.
Anyway, indeed... my children have fear, but they do not fear ME. They fear my actions (ie: the consequences) should they engage in activity which the KNOW is outside the boundries ~I~ set as acceptable behavior. The severity of my actions (the consequences) vary with the severity of the offense and the age of the child. Example. Should my 17yr old decide NOT to report home NLT 2300hrs on weekend nights, he will certainly suffer a minimum of 3 days grounded (in which various household chores will become his responsibility). Should I find that my 8yr old started a fight with the nieghbor kid... he's gettin a spanking. Open hand, on a clothing covered butt and NEVER when I'm truly pissed-off. Should my 12yr curse my wife (ie: show blatant disrespect) I would certainly leave the room until I calmed down, then evaluate whether a spanking or perhaps a certain privaledge is removed until further notice, and pick the best one.
There's a huge difference between a spanking and a beating. Anyone who can't make that distinction shouldn't be raising children.
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Originally posted by Hussein
If parents aren't allowed to raise their kids through punishment, the kids will never learn to respect authority and their own limitations.
You can already see it happening all around - social services forbit anyone from slapping children when they do wrong so you see parents with screaming lunatic kids doing whatever they want.
By the time of 13 years they already stole a few cars, robbed beer from the convenient store and a criminal life is ahead.
I've seen it first hand - one of my friends was raised like that and his life ended abruptly at the age of 15 in a motorcycle accident.
He already had a wrap sheet mile long.
Husein,
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that this is not an attmpt at a troll.
This situation is not spanking, This is a deliberate and brutal attack on a small child. Look at the video and see what I mean. I am a proponant of spanking in a reasoned and appropriate manner. Punching, striking with full range blowsand shaking violently is neither reasoned nor appropriate.
FWIW, I have had to spank my son only once in his 16 years. Our relationship is good enough that just talking to him to express my disapointment is sufficient. How I was blessed with such a GOOD kid is beyond me but I am thankful for him.
I have put up with MANY unrully and misbehaving kids as a Police Officer and as a teacer in public schools. I have also seen some parents responses to their kids and in quite a few cases where the kid was a problem the parents did not know how to maintain control of the child. In effect the child was the "master" of the home and dictated to the parents and the parents ineffectively tried to "reason" with their offspring. The kid knew the threats were all empty and reacted accordingly.
If anyone wants an education as to how kids behave with no controls, try substitute teaching in a public school in grades from 5th through high school. You will be AMAZED at how ill behaved and frankly dangerous they are. They will actually walk up to you and tell you you cannot do anything about it as well.
When I was getting my teaching certificate I did sub in 3 school districts. Many times I realized I felt safer back on the street in uniform wearing a badge. :(
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as a teacer in public schools.
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I got a kid, Tumour. That shouldn't matter though. An arguement should stand on it's merits alone, not on the person that this delivering it.
I'm going to leave it at that. We have been here before and I think we've seen each others arguements and hopefully understand them.
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I feel that I have an obligation to use whatever means I have at my disposal to prepare my child for the world. I cannot afford to throw my hands in the air and say, "Oh well, what can you do?" If that means a spanking will occasionally happen, so be it.
In answer to your question, Thrawn, I would do whatever it takes to regain control of the situation. I will not rule out using corporal punishment any more than I would rule out discussion. One thing is for sure, I will not allow the child to become the head of the household by refusing to comply with our wishes.
You still haven't really addressed my question though. You see, force is force, and if you use your superior size to effect the changes you desire, you are still, to use your logic, forcing your will upon the child. By the logic you have used this will only send their deviant behavior underground, out of sight.
"One is violent. The other is not.
One you physically hurt your child. The other you don't."
You're only kidding yourself. If you think the spanking I do is anything more than symbolic, or that it in some way causes physical harm, you're wrong. And if you believe that physically removing your child from a situation isn't a form of violence, try physically removing a co-worker from his or her seat in the same way you would do a child. Ridiculous extrapolation? Of course, just like the thought that says spanking a child only teaches them to fear and loathe authority.
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Maverick I agree on you, the womans behaviour was criminal.
You see, there is a clear difference between a spanking or a tug of hair versus punches with fists..
The earlier is a way to inflict enough pain to the child to obey the parent (without any intent of physically harming the child), latter is a burst of rage and attempt to inflict damage.
When you raise a child there is unevitably going to be situations where you HAVE to take charge. If the child refuses to listen regardless of your threats, you have to do something don't you?
It's for the good of the child. If you let the child have his way you're damaging him way more than by teaching him he has to listen to what YOU say.
A 2-year old child isn't fit to choose what he wears to go out on a rainy day for example (yet if you raise your child the way social people want you to, the kid should be let to choose his own clothing even at this age.) The kid is not fit to tell if he can go play ball next to a heavily trafficked highway where he might run under a car.. etc.
In cases like that I damn well prefer to slap my child if he doesn't obey, instead of watching him be taken to the hospital. After a slap or two the child will learn that he must listen to you and further punishment is not necessary anymore. I was spanked only once in my life and that was because I almost got killed by escaping to a factory with an older friend. I was 4 years old. I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have understood the severity of my actions unless my mother punished me harder than ever before or after.
When a child gets punished and he knows he'll get punished every time he does something wrong it does not make him fear you. It makes him love you. He feels secure, he can concentrate on being a child and let his parents set the rules. He doesn't have to grow up as an infant and be responsible for himself. It's called being a child, folks.
Often, after my kid does something bad like breaks the computer or vcr even though he has been said he shouldn't play with them, I shout at him or even twist his hair a bit behind his ear, which is very painful but also harmless.
He often starts to cry and I feel guilt afterwards.. But then he comes over and hugs me. He's telling me he's sorry even though he can't say it in words yet. And that's when I feel that I was right in punishing him afterall.
Kids need borders. Grown ups must set the borders to the kids because they can't know what they are by themselves. Basically that's all there is to it.
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In answer to your question, Thrawn, I would do whatever it takes to regain control of the situation. I will not rule out using corporal punishment any more than I would rule out discussion. One thing is for sure, I will not allow the child to become the head of the household by refusing to comply with our wishes.
You're only kidding yourself. If you think the spanking I do is anything more than symbolic, or that it in some way causes physical harm, you're wrong.
But would you be willing to physically harm your child and cause them pain to maintain control.
You still haven't really addressed my question though. You see, force is force, and if you use your superior size to effect the changes you desire, you are still, to use your logic, forcing your will upon the child. By the logic you have used this will only send their deviant behavior underground, out of sight.
Who is physically forcing the child to do anything. Natural consequences for thier actions. Child is freaking out a Jimmy's house. Fine, no playing at Jimmy's for a week. Child didn't wear a helmet will while biking. No access to the bike for 3 days.
However, I will use force to stop the child from hurting themselves or someone else.
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"The earlier is a way to inflict enough pain to the child to obey the parent "
Hussein, you sound like your namesake.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"The earlier is a way to inflict enough pain to the child to obey the parent "
Hussein, you sound like your namesake.
Guys, there's better ways to get obedience out of a child than physically harming them. I never spanked my child. Instead I had a hideous looking werewolf mask and if she didn't eat her vegetables or get her room cleaned I'd put on that mask and scare the bejesus out of her. I had the best behaved three year old on the planet thanks to that mask and all I had to do was just mention I might put on the mask and she would start sobbing, begging me not to and agree to behave and wax the car like I'd asked her to do. It's not necessary to spany your kids.
BTW, did anyone see that video of Madelyne Toogood crying over losing her temper? I feel so sorry for this poor woman-I'd just like to hold her and comfort her.
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Who is physically forcing the child to do anything. Natural consequences for thier actions. Child is freaking out a Jimmy's house. Fine, no playing at Jimmy's for a week. Child didn't wear a helmet will while biking. No access to the bike for 3 days.
How are you going to keep the kid from going to Jimmy's? How are you going to keep the kid off the bike?
That's what I thought- you are using physical force to effect your will, just like I said.
I would be willing to spank my child to keep her off the bike and keep her in the house if she were silly enough to defy me and try it anyway. What are you willing to do if your child ignores you and does the same? You never seem to quite get to that part... I hear the generalities of your point, but not the specifics.
Just how do you make an incorrigible child do anything he/she refuses to do? No dodges now, no saying "I'd take this away, or I wouldn't let them do that". I mean in the example I gave you originally, what do you do when the child refuses to give up the toy?
Now I may seem to be dogging you, but in reality that is not my intent. I do however see a great deal of either hypocracy or naivety in the anti-spank viewpoint. To take the stance that spanking makes it impossible for someone to develop a respect for authority and right or wrong is a load of hooey.
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Originally posted by Kanth
As long as people are free to just have kids/pets willy nilly you will find that there will be murders, torture, rape etc.. and in some cases people will never know the young person existed.
I think parents should have to go to training and receive a license and have an active counselor, there should be random audits in order to have kids or pets.
people suck and can't be trusted, especially for long periods of time with the helpless.
And I think I should be the counselor:}
Mr Sensitive :cool:
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Elf, you just made my day... that was some funny toejam! :)
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Evidently the mother wasn't hitting the child as hard as it appeared on the tape as the child has been examined and it is reported there are no apparent injuries including bruises. Of course there could be internal injuries and further examination is being conducted. -AKIron
I saw the video once a few days back but haven't heard anything since. From what I could see, it only looked to me like open-handed smacks unlike what a few here are saying are closed fist hits. Also, when in her car, I couldn't see if she was actually even striking the kid or maybe smacking a car-seat or something to create a lot of noise. I could tell the woman was very, very upset at the child and one of my beliefs is to try to never dole out a punishment when angry. Anyway, what you type above makes me think maybe some of what people are seeing is coming from their imagination a little bit. Bruises do not go away in a day or two. But only if what you type above is true.
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So now she wasn't hitting hard enough for it to be abuse?
Some of you people diddlyin' amaze me.
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saw in the paper where the lady turned herself in.
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So Kratzer, when your wife slaps you on the hand when you try to steal some freshly baked cookies on top of the oven, you sue her for abuse?
If she would punch you in the face and knock out a tooth or two, I'd understand that. Not a slap on the hand.
Do you allow any other kind of physical touch in your family? Just a thought :)
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I can see it now in some of your houses.
6 yr old Timmy takes a ball from 5 yr old Sally.
Dad: Timmy give the ball back to Sally.
Timmy:No!
Dad: Timmy PLEASE give her the ball back.
Timmy:NO!!
Dad:Timmy giver her th ball back or you will be punished.
Timmy: F'ck off!
Sally:Kick his bellybutton you popsicle!
Dad: Sally please don't cuss.
Sally: Eat me you old fart!
Dad: Timmy give her the ball back now or you will REALLY be in trouble.
Timmy:(laughing) Oh no I'm gonna have a "time out".
Dad: OK that's it! Timmy I hate to do this but since you won't mind me....."I'm not proud of you right now".
Dad: I'm sorry I had to be so mean to you...can you forgive me?
Timmy and Sally: What a popsicle!
Timmy: Here Sally you can have the ball back I'm done with it.
Dad: There that wasn't so bad was it Timmy? Thanks for doing the right thing.
Timmy: Hey Sally you wanna go next door and kill the neighbors cat?
Sally: Sure! we can pretend it's Dad!
Dad to Mom: See Dear our kids are perfect angels!
Mom: F'ck off! I gotta go I have a date!
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here is my version (a bit shorter :D)
6 yr old Timmy takes a ball from 5 yr old Sally.
Dad: Timmy give the ball back to Sally.
Timmy:No!
Dad: Timmy PLEASE give her the ball back.
Timmy:NO!!
Dad:Timmy giver her th ball back or you will be punished.
Timmy: F'ck off!
hehe ;)
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Hussein, you saw the video. If you think there is some justification for what she did... I can only assume you are trying to justify some action of your own.
Regardless of what any of us think of corporal punishment, that wasn't it...
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Originally posted by Tumor
Ahhh... I mistook your meaning (I think). I spank too... 3 boys here. 8/12/17. My wife never spanked... they respect her but they also ignore her whenever it's convenient (ie: chores). When Dad speaks... kiddies listen. And truthfully, I don't give a toejam about thier "individuality" or "right to free space" or other some such nonsense. My household is not a democracy. I am the supreme ruler and what I say goes, it's my way or the highway (or the rod) if necessary, ... unless of course the wife says differen't :)
Don't care what people think about MY choice and method to disciplin MY children how ~I~ see fit.
Tumor
Agreed....only one alpha male in my home:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Agreed....only one alpha male in my home:)
Does he make you wear a skirt?
:)
-Sikboy
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sick behaviour for sure.
Nothing would justify that kind of abuse. Nothing.
There are ways to give your children consequences for their actions that don't involve beating the crap out of them.
How long will this child suffer? Her whole life :(
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Kratzer I guess you deliberately fail to see the big picture.
There is a difference with a loving slap and a fistfight.
The woman of the video obviously went for latter. I don't approve it any more than you do.
Still I think that physical punishment is crucial in raising a child at certain stages of development. There are certain thigns that a child must learn not to do no matter how much he wants it. Failure in teaching those things may lead to the childs injury or death so if a child simply wont listen to reason or threats, he must be punished in a way that he learns he must respect you.
If the child learns that you're nothing to play with at an early enough age, he'll listen to your commands instead of doing whatever he wants. That way is the safest way for the child for sure.
I saw a document about the politically correct method to raise kids in my country. That involved 30 minute discussion with the child in the morning, negotiating what the kid should wear out. So in the end the child refused to put on warm clothing (-2C) and the parent let the child go out in a summer outfit, just because the child insisted and it was time to go to kindergarten. The parent couldn't say no, she couldn't force the kid to wear warm clothes no matter how he hated them, nothing.
That leaves the kid confused, first he was asked to do something he had no ability to decide himself yet, then he froze his bellybutton outside and probably got a flu as a result. Well, at least nobody endangered his ego and self-rule so he can grow up to be an arrogant selfish bastard who thinks he can do whatever he wants without anyone being able to stop him in the end.
Kids like that very often end up in a prison.
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Now don't get me wrong I don't believe in beating kids but spankings do have their place in some homes.
Coming from an abusive family I can tell you first hand how bad it can be.
Growing up it would have been:
Dewey takes ball from Troy.
Troy cries.
Dad: Why you son of a squeak take this and this and this this this this........
Dewey: But it was my ball he stole from my room.
Dad: WTF!? you talking back? go to your room and die!
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He ain't lyin'... :(
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I don't think there IS a 'big picture' here. This woman was WAY out of line. This event shouldn't have anything to do with a discussion of corporal punishment. Gladly, it seems that you think she was out of line too - the thing that I find amazing is that some people here are trying to equate what she did with corporal punishment and thereby defend her actions.
REGARDLESS of what I or anyone else thinks about spanking, this wasn't a swat on the but, or a slap on the hand for reaching for a hot burner. There was no discipline here - the kid wasn't even acting up - just random violence from a mother to her child. There's no defending that.
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Kratzer, just for clarity's sake, tell us who you think is defending the woman. Name names, please. Go ahead, I'll wait.
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Do any of you guys ever get kinda kinky with your wife and let her spank you? Just curious is all.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Kratzer, just for clarity's sake, tell us who you think is defending the woman. Name names, please. Go ahead, I'll wait.
If I may...
It has less to do with who is defending this woman, and more to do with who, believes that what she did was evidence to be used against the case for corporal punishment. I believe that Kratzer is saying that this action of hers goes beyond the scope of "spanking" and trying to use this as part of a case against spanking doesn't make sense. She wasn't spanking her kid, she was beating the crap outta her.
At least, that's how I read his post.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Do any of you guys ever get kinda kinky with your wife and let her spank you? Just curious is all.
I tried, but she said Thrawn was against it.
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I don't think anyone that's posted here is defending the actions of the woman in discussion. Obviously she was way out of line with what is considered acceptable by any group in our society.
Just for grins (actually it's for my records for when we have the revolution ;))
Where do the spank/no spank folks fall into the conservative/liberal groups?
I find it ironic that a typical liberal feels it's ok to kill a child before birth but not spank them after. I know the argument, it's not a child, it's a zygote, but who among us began life any different?
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There's a reason why they have weight-class divisions in boxing.
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Thanks for the clarity, Sikboy. I can see how it can be read both ways.
Moderate-conservative here, and spanking is A-OK with me.
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She was way out of line! No excuse.
As far as spanking goes, I practice it. But only for extreme misbehavior.
The whole concept of "disipline" is the imposition of ones will on another. When nations do it, it is called war.
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Exactly right, 2Slow. It is only a matter of the methodology.
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I don't have all the answers. And I'm not going to sit here and play, "Yeah but, what would you do if?", anymore. I do know that whatever my solution ends up being it will not involve violence. That is one of my limits. And I feel much more comfortable with that limit, then setting my limit at "whatever it takes".
About corporal punishment though, it's bad for the child. It is harmful to your child, do you understand? But I don't expect you to take my word for it. This is an exerpt from an article on an analysis of 88 studies on corporal punishement of the past 62 years. A link to the analysis is at the bottom of this post. It is the largest and most comprehensive analysis on corporal punishment.
"WASHINGTON -- Corporal punishment remains a widely used discipline technique in most American families, but it has also been a subject of controversy within the child development and psychological communities. In a large-scale meta-analysis of 88 studies, psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University, looked at both positive and negative behaviors in children that were associated with corporal punishment. Her research and commentaries on her work are published in the July issue of Psychological Bulletin, published by the American Psychological Association.
While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).
Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.
The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment."
Here is a link to analysis of 88 studies on corporal punishement of the past 62 years.
http://www.apa.org/journals/bul/press_releases/july_2002/bul1284539.pdf
And as far as using corporal punishment to socialise your child, sorry, you are having the exact opposite effect.
"The more spankings children experience, the greater the likelihood that they will engage in aggression and other anti-social behavior."
Study reported in Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, August 1997 by Murray A. Straus, David B. Sugarman, and Jean Giles-Sims
It is a good way to help them become drug addticts and nutbars.
"T O R O N T O Oct. 5, — Children spanked by their parents are twice as likely to develop drug and alcohol problems in adulthood, according to a Canadian study released today.
The study found that those who were spanked or slapped had increased rates of anxiety disorders, anti-social behavior and depression."
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805
Guess what, children that aren't spanked are smarter!
"This theory was tested on 960 children of mothers in the National Longitudinal Study of Youth. This sub-sample consists of the children who were age 1 to 4 in 1986 and for whom cognitiveability measures were available for 1986 and 1990. Corporal punishment was measured by whether the mother was observed hitting the child during the interview and by a question on frequency of spanking in the past week. A corporal punishment scale was created by summing the scores for 1986 and 1988. cognitiveability was measured in 1986 and 1990 by tests appropriate for the age of the child at the time of testing. The cognitive ability scores were standardized relative to other children within one month of the same age, setting the mean at 100 and the standard deviation at 15.
A multiple regression analysis controlled for mothers' age and edition, whether the father was present in the household, number of children in the family, mother's supportiveness and cognitive stimulation, ethnic group, and the child's age, gender,and birthweight. The results indicated that each increase of one point on the six interval corporal punishment scale was associated with an average decrease of .51 points on the measure of cognitiveability."
http://www.unh.edu/frl/cp51japa.htm
Well, lets see what the The American Academy of Pediatrics think about it. Hey, look at that they "stongly oppose" it.
"The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposes striking a child
From Caring for Your School-Age Child: Ages 5 to 12, © American Academy of Pediatrics (Bantam, 1995)
PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT
Parents often ask, "Should I spank my child?"
Many parents occasionally lose their patience or, in anger or fear, may spank their youngster. For instance, if a child runs out into the street, a parent may sweep the child up and, in a moment of anxiety for the child's well-being, spank her to emphasize the parent's sense of urgency or worry.
Spanking may relieve a parent's frustration for the moment and extinguish the undesirable behavior for a brief time. But it is the least effective way to discipline.
It is harmful emotionally to both parent and child. Not only can it result in physical harm, but it teaches children that violence is an acceptable way to discipline or express anger. While stopping the behavior temporarily, it does not teach alternative behavior. It also interferes with the development of trust, a sense of security, and effective communication. (Spanking often becomes the method of communication.) It also may cause emotional pain and resentment.
From Caring for Your School-Age Child: Ages 5 to 12, © American Academy of Pediatrics (Bantam, 1995) "
http://www.nospank.net/aap4-b.htm
So, all things being equal except the corporal pusnishment, your child will be:
-less intelligent.
-more anti-social (exact opposite of what your are attempting to do by spanking.
-more prone to anxiety
-more prone to depression.
-more prone to drug and alcohol abuse.
-more prone to criminal acts
-more prone to agression.
-more prone to child abuse
But, and here's your big plus!
-They will be more prone to be immediately compliant.
Keep hitting your kids guys! When my child is the boss of yours, because mines smarter, better socialised and have better mental health, yours will be "immediately compliant"!
Talk about stacking the deck against your own kid.
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How old is your child Thrawn?
I'm sorry but if you don't have kids or haven't raised kids then you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Kratzer, just for clarity's sake, tell us who you think is defending the woman. Name names, please. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Sorry, thought it was clear I was initially responding to Puke. I think Hussein and I just had a little disconnect...
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Originally posted by AKIron
How old is your child Thrawn?
I'm sorry but if you don't have kids or haven't raised kids then you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
roadkill. Good example of ad-hominem thought. You can't argue the points I brought up, so you try to attack me. Hell I'll be damned if you read my post in three minutes. Wether or not I'm a parent has nothing to do with my arguemenst against corporal punishment. They stand on thier own.
Question for you Iron. Say a guy has 10 kids, all 10 are in jail for dugs, assault, murder what have you. How qualified do you think he is to talk about how to parent well.
Jeesus :rolleyes:
I'm sorry but if you don't know anthing about logic and debate you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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I grew up with two brothers, now I've got three kids of my own, including two boys and AKIron is on target.
:)
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Thrawn, there have been many studies that back both sides of the argument. I'm more interested in hearing about personal experience in this case. I noticed you avoided answering my question. I'll take that as either you have a baby or no children. In which case I'll simply say let's talk again in 6 or 7 years.
To answer your question about the guy with kids in jail. He probably didn't do it right.
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Originally posted by hblair
I grew up with two brothers, now I've got three kids of my own, including two boys and AKIron is on target.
:)
You've asked me this question before HB, and I answered it. He's not right on.
I'll say the same thing to you now that I said then. I don't considered YOU qualifed to talk about raising kids because you've only had three.
You can stoke off AKIron all you want HB. But I find it interesting that you also have nothing to say about the scientific that prove that corporal punishment is bad. But I supposed that's not too surprising.
What about the people that produced the studies, do they have to be parents as well?
By your logic pepple on the is board that have never flown a WW2 plane but post QUOTES from WW2 pilots, arent qualified to do so!
LOL. Whee
What a minute...are you a creationsist?
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'm more interested in hearing about personal experience in this case.
I'm more interested in finding out weather or not corporal punishment is good or bad for your child.
I'll take that as either you have a baby or no children. In which case I'll simply say let's talk again in 6 or 7 years.
Cya.
I'm out of this thread, really..this time I mean it. :p
Thanks for your consideration and all that jazz. The info I posted is the tip of the iceburg. You all have access to the internet. Go ahead and read the info there. Scientific study has proven that you're hurting you kids in so many ways when you spank them. But, I can't agrue with pigheadedness.
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"I'm more interested in finding out weather or not corporal punishment is good or bad for your child."
Guess I just can't let it go. ;)
You're welcome to call and ask them. There are four of them aging from 19 to 28. The older three have their own kids, they'll agree with me that a smack on the butt is needed on occasion and is beneficial rather than harmful. The 19 year old will likely agree with you which kinda proves my point.
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That study:
Thrawn first of all, a selection that small leaves a margin of error that is astronomical.
Secondly, they measured the amount of corporal punishment applied in family by the amount their mothers were spanking the kids during the auditions. What about the mothers who were shy to hit the kids during the interview and beat the crap out of them later? Lol.
What about the chance that those kids who needed to be slapped during the audition were hyperactive, less social and generally more stupid than the average child and therefore needed tougher discipline? In fact I believe that was exactly the case. The parents were used to slap the bonehead prats so they did it even during supervision unconciously.
So, if we look at that kind of studies with even a tiny bit of criticism, we found out that the study had no base to begin with, too many unknown factors.
In fact, despite endless amounts of theories, nobody still knows exactly how a human being develops, gets his habits, IQ and possible homocidal impulses. ;) There simply are too many effecting factors and comparisons are made impossible since there aren't groups of people who would have exactly the same backgrounds, level of intelligence etc. Humans genetic variations cancel it alone, from syblings the other may become a genius and the other remain average or vice versa. How are you going to compare a group of families if you can't even compare the methods used within a single one with the results in hand?
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Keep hitting your kids guys! When my child is the boss of yours, because mines smarter, better socialised and have better mental health, yours will be "immediately compliant"!
I had no idea you were so fanatical about this. And to top it off with a juvenile taunt, no less! You weren't spanked by any chance, were you? ;)
Seriously, take a breath. As has already been pointed out, there is much about the studies you read that is open to debate. Further, I believe practical experience as a parent is a good basis for opinion as well. To use your analogy, to deny this would be like saying a WWII vet doesn't really know anything about the war or what happened.
My daughter, whom I've so cruelly beaten within an inch of her life on so many occasions (maybe five spankings in her entire life) is the head of her class and has maxed out her standardized state testing scores. Using your logic, this proves spanking made her smarter. Of course that is nonsense, just like assuming those that are spanked actually lose intelligence. I could have a field day poking holes in studies such as those. ;)
As for my daughter working for your kid? I wouldn't bet the bank on it. ;)
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Thrawn, You are a nut. Certified man. Hope they don't let you near the kids.
Wheee e e !
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Yea! well my daughter would kick both their butts and then take their lunch money!
But seriously folks, These debates always seem to range toward the extremes. As if the 2 sides are:
1. Beat them until they get some sense.
2. Never ever lay a hand on them.
Isn't it obvious that the correct answer (if there is one) is somewhere in the middle?
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FYI she just pleaded innocent.
should get interesting
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But there's the thing, MT... I've never taken the stance of "beating sense into kids" per se, but it is the way those that are totally against corporal punishment paint anyone that does spank. Spanking is merely one avenue of discipline to me, nothing more. The conclusion it is my only option is pretty myopic.
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#1 what she did was wrong.
#2 depends on the sevearity of what went on for spanking
#3 it should be no more than 3 wacks
#4 i hate being spanked loL!
good thing i cant fit on lap anymore
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God not another limp wrist trying to tell me what's best for MY kids!
Like Kieren I spanked my kids when they needed it and they are both top in their class. My Daughter is a Senior this year and she is ranked 3rd in a class of almost 400. My son is in 8th grade and has straight A's. Both are well mannered and liked by Teachers and students.
As a parent and as an employee of a school system I see everyday how the lack of spankings have hurt our kids more than they have helped. You can almost always tell the kids that have never been spanked by the way they treat others. Normally they treat others with the same disrespect they showed their dim witted parents.
Now am I saying that ALL kids should be spanked? No of course not! But anyone who says that one way is better than another as a whole has no freaking clue of what they are talking about.
Every kid is different and as such no 2 kids are going to need to be disciplined the same.
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That sucks dude. Hope you get back up soon with that wrist injury. I've come close to wrecking my wrists on numerous occasions.
I guess just lucky thus far.
:)
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oops wrong post, meant for the other ACL post.
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Thrawn,
Associative traits are NOT a clear indication of causal factors. The study must remove all other potential causal factors for the bad traits you list for it to be a truly effective argument based on causality from spanking. Hell there is not even at this time a clear indication of the cause of GOOD intelligence much less poor intelligence. IQ on the face of it is open to subjective determination as some rather intelligent people do not test well.
Second factor is to quantify the level of corporal punishment in the study cases of the children. If they are not ranked as to the severity (which admitedly would be damn hard) then you do not have a valid causal relationship. You are comparing open ended values and trying to draw a conclusion. Hardly valid.
Third problem is the validity of the data itself. Are they taken from police reports, hospital visits or a more subjective source. What is the rate of follow up observatioms? Are they one time events or continuous. Age of starting vs ending corporal punishment etc. for those included.
You can claim all you want but the fact remains there is a vast amount of data that corporal punishment is not the root cause of the worlds ills. Past society in America alone in the last 200 years is a clear example of that. Spanking , and yes child abuse itself, has existed throughout history. The majority of the aberant behaviours exibited to day are not new but they do seem more prevalent. Some could say that might be due to the reduction of spanking due to the "PC" factor of just the more recent discussions and stigma attributed by the oponents of spanking.
In conclusion let me remonstrate that there are 3 classes of liars. Liars, damned liars and statisticians. :rolleyes: