Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fuzeman on September 22, 2002, 09:09:13 PM
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Best bet would be to film your flights in the TA, and if you see offending behavior send the film to HTC. In the past disciplinary action has been taken. Might not have the immediate satsifaction of solving the problem, but I know they don't just sit around and twiddle their thumbs when evidence of wrongdoing is presented.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
Best bet would be to film your flights in the TA, and if you see offending behavior send the film to HTC. In the past disciplinary action has been taken. Might not have the immediate satsifaction of solving the problem, but I know they don't just sit around and twiddle their thumbs when evidence of wrongdoing is presented.
Yea but this doesnt help the new players who go there expecting some environment to learn in, and end up being vulched repeatedly, and then doing the same themselves. I can't see the training arena's rules ever being totally followed, maybe it would be better to rename it to try and stop newbies from getting thier first game experience there.
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Suprised to hear that. Pyro was the first head trainer for warbirds and things were very well run during my stay as a trainer. Give em time. They will get a training cadre together.
flat rate does that the incentive out. Flying for free in WB when it was $2/hour was quite a priveledge.
hardcase
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Not the same hardcase. There's a free two week trial and measly $14.95 price tag on this one. It does make things different... especially in the TA.
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I understand your frustration as I visited said TA just a few days ago. Bad things happend, but as it was during the week I guess the kids hadn't shown up in force. I saw a number of violations, but it wasn't rampant. Of course, I did get told to go F myself once for trying to explain the rules...
Yep, the TA needs a little Gestapo action. Maybe alittle time limit on how long you can be a member and still go in. Unless of course your an approved Trainer, with a badge and billy stick to back it up.
If you put a time limit on it, I'm sure the tards would migrate to the DA where who knows, maybe they'll learn a little humility.
Hell, I'd even step up for that, say 2-3 hours a week, but only if I had the billy stick. Otherwise it'd just be a journey in frustration.
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The reason you get the FFA furballers in the TA is there's nowhere else in AH for them go to and re-create that sort of fighting. Even in the DA you have to deal with airfields that are over 20 miles apart.
Where else in AH can you fly/fight, get shot down, and be back in the action inside 1 minute? Nowhere (except maybe HtH)!
Treating them like scum and booting them out probably isn't the answer; the TA has its own little community and they pay money too (I doubt HTC wants to lose business so a solution which keeps them in the game is desirable), and the MA/CT just doesnt; suit their tastes.
J_A_B
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Fuze, i sympathise with you man. evrytime i go into TA to try and improve my JABO, learn to fly 152 etc, you are always there trying to bring a little order to the chaos, and yes, you end up taking a lot of verbal flak for your trouble.
As far as lizards idea goes:"Maybe alittle time limit on how long you can be a member and still go in" I cant agree with that. I use the TA a lot, both for 1v1 dogfighting (the reduced lethality requires better gunnery) and bombing nme bases without the added problem of NME planes (but with hostile flak).
IMO HTC should give Fuzeman some privs, since he's the one doing a lot of their work. The TA needs policemen with teeth, not whistles.
Maybe more structured training would be helpful. The training system is compromised by the very short text buffer, which makes it very difficult to communicate with new players and give them instructions.
More players need to read the manual too!
Fuzeman, for your efforts
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just turn on kill shooter
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Gents,
I am a new AH player and i did my first online flight yesterday in the TA. I did actually shoot at people in the beginning before i realized the rules.
Someone, Candelere (or something similar) offered us to goto A18 for practice which i accepted. I learned A LOT from this practice and the help i received was very good as well. I am used to fly in another sim so i still have problems with especially the commands.
The issue is think is that people really want to shoot at each other and maybe there should be a TA duel arena available where we the new ones can shoot.
Cheers
Zipper9
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Originally posted by Turbot
just turn on kill shooter
That won't work because many squads practice ACM in the TA, meaning that they would have to log on in different countries, complicating communication (vox) tremendously.
I think that certain designated trainers should have the authority to boot unruly players on the spot for 15 minutes, or more as required.
The AH community can police itself, but only if it has the power to do so.
My regards,
Widewing
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I was part of the initial group of trainers and it's a problem that has existed since it's inception. Initially the issue seems to have revolved around the need for a Free for ALL (FFA). Personally I think having an FFA area in the TA is actually essential. almost all of the sticks who populated the TA back then were/are outstanding (DMF Nath, Cit, Nash avi8tr to mention a few). Most of them were a great help (at least with me) in the training process. From time to time the baby seal hunts were overdone but realistically that gets old for the better sticks fast. Most of the damage was "newbie to newbie"....unless the FFA was operating at the spawn base. Then once you got up off the runway you tended to be in play. Somewhere there are a bunch of old threads on this whole topic.
To solve the issue you need to authorize someone to boot TOS violators...my concern was/is eliminating the folks who can be the most help....the FFA "enthusiasts". After all the baby seals need to learn to bite somewhere:).
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As far as vox is concerned shouldnt they just be able to tune to 200+ for cross country coms in the event killshooter was enabled?
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I have to say that, with the exception of a couple folks, the TA has been pretty well behaved, lately. I have been in there almost every Sunday with my bro-in-law for training and we have had little in the way of problems.
Of course, the first thing that I do is shoot down all the field guns at A1. :D
Another option is to just move from A1. If they follow you and are still a pain then let HTC know.
Sour
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LOL....that was me Zipper...
I was actually quite surprised, and somewhat vindicated in my belief, that there is a BUNCH of new folks that actually want and desire to use the TA in the manor to which it is intended...To train and to learn. Zipper...thank you for the accknowledgement. It certainly helps to dull the bitter taste that I get from trying to be the "grownup" in that environment. People like yourself make trying to save this training arena, a worthy endevor. Thanks again, and welcome to Aces High, sir.
CHENAULT
CO 106th Airgroup
St. Jude...patron saint of TA trainers...be with us.
Originally posted by Zipper9
Gents,
I am a new AH player and i did my first online flight yesterday in the TA. I did actually shoot at people in the beginning before i realized the rules.
Someone, Candelere (or something similar) offered us to goto A18 for practice which i accepted. I learned A LOT from this practice and the help i received was very good as well. I am used to fly in another sim so i still have problems with especially the commands.
The issue is think is that people really want to shoot at each other and maybe there should be a TA duel arena available where we the new ones can shoot.
Cheers
Zipper9
;) ;) ;)
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Maybe I should log into that arena some time and play target in an FM2, just to see how many I can squirrel around. Might be a good place for me to practice dogfighting my Dauntless and A-20.
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I too have been shot down while taking off :mad: in the TA.
My solution was to repeatedly, and with disregard to anyone else, shoot that bastige down again and again and again :D
My version of tough love :p
Regards,
Drunky
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Don't be so hard on yourself about that incident Fuze, after I logged I was thinking that it's so hard to tell the newbies from the others that you can't really tell if someone just doesn't understand the rules or is being an prettythang.
I wonder if there could be a way to change the id color for newbies on their 2 week trial in the TA only. That way we would know who needed help and who was a vet in for practice.
Fuze was doing a great job in there, give him CM privs... he can be the new sheriff in town.....bang....bang
Viper
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Chaos in the TA isn't really a bad thing, it's normal. New players are bound to create chaos if for no other reason than they don't know different. You also have the basic bully who can be a big fish in a small pond. It's all normal behavior. A new player has no idea what the game requirements are in AH. The thing is to create a setup that will initially familiarize the player with the basics and naturally discourage unruly behavior.
IMO, the biggest issue for new users are knowing the rules and how to communicate. One of the biggest problems I have seen in helping new players is getting them to respond. Perhaps upon initially entering the TA the players would be presented a readme file that they must scroll through. This could simply state the rules and describe how to use the radio.
Instead of killshooter, a setting that will acknowledge a friendly kill but not destroy the target would be a good way to deal with the friendly kill issue. The shooter may see an explosion, but the other plane would fly on as if nothing hit him. That way players would not be affected by friendly kills, but players on the same team could still practice on each other.
Limiting the number of points accumulated could be used to wean players from the TA. After reaching this points limit, they no longer get any ammo. This way experienced players can still help the new ones, but bullies would be powerless. Since many of these bullies are defiant and cause havoc on the radio, a point limit would help with the radio anarchy also. Of course, this would make the place unsuitable for more advanced training and practice.
That brings up another suggestion, separate new user and training arenas. For what it's worth, AirWarrior had that and it seemed to work quite well.
It can't be expected to have trainers or monitors with eject powers available at all times in any arena, so perhaps a command can be added to allow players to summon for help if a problem arises. I think most online multiplayer games have this feature.
Providing a separate free for all arena might be ok, but I fear it might become an alternative to the other arenas where players learn to work together in some form of organized play.
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Originally posted by fuze
Drunky, the 'eye for an eye' attitude is one of the things that continues the problem. When I get 'infracted upon' I point out what they did wrong and there is a better chance they will stop if they want to comply with the basic guidelines HTC has set up...
Don't get me wrong...I point out that vulching (among other things) is not proper. When the offending person continues I usually repeat my request. If the behaviour continues that is when I act.
I'm not too concerned about being "politically correct". I'm certainly not a touchie-feelie type of guy. I simply want that person to experience some of the same treatment. I don't necessarily vulch him while he tries to take off, but I will get him again and again. Call it negative reinforcement behaviour conditioning, "getting a taste of your own medicine" or call it uncouth. Doesn't matter to me.
I'm not too concerned about most of the rules but I find it very, very upsetting when someone will not let you up. Vulching in this paradigm is uncalled for and basically the action of a bully or a punk trying to act big.
Regards,
Drunky
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TA needs a switch to turn bullets hitting your plane on and off. If you don't turn on (O.K. to engage ) bullets hitting you does nothing.
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Good try Fuzeman but they are not interested ,,,,,you were doomed from the git go!! Sorry if I gave you a hard time in the TA the other day, guess i'm fustrated and disappointed.......X pee lot......lol
Soar,,,,,,,moved on bye bye
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Just out of curiosity, what in the world are the so-called "regulars" doing there when they pay the same monthly fees?
It's like paying big expensive bucks for the final game of the World Series and then, visit the stadium restroom, take a piss, and go home and watch it on TV..
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Hi Fuze, nice that you try to get them to behave... incidently, are you the fuzeman who was flying for the bish a few days ago? That guy helped me out a couple of times *grateful*. We discussed gun behavior as well.
I am also quite new, but being based in Europe, there never seemed to be anyone in the TA when I logged in. So I proceeded to the MA and had to learn myself. When you're all new to AH, it is a bit overawing and there are still plenty of things I don't know. And yes, I read the manual.
It would be quite nice to fly with someone in the TA who knows his stuff, do some ACM, air to ground and saturate him with questions.
And, on a personal note, I really love the game (not that much time to play it though) but some people on the BBS and when playing the game make me sick. Unreasonable, rude, never satisfied with anything, disrespectful to the extreme... and worse still, this may lead otherwise very reasonable people into the same behavior out of sheer frustration. That REALLY sucks.
I think that quite a lot of the scum that spoils the atmosphere here would never dare to have such an attitude in IRL and are actually underendowed weenies with a 400lbs wife (see, it even affects me too!).
Bottom line is: I would love to fly in the TA with someone who knows his stuff and improve myself.
Regards,
Ronald
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Just out of curiosity, what in the world are the so-called "regulars" doing there when they pay the same monthly fees?
It's like paying big expensive bucks for the final game of the World Series and then, visit the stadium restroom, take a piss, and go home and watch it on TV..
More like havin' a contract with the national league, wherebye if you drop in on the junior league and answer a few questions every now and then, they let you into the super league stadiums free ......every now and then.
Personally, I drop in to the TA fairly 'regularly' just to warm up before hitting the MA.
If you are lucky, while you are in there, you get to teach a new guy something, if you are real lucky, he'll be gratefull and remember you come time to sign up for a subscription.
At this point I believe they are asked who helped them out, the handle they give, gets $ credited to their account.......who knows, help a few newbies out, you might just get to fly for free.
Some of these guys dont stand a snowball's chance in Hell of surviving two minutes in the MA, show 'em around a bit, how to use the clipboard, the map, what the differant symbols and dots and bars mean etc., how to map controls, how to set convergance and select loadout, how to spawn on a runway.....all of these things that are second nature to us, are, in general, very confusing to a guy who saw the add on WD and downloaded the software today..........most,no, in my experience, ALL, will be appreciative of your time and effort, and it may earn you a few HTC bucks in the old kitty.
Apart from that, I remember guys helping me out when I was a newbie, I remember it helped me a great deal, and I was thankfull toward them......I kinda think if I do the same for some new guys now, goes some way to showing my appreciation.
Allso, some seriously good, loooooong dogfights, 1 on 1 with some of the not-so-newbies
Blue
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I think being able to turn off/on bullets & damage might help solve this problem.
Turn off means your bullets won't cause damage and your plane won't take damage, On meaning bullets & damage. Not sure if this is even possible to code or the difficulty envolved. Sure some would figure out a way to be a trouble anyways & break rules.
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I have a theory:
The TA is there to get you disgusted after you've acquired natural skillz for verbally abusing everyone around you after you've become quite good, forcing you to go to the MA.
The MA grows quite long in the tooth since its basically a quake FFA, which forces you to the CT.
The CT is always empty, so it forces you to the SEA.
The SEA is where its happening. :D
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Ok fuzeman,..I wil take the bait :D.
I have spent a lot of time in the TA to help, as we do realize there are a ton of new people to AH. I also have become aware of the problem with pilots not minding the rules of engagement in the TA and have shown up there to reinforce those rules.
You want to see me post more? It's rather simple. I will almost always participate in discussions about any issue, when I see the discussions are trying to move to a resolution and are doing so, showing the posters some respect.
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Fuze
TA requires a hide like a waterbuffalo.
Man you have to let it all just roll off your back or it will drive you insane.
Seriously too much time in the TA will do bad things to your composure, your gunnery, your flying skills.
Keep up the good work but when it rains be a duck.
Stick your head down in the muck and wiggle your butt at em :)
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do you smell something burning?
Yes, but its not the roast....
Carry on!
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At the very least, the mannable ack should be disabled.
Without tracers, alot of newbies are being killed by it and have no idea what is occuring.
They become extremely frustrated when they keep dying on the takeoff role when no planes or GV's are present.
F.
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Fuze ... you might want to put that shovel down and step out of that grave you're digging. ;)
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Fuze, I would suggest,at the very least you drop the shovel.
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I dropped in to the Training Arena yesterday to see what it was like. As stated, many players were going at each other. There was no AH person there to smooth things out.
I think this is to be expected, leaving these players on their own is going to result in this. But I did notice something else. Those experienced players in there to help spent their time hollering at the players for breaking the rules. It seemed to me that they were more concerned with beating up on the bad guys than helping the new ones.
This kind of conduct does nothing to train anyone and can make the situation worse.
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30 minutes in the TA.
Racial slurs, the typical 'your momma' stuff, and the regular and expected every rule in the book going by the wayside. The experienced players are overwhelmed by the infractions and CAN'T train new players.
You want it that way... you got it that way.
I just go there to laugh now, and it gets funnier every day and 'they' let it continue. There are still some who haven't given up on it.
I suggest... phooie. 'They' don't give a hoot, period, end of story.
fuzeman
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30 minutes in the TA.
Racial slurs, the typical 'your momma' stuff, ...
Same as the MA. That's why so many people squelch channel 1. There are many, many immature people (even the experienced ones) in the MA...the TA is not an anomoly ;)
...and the regular and expected every rule in the book going by the wayside. The experienced players are overwhelmed by the infractions and CAN'T train new players.
Not true. Saturday I helped one player with bombing and two or three others with simple questions. During this time I nicely reminded people who engaged me without asking first that they should before hand. If they kept doing it...well then, I shot them down (but I did not shoot the deputy hehe, a little Marley).
As an experienced player, one would expect a little more restraint than to refer to some of the people in the TA as "pinhead". If you absolutely can't train at A1 you can simply move with the trainee to another base. It's a big map with 3 countries to chose from. As Gene Wilder said in a movie once, "I'll take this town and you take the rest of the whole world." :D
Incidentally, I did get shot at without permission 8 or 10 times Saturday. Funny, thing is only one killed me. It was relatively easy to me evade most of them. :p
You want it that way... you got it that way.
I just go there to laugh now, and it gets funnier every day and 'they' let it continue. There are still some who haven't given up on it.
I suggest... phooie. 'They' don't give a hoot, period, end of story.
Carefull...you might have gone from digging a hole to skating on thin ice. You might want to watch your comments because 'they' obviously read this board also. ;)
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fuze, I think you pissed away any moral authority you had on this thread. I don't see why you continue to make an bellybutton of yourself here.
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Originally posted by fuze
...You want it that way, you got it that way.
I just go there to laugh now, and it gets funnier every day and 'they' let it continue. There are still some who haven't given up on it.
I suggest... phooie. 'They' don't give a hoot, period, end of story.
fuzeman
Left to their own devices, there will be mayhem in the TA regardless of the rules. I have to assume training can still go on if it is done in a remote area, using the proximity or personal channel with others muted (can you mute the country channel?).
I'm not going to second guess HTC. They have to balance services with cost. But I suggest a few things that can help and keep the cost down.
* More use of volunteers for training, supervised by a volunteer with skills to do it well. I understand this may be the case now, but I have to wonder how much priority it has. I know someone who can make it work with little involvement from HTC. I've seen this work with great success.
* A change in the arena to eliminate friendly kill damage. A kill message can be displayed without actual damage to the target. This would work for training (even better since the killed player would not have to reup) but prevent fraggers from causing disruption.
* Two arenas, training, and new players. The training arena only open during scheduled hours when trainers are available. The new player arena stops supplying ammo after a player has accumulated X amount of points or has played AW for X amount of time. That way experienced players can't bully the new players, but can still help them.
Unless something like this is done, the traing arena will always be chaos when unsupervised, and even then too much authority and ejecting can dissuade new customers. Going in there and chastizing players for breaking the rules, and shooting them down if they ignore you, further aggravates the situation and makes you part of the problem.
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I have another suggestion for the training/newbie arena.
A new player needs to know how to use the radio before anyone can help them. I suggest basic instructions on this be made available as sort of a Help File, perhaps displayed on the clip board.
Other basic commands, such as navigating the around in the user interface, what the various rooms are for, how to sign up for help, selecting a vehicle, starting engines, a key command chart, etc. This will allow players to get started more easily. Lord knows they aren't going to read the manual =o)
A lot of simple questions are asked repeatedly, and players can get weary of answering them. This usually results in a RTFM reply, which isn't very cool.
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Didn't read all the posts, maybe someone has already suggested this: make killshooter an individually selectable option in the TA.
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[POP, fuzeman pulls his head out of his arse]
[[ It was up there so far it took awhile. ]]
It seems 'they' do care and changes have been implemented and are being implemented.
Vaq, I don't think this will mean much but, my aploogies to you and yours. I was out of bounds by a light year or two, if not farther. I STILL deserve a big dope-slap upside my head though.
HiTech and the HTC staff, my apologies to you also. It has to be a bear at times doing the things you do. You do a good job with the resources you have.
There was no excuse for my actions, except that maybe at times, like days that end in y, I'm just a stOOpid marOOn.
I can only hope I learn something about myself from this, even with this thick skull I have.
fuzeman
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fuze, it means everything, of course. I have edited my previous post.
I want to apologise to you, fuze. I was wrong to attack you the way I did. I was upset and I "spoke" without thought.
I know that I cannot put the thermonuclear explosion back in the casing- but would like you to know that I am sorry for what I said.
vaq
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VAQ,
I accept it but you don't need to give it.
You did absolutely nothing wrong.
If some bonehead, me, didn't start this it wouldn't have progressed as it did. Any good man would come to the defense of his flesh and blood.
Lets bury the hatchet.
I know a good spot to... right in my pointy head.
fuzeman
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I drop into the TA from time to time and I'd like to offer my .02 cents worth, if I may.
HiTech spends a ton of money to produce and air a commercial to TRY and get some new players in here, gets some new players interested and what happens? A few MA "sportsmen" drop in to take advantage of the Seal Clubbing and use it to sharpen their vulching techniques. Now THAT'S how we show people how much fun Aces High is- we vulch them!
Last night I drop in and the ammo lethality was turned way down. Guess who was squeaking about it? LOL That's right, the same group of MA seal clubbers who were waxing the newbies earlier were frustrated because they were shooting blanks. Thankfully those "sportsmen" left in frustration over having to possibly work for their kills in the MA.
But do you know what I noticed? The new players were actually getting off the ground and flying for a bit. They were actually enjoying themselves. Face it, nobody likes getting shot down, so why should their introduction to Aces High be a stream of red screens? I upped in a B17 formation and after an hour or so of flying around I think every newbie put some cotton balls in my 6 while I praticed calibrating my gunsight. Turning down the ammo lethality was a wise move IMHO. There was also less squeaking about the vulching too. Who cares if someone shoots you if it doesn't have a significant result?
Another thing I noticed was the amount of MA pilots who were in the TA to help out the newbies. Ghosth, Chenault and many others are taking the time to help out these new players with advice and suggestions. Skuzzy popped in on his own time also to help out. Every newbie question was answered by half a dozen vets willing to help out.
There's an old saying that says if you aren't part of the solution then you're part of the problem. Our problem is attracting and KEEPING new players intrested in our Sim. The solution is all of us getting involved occasionally and helping out trainees, all of us doing what we can to promote AH and all of us acting civily to trainees and each other in the TA and the MA.
Ordinarily I don't post here but this is important to me on a selfish level. I'm spending my time learning to play this game and I'd hate to see the plug pulled on this sim and other similar sims due to a lack of a player base. If AH and WB close up then what's left? Fighter Ace? Red Baron? WW2OL?
HT, keep the ammo settings all the way down in the TA please. It lets the newbies get airborne and keeps the MA vulchers out.
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The normal ammo lethality is already reduced in the TA. Has it been lowered even more? Not a bad idea if it has been adjusted again. :D One of my most enjoyable fights in the TA was with MISGMX (
mate). We turn fought with zeke and yak for almost five minutes, getting a few pings here and there. You could see the hit sprites, which was very enjoyable, but we were able to keep flying :D
LOL Elfen...1111 posts and you are still learning how to fly this game ;) :p
A few MA "sportsmen" drop in to take advantage of the Seal Clubbing and use it to sharpen their vulching techniques. Now THAT'S how we show people how much fun Aces High is- we vulch them!
BTW...are you sure they were "MA sportsmen"? I drop in on an irregular basis and I rarely see people from the MA there. Certainly not in numbers.
There are a number of people that I see in the TA on a regular basis. Would it be possible that these "more experienced" TA'ers are the one beating up on the newbies?
I say this because I've seen the message get repeated by several people telling "xxxx" to stop vulching or engaging people every 3 minutes or so. Funny thing is "xxxx" says he's sorry and then does it again. I'm not pointing out a specific pilot, I've seen several different ones...I'm just pointing out that often they do it, get told 'no', they apologize and then do it again.
Regards
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Drunky I dropped in there after reading Fuze's rant. I dropped back in last night curious to see if there was a staff presence or at least responsible vets since there seems to be a surge in the population there. LOL I stand corrected on the general make up of the Training Arena. I yield to your superior experience in the TA.
I was pleased to see a presence of vets and I was delighted that they turned down the ammo lethality. In fact now I'll drop in to the TA more often to offer what help and encouragement I can to new pilots. Of course I will also lie to them and tell them I am the greatest pilot in the Main Arena, but hey, you know me.