Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs on February 17, 2001, 09:41:00 AM
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Ok, so we allready have an island in the middle that could, and was maybe intended to be, "furball island"... trouble is, the fields are capturable and resorces killable. whenever I log on they are all red or all green or shortly to be so. The anal, Amish, strat weenies have devestated any fields in the rest of the map that could be of any use to the furball set and.... furballers are logging.
I propose that we make those fields uncapturable and further, that no bombers be allowed to take off from em... Island fields would not affect the outcome of the war...this would provide CHOICE. the furballers would be no threat to the developing (cough) war or perk point gathering... Only fighter "perk" points could be gotten at the island and no idiotic perk planes could take off from em.
So really, what would it hurt?
lazs
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Poor ol Laz....
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Yes.
Also disable the Porkwinds from spawning anywhere on Furball Island. If you want to have panzer battles out in that valley, go for it! But no ZSU-23/4's.
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Well Lazs, I think............
AHHHHHHH FORGET IT!
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I Hate It When That Happens!
[This message has been edited by goat10 (edited 02-17-2001).]
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NOWAY!!! go to the TA and organize a furball there.
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It could be named "Laz's fantasy island". Of course, you'd have to greet everyone as they arrived wearing your white suite and having a sidekick standing at your side. It could even be made into a television show.
I actually think the odds of getting the television show are a tad bit better than getting a fantasy island in the MA.
AKDejaVu
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I agree with this idea.
In fact, to further the furballer island, place the fields closer than typical than other AH fields--lets say 10-15 miles apart. And make their short-range acks un-destroyable to prevent vulching, but disable the 88's there.
This "fightertown" system has worked well in AirWarrior without disrupting the overall gameplay of the arena; I can see no reason for it NOT to work equally well in AH.
And no, I am not usually a furballer. It's just a good idea.
J_A_B
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TA
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Yes, please!
anRky
-Ih8ubb
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Sounds like a nice place to visit in a Tempest or Me262 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Just go to the TA or set it up in H2H Laz. If so many are interested in your furball, they will come to where you are.
If you find yourself flying alone then you might realize that "furball only" is useless and has no point.
Midnight
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LOL.. hear a lot of fear but no real reasons not to have it.. It would have no impact at all on the strat guys or the perk jerks.
I think it would be a lot of fun for a lot of people and add some choice back to the arena.
So what's the problem with it? it will have no affect whether people use it or not. unless you are afraid that people might use it too much??? there's that "f" word again that the Amish hate so much.
Funked...yep your right
jekl... sure, perk jerks would be welcome but I doubt they would be all that happy flying several sectors simply to put their hard "earned" perkie mobile in harms way in a crowd. wouldn't they be better off continueing to look for loners or hiding from each other?
lazs
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oh... couple things. TA or seperate arena won't work. It won't work any better for a furball than it would work setting up a seperate "historical" arena axis vs alleid RPS etc... people go to the numbers. forget a seperate arena. H2H is work to set up and limited. NO.... the island is a way to add choice, variety and maybe attract new players...let's face it... the old ones are gettin a little stale.
JAB... how did that fightertown thing work? Was it as big a threat to the strat weenies as they fear or was it just a fun place to blow off steam?
What happened to the "change is good" and "give it a chance" set?? LOL friggin hypocrites.
lazs
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Furball island would be like Temptation Island to some. They would not resist trying to use thier ride amongst furballers. Some that is. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm all for it a small area dedicated to fighters only.
-Westy
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"LizKing: thou art so terribly foolish. Thou speakest of things ye know all too little of. Enjoy thy ignorance, for it is indeed vast and profound. - DoK"
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Its called Training Arena in the middle island Laz. Free for all and a boatload of ammo for the furballers to spray.
Have fun.
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what? dude, i hope a dingo eats your baby
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I just want to make two points:
1. That is NOT the purpose of the TA. It's their for training, not furballing.
2. The whole point is to have someplace where you can always find quick A2A action IN THE MA. The trick here is to try to accomodate different playing styles all in the same arena. A "furball island" idea, as first put forth by my squadmate eagl (AFAIK), is one way to accomplish that IMHO.
Why is it that fliers like myself who just want A2A action are perfectly happy to have an arena where BOTH strat and furballing are available and encouraged, where as the folks that want strat seem to get upset at the idea that they can't decimate every single field in the arena? Just what is so wrong with having one small part of the main arena that is set up to encourage a different style of play? So what if there are three fields that you can't destroy, that are never part of the larger strategic war system in the main arena? Please explain what is so bad about that idea. Wouldn't it allow both types of players to participate in the same arena together? Heck, if you want more organized folks to play the strat game, I think you NEED to have the furballer crowd in the same arena to have a pool of pilots to draw from.
Remember guys, both types of players need each other. If you ever want enough folks online to make something like a HA feasible, you have to be as inclusive as possible to get the numbers, IMHO. toejamting all over those of us who like to "furball" just because we don't want to play "your way" will not accomplish anything. I could make all kinds of derisive comments about folks that like to capture virtual bases, but it won't help the situation. Instead lets discuss the issues. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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The need for a "furball island" is what is being questioned.
Why?
Have you ever logged onto the arena and not been able to find a fight within 4 minutes? Are we really trying to minimize that with a furball island? I just don't remember EVER seeing a map where there wasn't a furball somewhere. Time to stop being fricking lazy people. The key is "esc" and it pulls up a map. Those large red sector bars mean lots of enemies are there. pick a base close and go for it. I guarantee you will find a fight.
Move the bases closer together and you'll have < 5k fites where everyone is diving for ack. You'll still have one group gang-banging another. The fights won't be "fair" and people will still whine. Eventually, people will fly high to get massive alt advantages and pick off the low flying furballers... then those people will be whining.
Any move to make the game more like quake should be discouraged. You want to furball.. find a group of planes and do it. The means are already there.
AKDejaVu
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lazs wrote:
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JAB... how did that fightertown thing work? Was it as big a threat to the strat weenies as they fear or was it just a fun place to blow off steam?
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Well I'm not JAB, but...
Yes, the introduction of fightertown did have a big effect on the strategic situation, but that was mostly because the map that was used was very poorly designed for arena play in the first place. FT wasn't in the middle of the map; the map itself couldn't even be equally divided among the three sides. There were other problems, too, the biggest of which was that while FT was uncaptureable, it couldn't be made invulnerable, so people were always 'porking' it.
However, it was quite a success. FT attracted many of the best pilots, was very a humbling experience, and it was a great place to learn to fight. Some of my best AW memories (not counting scenarios, of course) are of the old fightertown.
Eventually they moved FT to its own arena, and although it had enough momentum to live on for a little while, it couldn't survive on its own. People just don't log on to an arena with low numbers.
anRky
-Ih8ubb
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You have described my favorite H2H arena. Disable all the ground crap, set 88,s at 0.000000(they still hit you, but no damage). Enable fighters at the V bases, disable all the outlying fields. You have a scale that is usable for even 8 player.
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anRky sums it up pretty well. FT was as follows:
In AW, the FT island, aside from the fact that the map itself had problems, did not seriously affect the overall strategic situation. Since no bombers were available there, nothing launching from the bases could do serious harm to much of anything. It WAS a great deal of fun, especially when the arena had fairly low numbers. There were no strat targets on the island, and the individual bases were eventually made indestructable (well AW's equivilent of indestructible, which was buildings regenerate in like 30 seconds). The people who played the strat game could easily ignore this part of the arena--it had NO effect on the "war" as a whole.
Setup was about like this: The FT island itself was a good distance from the other bases, but not TOO far, and close to centrally located. There were 3 bases on the island (well it was an atoll, but same idea). These bases were all about 10 miles from each other--in other words, VERY close. Acks were limited to 5k feet (as with most AW acks), but they regenerated in like 15 seconds so vulching was basically impossible. No bombers available from these fields, either. The bases could not be captured, and as noted above eventually became indestructable.
The community accepted this little area, and had its own rules--people who were alt monkeys or excessive runners at the FT atoll were usually yelled at a lot, even by crountrymates, and asked to go to another part of the arena. This seldom happened except in cases involving newbies, since most everyone knew what FT was for. Ganging was, less of a problem than elsewhere in the arena, mainly because if you died you could be back up and fighting very quickly.
AH, I feel, could take this a seep further.
In AH I am sure the bases could be modified such that no fighters upping from "FighterTown" could carry bombs or droptanks. The bases shouldn't have the 88's as they tend to ruin dogfights, but need the 40mm's to prevent vulching. Osties and tanks should be dis-allowed, but M-16's might be useful (they're more vulnerable to flak and strafing).
I still think it would work well in AH, and would be a great improvement to the game for a lot of people. I am not the "furballer" myself, but it DOES provide a great relief from the "war" now and then. Dedicated furballers would doubtlessly LOVE such an island. And, since it wouldn't harm the "strat" aspect of the game, there is no harm in it.
It's a good idea. Maybe someone needs to make a map with the terrain editor (which is itself a wonderful feature).
J_A_B
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Or make middle island have NO ack, buildings be indestructible, middle island bases not count in the "victory" when reset comes, anyone launching from any field in middle island will get NO perks for ANY kills. Any fighter that took off from middle island will not give perks when dead either.
Do that, and you can get all the furballers in one spot and not hurt the efforts of the strat players.
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Sounds good Tac. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AKDejaVu said:
The need for a "furball island" is what is being questioned.
Why?
Have you ever logged onto the arena and not been able to find a fight within 4 minutes?
YES! At least a handful of times in the last few weeks, and I play when the eastern US does, so the arena has plenty of folks in it. The need for furball island, IMHO, comes from several factors.
1. Low #'s of players in off peak times. When there are only a few online, it can be tough to find a fight, especially if one groups is busily bombing things.
2. Strat players close the fields close to the fight, or at least take down the FH's so fighters can't launch. Players can't launch from the fields that are close to the fight, because the FH is down or the fuel is down. You can't get a "quick fight" because it takes you 15 minutes to get to it in the first place. Then when you get there, you find the strat guys on your team have closed the FH on at the other field, and your opposition dries up.
3. One side is being totally overwhelmed for whatever reason, preventing A2A players from launching with gas and enough time to get any alt.
4. Strat players have nuked radar so somebody logging in for a quick flight can't find a fight. I've seen radar totally down for over an hour and spent a lot of time flying around uselessly. Take away the dot radar if you want, but if it's all gone I have no idea where to find a fight.
The bottom line is that the situations above restricts the player's choices and prompts some players to log off. Regardless of what your opinion is on that fact, it's still a fact, and it's a BAD THING for the game overall IMHO. Many folks just don't have the time to spend an hour or more flying AH at a session, I know I often don't. There are days I have a 1/2 an hour to spend before dinner where I log into AH for some quick action, and sometimes they go like this: "Hmmm, get into the arena and radar is down. Mass confusion on the radio and nobody seems to know where the fight is. Finally I gather a forward field is hot, so I check it out. Nope, FH is down. Ok, move one field over, it's a ways off but I should have time for a fight or two. Nope, no gas. Log out."
Now often I'll try anyway, but I sometimes just end up flying around for a while looking for action. It would be really nice if there was one place on the map where I knew I would be very likely find a fight, and I knew I could ALWAYS grab my favourite plane and have a go. I don't want a fair fight, I don't want "equality" or anything so silly, I just want freedom from the strat system. When I am time limited or I just feel like it, I want to be able to furball or A2A fight how I choose without searching around for a field near the action that has gas and a working FH.
Now, that's why I think we need it. Is there any reason why it would hurt the strat system if "furball island" existed?
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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what you guys want is head to head play. Up to 8 can play... and you can do it anyway you want.
And Lephturn.. you want to completely restructure the arena and the environment of the game because of the "handful" of times you couldn't find an instant fight?
I fail to see how a furball island is going to help you find fights in off hours. You are assuming that those that don't want to be found are going to be hanging out where you want them to be. Of course... if that were the case, you wouldn't need the island anyways because they'd already all be together flying between two bases.
A furball island does not offer anything that isn't already in the game. Zero.
There will still be ack diving. There will still be vulching. People will still gang up on others. People will still play alt-monkey runstang g-10 games. People will still HO. People will still fly N1Ks and F4u-1Cs. Furball island fixes absolutely none of it. It simply provides another barrier in the arena.. and completely new feul for incessant whining on the BBS.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by lazs:
LOL.. hear a lot of fear but no real reasons not to have it.. It would have no impact at all on the strat guys or the perk jerks.
I think it would be a lot of fun for a lot of people and add some choice back to the arena.
So what's the problem with it? it will have no affect whether people use it or not. unless you are afraid that people might use it too much??? there's that "f" word again that the Amish hate so much.
Funked...yep your right
jekl... sure, perk jerks would be welcome but I doubt they would be all that happy flying several sectors simply to put their hard "earned" perkie mobile in harms way in a crowd. wouldn't they be better off continueing to look for loners or hiding from each other?
lazs
Why is it lazs that you are not content merely to disagree with anyone who does not choose to fly YOUR way or YOUR aircraft? Why is it that you feel this need to denigrate those who want something different from Aces High.
We've had 'phony realists'
We've had 'the amish'
Now we've got 'perk jerks'
Together with a whole host of other phrases which roll effortlessly from your tongue like pure toejam!
Please lazs. Find a game (and a BBS) you like and stay there. Only just let me know what game and BBS its gonna be.
Pyro, can we please have a 'squelch poster' option?
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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AKDejaVu said:
And Lephturn.. you want to completely restructure the arena and the environment of the game because of the "handful" of times you couldn't find an instant fight?
No. I was replying to your question about whether I had ever had trouble finding a fight. I gave four other reasons why I felt something like furball island was needed. The bottom line is, it's needed to stop folks from logging off, or not logging in at all in some situations.
Yes, furball island DOES offer something that isn't already in the game. It offers me a place where I can ALWAYS launch my Jug with 100% fuel. No matter what else is happening in the arena, I know I can go to that field, launch in my favourite ride, and have it full of gas. Not only that, but I think it offers a higher propability that I could find a quick fight if I wanted to.
Also, this isn't a "complete restructure" of the arena. It's a limit placed on one small part of the arena. That's it. Nothing more than that. Simply three fields in one small area that you can't destroy. No other changes required.
AKDejaVu also said:
There will still be ack diving. There will still be vulching. People will still gang up on others. People will still play alt-monkey runstang g-10 games. People will still HO. People will still fly N1Ks and F4u-1Cs. Furball island fixes absolutely none of it. It simply provides another barrier in the arena.. and completely new feul for incessant whining on the BBS.
Where did this come from? Of course it won't change any of that, that's the point! I don't expect or even WANT this minor change to affect any of those things. Heck, all that above stuff you mention is the essence of an online flight sim! I don't know what you want to "fix", but most of the things you mention aren't things that are broken IMHO, their just the nature of the beast. And nothing will stop the whining... ever. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) All of those things are what YOU think are problems with the arena, but it's not fair criticize this proposal based on the fact that it doesn't solve your pet peaves. I laid out what I think the issues were up there in four points, and I think furball island would help in all of those situations.
Explain to me how it's a "barrier" in the arena? More of a barrier than an arena where everybody is at the mercy of the strat system? A barrier to what?
I would still like to hear why this would be a bad thing for the arena. Lets ignore the question of whether it's needed or not for now, and assume furball island was actually implemented. What do you think the effect would be? I'm talking about the small island in the center of the map as normal, but with no high alt flak, and the rest of the bases as normal. The only difference is that everything at these three bases are indestructable. The rest of the arena is as normal.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-18-2001).]
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If they interduced laz ,s idea to the main, they would get my 30 bucks for what its worth.
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Just what is so wrong with having one small part of the main arena that is set up to encourage a different style of play?
I agree with Lephturn here. I for one am looking forward to an island in the MA where there are friendly icons only, or no range data on enemies within 2000 yds.
How about a section of the arena where every aircraft carries Hispanos, or Mg151/20s irrespective of their nationality?
Or another section where its only ground vehicles, or only buffs or.. or.. or ..
Oh, you mean its only OK if it encourages YOUR style of play? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Thought so!
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Dejavu,
I'm not sure what you're afraid of. The only mod to the current arena would be to slightly increase hardness of the 3 central airfields (through building hardness or increased amount of light AAA) and remove the vehicle fields and spawn points.
Why does this threaten you and the way you play? In essence, the arguments against these mods are something like this:
That would encourage furballing (well, duh)
You can already find furballs if you only look hard enough.
You should take your air combat to another arena.
If you just want to dogfight, "trust me" you'll be happier playing it H2H.
I'm sorry my friend, but you're basically saying that the difficulties I've had in AH finding good MASSIVE air battles is entirely one big halucination. You're saying that if I want air combat, I should be satisfied with 4v4? That's a crock. I look for big aircraft-only battles when online, and when I don't find them, I tend to log out. Why can't you accept the fact that I and others think this way instead of calling us a bunch of mental cases?
Seriously, it gets old when people try to tell me "you're having fun, trust me, and if you're not having fun, it's your own damn fault so go away". I don't want to take ANYTHING away from anyone elses game as you seem to want to do, I and others are advocating a minor change that would appeal to a portion of the AH community without affecting the rest at all.
Suggesting that furballers should be satisfied with 8 player H2H is an insult. If I wanted to play 4v4, I'd use a different game (I won't say which one) for various reasons. But that isn't enough, and hasn't been good enough since early CK beta.
Imagine how pissed you'd be if I was asking HTC to remove bomber hangars from all fields except major airfields, or if I asked Pyro to stop producing new planes. Those things are important to how YOU play the game, so I won't insult you by trying to point out how you'll be happier if we made those "obviously" horrible changes.
So if any of you have an honest reason why making a few mods to furball island would destroy your fun in the arena, let us all know. I'm dying to hear what would be so bad about letting furballers have their big furball. Otherwise keep your preaching to another thread please. If you can't stand what goes on in and around furballs, there's an entire arena to play in so you don't have to stop out other people's fun.
Heh, I'm done preaching myself. Flame away, I'm honestly curious to see if anyone has a real case against a furball island.
edit: The details of the changes will be, always have been, up to HTC staff, so arguing about the exact changes is pointless. What Leph and I are a bit peeved about is the fact that even though there doesn't seem to be any honest argument against changes of the nature we suggest, there is still a vocal protest anytime it's brought up. If you don't want to furball, fine, state your opinion. If you don't think furballing has any place in the arena, fine, state your opinion. Just don't try to justify your opinion by telling me that my own opinion is worthless and based on the fact that I'm imagining things. That's rude and we can get along better than that I think.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
[This message has been edited by eagl (edited 02-18-2001).]
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A seperate arena within the arena is a bad idea.
A quake arena inside of the main arena is a bad idea.
You say the furball island will offer people a choice when things aren't working out for them. A choice when they'd just log off anyways. I'm sure that when a country gets cornered and is down to their one island, people won't say... "Well, its furball island for me until the reset" and just leave those that want to fight the battle to be crushed. And, I'm also sure that these abandoned soles will not feel the need to log off themselves. Nah.. that would never happen.
At least that country would be kicking some serious bellybutton on furball island. Hell.. the other two are fighting the war, but these guys are ready to take on the few that aren't. They could totally dominnate that one little area while their country is demolished. It would be awesome. They could load their aircraft with 100% fuel (because that is ideal for dogfighting) and head 2 minutes to that fight with an enemy plane that most likely only loaded 50% fuel. BUT HELL... AT LEAST THEY CAN LOAD HOWEVER DAMN MUCH FUEL THEY WANT!
Yeah.. these are all just great justifications. "You don't have to tell us to fight the war.. and to prove it.. we want an area that your silly little war can't affect. We'll call it fantasy island." Of course, it will just be another silly little war inside of the silly little war.. but that's a moot point... right?
Go play H2H or furball in the TA on a nice remote island. Its already an option. I just wonder why more people don't do it? Oh yeah.. that's because they'd RATHER BE PLAYIN IN THE CURRENT MA.
AKDejaVu
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LOL EAGL!
That would encourage furballing (well, duh)
I never said this.. and didn't deny it. What I'm saying is furballing already exists. What is the need?
You can already find furballs if you only look hard enough.
Look hard enough? What the hell does that mean? Dude.. have you been in the MA at all since 1.05? Look hard? How about just "look". They are everywhere.
You should take your air combat to another arena.
Ah.. good one. How about "We have air combat.. what is it you are trying to fix?". Just who is getting in the way of you and your definition of air combat right now? Those pesky guys that bombed a fuel dump? Those bad bad bombers? Those flak panzers that ALWAYS pop up at enemy fields? Who?
If you just want to dogfight, "trust me" you'll be happier playing it H2H.
Be happier? Never said that. Be no different.. that's more the point. And you won't skew one side's count by deciding not to participate in their silly little war.
You could furball in the current MA. Of course, some might mistake it for defense, or attacking enemy planes... but let them live in their "pretend" world. You'll know that you are only engaging in pure aircombat in its original unadultarated form.
Now.. why is it that there is a need for this island? Are people not playing the way you want them to in the MA? Would adjusting the way they are allowed to play make it more enjoyable for you? What happens when they don't play the way you want them to on furball island? Will more code and rules need to be added?
This magical island seems to simply be a scapegoat. A place where people can go and do whatever they want in a fighter and pretend that its OK because its on furball island. News flash.. you can do that in the current MA too. I just wonder why more people aren't doing it with you?
AKDejaVu
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Suprise suprise, I've been playing 1.05 as much as I can time permitting, and the most fun I've had was near the center 3 fields. At it's best, there was a 30 plane furball going. Then a bunch of ostwinds showed up and a furball that had been going for over an hour evaporated. I searched for over an hour trying to find a furball with more than 10 people in it, and finally logged without finding anything suitable.
You are also arguing for both sides. In one post, you're afraid that too many people will go to furball island, abandoning the "good fight". Then you claim that obviously nobody wants to furball since it doesn't happen. Well, it does happen occasionally, then the ostwinds show up. Or someone bombs the field without taking it, removing one side from the fight for a while. When that happens, people log out.
8 player H2H for furballing? That's a joke right? That's merely a slightly more complicated dueling setup. 10v10 is more like it, the more the merrier. Again, what are you afraid of?
So far, I've heard ONE reason from you, and that was if people feel they're losing the arena capture war, they'll go have fun furballing and you don't want that to happen. Hmmm, you don't want people to have fun? Come on, there's gotta be a better reason. Don't use H2H as a crutch again, it's simply not suitable for a furball. Don't use the TA, it has a specific purpose that does NOT include general fighting. You have such a big chip on your shoulder against furballing that there MUST be some other reason you don't want it to happen in the same arena as your war.
Quit being exclusionary bro. It's mean.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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Sure.. bring on Furball Central.
I'd like to see a new terrain layout to help isolate it from the strat game, it's fields not considered in the reset count, assetts inestructable; fuel rectricted, no troops, no buffs, etc. Hell; stick an RPS planeset on it's fields, make it even more interesting.
Some possible negatives.. comms! mebbe a bit confusing whit 2 levels of dialouge common, tough but necessary becuse the furball guys might like to join in on strat missions if the layout or makeup is to their liking.. furballing gets boring too.
'Desertions'.. lol I could see hard core strat guys getting indignant when the situation gets bleek and the country is forced into a 2 field box, gettin vulched... and the crews desert fer some peace and quiet in the furball haven.
Of course.. should a country lose it's strat assets; dars etc, I think it only reasonabe that the strat assets like radar outage and fuel shortages affect that countrys furball islanders. Hehehhhhee.. they don't wanna help?? Then fek 'em I say; blind them too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Furball Island may well be a bad idea just from the standpoint of friction amonsgst countrymen in time of dire need.. but that alone is not reason enuff not to TRY it.. hell; mebbe it'll be the a huge success.
A soultion that's inclusionary rather than exclusionary begs for something like Furball Island to be attempted. If the idea is to maximise MA attendance; preserve subcriptions and engender new subscribers, a single arena with terrain to accomodate both strat and instant action flying styles makes a lot of sense.
Question is; will it encourage divisivness in-country? Hate and discontent in the ranks makes strat impossible or unpleasant at best. Will Fighter Island kill strat? Could be... still wanna try it tho. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
"Turn to kill, not to engage."
Commander 'Willie' Driscoll, USNR
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 02-18-2001).]
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Clarification:
I don't want to change the nature of the MA. I don't want an isolated region with 3 indestructable fields located away from the rest of the arena. I don't want any huge changes made.
I was very pleased to find in the current terrain a few fields that encouraged quick combat. In my opinion however, the presence of ground vehicles directly detracts from what HTC appeared to be trying to do, namely encourage people who want a quicker combat fix to fly in that region.
My suggestion is to remove ground vehicles to keep them from ruining perfectly good aircraft vs. aircraft fights. Slightly increase light AAA presence at these fields to discourage vulching. POSSIBLY increase hardness or something to make it tougher to actually capture one of these fields, although that would adversely affect the overall war in that all fields must be capturable and I don't know if it's possible to separate one field in a country and not make it count towards capture.
Some are asking for a dedicated furball island with the situation specifically set up for the express purpose of furballing. I'm sure there's a compromise in there somewhere. Crying foul, doom and gloom, the sky is falling and all that, doesn't seem fair especially since the ideas coming out for a furball island are primarly positive things (wouldn't it be neat if...) rather than negative (this sucks because...)
DejaVu, I'm directing this at you primarly because you are the one directly calling for an arena that excludes people who like to furball. Personally, I like the idea that I could log into an arena, and in-between dogfights, hear a call from a friend for escorts, and help him fly a strike mission. Or see a bomber cruise by and decide to chase him down and try to kill him. I don't want endless furballs to the exclusion of all else, because I find that just as boring as an arena where furballs are very rare. Lets have an arena where we can get both kinds of fun. It's pretty close right now IMHO, but it could be better. Making it better seemed to be the point of lazs post in the first place.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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DejaVu, I'm directing this at you primarly because you are the one directly calling for an arena that excludes people who like to furball.
That's complete and total roadkill eagl. TOTAL roadkill.
Excludes people? Hmmmm. I'm not trying to set up bases that exclude ground vehicles, bommbers and so forth.
Furballs exist right now. I'm not trying to rid the arena of them. Its not my goal.
Just don't want to see what is being proposed here implimented. Its too quake-like.
AKDejaVu
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I don't have a problem with the idea, my biggest beef with the center island at the moment is that the airbases are at sea level while attacking GV's have the advantage of attacking from elevation!
The furball island should look after the GV's as well IMO, or we'll just hear calls for dedicated landwarrior area as well. make all the bases on furball isle unkillable, ack unstrafeable, remove 88's permit all gv's, all aircraft, all ord. Hell givem a 4 grid city right in the middle with some tall buildings to fly/drive around, maybe make the city captureable as a bonus.
A real armored fight at a city type area has yet to be seen in AH i think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
SKurj
Hey Crimson Skies!!! +) well i think it would be a blast.
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Let me ask a question of the nay sayers.
If VW2OL see's the light of day, what happens to the strat guys? Why a Tanker would pay 3 times as much, for a less realistic Tank game is beyond me. Same with bomber fans, and eventually Navy fans. The only thing I've seen over there that is less promising for AH fans, is the early war planeset. I think listening to the furballers might be good sense.
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DejaVu, I'm directing this at you primarly because you are the one directly calling for an arena that excludes people who like to furball.
I have to agree with Dejavu here.... roadkill eagl. It is in fact the advocates of the furball island who are being exclusionary. YOU want to exclude buff drivers, vehicle drivers and anyone who wants to do more than mindlessly furball at 5k feet!
And yet at the same time you want to make sure that your endless furballing earns fighter perk points, right? Lazs, the great opponent of the perk system, wants an island where you cannot earn bomber, attack or vehicle perks, but you can sure still earn fighter perks. Well duh! If bombers and vehicles are disabled.. how the hell would you earn bomber or vehicle perks in the first place? If structures are indestructible, how would you earn attack perks?
Over the past months we've heard these great supporters of furball argue against an HA, on the grounds that it is 'divisive' for the community.
HELLO! WTF do you think a furball island is? If you're a rook and down to your last couple of fields, BH's are down and you absolutely suck in a fighter... well log off! Don't even THINK of coming to the centre island because you are not welcome there!
And of course, if your interests lie more on the 'sim' rather than 'game' side of the spectrum .. well you're out of luck entirely!
Easymo... you've also got a really good point there. What DOES happen if WW2OL succeeds? Will even fighter drivers be prepared to pay 3 times as much for a late-war/fantasy planeset with BFGs?
Will the future of AH become a kind of MMOG 'Crimson Skies'? We've already got some aspects of the flight model for it .. perhaps we could just go the whole hog and give every aircraft the turning performance of a Ki43, the acceleration and climb of a 109G-10, and the guns of the Chog with unlimited ammo. Maybe have armour powerups hanging at 5k over the airfields?
The 'community' of flight 'gamers/simmers' probably cannot support 5 MMOG flight sims, FA, AW, WB, AH and WW2OL. AH presently sits about 'middle of the road' with respect to accuracy and authenticity. Maybe they should just go to the far end of the spectrum to guarantee their market?
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 02-19-2001).]
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I dont follow the logic. Late war planes DID have BFG, inspite of what they might say at AGW.
And if they got rid of the auto trim buttons, that would take care of most of the bomber fan problem.
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I have to agree with Dejavu here.... roadkill eagl. It is in fact the advocates of the furball island who are being exclusionary. YOU want to exclude buff drivers, vehicle drivers and anyone who wants to do more than mindlessly furball at 5k feet!
The strat system excludes players who want to find a quick fight by destroying infrastructure in the game. Even so, the only vehicle looking to be excluded is the Osty, and even that could be taken care of by simply only allowing them to spawn at the airfields.
Don't bring the HA into this. I would love to see an HA. There is no "argument" against it, the simple fact is that HTC won't even consider doing it until there are a great deal more players online.
HELLO! WTF do you think a furball island is? If you're a rook and down to your last couple of fields, BH's are down and you absolutely suck in a fighter... well log off! Don't even THINK of coming to the centre island because you are not welcome there!
Oh, so because we can't shelter buff drivers from the strat system, we shouldn't try to shelter anyone else? At least if there was a furball island, there would be SOME choice other than to log off. In fact you made my point pretty well. In the situation you mention, the Buff pilot has to log off or fly fighters anyway... that's no different from what we have now. My point is that with furball island, at least the option to go launch a fighter would exist, and folks would have SOME alternative to logging off. It may not be reasonable to fly a buff, but at least you can do something. I fail to see how offering a fighter pilot in the same position a chance to do something other than log off is so injurious to the rest of the arena.
The point is, the situations I outlined above cause people to log off. Anybody disputing that? Now, how can we avoid that? I think something like this could have the desired effect. I also don't see how it would harm the rest of the arena.
I must admit I'm surprised at the objections. Hangtime made some good points, but I'm still waiting to hear why this would be such a bad thing.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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Some of you may remember AWDOS's PAC Arena where the atoll located in the middle of the arena was where some of the best fighting occured.
Strat was still present for those who wished to muster sorties deep into enemy territory, while those who wished for more of a pure fighter vs. fighter engagement, hunted the atoll area.
HTC seems to prefer us to fight the total fight, both strat and fighter...the ranking system dictates that those who fly and participate in everything will benefit. I believe if they preferred this fighter island concept, we would already have it.
I personally enjoyed the old AWDOS PAC arena...even the ETO arena had a center area where many could find that fighter vs. fighter enviroment.
We obviously, as a community, do not share the same likes and dislikes...hopefully the new arena forthcoming will meet everyones needs to a greater extent.
Ice
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When someone in my countrymen call for a strike on a neighboring field on 'Furball Island'...I basically tell them to go ahead and do it, but those who are 'tactically' thinking will not do so...that island is good for one thing, furballing and tanking, and it does have its purpose here, the map has plenty of strat for those who want it, and has 'Furball Island' for those who want something fast and furious...personally, I like both places, depending on my mood.
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(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/Mag33-Blank-Sig-4.gif)
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
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(http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net5/uzi.gif)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Yeah, I remember the Atoll in AWDOS -- a near constant furball. In fact, there were plenty of times when I would help the enemy capture one of the fields so everyone could jump in the fight.
It was lots of fun there, can't see why it wouldn't be in AH.
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Ok, so far...
The people who actually care about furballs feel the new strat focus is ruining their time on AH. The strat guys are removing resources or outright capturing any field that is usefull to us. This is not an "illusion".
The game is less fun for squads that are not "mission" oriented. The squad can no longer engage as a squad because they are spred all over the map. In order to fly together they have to wait in the tower untill all squaddies are ded or RTB. This is not our imagination.
The only real arguement against furball island is a non arguement... People will not foolishly defend (get vulched at) the last few fields. Waaaa??? Most don't now... Why should they? At worst... The "war" would be over when it was nothing but vultch fields left. What would be wrong with that? I mean, who can take off in a bomber or C47 from one of those fields anyway?
Different coms? Why? NP. Fighter perks only? What's the problem? That's all most of the furballers ever earn anyway and shouldn't they get fighter perks for doing fighter work? Personally I am going to sell mine on ebay anyway to some perkjerk. If they are weasel enough to fly one they are weasel enough to buy one i say.
The real reason is still FEAR... The strat weenies have finally forced the arena into what they want. They don't care if anyone is having fun so long as they get their way. In fact.... They violently oppose any CHOICE.. They fear that if not forced... People will not play with em... just like when they were kids. I'm sure all reading the protests can see this.
Furball island is about choice for styles. No style is left out or discouraged. There really is choice not an illussion of one. It affects the strat game not a whit and "furballers" or "strat" is not an absolute.... It is not either or.... some people furball and strat.. they could jump back and forth seamlessly as one or the other gets stale...
Furball island does not seek to "force" people to furball. It only offers a fair (for everyone) choice.
lazs
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I used to be one of the "anti-furball" crowd...now I am more of the "let-em-do-what-they-want" crowd. I am more prone to jumping into fighting and furballing when the feeling comes over me than I was before. I still enjoy the strat game also. The only thing about this "Furball Island" thing that I am hearing that I dont like is the bases being undamageable. What happens when a country is down to a few bases and the reset is imminent? Since furball island is undamageable, what will stop everyone from just loading up with full fuel tanks regardless of what situation their "country" is in and flying anywhere on the map? Maybe I am not seeing the whole picture of furball island clearly, but I dont see why they need a separate undestructable area to furball in. I have never had a problem finding a furballin a short amount of time when I want one in.
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(scolding mode on)
I am noticing that certain people seem obsessed with QUAKE:
To which I ask--have you ever actually played a FPS game? Sure doesn't seem like it by your collective attitudes. Several of you show a total lack of respect for something you don't appear to understand in the slightest.
If you think Quake, or Unreal Tournament, or CounterStrike is "easy" or "stupid", you're sadly mistaken. You'd get your bellybutton whipped in 5 seconds in those games. If you think it takes no teamwork or planning to win a CTF match, then you've never played one. IMO CounterStrike or even UT typically involves MUCH MUCH MORE teamwork then is EVER present in AH. And I'm serious. Just try CS, and try to take out a half dozen terrorists with no backup...you WILL be killed very fast. Unlike in AH, you CAN'T run away or get an "alt advantage" to stack the cards in your favor.
And, their community isn't "dumb" because they have some "kewl d00dz" in it--that's just the norm of their community, much as terms like augering and furballing are norms of ours. Believe me, a lot of THEM think us flight sim people are a bunch of "stuck up jerks"--and with the attitude some of you display, I can see why.
The FPS communities are about as mature as THIS one (which really isn't very mature...ALL online communities are filled with behavior which would be unnacceptable in "real life").
Lastly, you shouldn't be afraid of "Air Quake". If you ARE afraid of this concept, then you should leave AH RIGHT NOW, because that is what we have. No penalty for dying, no forced teamwork, everyone has access to the same equipment, team-based, etc. Aces High is, essentially, a flying QUAKE with WW2-era airplanes.
I don't really give a crap whether AH ever has a "FighterTown" island or not. I DO think it is a good idea that would add to the game for people who like dogfighting--not upping from porked bases to try to fight people who only want to grab land, at any cost (meaning rampant ganging, vulching, base porking, etc). It WOULD NOT detract from the game experience of those who LIKE the "war", as past experiences show. Why are you people so rabidly opposed to something that WOULD NOT have any affect on you? Are you afraid someone doesn't play the game for the same reasons you do? Afraid you'll have less people to vulch?
FT is a good idea, which is why I support it--even though I'd hardly ever fly there (I AM a "strat dweeb" in that I like to fight over contested targets--but I also know not everyone does).
But what gets under my skin is when certain people make derogatory comments about the ENTIRE COMMUNITY of a type of game they CLEARLY don't understand. I find it ironic, because AH already is (and always was) the type of game they claim to not want. I find it equally annoying that these SAME people have utterly no respect for anyone who doesn't want to play the game how THEY want it to be played.
Try out other games; get other people's perspective; be more open-minded. It won't hurt you.
(scolding mode off)
Sorry for subjecting EVERYONE to this longish post which is mostly OT.
I just can't stand the attitude of a vocal few.
Finally, as noted before--someone should MAKE a terain in the edito which would better support what was proposed.
J_A_B
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Sling,
The point is, when your country is getting slammed, has no radar, and forward fields are missing either fuel or the FH's are down, what do you do? Many folks just log out. The reason to make a few fields "indestructible" is so that there will always be a place to take off from near a fight. The additional benefit would be that there would always be one pretty small area where there was one field from each country in close proximity. This leads to great furball action, just the place for those with limited time to find a quick fight.
What will stop folks from loading up with full fuel and travelling anywhere on the map? Nothing but the time it would take to get across the map. That's kind of the point. Right now if a country is down to just a few bases and a reset is imminent what is the situation? The strat system allows the other countries to severely limit my ability to fly a plane in that situation. The result is that people just log out. With three fields in the middle, hopefully quite far from "the mainland", I don't think folks would log out. Many would just go furball on the island for a while until the FH's and fuel come back, or until the reset happens. Some would do whatever to defend their remaining fields and such... more power too them. However, the result of a sheltered furball island is that, IMHO, people wouldn't be as likely to log out. In addition, as long as the distance was great enough, the furball island would not likely ever be a factor in the final minutes before a reset.
Ideally, I'd like to see one side be able to work the strat system and win the war, but without doing it by encouraging most of the other side to log out. As I see it now, most resets are achieved simply because people will log out when they are getting beaten down and are limited by fuel and hangar closures. I think if there was a refuge like furball island available, the Strat game could still be played and the war won, but without causing most of the losing side to log out in the process. In addition, because there would be more of the losing side staying online, there would be a much greater likelihood that that side would organize some kind of defense, and really put up a fight. IMHO.
Maybe "furball island" is the wrong term. How about "Haven" or "shelter island"?
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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I find it equally annoying that these SAME people have utterly no respect for anyone who doesn't want to play the game how THEY want it to be played.
You listening lazs?
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Furball island does not seek to "force" people to furball. It only offers a fair (for everyone) choice.
And what is fair about it? Or.. let me rephrase that... what is more fair about it?
What does fair have to do with this island in any way shape or form?
AKDejaVu
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Although I think "fair" is the wrong term (Never give a sucker an even break I say! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) here is my take:
The players that like to play the strat game can remove the option for others to play their way, or at least make it much more difficult. Those focussed on air to air combat don't limit the abilities of the strat players at all. A haven such as proposed would allow the strat system to work as normal, while making it impossible for the strat system to completely limit those players who just want to do some A2A fighting.
I guess you could call that more "fair", if by fair you mean that the options exist for both types of player to play how they choose at any and all times. As it is, that's simply not the case. A bunch of strat players on a rampage can make it much more difficult to simply do some A2A combat, enough so that many just log out.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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Lephturn, a bunch of people on furball island will have the same effect.
If one side has ten people there and another has two.. how much fun is it going to be for the two? If one side is flying nothing but N1Ks, are we going to hear tons of whines here about it the next day... followed by the "so I just logged off, and I'm not coming back until its fixed, or tomorrow.. wichever comes first!"
If something like this is implimented with the sole purpose of furballing, it will be followed by endless threads on how to make it more fair for everyone. Eliminating CHogs and N1Ks will be the first step. Moving on to alt monkey runstangs, spitdweebs, LW dweebs, ack diving, vulching, HOing and so forth. Eventually it will have to be nothing but C.202's there with an invisible nose shield to make everything fair and eliminate the incessant whining.
AKDejaVu
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AK-
In any furball situation I have been in I, and others I have noted, have been willing to switch sides to even things up. A true furballer is in it for the fight, not the victory, or points, or anything other than the sheer fun of killing things. You also don't typically hear the same level of whining as you do in the average arena, because there are no illusions about why people are there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Kieren.. this is the in MA... side switching can only occur once every 12 hours.
AKDejaVu
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After arguing this before with Lephturn and I agreed to give some ideas well I have come to the conclusion that if it happens it's not going to be good either way.
One side is down to 2 fields, they just fly on furball island, force an easy reset. Or how about this one: only 40 ppl online, all but 3 guys are flying there. Those 3 guys are on the same side. So when everyone logs in around peak hours, one side has 90% of the fields, leaving the other two countries to 3 or 4 a piece.
Furballs can be found everywhere. There is no current justification for a "FighterTown" or a "Furball Island" other than "Why should I have to fly 10 minutes to find a fight when I can fly 3 minutes?"
If that's your justification, and the majority of AH players vote "yes" to this you mine as well just create ONLY a central island with 3 fields on it. That's all you're going to need in the end, it's no fun fighting a war looking for a fight when only 10 or 15 guys from all 3 countries are flying on the map. The rest will be concentrated on that small central island.
I'm not saying "fly my way", but what I am saying is that furballs are all over. Aren't hard to find at all, if they are for you then you just aren't looking at all.
-SW
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Oops, forgot about that 12 hour reset! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
FWIW, I haven't had a hard time finding fights very often. There have however been times (about once a week) where the time I am on is greeted with the side I am on being down to 3 fields, all capped heavily or with dead hangars. That means switch sides, log out or get vultched mercilessly. This is no big deal unless the vultching side has no interest in ending the war, using the situation to endlessly bombard resources and rack up points on the vultches- the definite downside to perk points. Losing side can be a target, in which case the situation never changes, log out or wait in the tower (big fun), or switch sides and have the people yell at you. All wonderful options! This is my one and only complaint about strat players.
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IF most people would end up flying on that "FT" island, as you suspect, then it can safely be assumed that such an island is desired by a majority of the population.
However, I do not think that would be the case. In AW, it almost never disrupted gameplay and, once people got used to its being there, was accepted and liked by almost everyone--even those of us who didn't fly there.
I still think someone who really wants this should make an arena map with this featue built-in. The terrrain editor is available--use it.
J_A_B
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J_A_B,
The island is already in the current arena, it just needs a little mod work done by HTC. Beef up the fields and ditch the vehicles, and presto instant fighter town.
Disabling bombers would be nice too, but not necessary IMHO. The terrain is already neat there too, but it's sorta aimed at vehicle fighting I think and the volcano isn't placed right for 'cano fights. These last 2 things are just details, icing on the cake as it were.
The hard part of course would be re-creating the current island as it is to make sure that people who like the cool vehicle battles present on that island can still have THEIR custom playing field. The ostwind just makes furballs incompatible with vehicle battles, thats all.
I don't want to take anything away from the ostwind drivers either, except for their ability to interfere with pure Air to Air combat in one little part of the arena. It's like bringing a baseball bat to a soccer match. Everyone's happy kicking the ball around until someone who can't play soccer shows up and starts swinging his bat at people. Next thing you know, the soccer game is over and everyone's pissed. Except for the guy with the bat of course, 'cause he "won" by disrupting a perfectly good soccer match. It's easy to fix this, all it needs is a few minor terrain alterations. I hope HTC agrees AND has the time to do something about it, but I'm not holding my breath. They've got plenty on their plate already.
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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How can you say it's desired by the majority J_A_B? Just because the majority is on it or is it because that's where the huge radar bars are?
It's a well known fact people follow people. You can't very well have a fight if there's no one to fight can you?
Therefore, when the war starts going south for a single country, most of that country might just go to that furball island to escape getting shot down and to allow the reset to occur. I mean why bother defending a field when you can just hop somewhere else that can never be destroyed and dogfight?
So, war or strat isn't your thing. You just want to furball. That's fine, you can find furballs all over the MA. I never have a problem finding them. The fact of the matter is, it's laziness. No one wants to fly 10 or 15 minutes to find the furball, they just want to take off from an undestructable field and get right into the fight.
Hey, I know where you can do that without HTC modifying or taking anything away from the MA... H2H.
You create a furball island, it's not a simple matter of the majority wants it. The majority is going to go where the majority can find some human competition.
War goes south for one side, they hop to furball island and a chain of events sets in.
Using AW as a setting stone won't work because who knows that the people in AH are anything like the people in AW?
-SW
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I am guessing that the people in AW and the people in AH will act the same because a great many of these people ARE the same--literally. AH is, for the most part, made of of ex AW'ers and ex WB'ers....
Moving on....
You are afraid that your favorite aspect of the game--the strat--might be damaged by the presence of a "FighterTown" island. That is a valid concern, which I will attempt to address here. Several other people also don't appear to understand WHY some people want a "FT" island, which I will also attempt to address.
Currently, those who care about strat try to defend their country, even if it means getting vulched or ganged or whatnot....they are dedicated to the betterment of their country. Trying to take the last couple of fields from a handful of dedicated defenders can be one of the toughest parts of the game.
However, most of the "furballer" types already don't participate in these vulchfests if they're on the losing side. Instead, they defect or simply log off. (That, or get PO'ed at not having a decent base to fly from and start yelling on CH 1.) This is why I say a "FT" wouldn't damage the strat--those who hate strat already don't take part in it if they can at all avoid it.
You also mentioned that people go where people are. Most the time, when there's 100+ people in the arena, this won't be an issue, because there's plenty of action to go around. Sometimes, when there's maybe 20 people online, this MIGHT be a minor issue...so let's take a closer look.
If there's hardly anyone on, basically the arena is mostly empty. Usually the few people on will do one of two things: 1), milkrun for points/base capture, or 2), find the closest enemy and try to find some fights. A FT island wouldn't change that--those who want to capture land will still do so, and those interested in stopping them will still do so, too. Those who only want to fight A2A, and don't give a damn about land, will have a much easier time doing just that--not end up stuck flying around 20 minutes for nothing because the enemies went somewhere else before he got there. So Everybody wins.
Moving on to the WHY....
A good point that can be made, is that the only difference between AH and, say , MS flight simulator, is that AH has combat in it. A lot of people--the "furballers"--play for the combat, NOT to spend 3/4 of their online time essentially playing a civilian flightsim, with a few battles in-between, while trying to "win a war".
They feel AH is about flying and fighting, NOT world domination. Most furballers, if interested in land capture, will play a dedicated wargame...when they're on AH they just want to have great A2A combat (and AH is definately one the best sims for A2A combat) They don't want "AOE with planes", and don't see the need to wait 20 minutes for a 1 minute fight.
They aren't asking for much....just a few un-damageable and uncapturable bases placed close together, to foster a greater amount of A2A fighting per hour spent online. Nobody wants stupid features, like mid-air respawning or unlimited ammo....just less "dead time" between fights, and no proked base to worry about. It isn't the "strat" aspect that turns off most "furballers"....rather, it's the 20 minute wait between fights. OR, the lack of non-porked and non-CAPped bases to fly from if your country is being beat. "FT" would solve BOTH those problems for those whom love A2A combat above all else.
It would have precisely ZERO negative impact on everyone in the arena (except for the dedicated vulchers hehehehe)
I hope this helps.
I find it ironic how I am becomming the most vocal advocate of having a FighterTown, and I wouldn't even fly there much (I also prefer the strat aspect). I just know from my own past experience, that it's a good idea with no drawback, if done properly.
Give it some thought.
J_A_B
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How about marking the 6 'hotspots' of fighter activity - knights have a bish and rook hotspot marked, bish have a knight and rook hotspot marked.... etc.
Nothing changes but the map display that way, also its pretty much info that would be available in real life anyway... just maybe that no-one is saying so on the radio or using sector comms.
Just two of the sector squares red/purple boxed would do.
Leave the bombers out of the equation though so the sneaky strats dont get messed up.
There is a need for it to learn to fight these planes if you've never really been into such 'realism' and with so many planes available. Its damn hard to find out when your wings fall off after every 15 minute flight to a visual on an enemy... blam, start again.
£0.02p, and i love Quake too.
Have a smilie... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think a great comprimise would be to disable osties & ordinance on the center island. Great plane battles & great tank battles could co-exist.
I can't figure out what everyone's getting so upset about. Try it and see what happens. I think the current MA is great, but when I feel the furballing mood coming on, I head strait for the middle isle.
SOB
BTW...Jekyll, the more posts I read from you the more I wonder...Why do you even play AH? You really seem to dislike it. (this has nothing to do with the furball island topic...you just always seem to have a great distain for what is currently happening or for what is coming in AH)
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Ok, the reason we can't have a island dedicated to melees is.... Because people will go there instead of putting up with being vultched or loggintg like real men.
Look... furballers don't really care about bases except for distance and most dedicated furballers know that the best fights don't happen at the bases but BETWEEN em. If there is a 1-3 min flight to an area between the oppossing fields then the fight is concentrated. If there is a 5 min flight then the fight is spred out and there is no cohesive squad action or large furs.
We don't really care much if we make it to the enemy base... We don't even cary bombs... We just want em indestructable so that some strat potato killjoy with a craving for attention doesn't lone suicide bomb it to worthlesness and ruin everyones fun.
As lep said, the strat potatos can ruin the game for the furballers. The furballers are not asking to ruin anyones fun, just to have a place in the game that can't be ruined. That is what is "fair" about furball island.
and jekyl... well, he's just an unhappy guy... probly one of those that looks at the map and goes all apopleptic when he sees people bunching up and having the "f" word... so he bombs the fighter hanger. It's the Amish thing to do.
lazs
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Eagl:I don't want to take anything away from the ostwind drivers either, except for their ability to interfere with pure Air to Air combat in one little part of the arena. It's like bringing a baseball bat to a soccer match. Everyone's happy kicking the ball around until someone who can't play soccer shows up and starts swinging his bat at people. Next thing you know, the soccer game is over and everyone's pissed. Except
for the guy with the bat of course, 'cause he "won" by disrupting a perfectly good soccer match.
This works the other way around too, as in the center island, is a great tanking plain where great tank fights take place, it only takes a few CHOGS or bomb-laiden P38's to ruin the fun...
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Ok, the reason we can't have a island dedicated to melees is.... Because people will go there instead of putting up with being vultched or loggintg like real men.
Can't? Hmmm... disagree with an idea and it becomes "can't have it". As for the idea... you are running under one basic falacy. Somehow the same people that are in the same arena will behave completely diferent on this magical island. Nobody will hang out with a distinct advantage waiting for someone to exit their ack unbrella. Nobody will run for ack. Nobody will gang-bang on the island. Somehow it is a safehouse against all this behaviour. You are dillusional.
I love the use of the term "We" when you talk about furballs. As in "we" vs "them". I think you'll find your oppinion of what furball island should be is yours and yours alone. People will agree with it in some ways, but not in others. Some people will disagree with it in enough ways to feel it a bad idea. That's why it is discussed.
You are not representative of furballers everywhere. You are not their voice. You are not "we".
AKDejaVu
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I think a great comprimise would be to disable osties & ordinance on the center island. Great plane battles & great tank battles could co-exist.
If you do this, you've just created 3 incredibly captured large fields. No osties to defend them. The nearest feilds to most of the center island fields are not on the center island.
The question then becomes what do you have to do to ensure this islands will be the sanctuary that is being requested? Do you make hardened targets? Do you make these bases not count towards the war?
The thing that really gets me here, is that most of the things suggested like closer bases and no 88's means that the fights are going to occur very close to or in the ack. No 88's means that people can hang out over enemy bases. Close bases means ack cover is always nearby.
It seems what people need is a center island with no vehicle fields in between. Elevated bases that are Farther away, and heavily armed. Osties capable of launching to defend them... even more ack and 88's than they currently have to STRONGLY discourage capture. Multiple VH's instead of one. If these precautions aren't taken.. there is nothing to prevent capture.
One thing is for sure... no matter what you do it will be manipulated to the extreme. A target rich environment is being created for those that really enjoy pushing the rules of the game. The rewards for doing so will be great.
AKDejaVu
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akdeja... you make no sense to me. I had allready stated that the island have unmcapturable and unclosable fields. I have allready stated that it does not count toward the (cough) "winning" of the war. I have never even seen the "winning" of a war in AH and certainly would not hang out at the last few resource diminished fields to be vulched by a bunch of timid strat potatos in any case.
You claim that people will flee or hide into the acks on furball island... so what? if they want to fight they will come out. Even if it is a disaster most of the time and not used.... So what? WHAT DOES IT HURT? HOW DOES IT HURT YOU OR YOUR ILK? You can just ignore it either way can't u?
You claim that it will be a target rich environment that people will "game".. How so? They will only earn fighter perkies... They will have to win and survive to get em and fighter perks are small and the least easy to "game" of all the idiotic perk points we can (cough) "earn"... Besides... It's the furballers who are least likely to game a game anyway. Unlike you...They simply don't care.
furballers don't want to ruin or even affect your fun... Unfortunately... the reverse is not true. The perk jerks and strat potatos are constantly looking for a good fight to ruin. Once they've ruined the fight they set out to ruin any chance for a fight at any surrounding fields. Why do they do that?
Another point you bring to the table is that furballers will be in conflict over what constitutes a good furball island and flood this board with whining over the implementation.... |This complaint seems odd from a group that otherwise has total fawning faith in the powers that be to devise systems... They can make complex strat that pleases people but can't come up with something as simple as a workable furball island? You toady on up to the idiotic, unfair, unneccessary and complex "perk" system but find furball island to controversial? LOL
lazs
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Ok... I admit I don't see what people get out of the strat game or earning idiotic perk points. I do know that some do and that it's not right to ruin their game... This (copied from another post) is what i get out of the game... Why do you want to ruin it for me?
look... the reason perkies and strat polorize is that I, and maybe kieren and one or two others like to
get into a fight. A fun fight with a lot of action and a lot of planes around. These were called "melees" in
the war and were quite common. They are the things most people enjoy reading about the most... for
us, they stretch our SA and acm and give us the rush that waiting in the tower or planning or whatever
doesn't
How strat kills this is that it causes resources to die and field to be further apart... My squad likes big
melees with a lot of squaddies involved... With the fields spread out and resources ded the flights to a
"maybe a fight and maybe not" are long and worse..... Our squad is stretched out over the entire area. If
we want to see more than 1 or 2 squaddies, or see em in more than passing... We have to wait in the
tower till all are ded or RTB.
With close fields many are up in the air at the same time without "down" time that the guys I know
hate.
"Spits on you" "watch the hog!" "drag him left" "in on the 47" "bring em down" "coming back toward
you" "shit got my engine" "i'm ded" "out ammo" "get em off me!" "draggin em up".... Rapid fire out of
the Roger wilco with planes and tracers everywhere... Eyes burning cause ya forgot to blink for too
long....
And you want me to trade that for ... "so how is the family"... while waiting in the tower to club some
defensless field into submission? rather log. bet more than a couple who never even read this board
agree too.
lazs
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I had allready stated that the island have unmcapturable and unclosable fields. I have allready stated that it does not count toward the (cough) "winning" of the war.
You write as if you are the only one representing the idea. Once again.. you are not "we". Many people have stated many things.
It's the furballers who are least likely to game a game anyway. Unlike you...They simply don't care.
Erm.. what? I do like the class distinction here Lazs. The furballers are somehow more magically gifted in gameplay fairness? I don't suppose any furballers have ever vulched a base before. Nor have they attacked with numbers from a distinct advantage any other aircraft. They are all about fairness. Its EVERYONE else that causes the problems.
The perk jerks and strat potatos are constantly looking for a good fight to ruin. Once they've ruined the fight they set out to ruin any chance for a fight at any surrounding fields. Why do they do that?
Nice labels. So.. how does it work now. There are furballers who are noble and just want to fight? And everyone else is a "perk jerk" or a "strat potato"? Jeez lazs.. you need to stop labeling anyone that might argue against your belief before it even happens.
Here's a thought that you might want to try to cram into that pea brain of yours: Perk Jerks will be at furball island too. You may even be one of them.
Another point you bring to the table is that furballers will be in conflict over what constitutes a good furball island and flood this board with whining over the implementation....
I guess not as long as they appoint you their leader?
This complaint seems odd from a group that otherwise has total fawning faith in the powers that be to devise systems...
I'm sorry. What group is it that I have claimed to be representing again? How many times have I used "we" when presenting MY arguments?
They can make complex strat that pleases people but can't come up with something as simple as a workable furball island?
Now.. who is they now? Is this different from we and them? So, no I have to track we, them and they.
If by they you are refering to HTC... I will say this:
I would rather see efforts dedicated to making more planes and improving aspects of the game such as rivers. The idea of dedicating resources to duplicate something that is already possible in this game seems silly. If you can't find a furball right now, you aren't looking at all.
You toady on up to the idiotic, unfair, unneccessary and complex "perk" system but find furball island to controversial?
Ok.. so you means they, them or we now? Or does it mean me? I'm having trouble tracking you, me, we, they and them right now.
If you mean me... I'd really like you to find where I have "toadied on up to the idiotic, unfair, unneccessary and complex "perk" system". Oh that's right... anyone that disagrees with you on one issue must disagree with you on all issues. Its how you stereotype into we, them and they.
AKDejaVu
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zeee plane! zee plane! ze...tat! tat! tat! tat!.....arghhhhhhh
- lasz fantasy island
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AKDejaVu said:
As for the idea... you are running under one basic falacy. Somehow the same people that are in the same arena will behave completely diferent on this magical island. Nobody will hang out with a distinct advantage waiting for someone to exit their ack unbrella. Nobody will run for ack. Nobody will gang-bang on the island. Somehow it is a safehouse against all this behaviour. You are dillusional.
I don't know where you get this from, but you keep bringing it up. I don't expect people to act ANY different. I don't want them too, why would I?
The ONLY reason to do this is to create a place that shelters the fighers from the STRAT system... not from each other, or ack, or air combat in general. Just a field where the strat can't close the FH, remove the fuel, and take out the acks. That's it. Simple. I don't expect anything to change other than that. It's just a place I can ALWAYS launch my fighter from, that's all. The additional benefit is that if you place these three fields fairly close together, it will tend to be a good spot to find a quick fight.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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The only difference between this idea and playing H2H is about 40 planes, disrupting the current MA's design of game play and a lot more warping.
You enjoy that there furball island, warps and all. Oh did I mention framerate?
That and you will take away from the rest of the current arena by adding this island. Why bother flying from a different field? You can take off from a permanent sheltered field without a care in the world. You can climb to 8K without worrying about losing your ack. You duck out, kill something, duck back into the ack. Repeat as neccessary.
Lets just dumb down the flight models, make fields impossible to capture and call it the Air Combat Arena... oh wait WB has one of those for 10$/month.
-SW
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So you want to exclude certain players from your own little area of the map? ROFL. Waahhhh my hangar got bombed, boohooo, some Osty shot me when I was dogfighting 500ft off the ground. No one is forcing anyone to fly at 1k looking for a fight, and no one is forcing you to fly from a field that has been bombed. However, by limiting an area of the map to fighters only and making buildings indestructible, you are restricting the choices of others.
I have to agree with Deja here, you can always find a furball if you look. If it's not what you like, you can always find one in a H2H game. But, I have never logged on and not seen at least one furball between airfields, and I most definitely play in off-peak hours.
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well ak... I do say I and we... I know of at least a block of a dozen or so that would not object to the word "we" as representing them. "They" was quite clear in the context it was used as was "you" You on the other hand, (you, meaning akdeja) use the absolute term "nobody" What exactly does "nobody" mean to you? It appears that you believe that you can look into the minds of every single person in AH and predict, with certainty, their actions.
All of your points are lame... There is no way that a furball island will hurt your game except..... it may draw people away from the more boring game you embrace.
You use "target rich environment" like it is something to loath! LOL!!! I don't think that a quick poll would show that you have much of a case in thinking that even half of the people in AH would prefer less target rich.... placing my money on people prefering a target rich environment any day over sitting in the tower or flying formation or clubbing some undefended field into submission to glean a few perkies.
lazs
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
If you do this, you've just created 3 incredibly captured large fields. No osties to defend them. The nearest feilds to most of the center island fields are not on the center island.
The question then becomes what do you have to do to ensure this islands will be the sanctuary that is being requested? Do you make hardened targets? Do you make these bases not count towards the war?
The thing that really gets me here, is that most of the things suggested like closer bases and no 88's means that the fights are going to occur very close to or in the ack. No 88's means that people can hang out over enemy bases. Close bases means ack cover is always nearby.
It seems what people need is a center island with no vehicle fields in between. Elevated bases that are Farther away, and heavily armed. Osties capable of launching to defend them... even more ack and 88's than they currently have to STRONGLY discourage capture. Multiple VH's instead of one. If these precautions aren't taken.. there is nothing to prevent capture.
One thing is for sure... no matter what you do it will be manipulated to the extreme. A target rich environment is being created for those that really enjoy pushing the rules of the game. The rewards for doing so will be great.
AKDejaVu
So, how about osties available to pop up from VHs only? My view on this whole thing is that the island is perfect for furballing now...but I can completely understand how a few osties popping up below a furball can ruin it. I don't agree that anything should be hardened or that the 88s should be removed. I think the fields should be the same as any other field on the map and capturable as well. I think making them invincible would separate them too much from the rest of the arena and that's a bad idea, IMO, even if it means your country will be excluded from the island some of the time.
That's all I'll add...this is getting way too complicated (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think I'll just go fly now!
SOB
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"Furball Island" sounds great to me. It should make the game more attractive for some players and I can't really see how it will hinder the guys who enjoy strat at all. I expect the most noticeable effect will be an increase in arena attendance as the attention-deficit-disorder crowd (like myself) will tend to log off less. A more populous arena is better for everyone, regardless of their preferred flying style.
Hooligan
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Lazs...you old dog! I like it! All the newbies, uninformed, tired of strat. They can all be directed and launched from centerfield without repercussions to the serious. They can have a non-discript 1 on 1's without detriment to the serious "win-O-war", "don't have a life", "perkpoint gathering dweebs", and rather salamanderish at times, fellow AHers! All this, and no harm done to the rest of the virtual world as we know it.
Sorry Lazs, considering game play...don't know where this one fits?
wizzer
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Lazs, I like your idea too. A lot of times I don't have the time to climb for 10 minutes to find a fight just to run into a whole squadron of enemies. Some people might have the luxury of time to find the perfect perch from which to deal out death, but sometimes i just wanna go up for a quick scrap, and either no one is in H2H or no one is in the TA. This way, a "quick fight" with MA settings would always be available.
CJ
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The funniest thing about all this is that the people who don't like it are the ones who want to pick it to death and get all the "rules", scoring and strat of it straight while the people who would like such an idea could care less about intricate scoring and rules... They just want some action.
The people whow say we don't need it say that we are having fun with the system as is and that if we hate organization so much then perhaps we should organize a furball? And even more amusing... the people who would most like the idea and use it (wizzers newbies and don't give a toejam's) will never bother to read anything on this board ... If they even know it exists.
The learning curve is steep. we have trouble attracting and keeping new people as it is... give us less choice and a steeper curve for the entire game and you get less people. As Hooligan says.. the idea will attract more people and keep old ones from logging.. More people is allways better.
lazs
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Gentleman,
I have refrained from commenting until now, because I realize the use of the term "Amish" was meant in jest...believe it or not some of us do have a sense of humour.
However, if you are looking for a term which represents a group of people that dislikes fun, I would suggest another. We do indeed enjoy fun as much as any of you.
Again, I don't want to spoil the fun...just hoping to clarify things a little.
See you up!!
Julius
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
"Furball Island" sounds great to me. It should make the game more attractive for some players and I can't really see how it will hinder the guys who enjoy strat at all. I expect the most noticeable effect will be an increase in arena attendance as the attention-deficit-disorder crowd (like myself) will tend to log off less. A more populous arena is better for everyone, regardless of their preferred flying style.
Hooligan
I think the above statement sums it up nicely (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SKurj
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It splits the arena. You are either in one part or the other. Not both. This is better than seperate arenas in what way?
Effectively, you are reducing the numbers in one portion of the arena.
AKDejaVu
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Sounds like a good idea to me. Raise the 3 Airbases there to 5k. Then make them invincible ,really freakin' hard or give them killer ack to 30k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) The choice of aircraft would be limited to fighters only. Leave the 3 vehicle bases right where they are for ground combat. They did this in AW3 right before they screwed the game up royally last February, and it was nearly always full!!
Not everyone is gonna go for this but there are many of us judging from all the posts that would like to see it. Question is...are there enough of us who want it to over-throw the nay-sayers who don't? What say we let the posts here decide?
What do you think?
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Well Lazs...you got part of it right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
wizzer
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Originally posted by wizzer:
Well Lazs...you got part of it right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
wizzer
PS. I think I'm offended
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this is a big thread! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-=///Octavius\=-
VMF-323 "Death Rattlers"
MAG-33
Maz203@aol.com
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akdeja.. finally you admit your real fear... the arena will be "split"... How will it be split? You can't take off with certain planes or vehicles from furball island and you can't kill the bases? You can't take off in a lot of planes from the carriers as it is. That's not splitting the arena. Just like the carriers, Furball island is a bonus... an extra, a choice.
Relax... why would you even want those undisiplined scum around your tight little army anyway? Us kind probly just frustrate your well laid plans... Certainly I've heard enough complaints about people not doing the "right" thing strat wise. Here's your chance to keep us away from the real play.. er "pilots".
wizz offended? tough.
Sheesh... thought I was safe didn't think Amish had computers... Another damn protest group outside... Hope they get along with ex wives.
lazs
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Not finally lazs.. I've said it before. This is creating an arena inside of an arena. That means splitting the arena.
Building an exclusive island equates to building a wall. If you don't think that could possibly affect the arena in a bad way, you are dillusional.
Relax... why would you even want those undisiplined scum around your tight little army anyway? Us kind probly just frustrate your well laid plans...
OK.. whatever you say lazs. I just have my own personal agenda and am only concerned about my own personal views. I couldn't possibly be worried about impacts on the community or arena.. it must be all about me. Of course, I can understand why you would think that. Everyone of your arguments is actually all about you.
I don't agree with the furball island concept. I think it will divide the community even more than the "strat dweeb" and "furball dweeb" labels have already. You are a constant example of why those labels are bad.
AKDejaVu
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How is "furball island" building a wall??? Anyone can grab a fighter and fly there.... Or....NOT... it is about VIABLE choices.
You appear to want to force, funnel, encourage... whatever you want to call it, only one style of behavior and you hide behind the bogus claim that ypou are doing it for the "community"... I claim that your style is no more important, popular or worthy of preserving than mine.... Furthermore, unlike you, I do not wish to do anything to limit or even discourage your type of gameplay.
I say, give people choices and a fair planeset and let the chips fall where they may.
Look... even with furball island, the furballers couldn't and wouldn't if they could, do anything to spoil your (cough) "strat" game but, right now.... One strat potato or perk jerk, can spoil the fun of a dozen furballers by closing or killing resources. Your fear is that unless mommy makes em.... the other kids won't play with you. Right now if they don't play with you, you can go over and ruin their fun...
lazs
[This message has been edited by lazs (edited 02-22-2001).]
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How is "furball island" building a wall???
Damn lazs.. quit being so fricking obtuse. Furballing is not building a wall. Having a designated island separated for the very specific purpose of furballing IS building a wall.
Much as ALL of your propsosals do. At least you've somewhat migrated away from the "surrounded by unpassable mountains" phaze.
You appear to want to force, funnel, encourage... whatever you want to call it, only one style of behavior and you hide behind the bogus claim that ypou are doing it for the "community"
I'm sorry.. go back and find where I said people shouldn't furball. Find where I said people should fly my way. I'm not trying to force any style on anyone. I don't pretend to. I also don't sit back and label people if they don't fly my way. In that aspect we differ.
I just don't believe that there needs to be separate areas for separate styles. You are the one trying to make that class distinction, not me.
Furballs happen in the MA every day most of the time. If this is your style.. the opportunity is already there. About half the time I'm looking for the quick furball fight. I've yet to be able to find it.
AKDejaVu
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My cat coughed up a furball once.
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Originally posted by Moose11:
My cat coughed up a furball once.
My dog ate a cat that was busy coughing up a furball...coincidence? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Dogs that kill cats cannot, must not be tolerated!
These dogs must be tried and if found guilty, punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Remember, cats are simply little people in furry coats!
Yeager
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Originally posted by Yeager:
Dogs that kill cats cannot, must not be tolerated!
These dogs must be tried and if found guilty, punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Remember, cats are simply little people in furry coats!
Yeager
Yeah, tell that to people in India!
(http://www.tiger.to/g/main_siberian_aft.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-22-2001).]
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I have a solution that might work: designate a corner of the map which is just water. Have 10k airstarts, no fields, no ord, and nothing but 50% fuel. And no perk points. After all, if they allowed perk planes in this zone, it wouldn't be a fair planeset, right Lazs?
The furball crowd has nothing to worry about except killing, and the rest of the arena is unaffected.
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As long as there is more than one airfield per country to fly from, the players will be split up. So the idea of splitting up the players is a moot point.
All these people are asking for is a few undamagable bases a little closer together than normal. That is not much to ask.
How is that unreasonable? How will it be the end of everything as we know it? IMO a strat player destroying a country's radar has a DRASTIC impact on the playability of the game, yet this doesn't destroy the game.
Having a FT wouldn't destroy the strat aspect of the game. Just think of it as a battle for a few bases that nobody seems to win.
Or, think of it this way: If you're flying on one side of the map, is the game ruined for you because some of your countrymates are on the OTHER side of the map? Same deal with "FT", except the bases never change hands. The actions of some people will not affect the game for anyone else.
Believe me, I've played in arenas with a FT atoll. If you're not flying at FT, it might as well not exist--it has NO impact on the rest of the arena.
The best "anti-FT" defense, is that it's "unecessary because there's already a lot of good fights to be found". That's true to an extent...but not enough.
The problem with the regular arena (as "furballer" types see it), is that the fight's don't tend to remain very static. Furballers HATE having to fly 20 minutes to find a 1 minute fight--flying without fighting is a waste of time to these people. They HATE even more having to take off from a base even FARTHER away because the close base got bombed.
They aren't interested in flying around empty air, and aren't interested in bombing. They want A2A combat.
They don't mind the strat system itself; rather, its the fact that the strat system discourages prolonged fights because one side has to "lose". That isn't a bad thing, and I like it--but it doesn't appeal to everyone.
The most vocal opponents of a FT-area are mainly concerned that this will destroy the strat of the game. This has not happened in AW, and will not happen in AH. It is a positive thing, not the end of the world.
I wish I could convince everyone of that.
Last point....some people are getting a little personal....I recommend cooling off before this thread gets locked, too (there's been a lot of locked threads lately).
J_A_B
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akdeja... I am not being the least bit obtuse IMO... I say that furball island is not "putting up a wall". It is about having an area without walls for furballers. It is about choice. ANYONE can chose to fly in it or not by a simple mouse click. It is simply MORE fields and choices... There is no "wall"... The wall is in your mind. It is quite simple really.... Furballs are being ruined as quickly as they form by guys that are simply strat potatos, perk jerks or merely starved for attention. furballers don't ruin their fun why should the reverse be possible? Why should a lone suicide bomber ruin the fun of a dozen or more players?
The "walls" that you refer to in other posts of mine are about early, mid and late war "areas" and is a seperate idea that would be applicable and as a substitute for... RPS. I would still like this to happen as would others. We need to give the early war lovers a VIABLE choice eventually also. Everyone could choose the era they wanted to fly in and the perk issue would be moot... fairness, variety, action, choice and parity. All in one big arena. Course, we need more planes and a few more players first.
lazs
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Hmmm I see this is a hot topic and not new either. It wont split the arena, you can play the game as it is now or go furballing (is that a correct term? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ). The middle island wouldn't be counted as far as the rest of the arena is concerned, and you wont have to give up hangin' out with every one else by going to another arena. If one side is getting hammered, wouldn't it be nice to bleed off some extras to the middle? I've heard a great many reasons why we should have it so why not?? Are there programming/playability issues here we don't know about? Would that many people in one place in the center screw something up? I base this on what used to take place in AW3 when all 3 countries would be be in one corner of the arena. Maybe its not a concern with AH, maybe it is. I'd like to hear from someone at HTC. Have they considered this? Is it already a part of the master plan? Will 2 guys in black suits riding in an unmarked car show up at my house to discuss this post with me? Tune in tomorrow for the answer.........
Furball Island..I vote hell yeah (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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This is what I'm talking about:
(http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/images/ahmap.gif)
This was around noon EST today. (I'm home with the flu.)
As you can see, good luck finding a furball. The Nits and Bish had a lovely one going between A9 and A10. Rooks couldn't find a fight. I got one kill of a lanc before I got bored and logged.
Furball island would have let me find a fight in between trips to the can. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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Lephturn wrote:
----------------------------------------
This is what I'm talking about:
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I haven't been here very long, but already I'm flying less and less, because too many times when I log in, the arena is in a similar state.
anRky
-Ih8ubb
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You can't have any uncaptureable/unkillable fields anywhere near the rest of the MA fields. Doing so Does disrupt strat play because there is always a place where someone can grab a fully functional 100% fuel and ammo fighter.
If for example the center island in the MA was this magic furball place, all the close fields around it would always be more difficult to capture because of the constant wave of fighters that could come from it.
My main interest in AH is flying the P-51 and killing other planes. However, I enjoy it more when there is a goal in mind. Usually helping run the enemy into to corner and crushing his will is enjoyment enough.
That's why I don't play any games like Quake. Although fun when there is a mission (offline) just running around and around shooting all day for no purpose gets boring.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
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Gimme furball island.
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Furball Island Please!
All this talk about having such a place will ruin the game is ridiculous.
The most exciting time I've found to play AH is right after a big release (IE new planes) because the Arena is packed and there are furballs all over the place. At this time, to the dismay of all the complainers, the arena is full of people who just want to jump into the cockpit and have some fun.
Once this rush dwindles so do the people who just want a quick rush. Furball island would keep these people happy and more importantly keep them as paying customers. It won't ruin the gameplay in the main arena and it won't turn AH into anything like Quake. Setup the island and see. You can adjust the settings to whatever is needed to keep balance in the arena.
Tumbler
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hmmm...furball island
if you all want a furball island why you want fields on it?have a spawn point at 10k
and no fields at all.Limit the planes that can use that spawn and set up a inpenetrable
airspace around the island.
Or leave it alone like it is...I always find a furball when i want.Everything that is fun has to have an end.If some guy pops in and finnishes some field in a furball area that is his right.Normally furballs only distract countries from their defence.If we would have predetermined furball areas i'm sure they would loose interest after some time.On one side we would just have furballers on that island and the strat heroes would be just flying around grabbing fields. After all everything we do here is playing around with balances.E to E ,plane to plane,country to country,dweeb to dweeb,ace to dweeb,dweeb to ace,ace to ace etc.All the unknown and random factors give this game (errr simulation)it's appeal IMHO.
Imagine going out fishing and catching always just 1 fish.I'm sure noone would fish for fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas up there
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I played WB from V.91 until 2.0. A furball island never existed and people were always extremely happy with the fighting there. It was always constant.
It isn't the furball island you want, it's an hourly rate to enforce people to fight with you lazs.
Less time to lollygag around at 2$/hr..
-SW
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I've been a paying customer since the day AH went pay. I took a 2-3month break from AH to work on some projects, now I've returned and I find some of the old timers wanting to remove strat, and make the MA a Quake Arena! What the hell has happened while I was gone? It's one thing to see newbie's (they likely are just learning and don't understand the strat) playing the A1 curse but to see oldtimers asking for to be a major part of the MA????
If HT tells me he's going to make a Quake Island in the MA then I'll gladly cancel the two accounts I pay for now.
The one and only reason I play this game is for the strategy not the mindless furballing, if I want mindless fighting I'll play Quake. For the person that said Quake has strategy your mistaken, as I've played Quake since version 1.0 and I play it purely for it's mindless carnage. Quake Arena has a little bit of strat "Ok I'll run and grab the railgun then hide and cover the bridge" "MonkeySpank you go get the flag", "BigJohnson you stay here and cover our base" it doesn't go much deeper than that except for the extreme top 100 teams in the world.
I've always thought of AH as a thinking, planning, executing, sim that required a lot of teamwork and for the most part I still see it that way but the A1 curse is still here. I say give the Quakers their own arena make the bases 10K, undestructable, no GV's, and make 3 bases 2 miles apart that way just after takeoff they can hit each other with their BFG's (err I mean Chogs). Hell maybe they don't need bases at all just give them a 10k or 20K spawn point in the air and unlimited ammo, power ups, rocket boosters, speed increases, etc.
You do know why Quake doesn't have a monthly fee don't you?
Mox
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
I played WB from V.91 until 2.0. A furball island never existed and people were always extremely happy with the fighting there. It was always constant.
Bahahaha...what game was this?
Certainly not WB. Unless you have a very selective memory.
As for furball island, add my vote for it. I've followed this whole thread with amusement, watching the venting that is going on...and still I haven't seen one valid reason not to do it.
I think those vocal few that are opposed are afraid it will be more popular than their prefered gameplay, and indeed it may be at first while everyone checks it out. In the long run, however, it will probably even out.
What is the danger in trying it? This doesn't require any additional coding to do. Why not set it up as an experiement for a tour?
What's the harm in that?
-Smut
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Originally posted by Smut:
Bahahaha...what game was this?
Certainly not WB. Unless you have a very selective memory.
No, I just didn't read the message boards because I could never find them. I'd log into the arena and find a fight. No one squeaked, no one complained. There was nothing detrimental to my enjoyment as far as too much text being transmitted and no one complaining about fighting.
The only time I remember complaining was when icons were removed for all planes. That was a legit complaint too, you couldn't tell the difference between friendlies or enemies.
The only person that had a mouth when I was online was Dkid... and I joined his squad. I liked the guy a lot and we would have verbal exchanges on ch1, but it was all in good fun.
My memory is not selective, I remember my time in WB vividly. It was a great time. I certainly don't remember any of the tripe that I read on this board or in the game.
Someone's always got a gripe that they have to voice. 90% of the time it's just annoying, 10% of the time it can be legit.
It gets uhm.... tiresome.
-SW
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what is gratifiying to me is the new (to posting)faces that are responding to this thread. I really do feel that there is a rift in the player base right now and that the balance between fun and anal, Amish work ethic has been skewed. I see that the strat potatos are threatening to quit if there is a place where people are having fun even if it has no effect on them or their game or their choices other than to maybe thin their ranks a little by taking the chains off some of their captive (and bored) players.
Lep is right... It's not our "imagination" nor is it "easy to find a fight" even with radar.... Spend 10 minutes to get to a field and if there ever was afight it's over by the time u get there.... I talk to dozens of guys on RW while playing and every single one of em is on a (mostly fruitless) serch for action.... They log off in clumps... A fight with more than about 8 planes is HUGE these days and will guarentee that some spoil sport , attention starved strat potato will do his level best to ruin it. furballs are kept secret like raves or somethin.
I would love to hear what RW sounded like in a group of the Amish strat potatos. what ever can they be doing all this time before they club some undefended field into submission? Guess if you flew P51's instead of fighters it would be understandable tho.
lazs
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"Normally furballs only distract countries from their defence"
Countries Defense? IT'S A GAME! There is no contract that says you must fight as a team to win the war. Fighting in the same method can get a bit repetitive, take off fly 10 min, shoot enemy planes, bomb enemy base, rtb.
"Mindless Furballing"
How is furballing Mindless? It takes more intelligence to fly a bomber strike? HA. Fly away from enemies for 10 - 20 min gaining alt, line up on base, drop bombs.
The only time I feel mindless playing the game is on long bomber missions.
Vote yes for Furball Island!
Just change those 3 vehicle hangars in the center to allow planes to take off at 5k and don't award any points for planes launched from this base. And probs?
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Well,well,well What do we have here?
Looks like the CTF and deathmatch types are at each others throats again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
FYI I DO play quake/RS/CS etc,and I've been around with AW/WB/and now AH, You know something? Never really noticed a difference between the two gamesets, both have lab workers (Brainzz) and lab mice (D00dZ) If anything, the quakers have it over you guys on original insults.
You say you want to have your own playground that "Strat potatos" there's a nice honorific,
Ya kiss yore momma with that mouth? can't interfere with the high-minded act of dweebish kill-stealing,ackrunning,flying-into-your-own-sides-bullets-'cuz-of-killshooter that is passed off as MANO-A-MANO air combat here, but nothing that would stop you from wandering into their playground in search of "fun" That my friends is very biased,unsurprising, considering the great lengths you've gone to to put those folks down.
I like a good intense multi-level dogfight, it's a rush, but support you and your "boys club"? I cannot, you only deem fair in definitions that apply to you and you alone, while attempting to win converts by the rather curious method of insulting and stereotyping those who cannot accept your point of view.
If an arena in this game were created with that rationale, It would harm the game,HTC,and the community.
I vote no.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Here's another vote for the furball island.
You want to go bomb stuff, go ahead. I'm here to furball; and it often takes too long to find a fight.
The only time I'm interested in any thing else is for Historic Scenarios.
If I wanted a "Total war"; I'd be in the que for WWII-online. I'm not, I'm looking for a flight sim. A combat flight sim with piston engines.
Not a civil sim crossed with steel beasts.
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WB had several "furball island" areas, most notably the last 2D version's symmetrical water terrain. The 4 fields in the center were perfectly set up for multi-country furballs. Ever since that terrain, the fields in both AH and WB had been growing farther and farther apart. The current AH terrain was the first to dramatically reverse that trend, and I applaud HTC for making the change.
Different people have different ideas of how much change is necessary (alt launches/uncapturable/no bombers/no vehicles/uber-ack/etc) but they all seem to point towards 2 desires:
1) A place where people can satisfy their desire to get in as many dogfights as possible in their online time
2) A place where fighter combat is the prime objective, where the pilot's skill and teamwork is tested in pure air combat, without ground vehicles interfering.
How we get that is up to debate. The current "easiest" option is to remove the vehicle fields from the current center island, but that would negatively impact those people who use the center island specifically for ground vehicle battles.
After reading this thread, I'm no longer interested in hearing people whine about how a few fields designed to facilitate good furballs would "split the area" or somehow take away from the fun of those who like the strat parts of the game. Those reasons are given by the same people who think (and repeately state) that 8 player H2H or a separate arena should be "just as good" as a furball in an open arena. Those people have no true concept of why people enjoy furballs, and therefore in their mind they consider a furball to be any fight, regardless of how many aircraft are there, how long it took to fly to the fight, or how many ships/tanks/osties/bombers are also butting into the play. They just don't get it and likely never will.
Regardless of what you want, let HTC know what you think in a calm, cool, collected manner, and they'll do what they think is best for the game and their profit margins because they have to pay the bills in addition to keeping us happy. That's the only reason why I bother making this kind of post... I'm sure not going to convince Deja that 4v4 doesn't count as a furball without such teaching aids as a bar and a whole lot of good booze (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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eagl <squealing Pigs> BYA
Oink Oink To War!!!
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After reading this thread, I'm no longer interested in hearing people whine about how a few fields designed to facilitate good furballs would "split the area" or somehow take away from the fun of those who like the strat parts of the game.
Don't believe I ever said anything about taking fun away from the strat players.
Those reasons are given by the same people who think (and repeately state) that 8 player H2H or a separate arena should be "just as good" as a furball in an open arena.
Separated area in the main arena was the original presentation Eagl. Your idea obviously varies greatly from that. If you are going to have a completely separate area for one group.. then a different area for another.. you are SEPARATING those groups.
Those people have no true concept of why people enjoy furballs, and therefore in their mind they consider a furball to be any fight, regardless of how many aircraft are there, how long it took to fly to the fight, or how many ships/tanks/osties/bombers are also butting into the play. They just don't get it and likely never will.
You mean I don't get your idea of a furball. I don't get your idea of what "butting into the play" is. I don't get your idea of "regardless how many aircraft are there". 10 isn't a furball.. 30 is a furball.. a furball can't have people interfering unless they are in fighters.. 4 minutes is too long to get to a furball.. a furball can't have any ack nearby.. ack needs to be controlled at fields.. fields need to be close enough to make a furball convenient.. fields can't be close enough that everyone will be running for their ack.
I participate in furballs all the time EAGL. I look for areas where alot of enemy fighters are and head there for the sole purpose of shooting them down. No strategy other than that.. just to engage enemy planes. That is furballing. I do it and many others do to.
This thread is dedicated to defining a specific form of furballing and throwing it in everyone else's face. Anyone that doesn't agree with that obviously doesn't like to furball and their input isn't welcome. Its been made clear on a regular basis, and thankyou for doing it again.
AKDejaVu
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AK Dejavu,
I'll give you a perfect example of what I hate:
Logged on to night, and A8 was very hot. I could up, grab fanticaly, reverse at 5K and by the time I was back over the field, Action!
This went on for about 20 minutes, and was tremendous fun.
Then a pair of Lancs came over at 20k, and laid waste to the field, therby depriving about 20 people of their fighting fun.
I was then faced with a boring prospect of a multi sector ride to find some action, so I logged.
What is it that bothers you about how others want to fly? Why are you so determined to make sure that your choice is the only choice?
Why should I be forced to join your war?
Your vision of a perpetual three sided conflict, with combined arms operations and base capture simply bores me to tears. It's not worth $9,95 per month to me, much less $30,00.
We're we talking of an historic setting, I'd have more patience with your views, but in a general melee arena?
Go off and do what you want, but please leave me out of ut.
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lazs... well... hmmm... One of my squad's directives discourages the engagement of attacks directed against individuals on the BBS. So let's just say that you should know what I would like to say to you.
I told you before, if you want to furball then go right ahead and do so. Don't expect any special treatment for your "fantasy island" in the MA. Everything needs to be equal there, plain and simple.
It sounds like there are plenty of like-minded guys in here that want to furball. You have options, go exercise them...
1. Set up a H2H and let everyone know what times you will be there to furball.
2. Go to the TA with the rest of the furballers and fight all damned day.
I tell you that I am becoming plenty sick of you and your whiny attitude calling all that don't furball "strat potato" and "amish" and whatever else your heart desires.
IIRC, the non-furball types haven't made up any name calling insults to throw at you, have they? I guess it just goes to show that those who can play chess are a little more educated than those that play pick-up-sticks.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
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Originally posted by lazs:
what is gratifiying to me is the new (to posting)faces that are responding to this thread. I really do feel that there is a rift in the player base right now and that the balance between fun and anal, Amish work ethic has been skewed. I see that the strat potatos are threatening to quit if there is a place where people are having fun even if it has no effect on them or their game or their choices other than to maybe thin their ranks a little by taking the chains off some of their captive (and bored) players.
I decided to pay for this sim for the same reason you did (to have fun). Now that you are unhappy with the game you want to change the main arena to meet "your" needs and you wonder why most people don't agree with you????
I'm not against a Quake arena I'm against a Quake arena within the MA. I'm not saying I wouldn't try the Quake arena I'm just saying
I don't think it would last and I feel it would be bad for AH as a whole.
I'm all for Dale opening a Quake/Laz arena I'm against any form of Quaking in the MA, thats all.
Mox
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Reasoning doesn't work.
Examples don't work.
Proof from other sims don't work.
Other people agreeing doesn't work.
Neither side can make a convincing argument one way or the other, because everyone has their head stuck in the sand.
It is becomming obvious that people have their minds made up and are unwilling to give an inch.
THAT attitude--the unwillingness to accomodate other's view--is the opposite of positive growth. It's also the biggest factor limiting AH's growth. Compromise is what fuels growth....not stonewalling and clinging to the present while shutting out new thoughts.
Unfortunately, BOTH sides are guilty of ignoring each other. Nobody wants to give an inch, or so much as listen to the other side. Nobody puts himself in the other guy's shoes. The name calling certainly doesn't help any, and only fosters greater animosity.
The attitude I see is "I am right, and the other guy doesn't agree with me. Therefore, he must be wrong". Black and White....no in-between.
Why pay 30 bucks a month for the chance to be rude to each other? We get enough of that in Real Life for free.
All this stonewalling and namecalling accomplishes, is it makes the AH community appear "stuck up" or "snobbish". This community is better than that.
Rise above it.
J_A_B
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Yeah JAB the issue has become pretty polarized, and it always will be, But note, there are middle of the road folk around, they haven't taken a side, creating in effect a arena within an arena, is going to force them to choose a side, you know what? "If you ain' with us you agin us" is a rather ignorant method of dealing with the issue, Let's hear some ideas that might fix the problem as it stands, ie; furballers being deprived of their fun by the actions of the strat folk, instead of trying for some online form of segregation that a moment's thought would show cannot work, simply because it either hopes people follow the rules (Yeah I really see that happening) or artificially limits what folks can do.
Oh and note, If you really desire your ideas to be taken seriously, try more logic and less venom, I see no reason to give credence to someone willing to call people "potato" simply because they won't play his way.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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jab... I'm afraid your right. I know that furball island is percieved as a threat to some. They fear that it will siphon off players from the type of game that AH has RECENTLY become and one that they feel is "better".
Strat potatos? Hey they are hitting stategic targets in order to earn perkies so that they may evolve into perk jerks.. Why should I care? I don't really, so long as they don't ruin the game for me. And so... Furball island. Revetments, unkillable fighter hangers whatever... all we ask is that a lone suicide bomber can't spoil the fun of 20 guys. We don't have a "furballers only drinking fountain" everyone is welcome and it SHOULD be a place that even dedicated furballers would not allways choose... If something interesting was happenning somewhere els on the map.... we might go there.
Furballers don't want to spoil anyones fun. They just want to not have theirs spoiled. I have said that bombers would not be available from those fields maybe bombs in general. You would not earn any bomber points from there and you could not be a threat to the "strat" (whatever that is) game. There of course would be no problem if the strat potatos would police themselves and not ruin it for furballers but....
And what is lost with unkillable fields at a few places? I mean seriously... Any serious student would laugh when you explained the AH "field capture" and "strat" and how bout them "kill the hanger and planes cant take off"? Now theres some real WWII realism eh guys?
A furball to me is fields close enough that you can reach the mid point in about a minute or so. The furball is not about the fields and it is an aerial tug-o-war with one side getting closer to the field then the other. It is a fight that if 5 squaddies are involved you are likely to see 3-4 in the fight at any one time. When someone makes it impossible to take off from any of those fields the furball is over. End of fun. It's that simple. Furballers look for someplace else on the map and have a few more halfhearted attempts and then log. furballers DO NOT organize head to head or seperate arena's We are lazy. We feel that we pay to play a game not the other way around. We expect to have our style accomadated. Call us spoiled or stupid or lazy but when we quit the reason is not important now is it? IF A GAME ISN'T FUN WE SIMPLY CUT DOWN OR STOP PLAYING IT. Perhaps that is what some elite would like. But that seems selfish for such an easily avoidable thing. Telling us that we are having fun and just don't know it does not work. Telling us that it is our imagination won't work.
lazs
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Punt
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mwuhahaha
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Originally posted by Seeker:
Punt
And Runny catches the ball at the 20... 30...
I'm totally diggin' on this idea. I really, really want a place where I can opt out of the "war" if I want.
I think the "war" can be lots of fun, but I don't think most "strat players" realize just how much their play style limits the choices of people who don't want to play their way.
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There are already so many players at MA that it would be a great idea to split the arena in two.... Furball arena and MA.
If this claimed furball crowd is so large, why aren't they using the Duellin Arena already?????? Why are they going after the arena with numbers when they know that strat guys are there to ruin their fun.
Two separate arenas would mean less lag and more fun for both crowds.
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The main arena is now furball island. :)
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Any votes for turning off KS in the DA?
*It may take the furball madness out of the TA, where it doesn't belong
*If anything, the DA should be squad based, not country based, there's no strat nor war to be won.
*If you have to fly half way accross the "gladiater bowl" every time you get shot down, you may as wel be in the MA
*It may bleed some of the "mindless furballers" out of the MA and give some relief there
*Wild wednesday prooves no KS and a giant mindless furball is enormous fun, for those that like it
*It may bring use to very under used arena
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Wow.. go figure... those that want a furball are finding them just fine in the current arena.
Guess the argument is just as pointless as ever.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Wow.. go figure... those that want a furball are finding them just fine in the current arena.
Mmmm. Proof by strong assertion. How convincing.
The problem isn't finding a furball, the problem is that the furballs usually occur over fields that are soon to be closed by the bombers overhead. What some of us want are furballs that aren't connected to attempts to capture bases. That is what proves difficult to find.
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Mindanao...Furball Island...what's the difference?
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The problem isn't finding a furball, the problem is that the furballs usually occur over fields that are soon to be closed by the bombers overhead. What some of us want are furballs that aren't connected to attempts to capture bases. That is what proves difficult to find.
LOL! I was thinking about making a list of all the different things that people want in the arena and posting it for you... since THAT is what other people want. But then... why bother?
The truth is, furballs are there. They happen in conjunction with everything else. They aren't difficult to find nor are they short lived.
With the current numbers in the arena, there are ALWAYS furballs. ALWAYS. The main gripe is then that you have to launch from a different field for a different furball? This really merits restructuring the arena? Hmmmmm.
Anyone ever wonder why Pyro posted that "I want this... I want that" recording?
AKDejaVu
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wow..someone dregged this one up again. Check it out, ol deja STILL hasn't had that surgery to remove the stick from up his ass.
With the influx of newbies and the changes to field capture.... things are going better for us noble furball types. In affect... We have smaller arenas with harder to pork fields. No one with a shred of decency or honesty would be brash enough to say that people aren't enjoying the furs. Just look... the areas that are good fur territory are thriving. Minandoa is the most popular map... beloved by all who are not "accountants of the sky" or church ladies.
What a great time to be alive eh?
lazs
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wow..someone dregged this one up again. Check it out, ol deja STILL hasn't had that surgery to remove the stick from up his ass.
I'd rather it be a stick than my head. I see your preference is opposite.
With the influx of newbies and the changes to field capture.... things are going better for us noble furball types. In affect... We have smaller arenas with harder to pork fields. No one with a shred of decency or honesty would be brash enough to say that people aren't enjoying the furs. Just look... the areas that are good fur territory are thriving. Minandoa is the most popular map... beloved by all who are not "accountants of the sky" or church ladies.
Ummmm... maybe I misread all of my typing... and maybe you are missing your own point...
Is a furball island necessary or do they happen all on their own? You seem to be admitting to the latter.... thus making this whole thread a moot point.
I've been maintaining that an arena change is not necessary to accomodate furballing. It seems the MA is proving me right. All that furballing without a furball island.
AKDejaVu
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I always thought Furball Island was a cool idea. I think we've already got it though.
[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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well deja... it certainly is proving some points on both sides. 300 plus guys up does increase player density and making the fields harder to pork is a huge plus. We didn't have those things when this thread started but you pretended that all was fine anyway. Things are night and day different from then.
Now, look at minando map... works great WHEN there are a lot of guys up. Lots of places to fur. Look at Uterus.... sucks no matter what. We would need about 600 players for that map to work. Long boring flights both to and from.. People much more timid. CV's still fragile shadows of real cv groups...
There will be less players in the uterus map than the minandao one. Watch the buffer. The kills scrolled rapidly in the latter and slowly in the former. There were less guys on. There aren't enough viable places to fight in the uterus map. The improvements in field capture and the huge influx of players help but....
Not having a lot of close fields on a map allows the strat potatos and accountants of the sky to pork gameplay and cherry pick kills. Manly furballers and wussy strat potatos can't surrvive in the same environment if there isn't enough resources. In this case.... useable fields.
The ol gigolo funked called it.... with mini.. minana.. minoa... whatever it's called map, we have basically what I, eagl and lepturn and so many furballers.... wanted in a map when "furball island" was brought up.
Perhaps something as simple as fixing the cv's (the only fun places to fight in uterus) will help... certainly won't hurt.
And I've given it some thot... It would be better to have wood in your head than a stick up your bellybutton (especially one the size you seem to have). You can still enjoy life with a little wood in the head. I just think yu fear surgery too much ever since SW had u surgicaly removed from his hip.
lazs
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We didn't have those things when this thread started but you pretended that all was fine anyway.
roadkill. We've always had them and always will. Threads like this are just a means for people to whine about things not being just perfect.
Not having a lot of close fields on a map allows the strat potatos and accountants of the sky to pork gameplay and cherry pick kills.
LOL! the irony of that last part does not escape me lazs. You must really love all these newbies wanting to furball right now. You and apache just waiting to drag a couple of them out of the fray to bounce the toejam out of them. Oh... wait... that's just me not knowing what I'm talking about again.
Of course you're right... only the strat guys cherry pick. :rolleyes:
And I've given it some thot... It would be better to have wood in your head
Ummmmm.... you'd rather have a woody in your mouth? Guess you gave about as much thought to that as you did to the rest of this stuff.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by funkedup:
I always thought Furball Island was a cool idea. [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
Just finished reading through this entire thread. I am stunned. Is AH so brittle that it can't tolerate some experimenting?
I used to live in AW's fightertown, whether separate arena or isolated atoll. In my experience it changed nothing; most people gravitate to landgrabbing (these would be the "serious" sim people I've heard about, I suppose), leaving FT to those who cared nothing for Grand Strategy or points ("perk points" in AH, yes?). Your fears of disruption are unjustified. Period.
Here's a couple of suggestions from a starry-eyed newcomer:
- Try it for a month. HT has demonstrated a remarkable capability for making changes far more complex than a 30-day trial period for an off-to-the-side indestructable ackless island.
- Eliminate perk points, or fighter points, or ANY points, that would otherwise be earned within the vicinity of FT. The people who fly there are not going to care. Trust me on this.
- If, at the end of the 30-day trial period, the AH community has committed mass suicide, mass murder, become Hari Krishnas, or otherwise convincingly demonstrated the ill effects of FT, I will eat my hat. Honest.
- Oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman:
I used to live in AW's fightertown, whether separate arena or isolated atoll. In my experience it changed nothing; most people gravitate to landgrabbing (these would be the "serious" sim people I've heard about, I suppose), leaving FT to those who cared nothing for Grand Strategy or points ("perk points" in AH, yes?). Your fears of disruption are unjustified. Period.
Another advantage -- if I had assurance that I could always up from an undamaged field for a quick fight, I certainly wouldn't care *how* long resupply took, or whether craters damaged your plane. HQ could stay flat, for all I care, and I wouldn't give a rat's hindquarters what happened with the radar. As far as I'm concerned, the strat mavens could have all the rest of it.
Why not a separate arena? Well, I might want to communicate with my squaddies while I played my "air Quake," or might want to up from a different field and take part in the "war" for a bit.
Head-to-head is similarly precluded.
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Perhaps this was mentioned already (god knows I may have missed a post in this massive thread) but is it technically possible to segregate a section of MA for Furballs only? I mean, only planes taking off from Furball can fly in furball. They cannot leave the furball sector, nor can any outside plane enter the furball island sector. You furballers can maintain radio contact with your squaddies, and fight it out till your hearts content. Meanwhile, the strat guys can go about their merry way. The Furball sector would be a mini-map all it's own, segregated from the rest of the MA. It would have no affect on the outcome of the war, and would have the aspects mentioned above (no bombers, GVs, Etc.)
Seems like an overly simplistic answer so I'm sure there would be problems with the codeing necessary to make this happen.
Finally, is it really necessary to call people "perk-jerks, Amish, Bomber-Dweebs" etc.?
I like to play strategically. I fly bombers to help my squad and my country achieve an objective. It's my style of play as well as that of many others. I fly goons into hot sectors to re-up fields, not for points, but to help my countrymen, who fly the fighters. I don't insult the fighter jocks, and would hope they would afford me and my types the same respect.
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Muck, you just don't understand Lazs yet. It takes awhile, but once you do, it's all clear, and his "labels" don't mean a thing. :)
Tho I like perk jerks better than the idiotic perk system. Lazs, I say you go back to that one when discussing perks. :D
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If enough people are fuballers like Lazs, they should have their own arena.
if there aren't enough lazs's around to meet critical mass for an arena, there isn't enough furballers to justify changing the MA.
As it has been pointed out, furballs are incredibly easy to find - especially now that we got the high numbers.
Furballers will have to move from one base to another every hour or so. Doesn't seem like that's too hard.
Strat people are getting frusrated because there are some who incite and promote huge furballs, taking away people that could be used for strat fighting. Furballers are pissed because occasionally, a group of organized people remove their ack umbrella and take down the field.
Most often though, the field is taken down after one side has lost a huge furball, and the fight has gone over their field. Furballers with no targets attack the field to have something to do.
There's nothing wrong with the current design - the needs of both groups are met. For us in betweeners, it's perfect. For those to either extreme side, there are some compromises involved.
Again, if enough people want just to furball, it warrants a separate arena. If there isn't enough for that, it does NOT warrant changing the way the MA is currently designed.
This stuff about not finding a furball is ridiculous. I should be whining that I never find any good 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 fights instead, because the mindless furballers just keep coming and ruining MY fights :).
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stsanta said it... strat potatos and the timid accountants of the sky are pissed when a furball is formed or when there is a chance for one because..... If people aren't forced to... they won't play with em. Mommy used to make people play with em why won't HTC?
Manly melee artists are pissed when they have no opportunity. Or the opportunities are few and far between.
It isn't the ack umbrella (although that is a small part of it) It's the availability of a close fight. A close fight makes for fights between fields with squadmates being able to work together and a lot of action.
Feilds farther apart cause timidity. Who wants to get gangbanged after a long boring flight? You can sit on your hands and wait for an "organized" attack (read gangbang) that will be fun only for an accountant or.... you can circle your own ack and wait for attackers stupid enough to dribble in and hope that yuou are the one of 6 guys chasing said stupid con that get's the (steals the)kill.
CV's being hardened or more of em would help create "closer fields" with current resources. Sky accountants don't want this because if there is a fun place to be.... that's where people will go.
deja... u are really slipping. you are starting to be a touch dishonest and, worst of all... it is obvious..
lazs
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and dja... Are you saying that there is something wrong with apache or myself diving into a bunch of ack huggers (taking hits usually) and mking them think that they have a chance to kill us and still make it back to the safety of their 20 friends all circling around the ack?
Would it be more to your liking if we got 40 guys together and high alt bombed the resources of the field so that we could vultch, or fight ver the scraps that were left? Yes... I think you would.
lazs
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No lazs... I'm saying that using the term "cherry picking" as a derogatory statement towards others is a hypocritical thing for you to do.
I've seen you in a furball lazs... I know why you like them. I've seen you solo too... once again I know why you like furballs.
AKDejaVu