Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Naudet on September 24, 2002, 03:05:12 AM
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Ok in that thread there came a few things up about P38 beeing outnumbered at a factor of 4:1 to 20:1 in the ETO in 1943.
Now i just wonder were you got those impressive numbers from?
1st thing i'd like to know is how many P38s were ready in England in 1943?
I can't believe that in 1943 the number was anywere close to 4:1.
In 1943 the Reichsverteidigung was terribly weak, as far as i can remember the LW was only capable of bringing a max of 100-200 fighters to intercepty one raid.
The whole costline from Brest to Norway was defended if i remember right from just 3 Jagdgruppen (JG2,JG5,JG26,).
The Reichsverteidigung consited of JG1+JG11 for day-fighting (i don't count Nighfighters as opponents for P38s).
Also there were Staffeln of two other JGs (JG54+JG27) stationed in the Reichsverteidigung or the french coast. But i.e. III./JG54 it was exchanged with III./JG26, so one Staffel went to the west while one went to the east.
At best the LW could defend the whole airspace in the triangle Brest-Narvik-Munich with around 500 hundred dayfighters that were spread in a huge area.
To speak of a general 4:1 superiority in favour of the LW in air engagements is a little bit overestiminated i guess.
Usually the 8th AF did one big bomber raid per day in 1943 and that was escorted by the majority of its fighters.
So if 50 P38s escort 300 B17+B24 to the Ruhrgebiet in example they would face a maximum of 200 LW fighters at a time (Which was very very rare, around 60 attackers at a time would be normal), from which the majority had strick orders to attack bombers only and to avoid any combat with the escorts.
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yep the p38's where outnumbered but they beated the crap out of the luftwabbles
amazing isn't it
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I think there were only 2 operational fighter groups of P-38's in the fall of 1943 in England
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Well said Naudet.
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@bug: in your recent posts in multiple threads, you have showed such a great knowledge about WW2, based on a data base much greater than mine, that i have come to the conclusion, just to ignore your stupid inputs.
Especially as i am sure you will again post that stupid helmet pic.
@ammo: if there were two P38 fighter groups operational in the ETO at that time, how many planes did they have? Have to ask that cause i have no idea of USAAF fighter group size.
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There are 2 things that differ the overall strength of the LW in the west in numbers and how many they sent up in each mission. Relatively speaking the LW only sent up a small force to intercept the bomber missions against the Americans back when they were trying out sending buffs unnescorted it wasn't until mid-late 1943 when the the Bomber and Escort fighters started reaching extreme numbers did the LW transfer units form other fronts to suplement the small force in the west(JG26,JG2) and some units were created from other Gruppen. So the number of 60 against 8 is plainly put, false,in mid-late '43(when the P-38s started becoming common over Coninental Europe in October of the same year). After that in late '43 numbers began reaching odds of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.
By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more. Simply put the German Air Arm, got out produced and out numbered ,in some regards it also got out maneuvered and sabotaged by their own reluctant leaders in letting new innovative leadership take a much more important and active role in strategical descisions until it was too late.
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Originally posted by Glasses
After that in late '43 numbers began reaching odds of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.
By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more. Simply put the German Air Arm, got out produced and out numbered ,in some regards it also got out maneuvered and sabotaged by their own reluctant leaders in letting new innovative leadership take a much more important and active role in strategical descisions until it was too late.
Where in the world are you getting these numbers?
Re: P-38 groups. There were two in 1943, the 20th and the 55th, and they didn't became operational at group strength until November and December. As a practical matter, the 38s just were not a huge factor; the P-47 groups had been flying since late spring, 1943, and were the principal force that destroyed the cream of the Luftwaffe in the winter of 1943-44. (8th AF fighter groups, if I recall correctly, were 48 planes at full strength, in three 16-plane squadrons).
Re: Why the Luftwaffe lost. It might be a comfort to you to think that they were simply overwhelmed while they were being stabbed in the back, but that ain't the truth. They died from their own arrogance. They didn't take the 8th AF bomber effort seriously until too late, and then were playing catch-up while the Americans methodically slaughtered them. Galland, Goering, Jeschonnek, whoever, never came up with a workable system of daytime fighter defense. This is particularly odd given that the night fighter force did very well at organizing itself to concentrate on the Allied bomber raids.
- oldman
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D.L. Cadwell "JG26 TG of the LW"
It might comfort you Oldman to think that they were the arrogant little "Nazis" you and other propaghandist BS makes them out to be,which was not the fact. It indeed happen. Many of the LW Aces were being sent to engage an ever increasing enemy being extrictly ordered to engage the buffs(by the RLM) and ignoring the fighter escorts which made them easy pickings. You have to remember many of those aircraft were Destroyers not all were single engine fighters which at least were a bit more flexible.
They realized in the RLM too late by Mid '44 that attacking the Bombers was a waste of time, resources and pilots thus the campaing against the escorts began but it failed ,again numbers, and pilot skill played a large part in it.
But of course you can and won't never accept that like the truth. Many authors writing especially of USAAF in Europe take creative freedom in putting up pilot anecdotes as facts and war time reports from this side as the whole absolute truth. With the premise A:We won and B:because we won we won't have to apologize of any mistakes we make or have made. So any fables or fantasy stories can be added without it being factual, being admited an accepted even when things don't add up.
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Originally posted by Naudet
1st thing i'd like to know is how many P38s were ready in England in 1943?
Have total 38 deliveries at bottom cause its handy for reference. I do know that 2 full groups of 38s were transfered from England to 12AF in Oct of 42. Just before the start of POINTBLANK (May 43) the VIII had _TWO_ groups of P-38s and most of those were "H" models.
Figure 200 P-38s in England during early 43.
DD
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From Brodies book, by late 42 total number of 38s delivered by Lockheed:
210 - P-38E
99 - P-38F-4-1 (photo recon)
126 - P38F
151 - P-38F-1-LO
From 42 to 05/43 another:
548 - P-38G
From 08/42 to 03/43:
140 - P-38F-5A
Plus available at various times and places prior t0 43:
143 - P-38 (322 I, II, B, F) (all probably upgraded if operational by 43)
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of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.
Wow! The LW could only put up TWENTY fighters? Ohh wait. VIII could never get all its 38s operational so probably more like 15 total LW fighters. I had no idea the Germans were _THAT_ lame.
DD
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Glasses is correct.
The lw put up between 60 and 80 fighters normally. the were divided into roll 190s would engage the bombers 109 would be close eascort for the 190 and another group would fly top cover.
Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
IV. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
Total of 164 a/c
Not all gruppen in a geschwader were at full strength or operating at the same time.
in France jg26 and jg 2 were it. In germany jg1 and later jg 11
jg 5 in norway was made from scratch from various units and were never at full strength.
at peak and on paper covering western Europe Norway and germany there were 820 planes mid war. Caldwell estimated 1300 or so but this is late war strength when geschwader numbers were :
Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
IV. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
Total of 276 a/c
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I hear that the poles outnumbered the Lw as well, when they were agressivley waging war against the valiant german defenders.
Charon
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Originally posted by Wotan
Glasses is correct.
The lw put up between 60 and 80 fighters normally. the were divided into roll 190s would engage the bombers 109 would be close eascort for the 190 and another group would fly top cover.
So basically you are saying Glasses is INCORRECT right? If the LW was putting up 60 planes (your low end) and the VIII got _ALL_ of its 38s up the number was 3:1
DD
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no because of those planes the majority attacked the bombes and avoided the allied escort. The gruppen of 109s providing top would have engaged the escorts they would have been from 12 to 36 a/c.
The lw avoided the allied fighters to engage the bombers. The lw rarely had attacks of more then 100 fighters and most of the lw in the west front was within range of the p47.
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Originally posted by Glasses
D.L. Cadwell "JG26 TG of the LW"
I've got the book, and have been over it in some detail several times. I'd appreciate it if you could point out to me where Caldwell says that the Luftwaffe was outnumbered "10-1 in late 1943" and 20-1 in March 44.
It might comfort you Oldman to think that they were the arrogant little "Nazis" you and other propaghandist BS makes them out to be,which was not the fact.
Very little about the Luftwaffe comforts me, Glasses. Thinking about Guernica and Warsaw and Rotterdam and Coventry has never comforted me. Listening to Nazi military men blame their failures on their dead leaders, in the same manner that you are blaming Goering for the loss of the air war over the Reich, has never comforted me. There isn't a need for propaganda any more, because the young Aryan superpilots and their friends, so arrogant that they thought it was their right to try to conquer the world, got their parents and wives and kids bombed into the dirt and ashes of their quaint little cities and towns. Even that does not comfort me.
But of course you can and won't never accept that like the truth. Many authors writing especially of USAAF in Europe take creative freedom in putting up pilot anecdotes as facts and war time reports from this side as the whole absolute truth. With the premise A:We won and B:because we won we won't have to apologize of any mistakes we make or have made. So any fables or fantasy stories can be added without it being factual, being admited an accepted even when things don't add up.
If you're into fables, you ought to look at the German fighter pilot kill claims. That issue aside, it's enough to look at what happened in the air war to decide whose anecdotes are factual and whose are fantasy.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Wotan
The lw avoided the allied fighters to engage the bombers. The lw rarely had attacks of more then 100 fighters and most of the lw in the west front was within range of the p47.
The FIRST P-47 group to reach combat was the 56th joining the VIII AF in JANUARY of 1943.
So basically it was the LW fighters against undefended bombers?
Even if we count the _bombers_ the numbers arent 10:1. You people have gone beyond silly into the realm of creative fiction.
DD
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Wotan, i am speaking of 1943 and if i remember right the standard JG of 1943 had only 3 Staffeln and not 4. The 4th Staffel was introduced to answer the increasing strenght of the allied air arms.
And about the general situation.
There was a big arrogance among the leading Nazi-leaders, they though the LW could beat any enemy to crap and Goeriung encouraged them in that view as he overestiminated the strength of the LW.
One fact that cannot be denied is that in 1943 the whole LW was already streched to its absolute limits, defending a giant area from the Northcap in Norway to Tunesia in North Africa and from Brest in France to Kursk in Russia.
The LW success in those days was mainly based on the still very high quality of the LW pilots and their planes. But allied mistakes due to missing experience did their part too in those LW successes.
And as the numbers and experience of the allied increased the backbone of experienced LW pilots was slowly broken.
As far as i know the LW Squadrons were outnumbered on all fronts, but had the advantage that there JG- and Staffel-leaders were extremly capable pilots and they fough over their own territory, while (especially with the 8th USAAF) they faced a relativly inexperienced enemy.
But in early 1944 all allieds had learned there lessons and the USAAF did extremly well. Even in the air they fought a attrition war, that the LW could only lose as it missed the neccessary resources and training capacities.
All tactics the western allieds used from 1944 to the end of the war, were to effectivly neutralized the LW everywere. They intercepted LW-attack formations when they formed up, they flew fighter swepts to known LW-airfields. Escorted fighters had free hunting orders after completing their escort work.
All this put the small LW under extrem pressure, as it could not like 1943 choose were and when to fight.
This is why the allied won, they had the numbers to fight the LW everywere.
It has barrely anything thing to do with plane quality or pilot strength, it is just the fact that even the best LW ace couldnt rest a second and if he did, it was likely he would have been surprised and killed.
Such things wore out the LW and killed it.
In "normal" encounters of even strenght, even the "non-elite" JG of the LW scored well up to the end of the war.
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Originally posted by Glasses
After that in late '43 numbers began reaching odds of 10-1 in favor of the Allies in the west ,not only that, they outnumbered the LW in all other fronts.
By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more.
boy, the LW sure had poor SA, huh?
;)
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the nmbers I posted for lw reprent numbers from 43 onward lw strength in west in 42 was:
Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 36 + 4 a/c
Total of 112 a/c
At this time jg 1 was alone defending the Reich and jg 5 was flying outdated ac
3 x 112 =336 to cover all of western europe and germany
Not all were operational.
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Originally posted by Wotan
3 x 112 =336 to cover all of western europe and germany
Not all were operational.
damn, looks like they bit off more than they could chew.
The German military branches (and general population) of the time get absolutely zero, zip, nada sympathy from me - it was a war of pure aggression and greed.
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Go back to the original thread and read my post. That will explain what is being discussed, because some of you guys have lost any sense of context.
My regards,
Widewing
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damn, looks like they bit off more than they could chew.
The German military branches (and general population) of the time get absolutely zero, zip, nada sympathy from me - it was a war of pure aggression and greed.
you are corect the rest of the lw was engaged on the east front or NA.
The lw had less aircraft on ther eastern front then they had for the battle of britain. During the battle of the britain fighter production was that of peace time.
The lw, the heer, the Nazis made numerous mistakes from starting the war to begin with to the way they fought it etc.
Thats a given.
But when someones to paint an inaccurrate picture of 4 p38s entering a melee being numbered 20 to 1 its a bit much. The lw targeted the bombers.
The fact of the matter is the lw were fighting a war against the allied bombers until late 44. It was a war they could not win.
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Oldman, as for LW fighter pilots claims, they weren't much overestimated, sometimes not at all.
There is agreat book explaining the air war on the Western Front, JG26 Diary, you might, and others might wanna read it instead of just believing everything you've read in a single book.
Most of the kills claimed by JG26 have actually been confirmed by the allies, quite intersting.
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Originally posted by Glasses
By March '44 odds were 20-1 and for the remainder it stayed pretty much at that or more.
That's because the Luftweenies got their tulips handed back to them. Can't field an airforce when most of your pilots are six feet under. So much for the uber race.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Oldman, as for LW fighter pilots claims, they weren't much overestimated, sometimes not at all.
There is agreat book explaining the air war on the Western Front, JG26 Diary, you might, and others might wanna read it instead of just believing everything you've read in a single book.
Most of the kills claimed by JG26 have actually been confirmed by the allies, quite intersting.
Wilbus, we were going over this in a thread started by Frenchy, I think, called "Thruth or fiction," something like that. Caldwell, in fact, is the one who pointed out that there AREN'T any confirmed kill records on the German side, because the RLM records were lost during/after the war. What we have are claims. Caldwell also mentions, in several places, examples of overclaiming, which, in the case of 4-engine bombers, he figures might be double the actual kills. I don't want to repeat here everything we wrote in that thread, though, but my position is the same - the German claims are SO out of relation to every other combatant country - every one - that I don't buy them.
- oldman
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Oldman sure you don't buy and probably won't have to again the allies won so you make up whatever history you would like to hear. If you want to hear the LW fighter pilots were all evil genocidal Nazis sure. I could say the same for all the bomber pilots they were evil Genocidal Maniacs with bombs and strafing houses of civilians I could say the same, and to some point it's the truth, I'd be call crazy of course because it's not compatible with the history written by the victors.
You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies, at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?
Actually Caldwell puts an interesting POV some kills were awarded that were not true while some kills that were indeed the reality were not awarded and some were not even filed that had indeed been confirmed. So it all balances out and if you read and comprehened what you're reading you can see many instances where this has happened. Also is good to note that the allies in the west had also the P-47s squadrons and Spitfires from time to time escort the bombers to and from the targets.
Like Naudet said it was a war of attrition and the Germans simply could not keep up into replacing their losses. It is true the leadership, the nazi leadership is to blame for the blatant mistakes and judgement in strategy. In peace they were the strength and in war time they were the weakness that brought it down,simple as that.
Ack-Ack I notice you don't have an argument or counter argument . So try for you children's sake to diversify the gene pool perhaps the next generation might be able to put more than one liners.
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Originally posted by Wotan
3 x 112 =336 to cover all of western europe and germany
Not all were operational.
So basically the strength of the LW at begginning of 43 was actually 2:1 in favor of the LW on any long range raid?
At LEAST 2:1 I should say since I can find out how low the 38 strength dropped between Torch and the start of the POINTBLANK.
DD
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you are implying that all the lw fighters would be in there air at one time and operating in one sector along with all the p38s which wasnt the case.
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You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies, at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?
:confused:
Lets see: 6 million slaughtered in camps; entire nations over run; unrestricted submarine warfare; police state that killed its own citizens;
As a retired military member it galls me that people love the WW2 German cause so much. Stalin wasn't so bad eh? Pol Pot was ok. In the end you have a maniacle murderer running a powerful war machine. Many soldiers 'did their duty' with honor...but their cause, in the big picture of humanity, was dishonarable.
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I never said wabble pilots where nazi's
although in RL they where. Rotterdam used to be a beautiful city it really aint anymore.
never complained about luftwaffe planes
(they all very capable)
Hey someone might just like the look of it ok
I think the Ta 152 is a nice one for example
I never complained about the p38 either even when it had it's glass tail. I fly the thing from 1.03, and AH is modeling the p38 as close as the is available in the sim market.
Also all other planes including the waffe plane.
In a close fight the P38 just eats all late war waffe planes except a well flown FW 190-D and A5
these fighters are excellent so i have experienced
Ask Moot or Hermit seen them doing amazing things in it
I also never searched for a book with the right numbers that suits me.
I just don't understand why there is so many whining from the wabble corner about the p38.
any late war waffe plane can extend from a p38 and withstand some .50 hits A P38 always has to fight when engaged by late war planes. And is not able to escape when they pick on u. And any 30 mm hurts.
This ignorant wable view just anoyes me. Saying the p38 was a pos coz some super luftwaffe pilot said so. That's just BS
:rolleyes:
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If you want to hear the LW fighter pilots were all evil genocidal Nazis sure. I could say the same for all the bomber pilots they were evil Genocidal Maniacs with bombs and strafing houses of civilians I could say the same, and to some point it's the truth, I'd be call crazy of course because it's not compatible with the history written by the victors....
You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies,...
Glasses
I have to stand up for the cowardly allied military personnel who unjustly waged such a terrible war against the misunderstood Nazis.
The “innocent” German civilians were actively supporting the German war effort, both directly and indirectly. They were very busy making the tanks, planes, U-Boats, food, torpedoes, bombs, bullets and Zyklon B used to wage a war of aggression and genocide on a scale never seen on the face of the Earth. Were they all hard core Nazi’s, no, but it is very clear that by 1939 Hitler was accorded extreme support by the masses of the population (numerous primary resources that support this). They had increasingly supported Hitler since 1933, and that support generally remained strong up to and even after 1945.
Did all Germans (civilian or military) buy into all Nazi dogma? No, but many certainly did. And many just chose to overlook disagreeable areas as long as Nazism kept them employed and away from the communist menace and the uncertainty of a Weimar democracy. They saw little wrong, as a whole (with some notable exceptions, such a Goering’s brother, Albert), to the tenants laid out in Mein Kampf, which clearly outlined where Hitler was headed. They didn’t know the untermensch were going to be exterminated in mass perhaps, but they had no problem with the vague “resettlement to the East” and didn’t ask too many questions.
In fact, more than a few Germans were lining up to get access to former Jewish businesses, land and personal property in both Germany and the occupied territories. As Hamburg Librarian Gertrude Seydelmann recalled (Seduced by Hitler), … ordinary Germans felt as if they had suddenly won the lottery. Ration cards were still being honored, there were no serious shortages, husbands were returning from the East laden with meat, wine, and clothes and luxury goods were offered at basement prices. “Simple housewives were suddenly wearing fur coats, dealing in coffee and jewelry, had fine old furniture,” recalls Seydelmann. “It was the stolen property of Dutch Jews who, as I found out after the war, were already on their way to the gas chambers. I didn’t want anything to do with it.” Perhaps 30% of all German households received stolen property during the war.
The German military itself, seems to have responded to Hitler with a mixture of self-interest (even when they found the little corporal disagreeable) to outright reverence after the early political and military successes. Czechoslovakia and Austria certainly won many over. It may be splitting hairs to call all of the military “Nazis,” (particularly in the higher ranks) but they were certainly willing tools of Nazi aggression 1939-1943, as well as “heroic” defenders of the Reich once the fury of the world caught up with them. From my perspective, the most heroic defenders of Germany were the members of the White Rose. Try stepping away from the fanboi books and grand apologies and read some of the following for a perspective on Hitler’s rise to power and life inside Nazi Germany:
The Social History of the Third Reich, 1933 - 1945 (Pierre Aycoberry) -- Very thorough, but a bit academic and dry. Some people stood up the Nazi regime and paid the price, while others saw an opportunity to improve their lot in life.
The Nazi Seizure of Power, The experience of a single German town 1930-1935 (William Sheridan Allen) -- The fear of the world-wide depression, and to some extent of the communists, leads to Hitler’s rise. The Treaty of Versailles hardly matters in a direct way, nor did any particular hatred of the Jews. However, the nazi’s were brilliant at focusing the particular message on the particular audience.
Seduced by Hitler, The choices of a nation and the ethics of survival (Adam LeBor/Roger Boyes) -- an interesting look at how some Germans could and did say no, and how many compromised with the regime out of self interest or a general lack of concern with what was going on. It also looks at the moral dynamics with the Jews who cooperated in the Warsaw Ghetto and the camp system, and neutral and occupied country collaboration with the holocaust, etc. Authors lived worked (as reporters from the West) under East German rule and provide personal history about living within a totalitarian system.
Mein Kampf -- no secrets here. If you were a German considering the ramifications of Nazi rule under Herr Hitler, well, it’ s spelled out in black and white (with a little gray) -- from the Jews to Barbarossa.
I don’t consider the life of a German citizen actively supporting the Nazi war effort any more significant, special or exempt than the life of an Allied soldier that wouldn’t have even been in uniform had it not been for the Nazis. The allied soldiers were not the aggressors here. Most really, and I mean REALLY, didn’t want to fight and die in Hitler’s war in the first place. But they had no choice. If the bombing shortened the war (and there is plenty of evidence that it did, though perhaps not as dramatically as expected) and ultimately saved allied lives, and the lives of those living under brutal Nazi occupation, then the actions undertook to defeat Nazi Germany were entirely justified. Terror bombing itself, which is the most morally debatable aspect of the air war, caused serious production disruptions in places like Hamburg, even if the population wasn’t scared out of the war. Of all the efforts, perhaps the only one that went beyond the pale was Dresden. But then, it had been a long, hard brutal war by 1945, and you can’t escape the fact that there would have been no Dresden in 1945 if there hadn’t been a Poland in 1939.
I won’t even comment on the fact that the concept of total war was developed by the Kondor legion in Spain (and the Japanese in Manchuria for that matter), and was born out in Poland and Rotterdam. Hard to see someone as a “Knight of the Air” when they are strafing a column of Polish civilians in their glorious Stukas. The US may have done the same later on, firing at anything that moved, but they had good mentors and the efforts were aimed at bringing the war to a close with the proper victor. Perhaps you feel that the war should have been longer, leading to more deaths among allied soldiers and the untermensch in the death camp machine? If not, just how would you have shortened the war without strategic bombing?
It is true the leadership, the nazi leadership is to blame for the blatant mistakes and judgement in strategy. In peace they were the strength and in war time they were the weakness that brought it down,simple as that.
Was Hitler's Nazi economy really great, or did it just benefit from a number of SPD public works programs that began to take hold about the time the Nazi’s came to power in 1933? Would Nazi economic success, based largely on public works and a rearmament program, still have been so profound by 1941 without a World War? Especially with the corrupt business environment that existed as part of the Nazi bureaucracy?
at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?
Yes, this statement is amazing.
Charon
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See the whole post or what I was trying to get across apparently Charon you have your mind made up that German=Evil in WW2 all of them and they indeed have to die. I won't make the whole discussion again we had a while back. Anyhow after 15 odd years of poverty,unnemployment and despair some Germans were just happy that they finally had a job and a renewed sense of pride after the allies imposed the sanctions in WW1.
For some reason apparently you only see that they all were fanatical uber aryan believing the Nazi rethoric was true. You don't see that was their country that's all, they knew their nation called them up to go to war just as the Americans did oh! and if you refused you would be imprisoned, if you committed mutiny you would be shot. What's that? the Americans also had that policy wow! I bet you forgot that little detail.
I'm not portraying the German military as Saints I'm really not but, I'm not potraying them as evil as they were not, some of the allies did with their military far worse things the Germans did and vice- versa of course with narrow mind set of evil, evil, evil, evil they should be destroyed,murdered and their children raped(like the Russians did ) you will never understand.
You see and read so many instances of clemency in war by the German military,treating the enemy when they were wounded or rescuing or sending SOS signals to enemy boats so they rescued thier fellow crewmen when a U-Boat struck. I'm not apologizing or making excuses for the Genocide committed by the SS in Europe and the injustice made in the East by them at any one time that! is not excusable. But I'm sorry If I don't agree wholeheartedly with you because that simply is not the truth.
The western allies were the better of the 3 Main allied nations in Europe, even though they themselves did some terrible things to the enemy which the enemy had not done to them, they still at them end held the Russians from taking Germany for their own completely,even though they had some self interest in keeping the Russians in the other half of Germany.
Yes Charon and partly the way the Americans rebuilt their economy was because the war in Europe finally opened up jobs for the amis in the military manufacturing sector. So that of course goes both ways, leaving out details is a nice way to disinform.
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Charon posts the same stuff over and over do a search.
He excuses away the terror bombing of civilians or the murder of airmen in their chutes because "they were the bad guys". The allies rightfully tried and hung folks on the axis side for these very same things but the people on the Allied side responsible for the same crimes are touted as heros.
So what a bunch war refugees, mostly women and children were fire bombed for no miltary reason, so what if the war was all but over. Those bastard Nazi children were the devils spawn. A bunch future Hitlers.
I am surprised he makes no moral arguement on why the morganthau plan should have been the best thing for those surviving Nazi scum.
How dare you say different glasses. You goosestep through these threads failing to except what the victors tell you. You must be one of them. No wonder you fly Nazi planes.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Wotan
Those bastard Nazi children were the devils spawn. A bunch future Hitlers.
ouch ... you don't think they were educated/fanatised to support Hitler ?
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Just be glad it was Goering who lead the LW and not Galland.
The german's only weakness throught the entire war was their high command (of morons). It was the brilliance of their field commanders that brought them victories. How do you think things wouldve gone if it was Galland in command of the LW and Rommel in charge of the Army and Doenitz in charge of the Kriegsmarine from the very start of the conflict?
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Exactly Tac.
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Originally posted by Tac
How do you think things wouldve gone if it was Galland in command of the LW and Rommel in charge of the Army and Doenitz in charge of the Kriegsmarine from the very start of the conflict?
Probably radioactively after B-29s launched from Iceland or Greenland nuked the crap out of Germany.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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In most cases, allied fighters were outnumbered, even in late '44.
First, in early '43, there were 3 P-47 FG's (4th, 56th & 78th) + a couple of of P-38 FG's.
Each group had 3 squadrons of 12 planes each, so 180 planes. ..but...in '43, there would rarely be more than 2 FG's escorting at anyone time...add to that, that the squadrons would also be spread out, the LW pretty much always had the initial advantage, as the LW would try to gather as many planes in one spot for the initial attack.
It was not uncommon for 1 squadron (which later expanded to 16 planes) to face up to 100+ LW fighters. Of course they would call for help, but even so it would take time for the other squadrons and FG's to get there, if they could find the fight in the first place.
Even later on, when the massive 500 bomber+ raids started, the escort coverage wasnt much different, as each FG would have a specific section to cover.
Now, of course this is mainly dealing with the initial attack. I think where the LW really suffered from bad numbers, was on their subsequent sorties as they couldnt establish the same size groups and often ended up winging with pilots from other gruppen/JG's.
There's a very good book which came out a couple of years ago...something like "8th AF Command in WW2", which describes the situation from the 8th AF side. It gives a good insight in the problems they faced and the solutions they came up with.
Daff
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Originally posted by Tac
Just be glad it was Goering who lead the LW and not Galland.
The german's only weakness throught the entire war was their high command (of morons). It was the brilliance of their field commanders that brought them victories. How do you think things wouldve gone if it was Galland in command of the LW and Rommel in charge of the Army and Doenitz in charge of the Kriegsmarine from the very start of the conflict?
Interesting questions. Rommel would have surrendered early. I doubt that Galland would have changed anything - no one has yet explained why he was such a failure as Inspector of Fighters. Doenitz probably would have done better than Raeder, good point. But what you're ignoring is that ALL sides had problem commanders. What if Zhukov had been in charge in 1941? What if Bradley had been in charge in 1940? You don't get to pick a dream team, and the incompetence tends to balance out. At bottom, the Nazis just bit off more than they could chew.
- oldman
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My last comment on Glasses assertions in this forum at least, since it is off topic. However...
See the whole post or what I was trying to get across apparently Charon you have your mind made up that German=Evil in WW2 all of them and they indeed have to die. I won't make the whole discussion again we had a while back.
I don’t know, 39 million European war dead, mostly civilian and mostly non-Axis, directly related to a German war of territorial aggression might have something to do with that. You do remember that there was a happy time of aggressive German military conquest before the “dark days” of 1944?
I, frankly, don’t think the German people of 1933-1945 are particularly more or less evil than, say, Americans who actively or passively allowed slavery to exist during the first 100 years of my great democracy. However, I believe that acknowledging events like Slavery (or the fact that founding fathers like Washington and Jefferson owned slaves), World War 2 (not only the genocide aspect but the war of conquest aspects), European colonialism, etc. provide an opportunity for humanity to move beyond its mistakes of the past. Modern Germany has done a tremendous in this regard, IMO. America could perhaps do a better job in some areas. The truth may be unpleasant at times, but to ignore it, whitewash it, or otherwise “revise and reshape” it to suit some modern fantasy is a disservice to both the past and the future. The only reason I have spent so much time studying the social aspects of Nazi Germany is to see how such an impossible thing could happen in a country of otherwise normal people.
As the Scottish philosopher David Hume once noted: “Nothing appears more surprising to those who consider human affairs with a philosophical eye, than the easiness with which the many are governed by the few; and the implicit submission with which men resigned their own sentiments and passions to those of their rulers.”
Anyhow after 15 odd years of poverty,unnemployment and despair some Germans were just happy that they finally had a job and a renewed sense of pride after the allies imposed the sanctions in WW1.
After the First World War Germany suffered from inflation. In January, 1921, there were 64 marks to the dollar. By November, 1923 this had changed to 4,200,000,000,000 marks to the dollar.
Some politicians in the United States and Britain began to realize that the terms of the Versailles Treaty had been too harsh and in April 1924 Charles Dawes presented a report on German economic problems to the Allied Reparations Committee. The report proposed a plan for regulating annual payments of reparations and the reorganizing the German State Bank so as to stabilize the currency. Promises were also made to provide Germany with foreign loans.
These policies were successful and by the end of 1924 inflation had been brought under control and the economy began to improve. By 1928 unemployment had fallen to 8.4 per cent of the workforce. The German people gradually gained a new faith in their democratic system and began to find the extremist solutions proposed by people such as Adolf Hitler unattractive.
The fortunes of the National Socialist German Workers Party changed with the Wall Street Crash in October 1929. Before the crash, 1.25 million people were unemployed in Germany. By the end of 1930 the figure had reached nearly 4 million, 15.3 per cent of the population. Even those in work suffered as many were only working part-time. With the drop in demand for labour, wages also fell and those with full-time work had to survive on lower incomes. Hitler, who was considered a fool in 1928 when he predicted economic disaster, was now seen in a different light. People began to say that if he was clever enough to predict the depression maybe he also knew how to solve it. Useful link: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERunemployment.htm
How about a US comparison? At the worst point of the Great Depression, in 1933, one in four Americans who wanted to work was unable to find a job. Further, it was not until 1941, when World War II was underway, that the official unemployment rate finally fell below 10%. This massive wave of unemployment hit before a food stamp program and unemployment insurance existed. Where was our Hitler?
For some reason apparently you only see that they all were fanatical uber aryan believing the Nazi rethoric was true. You don't see that was their country that's all, they knew their nation called them up to go to war just as the Americans did oh! and if you refused you would be imprisoned, if you committed mutiny you would be shot. What's that? the Americans also had that policy wow! I bet you forgot that little detail.
Their country didn’t just “call them to war” as the allies did in the face of Nazi aggression, it called them to war in order to slash out some living space in the East as part of a greater Aryan destiny. I believe there is a clear distinction. Some Germans objected, some risked their lives to help Jews and other outsiders, but a great many just went with the program, with seemingly few moral quandaries until the bombs started falling on their cities.
Hitler was leagally elected in 1932/33, his rule was confirmed by referendum in 1936 (99% of the population voted, and 98% of those supported Hitler). There is no indication that fear played a major motivator in their support until perhaps 1944-45. If you were a former radical, then yes, you lived in fear. If you were a common person, then you just had to watch your mouth most of the time (but there was still leeway). Hitler made sure the economy stayed focused on consumer goods through the early years of the way to keep the citizens happy, not afraid. The size of the SA and Gestapo prevented a fear campaign without the full participation of the mainstream population. Records back up the fact that police officer #1 was likely your next door neighbor. Hitler realized that if the German people ever decided to overthrow him, they could. Even so, there are plenty of examples of Germans who said “NO”, and lived to tell about it. Look up the mass Rosenstrasse protest held in Berlin in 1943.
I'm not portraying the German military as Saints I'm really not but, I'm not potraying them as evil as they were not, some of the allies did with their military far worse things the Germans did and vice- versa of course with narrow mind set of evil, evil, evil, evil they should be destroyed, murdered and their children raped (like the Russians did ) you will never understand.
Please provide examples of the “far worse things” that a contemporary Ukrainian or Russian civilian might find sympathetic.
You see and read so many instances of clemency in war by the German military,treating the enemy when they were wounded or rescuing or sending SOS signals to enemy boats so they rescued thier fellow crewmen when a U-Boat struck. I'm not apologizing or making excuses for the Genocide committed by the SS in Europe and the injustice made in the East by them at any one time that! is not excusable. But I'm sorry If I don't agree wholeheartedly with you because that simply is not the truth.
Why were they in position to offer such mercies? Because they were waging an aggressive war to conquer large portions of Europe?
Also, Some disagree with the notion that there was a total distinction between the SS and the regular German military -- The Hamburg Institute for Social Research for example. Here is the outline of an exhibit they offer on the subject:
In 1945 at the end of World War II, shortly after the German Army's unconditional surrender, the Nuremberg trials clearly established that officers and members of the Army (the Wehrmacht) participated directly in the racial and genocidal terror that had characterized the Nazi project for a new world order. In spite of this, the defeated Germans began to construct a myth that became a central tenet of postwar West German society. That myth promoted the idea that the regular army had fought a "normal" war and was innocent of the genocide and mass murders carried out by the SS and the Gestapo.
Popular magazines, dime novels, and films presented the soldiers as "regular guys" – honorable and decent men doing their duty. Officers were portrayed as having been victimized by the orders of a mad dictator. Heroic images of men flying Stuka dive bombers and manning tank turrets and machine guns to hold back the invading barbarians from the East, helped to embed this image. These stories continued to distance the German Army from Hitler, the Nazi regime, and from the atrocities they perpetrated against Jews, other civilians, and prisoners of war.
The Hamburg Institute for Social Research, established in 1984 as an independent private foundation, created this extraordinary exhibition. It powerfully challenges the myth of the German Army's innocence, which has served as a core narrative of postwar German history. Graphic photographic evidence documents the Army's participation in atrocities in Eastern Europe. Harrowing photographs taken by German soldiers depict massacres, hangings, and torture. Official documents direct military units to exterminate Jewish communities. Private letters from soldiers to their families include eyewitness - and often boastful - accounts of war crimes. Military directives prove close collaboration between the SS and the regular army throughout the war…
Cont.
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... The exhibition leaves no doubt that the plunder, the massacre of civilians, the killing of prisoners of war, and genocide were not just the work of the generals or a few fanatical Nazi officers. The exhibition's conclusion: millions of soldiers – men with familiar faces and names; men who enjoyed love and respect – participated. Clearly, these men were subjected to massive ideological indoctrination, and acted both on orders from their superiors and, in many cases, on their own initiative.
One result of the exhibition was an unanticipated outpouring of responses from former soldiers, their children, and their grandchildren. They sent letters. They telephoned. They sent in the notebooks and photo albums kept since the war ended. They offered memoirs the soldiers had written for their families. Some of these artifacts are now part of the exhibition.
The western allies were the better of the 3 Main allied nations in Europe, even though they themselves did some terrible things to the enemy which the enemy had not done to them, they still at them end held the Russians from taking Germany for their own completely, even though they had some self interest in keeping the Russians in the other half of Germany.
How heroic. Why were the Russians driving on Berlin again?
Yes Charon and partly the way the Americans rebuilt their economy was because the war in Europe finally opened up jobs for the amis in the military manufacturing sector. So that of course goes both ways, leaving out details is a nice way to disinform.
Nice way to show a basic ignorance of pre-war US policy. If it was such an opportunity to our economy, then why did it take the Japanese sinking most of the Pacific fleet and Hitler’s declaring war on the US to bring us into the war several years after the panzers rolled over Poland? I suppose the families of 500,000 US servicemen killed should thank the Germans for the job opportunities. And my grandfather should have thanked Hitler (and Tojo for that matter) for keeping him away from his wife and newborn daughter for the first five years of her life.
Charon
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Originally posted by Wotan
at peak and on paper covering western Europe Norway and germany there were 820 planes mid war. Caldwell estimated 1300 or so but this is late war strength when geschwader numbers were :
Geschwader Stab 4 a/c
I. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
II. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
III. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
IV. Gruppe + Stab = 64 + 4 a/c
Total of 276 a/c
I tried to find some figures, too. Williamson Murray, in “Luftwaffe,” (Nautical & Aviation Pub. Co. 1985) says at p. 214:
Meanwhile, the air battles in July and August [1943] forced the Germans to adjust their air strategy. They could no longer support the attrition of those months, while the American threat forced them to cut commitments in the Mediterranean and Russia. Defense of the Reich became the top priority, and beginning in July the Luftwaffe transferred Gruppen from Russia to the west. The process continued throughout late summer as the east and Mediterranean lost their fighter cover. The situation was so critical that transferred units received no time to transition into the western defense system. ..... Fighter strength in German rapidly rose. From barely 600 aircraft, fighter numbers rose to 800 by July and nearly 1,000 by early October. In addition, substantial numbers of twin-engine fighters redeployed to the Reich so that by mid-October the Luftwaffe had nearly 200 of them available in Germany of which 50 percent were “in commission.” Finally, German commanders still used night fighters during the day despite the heavy loss of aircraft, radar equipment, and skilled crewmembers.”
He cites the British Air Ministry’s “the Rise and Fall of the German Air Force”, at pages 289-90, and Golucke’s “Schweinfurt und der strategische Luftkrieg 1943", at page 198, to support these figures. This seems to be consistent with the Groehler statistics found on Caldwell’s JG26 web site (http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/thtrlosses.htm). You will note on that site that average day fighter strength in Germany, in Sept-Dec, 1943, was 800+ as opposed to 368 in the Western Front (which I assume is Holland-Belgium-France). This ratio became more lop-sided in the first half of 1944 (927 vs. 259).
The Germans therefore had an average of 1200 day fighters in Germany (and the West Front) from mid-1943 through mid-1944. Allied escort strength in fully operational 8th AF tactical units was 274 in September, 1943, 426 in October, 478 in November, 565 in December, 707 in January 1944, 678 in February, 720 in March, 784 in April, 882 in May, and 906 in June (from Murray’s Table XLIX, page 224).
So. I really don’t see how one can claim that the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed by superior numbers.
- oldman
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And the final for Wotan in this particular thread, who, by the way, I personally find to be a good guy who has helped me a few times in the past, but whom I do disagree with.
Charon posts the same stuff over and over do a search.
He excuses away the terror bombing of civilians or the murder of airmen in their chutes because "they were the bad guys". The allies rightfully tried and hung folks on the axis side for these very same things but the people on the Allied side responsible for the same crimes are touted as heros.
So what a bunch war refugees, mostly women and children were fire bombed for no miltary reason, so what if the war was all but over. Those bastard Nazi children were the devils spawn. A bunch future Hitlers.
I am surprised he makes no moral arguement on why the morganthau plan should have been the best thing for those surviving Nazi scum.
How dare you say different glasses. You goosestep through these threads failing to except what the victors tell you. You must be one of them. No wonder you fly Nazi planes.
Wow, where to begin with the inaccuracies. Much of my position has already been covered in the Glasses post, and would be clearly present in my past posts if the archive went back beyond September (I wonder what happened to that?)
I don’t excuse terror bombing of civilians unless the aim, and results shorten a war of aggression that is killing thousands of truly innocent lives each day - the people living under all those goosestepping Nazi jackboots. You can argue if Dresden was necessary. In fact, I would agree that it wasn’t, but there is still some room for legitmate argument. The rest of the bombing campaign is a different matter. Even terror bombing, or more specifically “dehousing” as primarily practiced by the British, had a measurable economic and production impact. I believe Nashwan [sp?] posted some clear examples of this in previous threads. And, for all anybody knew at the time, terror itself might have worked. It was still considered a valid military doctrine by Hitler, thus the ridiculous V-weapon programs.
In addition, there were numerous ancillary benefits. The bombing campaign drew resources away from the Eastern front (shortening the war); allowed the German fighter force to be decimated because they couldn’t ignore strategic bombing (like they had previously ignored ineffective rhubarbs, circuses, US fighter sweeps and unfavorable encounters over Russia); disrupted the civilian infrastructure creating a myriad of logistical and support issues; forced a diluted split-force defense concept through “round the clock” bombing; forced a shift from offensive to defensive weapons systems; tied up anti-aircraft cannon that could have been used in an anti-armor role; diluted manpower (and womanpower) in general; and created new defensive burdens related to stopping the air campaign. To have not carried out strategic bombing means a longer war with much higher allied and occupied civilian casualties, and perhaps even a negotiated settlement. These results are unacceptable, at least in my opinion.
I will not exclude German civilians supporting their war effort in substantial and material ways from the target list, if the result has the AGRESSOR country defeated with minimal allied casualties. The life of an allied soldier, who wouldn’t be fighting the dammed war in the first place if it weren’t for Nazi aggression, is no more sacrificial than the life of an aggressor civilian working to prolong the war. As I have stated before, I would even be personally generous in the human cost/benefit equation where the non-aggressors - military or not - are concerned. If you, or your son or your father were sitting in a Sherman tank in 1944, I seriously doubt you would have had too many problems with anything that ultimately resulted in fewer Tiger tanks and less gasoline to run them.
As for shooting people in chutes, I don’t think I’ve ever commented on that. However, the difference might be that if a pilot is over his own territory he is not surrendering -- he is saving his life so that he can kill you and your buddies the next day. And perhaps, you just saw him kill a buddy, perhaps he just came within an inch of killing you just seconds before. Such things happen with all sides during the heat of battle. I don’t know of too many individual soldiers on any side that were tried for isolated actions that occurred in the heat of battle. Now, killing 50 adult Slavs as a reprisal for a partisan attack, or POWs from the Dieppe raid, is another thing.
As for the Morgenthau program, had it more impact than it did, even before the currency reforms of 1948 that made it totally irrelevant, then it might be more worthy of discussion. Saner and more future-looking heads prevailed, in a climate where punitive desires must have been tremendous.
But fundamental changes in the management of American foreign policy occurred after Harry Truman became President. While the President was still a Senator, he read in the newspapers about the Morgenthau Plan, and he didn't like it. Morgenthau wanted to come to Potsdam, threatening to resign if he was not made a member of the U.S. delegation. Truman promptly accepted his resignation.
Charon
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Originally posted by Oldman731
So. I really don’t see how one can claim that the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed by superior numbers.
- oldman
He'll ignore you just like he ignored me. Arguing with fanatics is fun tho isn't it?
DD
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Oedipus, did you notice that Major Howards targets were attacking the buffs or were in an inferior position?
From the text i can't see that he was actually hunted by those 30 LW planes, but that those LW jockeys tried to get the bombers.
I have similar accounts for british, japanese and german pilots. But they are not representative of what usually happened in the airwar.
Those encounters often charakterised by the fact that the outnumbered attacker managed to keep an advantage through the whole engagement.
In case of Major Howard it seems he managed to hold a certain altittude advantage that he used extremely well to protect the bombers from the attacking german fighters.
That shows he was an exellent stick choosing the right tactic at the right time, but i wonder if he would have survived if 20+ german fighters were chasing him all at the same time, to quote Major Howard himself "I never saw 30 fighters all at once the way the bomber people tell it. I’d see one, give him a squirt, and go up again. There were an awful lot of them around it was just a matter or shooting at them." To me it seems Major Howard didnt feel really hunted in that engagement nor does he give an account that an enemy ever got behind him.
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Am I correct in understanding that a point raised in this discussion is that the LW were misdirected to concentrate on the bombers raiding Germany instead of beating off the escorts? That the failure to down the escorts (regardless of the fate of the bombers) was the true cause of the LW decline?
Why is this so; when it is generally accepted (as far as I understand) that this precise same policy was followed to great succsess by the RAF in the Battle of Britain? Namely: to concentrate the attrition on the destructive arm of the enemy ( the bombers) and to actively avoid contact with the escort?
What then, is the essential difference between the Battle of Britain; and the battle of the Reich? Why would Dowdings proven strategy for success for Britain not work for Germany? Why is it assumed that Leigh Mallory's misguided "Bigwing" philosophy would work for the Riech?
Vics of three rolling over into a 100+ Heinkels - That's what I call numericalk disadvantage; and I don't really understand why better flyiers flying better machines should be less successfull with similar tactics; any one?
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No Seeker, the point in this discussion is that the allied escorts were not truly outnumbered in mid 1943 allthought there numbers looked pretty small on paper compared to the fighters the LW had to defend the German Reich on paper.
I could try to analyse why the LW lost both the BoB and the Battle of the Reich, but that would take a huge answer, that doesnt relate to this thread.
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and I don't really understand why better fliers flying better machines should be less successfull with similar tactics; any one?
(raises hand) Me! Meme!
Seeker: Yes, Arlo?
Arlo: Unterflaminaviatorz?
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Originally posted by Naudet
allthought there numbers looked pretty small on paper
Although .... their.
I figured being a spelling nazi would fit right in here. :D
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thats what we have been telling you. The lw didnt attack the allied escorts they attacked the bombers, You cant grasp that and keep spewing the same non-sense.
If you ever called me nazi to my face I would jack your bellybutton up in second.
I am done with thread and done with folks like you. You want hurl insults over a bbs like a punk.
All the units on the western front were engaged with the bombers not allied fighters. So you cant claim that the allied fighters are out numbered. The lw were attacking bomber formations greater then their fighter force. In situations like this a small group of escorts can be effective in disrupting an attack.
To say the allies were "outnumbered" based on total lw aircraft is as bs as you are. You dont seem to wanna account for how many allied planes of all types were in the air. The lw did go up to engage fighters.
If you look at total number of sorties the allies put up into comparison to the lw you will see the lw was infact overwhelmed. Not by allied allied fighters but by the never ending waves of bombers.
You too fediddleing stupid to follow along well then fek you. I bet a dollar to a donut you would think twice before you pull that nazi toejame to my face.
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just some info here and a snippet from another book or two.
this is a layout of the numbers of 190s operationsal in the western front on 27th july 1942:
luftfliott3 (france,Belgium)
UNIT/TOTAL/SERVICEABLE
JG2:
stab / 4 / 3
I gruppe / 36 / 29
II gruppe / 37 / 34
III gruppe / 39 / 31
10 Staffel / 15 / 11 (fighterbomber unit)
JG26
stab / 4 / 4
I gruppe / 38 / 28
II gruppe / 41 / 36
III gruppe / 36 / 33
10 Staffel / 15 / 12 (fighterbomber unit)
Aufklarungsgruppe 33
1. staffel / 1 / 0 (recon unit also operated 109's and ju88s)
Aufklarungsgruppe 123
1. Staffel / 1 / 0 (recon unit also operated 110's and ju88s)
Luftflotte 5 (artic sector, eastern front)
JG 5
I gruppe / 35 / 28
IV Gruppe / 26 / 20
Luftwffenbefelshaber mitte (reich air defence)
JG 1
stab / 4 / 4
I gruppe / 37 / 34
IIgruppe / 38 / 28
III gruppe / 40 / 33
IV gruppe / 39 / 28
now im not trying to prove anyones case here but ive seen some numbers thrown around and they just dont really match up consistantly.Like ive said before if you read about most of the engagements one side or the other had an advantage in numbers.It wasnt always in LW or USAAF's favour and to make blanket statements about it is pretty rediculous.
heres the shortened list for the 17th may 1943 (fw190s again) only including those groups likely to defend against bombers.
Luftflotte 3(belgium, France)
JG2
stab / 4 / 4
Igruppe / 40 / 40
IIgruppe / 24 / 18
IIIgruppe / 40 / 37
JG26
stab / 4 / 4
Igruppe / 40 / 40
IIgruppe / 40 / 35
JG54
11. staffel / 16 / 9 (fighter bomber unit)
Schnellkampfgeschwader 10 (fastbomber)
stab / 6 / 6
Igruppe / 42 / 42
IIgruppe / 40 / 38
IIIgruppe / 30 / 23
Luftwaffenbefelshaber mitte (reich air defence)
JG1
stab / 3 / 1
Igruppe / 31 / 27 (unit also flew 109s)
IIgruppe / 39 / 31
JG11
Igruppe / 40 / 27
these are just 190s of course but it gives you a clear picture of the number of seviceable aircraft on these days.I cant tell you how many of these were up in a single engagement but i suspect 60 is a rather conservative estimate given that these numbers do not even include the 109s or 110s/me410 etc.the fighter bomber units are not likely to have been used against the bombers but i uncluded them anyway.
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Originally posted by Wotan
If you ever called me nazi to my face I would jack your bellybutton up in second.
I am done with thread and done with folks like you. You want hurl insults over a bbs like a punk.
I bet a dollar to a donut you would think twice before you pull that nazi toejame to my face.
1 .... 2 .... 3 .... 4 .... 5 .... 6 .... 7 .... 8 .... 9 .... 10, he's out!
(Hold's up Woton's glove as Woton lays unconscious on the mat)
Howard: It's all over, folks. Woton had defeated Woton for the flyweight title of the Third Reich!
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Originally posted by Wotan
thats what we have been telling you. The lw didnt attack the allied escorts they attacked the bombers, You cant grasp that and keep spewing the same non-sense.
If you ever called me nazi to my face I would jack your bellybutton up in second.
I am done with thread and done with folks like you. You want hurl insults over a bbs like a punk.
All the units on the western front were engaged with the bombers not allied fighters. So you cant claim that the allied fighters are out numbered. The lw were attacking bomber formations greater then their fighter force. In situations like this a small group of escorts can be effective in disrupting an attack.
To say the allies were "outnumbered" based on total lw aircraft is as bs as you are. You dont seem to wanna account for how many allied planes of all types were in the air. The lw did go up to engage fighters.
If you look at total number of sorties the allies put up into comparison to the lw you will see the lw was infact overwhelmed. Not by allied allied fighters but by the never ending waves of bombers.
You too fediddleing stupid to follow along well then fek you. I bet a dollar to a donut you would think twice before you pull that nazi toejame to my face.
You know, if you don't want people insulting you, then don't insult people. Works about 99% of the time.
Oh, and threatening people over the Internet just isn't bright. It's a real arguement winner though. NOT!!!!
Now, you need to make up your mind. Right here in this post, you say "The lw didnt attack the allied escorts they attacked the bombers", and then you say "The lw did go up to engage fighters." MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
If there were escorts with the bombers, when the Luftwaffe attacked, what do you think the escorts did, watch? No, the escorts engaged. Therefore, the escorts were fighting the Luftwaffe fighters. By your own numbers, there were about 4 times as many Luftwaffe fighters as Allied escorts in late 43 to early 44. Now, are you saying the Luftwaffe turned tail and ran when faced with escorts? Are you saying the Luftwaffe ignored escorts and attacked bombers only, while the escorts were engaging the Luftwaffe? Or are you saying that the fact that bombers were present made the Luftwaffe outnumbered? Get your story straight big boy, and make sure it matches history and the numbers, or take your Luftwaffe to the hanger.
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You know, if you don't want people insulting you, then don't insult people. Works about 99% of the time.
LMAO seems not to work for me, i have not insulted anyone and beeing called a "Florida Nazi".
But hey Oedipus, i am from germany i am a real german, BUT I AM NO FREAKING NAZI you handsomehunk. (You see when i insult people it is pretty direct, so now i have stepped over the line).
I am and will always be glad that Nazi-regime has been destroyed by the allies. I am in the Sozialdemokratic Party here, so i will ignore the buttheads that try to end every freaking discussion, they don't like cause it touches there heroic WW2 legends, by calling the opposition a Nazi.
I have given you the numbers for the LW in 1943, the JGs that were stationed on the french up to the norwegian coast, together with the JGs that were stationed within the Reich.
And everyone with a little brain in his skull could see that those were pretty few fighters for such a large area.
But anyway, i will end this here.
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Nazis suck ass. Its a proven fact. Hell, killing them should be an Olympic sport. 100 meter freestyle Nazi kill. It would be more of a sport than that dancing with a ball and ribbon crap they pass off as gymnastics.
*NOTE FOR THE HUMOR IMPAIRED*
Please notice I used the word "Nazi" and not German. I know there is a difference. Germans make beer, Nazis die at the hand of Indiana Jones.
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Captain virgil roadkill whatever your name is.
you obviously take your history lessons from a decent book. perhaps that fine literary masterpeice of accurate historical info called ....hmmm what was it now?.....ah yes 'marvel's GI JOE' COMIC book.
Im british and as such on the allies side involving discussions on WW2 but unlike you i dont choose to believe the hype of hollywood movies.I prefer to read a whole selection of accounts ranging from German to British and American with as many others as its possible to find like Italian,Russian etc. I read accounts by the Australian and New Zealanders which dont always show my country (Britian) in a good light concerning what we asked of them.You see in my view the truth is more important than being able to claim my country had a 'top ace' etc.
heres an excerpt from 'Combat Crews' by John Comer who was in the 112th Cavalry in 1928 and never liked horses after that :).In 1943 he flew the missions from England on which this book is based.He was Engineer-top turret gunner in Fortresses.In 1944 he flew 50 missions from Italy.
this is on the return from a mission:
' As we approached Ridgewell, Kels punched me and pointed down "Cahow is buzzing the field" Indeed he was.At the 381st it was customary to permit a pilot returning from his twenty-fifth mission to buzz the field in celebration of a job well done.
That day we lost seventeen Forts to German fighters.To my thinking the loss was exessive.It was the familiar pattern of late: loose, erratic formations inviting Jerry to attack.The accumulated losses in men and aircraft during the summer and fall of 1943 were staggering and beyond expectations.The replacement crews were put through speeded up training procedures, by no means as thorough as the original 381st received. The predictable result was that inexperienced pilots and crews predominated, and the price we paid was higher casualties than should have been necessary.In the air as on the ground, raw troops rarely fare well against seasoned battle-hardened forces.But an attrition factor was working for us: we were thinning out the experienced pilots of the luftwaffe.When a veteran German pilot with eight to ten years of training plus experience in numerous campaigns was lost, they could not replace him any faster than we could create his counterpart in the U.S. or England.The advantage in attrition gradually shifted to the side with the largest manpower and industrial facilities. Fortunately, that was the combined might of the Allied forces.'
Now pardon me but this hardly sounds like a 'nazi' roadkillting about how the Allies managed to overwhelm the LW does it? so why have you idiots got to start accusing people on here who are trying to describe this to you of the same?.
If you ask me you people saound like morons with no idea about what went on up there and hardly ever read a book on the subject.If you did, and i mean read almost ANY book about it you would know what was said in this excerpt is the accepted truth.
We, the allies, didnt always have the better equiptment or even the more experienced pilots, but we kept on attacking and attacking regardless almost of the losses until we broke Germanies back in a war of resources and manpower.Choose to believe otherwise and keep reading your comics if you have to but please dont post on here like you know what youre talking about because its pretty clear you dont.
What I find quite repulsive is this constant 'we had the best planes, best pilots, best this, best that,' crap you people keep spewing.Dont you realise that when you try to make out the LW as some third rate outfit you actually belittle what our forces had to face and win against?
You make it out as if the allies had it easy when it was a struggle.Its a comic book mentality you all seem to have. Like i said before yes there were days when the LW had the numbers in a LOCAL battle and there were days when the escorts were in the right place at the right time and outnumbered what the LW put up but overall the LW were simply outproduced and like this author i quoted says they simply could not replace the experienced pilots once they were lost and then it was down to who had the most manpower. Now whether you accept this or not is up to you but im pretty sure I'll believe a REAL veterans story rather than some virtual gamesplayer who thinks he actually is a captain in some fictitious virtual squadron.I think you might just need medical help myself :)
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Here we have another Luftwaffe fan who can do no better than screaming fits and insults.
Hazed, have you no better retort than to call me names?
Read books? Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Talk to veterans? Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, I get email fairly regularly from several veterans, and a couple of well respected authors.
Listen, Hazed, and the rest of the armchair Luftwaffe, if the best you can do is throw screaming fits, sling cheap and pitiful insults, and post a bunch of crap like you do, just don't waste time and bandwidth. I've been studying World War II since about 1973, and discussing it with veterans, historians, and noted authors for about 20 years. If you want to argue facts, without all the other crap you seem to drag into every thread, let me know, I'll be happy to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. But I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, which seems to be all that is available here.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Listen, Hazed, and the rest of the armchair Luftwaffe, if the best you can do is throw screaming fits, sling cheap and pitiful insults, and post a bunch of crap like you do, just don't waste time and bandwidth. I've been studying World War II since about 1973, and discussing it with veterans, historians, and noted authors for about 20 years. If you want to argue facts, without all the other crap you seem to drag into every thread, let me know, I'll be happy to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. But I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, which seems to be all that is available here.
They can't. Spiritually this is the same crowd that used SWOTL as primary source documentation back on GEnie AW days. They have endless fascination with organization tables and and mass market "fact" books, but very little desire to find or understand primary source documentation
About the only usefull purpose in life the junior luftwaffe auxilary serves is as squeak toys hehehehe
DD
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I find you use of the term "armchair Luftwaffe" highly amusing Sir Most High Honored Captain Virgil Hilts.... I guess you are the real thing fought in the skies during WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Or do you take your coloring book sing-a-long war fantasies or perhaps flightsims so seriously that you actually think you are the real deal fighter pilot reincarnate and then go about calling other people "armchair".
You are funny.
Now I dont really care to such an anal extent about what happened in WW2 except that the good guys won, the bad guys lost and that the LW and many other countries planes looked cool doing it. Plus it makes fun reading and one hell of a game.
So there. I dont care about your fantasies and AOL buddy lists, you simply strike me as pompous jerk. And thats not name calling thats a description....
Signed:
Uberfeldmarschall Scharfuhrer Untersturmfuhrer Oberfeldwebel Unterfeldwebel Grunherz Hultz
XIV/JG69 45th staffelhund Luftwobble
Stagnated Cabbage
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So there. I dont care about your fantasies and AOL buddy lists, you simply strike me as pompous jerk. And thats not name calling thats a description....
And your description of the junior luftwaffe would be?
DD
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They too are all full of it too frankly. I find I get wrapped up in this stupid wrangling one way or another whatever the argument and then end up resenting the whole AH game and never fly much.
It's all childish and none of us here has the truth or even close. I guess thats why I'm so angry with his high Majesty Ubersturmfuhrer Virgil Hilts because he acts like such a smart bellybutton poumpous know it all and calls everyone else, especially those who disagree with him, "armchair". Like he was some sort of professional or a real WW2 pilot...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They too are all full of it too frankly. I find I get wrapped up in this stupid wrangling one way or another whatever the argument and then end up resenting the whole AH game and never fly much.
It's all childish and none of us here has the truth or even close. I guess thats why I'm so angry with his high Majesty Ubersturmfuhrer Virgil Hilts because he acts like such a smart bellybutton poumpous know it all and calls everyone else, especially those who disagree with him, "armchair". Like he was some sort of professional or a real WW2 pilot...
Oh, and I'm worse than Hazed, Naudet, Wotan, or you. Right. No, you're angry with me because I'm on the other side from you and your buddies, and I won't fold, nor will I sink the the flame level. Otherwise, you'd be just as angry with them, and you aren't. Double standard, on your part, not mine. Facts are facts.
No, I was not a fighter pilot, never claimed to be, I was 4F due to a wasted knee. I wish I had the opportunity. Whether you believe it or not, I do happen to correspond directly with around a half dozen or more real World War II fighter pilots, plus a couple of authors and historians.
DD is definitely right, the best use for the majority is as a squeak toy (TM). Oh well, it ain't my problem.
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Then explain armchair? Do you actually think you are any better informed than the average person on this BBS? Do you have acces to speacial info only available to "non armchair" types like those rank Captain and above?
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captain virgil, (now isnt that the pilot of thunderbirds 2?)
Ive tried to tell you why i think what you spout is nonsense and gave you one of many books written by REAL WW2 veterans, easily verifyable by buying the book i have given you the title and author of but you choose to try to claim you have some kind of inside information.Well Im asking you to verify your so called veteran email pals.And listing their names isnt going to cut it.Seems to me the internet is full of people who realy do believe the bs they spout.I havent seen you refer to any book or author or veteran or anything else.Nothing we can check up on or read apart from the odd WB web site created by similar fictitious 'Captains'.Its all roadkill made up by those who have had years of practice producing mindless pap.its quite obvious we wouldnt be able to compete with it, nor would we want to, or we would appear to be as full of crap as you do.
I havent sided with anyone on this thread if you would care to read what ive posted.I have merely given you published figures and quotes from published books.More than what you have i might add.Your opinion counts for nothing for me unless you can prove to me you were there or are a writer of some note.My guess is you are a 'armchair' gameplayer with a dellusion that he was somehow there.Your so called veteran email friends are probably a collection of a similar group of like minded sim pilots who write AAR's for their nightly playing and decide they are good enough to be the real thing.
what a sad lot you are.I come here to fly in a game and i go elsewhere for an accurate picture of what happened during the war.Now unless you can somehow prove the books im reading are fictitious, and you can start with John Comers, I suggest you give up trying to make out you know better than those said books.
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I've often wondered, having read pilot accounts from both sides... they both claim that they were outnumbered all the time. I've thought many times that it was a matter of preception.
To an allied escort the bombers don't factor into the occasion. To him seeing enemy fighters it was about fighter vs fighter combat. So in a situation of lets say 20 allied fighters escorting 100 bombers being attacked by 50 axis fighters. The allied fighter pilot sees himself as being outnumbered 50:20. The axis pilot on the other hand sees (20+100) 120 enemy planes all trying to kill him. So in the same situation he'd describe himself as being outnumbered 120:50.
This could explain at least the observations of servicemen in combat. I don't have any info sitting in front of me concerning squadron strength or anything like that so I won't make an argument on somthing I admittedly know little about. But I think this idea of perception of combat would account for the stories we've heard about side X allways being outnumbered in the air by side Y.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Then explain armchair? Do you actually think you are any better informed than the average person on this BBS? Do you have acces to speacial info only available to "non armchair" types like those rank Captain and above?
Other than direct access to some of the pilots who were there, and a couple of historians/authors, no, I don't have access to anything that is not available to anyone else. I never claimed to. Am I better informed than the AVERAGE person? Probably.
The thing is, I do not go looking for information to prove my point, I'm not searching for one thing and disregarding everything else. I look for all the information in a quest for the truth. The problem with most people is they go looking for information to support their beliefs and suppositions. It colors everything they find, and the conclusions they reach.
When I find myself discounting something out of hand without finding out whether it is or could be true, I stop, and walk away. I won't go back to the research until I can clear my mind of the predisposition to a certain conclusion. Try it sometime.
I've caught myself doing bad research several times, and I've been wrong in my preconceived notion at least as often as I've been right. I started out stopping when I found the information I WANTED. Wrong way to go about it. Find the information you DON'T want, then find the rest. Do it that way and you'll be right about 80% of the time, and the other 20% you'll either have been real close, or you'll find there was information you couldn't find the first time. You learn just as much, if not more, when you LOSE and arguement. And I've lost plenty.
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But why do you think you are special in:
"The thing is, I do not go looking for information to prove my point, I'm not searching for one thing and disregarding everything else"
Or why do you think others do not do this? How can you know this, do you look over people's shoulders when they read their reference books or talk to ww2 pilots? Is it because your research may have led you to a different conclusion?
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Originally posted by hazed-
captain virgil, (now isnt that the pilot of thunderbirds 2?)
Ive tried to tell you why i think what you spout is nonsense and gave you one of many books written by REAL WW2 veterans, easily verifyable by buying the book i have given you the title and author of but you choose to try to claim you have some kind of inside information.Well Im asking you to verify your so called veteran email pals.And listing their names isnt going to cut it.Seems to me the internet is full of people who realy do believe the bs they spout.I havent seen you refer to any book or author or veteran or anything else.Nothing we can check up on or read apart from the odd WB web site created by similar fictitious 'Captains'.Its all roadkill made up by those who have had years of practice and quite obviously we wouldnt be able to compete with it, nor would we want to or we would appear to be as full of crap as you do.
I havent sided with anyone on this thread if you would care to read what ive posted.I have merely given you published figures and quotes from published books.More than what you have i might add.Your opinion counts for nothing for me unless you can prove to me you were there or are a writer of some note.My guess is you are a 'armchair' gameplayer with a dillusion that he was somehow there.Your so called veteran email friends are probably a collection of a similar group of like minded sim pilots who write AAR's for their nights playing and decide they are good enough to be the real thing.
what a sad lot you are.I come here to fly in a game and i go elsewhere for an accurate picture of what happened during the war.Now unless you can somehow prove the books im reading are fictitious I suggest you give up trying to make out you know better than those said books.
I'll read the book Hazed, when I have time. I have plenty of reading to do, and not nearly enough time. I'm going to buy several more books this year, the one you suggested will likely be one of them. I never quit reading, nor do I quit asking questions. Not by a long shot have I read even 20% of what is available, so I've got a long way to go.
If you think I'm going to give out email addresses of pilots I know you are sadly mistaken. I will not be so foolish as to post someone else's email address (especially those of persons who are 80 years old and don't want to be spammed by a bunch of people who do not have any idea of what they are talking about) on any bulletin board, especially not on the Internet. It's hard to develop friends like them, and quite frankly, I'm not willing to risk being so rude and inconsiderate as to post their emaill addresses just to make you happy. Neither you, nor anyone else here is so important as to make me do something that foolish. I don't have an ego problem, so impressing you or anyone else isn't important to me.
Now, if you want to ask Widewing if I have the email address of guys like Art Heiden, Warren Bodie, Stan Richardson, Ken Lloyd, or several others, go ahead. In fact, Widewing gave me a couple of those addresses, as did Dr. Carlo Kopp. The pilots passed along a few more. I could care less what you choose to believe. I know the guys I said I know, and that's enough for me. I don't need the approval of a bunch of people on the Internet.
By the way, keep up the insults, you get smarter everytime you post them. Speaking of squeak toys, you're getting really good at it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But why do you think you are special in:
"The thing is, I do not go looking for information to prove my point, I'm not searching for one thing and disregarding everything else"
Or why do you think others do not do this? How can you know this, do you look over people's shoulders when they read their reference books or talk to ww2 pilots? Is it because your research may have led you to a different conclusion?
I know for a fact that some others do, I didn't invent the idea, never claimed to. But I've found that a lot of people don't. In fact, the majority don't, and if they did find facts that were in direct conflict with their conclusion, they will not even consider it.
I don't have time to look over anyone else's shoulder, and if I did have time, I'd find a better use for it.
I see a lot of the same thing, on every bulletin board, and in every newsgroup, this place ain't special. Like I said, I've done it too, but I've learned better. They haven't closed all the books on it yet, I still learn, I find new information and new sources, even in here.
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By the way, why is it everyone is all hung up on the Captain thing? It's just a name, from a fictional character in a movie. I took it because I am usually grounded, or shot down. It's a joke on me, because I'm barely a decent pilot, at best. As such, the character is an Allied POW in a Luftwaffe POW camp. Always plotting an escape, and always being a wiseguy. Jeez, you guys really get hung up on nothing.
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Captain fits in with your behavior, belive me. :D
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Ok youve answered it all for me virgil, sorry the captain part is sticking in my throat.
'I wont publish email adresses' ? who asked you to? The way you have now gone into what id call overemphasised refusal to 'post emails' which you wasnt asked to do anyhow makes me suspect you even more.
Theres many ways to prove that you are in correspondance.For one thing showing us a little of it that may persuade us it isnt fictitious.Perhaps giving some of their names and their backgrounds.Even telling us why on earth these people would want to converse with you, as in perhaps a published article? a book? You dont have to break any trusts merely by saying which particular historian you know.
anything basically other than 'I am in costant touch with veterans and historians alike'.
All im pointing out is any one of us could type that out and seeing as how these types of boards are full of idiots who do lie about things like this I'd like to see why we should think of you as anything but another one of them?.I havent seen a single item to make me think you are genuine at all.
Seems the best answer in here is 'Read a book' everytime i see dumb blanket statements about the airwar numbers because anyone who actually has anything worth hearing to the contrary will give you their sources of reference to disprove you or at least point you in the direction of where that information could be obtained.You have done none of this.
forgive me but when i suspect a fraud i tend to start name calling after im accused of being a 'nazi'.I would imagine naudet, being German it is even more offensive.What do you expect, praise?
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Originally posted by Glasses
You named a couple of instances were the LW had to resort, to doing that sort of thing. Hmmm. Could it be Simply put they used it as last resort? However the allies,the good tacticians they were, decided to commit another type of genocide but with bombs but again they won so there of course will not be a tribunals to try these "heroes" of WW2, for bombing Frankfurt, Berlin, Dresden, Hamburg and kill thousands of civilians, war is hell in deed but look at how the "evil Germans" conducted war against the All "good" allies, at least the "evil ones" had respect for the Genova convention,and behaved in foreign soil. Amazing, isn't it?
All too laughable how you try to revise history and continue in a vane effort to portray the Nazi's as some type of heroes. You seem to forget such incidents as Guernica or the bombings of Rotterdam and Warsaw. In just a couple of days of bombing, thousands of civilian Poles lost their lives during the Warsaw bombings.
And behaved on foreign soil? Is that why virtually all the occupied countries actively resisted the Nazis? Is that why Ukraine, which treated the Nazis at first as liberators, turned on them?
Ack-Ack
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Hazed and the rest all you need to do is go back and read the post and see who the ones are that start the insults. Look at Cap'n's response to my last post (which may have been a bit much but I wont edit it or apologize for it) all he post is lies. He started the insults then lies about it. Its there for anyone to read.
He is in fact a liar so what ever he says is worth a grain of salt. He insults, then plays victim.
Ole' Cap'n is a complete clown and if I were you I wouldnt waste your time on him.
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Just for you, Hazed. The short list.
Captain Stan Richardson Jr. USAAF (Advanced P-38 instructor, P-51 pilot, veteran pilot of the 8th AF, and of Korea)
Captain Arthur Heiden USAAF (P-38 pilot, P-51 pilot, 8th AF, and also friend of Captain and later Major, Jack Ilfrey)
Captain Bill Safarik USAAF (P-38 pilot, now deceased)
Captain Bill Capron USAAF (P-38 pilot)
Lt Ken Lloyd USAAF (P-38 pilot, of the 475th Headhunters)
Warren Bodie noted author, former Lockheed engineer
Captain David Mason USAF F4 Phantom pilot and aircraft archeologist
Several of them I did some research on, and sent a very polite email to, and got plenty of responses, and that is where it began. There are at least a dozen or so others I have not talked to recently, and I've lost a bunch of email addresses by being so stupid as to only keep copies on my computer. Hell, I lost 5 years of research that way. Some of the others contacted me about research they were working on.
As far as being published, no I have not had anything published, I've done some research for one or two articles other people were writing, and nothing more. You do not have to be remarkable to get to know these guys, you just have to be intelligent, respectful, and polite. I've asked them to provide insight and information for people who've asked me to find information for them, and they've been extremely cooperative.
Wotan, prove it. Go ahead. Bring it on. You have no proof. I know it, you know, and everyone else knows it. Like I said, call names, hurl insults, and best of all, make threats, it looks good on you. You, are a classic.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Or why do you think others do not do this? How can you know this, do you look over people's shoulders when they read their reference books or talk to ww2 pilots? Is it because your research may have led you to a different conclusion?
I don't think the squeak toys do it because I have watched them sideslip every single fact presented with sources. They don't point out errors or provide their own documentaion..they IGNORE it.
Several folks have posted #s of available allied fighters and the source for the numbers. These numbers have been wildly at odds with the numbers the sueakers are presenting. In every case they press on without addressing decrepancies.
Also when looking for data primary source ( and surviving WWII pilot IS such ) is always more reliable than 2cnd, 3rd or later generation hearsay as are authors that can be communicated with. Why you ask? Because decrepancies can be QUESTIONED.
"You say x in your book, but this book says y. How do you account for that?"
So yes his communicated WITH these people DOES give him a leg up.
DD
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Just for you, Hazed. The short list.
You might check out Bigweek NG. Some cool discussions (and a lot of flames) there:)
DD
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Originally posted by Naudet
No Seeker, the point in this discussion is that the allied escorts were not truly outnumbered in mid 1943 allthought there numbers looked pretty small on paper compared to the fighters the LW had to defend the German Reich on paper.
I could try to analyse why the LW lost both the BoB and the Battle of the Reich, but that would take a huge answer, that doesnt relate to this thread.
Thus far, as DD observed, no one has addressed the numbers I provided in an earlier post. Those numbers show that the Allied escorts, throughout the second half of 1943, were outnumbered. I think we're probably all familiar with the tactics used by the US at the time, which meant that the Germans would seldom, if ever, encounter anything larger than a 48-plane US fighter group in one place at any given time. Somehow I've missed where the reverse was proven.
And I'd love to see your wall of text on why the Luftwaffe lost the air war, Naudet. I'm sure others would be interested, too.
- oldman
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I did not think I'd need a disclaimer explaining a twist on the Blue Bros "Illinois Nazis'" comment mixed with the counting issues of Floridians.
Ah see your more clever then myself, I guess.
I dont watch much tv / movies etc but after hearing Nazi this and that in all these threads I'd had enough. I dont tend to pay much attention to the "cryptic" meaning behind folks posts. I had left these threads after it was clear most of you werent reading the replies just spewing off and repeating the same stuff and over.
I am not going to continuely repeat myself so I would suggest you re-read each thread. Or dont thats up to you.
I do think that it may be best if when arguing your point that you stick to the topic or at the very least dont assume that everyone that doesnt agree with you must be a "nazi" or "nazi apologist".
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bah looks like ,,Captain america something,, ==== citabria ????????? all the crap around p 38 miracle :D :p
yup i em luwftwobel i sux and i whine and i called MINUS :p
ups have to :edit , maybe not fester alias <> maybe just a ex AW player who mising AW super P38 ????
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It's not all that hard to figure out when the agenda is dropped and the brain is engaged.
Originally posted by Wotan
I dont tend to pay much attention to the "cryptic" meaning behind folks posts. edit/correct: I don't tend to pay much attention.
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And the "cryptic" phrase insinuated in the above post is:
mindless agenda
You're welcome!
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Just for you, Hazed. The short list.
Captain Stan Richardson Jr. USAAF (Advanced P-38 instructor, P-51 pilot, veteran pilot of the 8th AF, and of Korea)
Captain Arthur Heiden USAAF (P-38 pilot, P-51 pilot, 8th AF, and also friend of Captain and later Major, Jack Ilfrey)
Captain Bill Safarik USAAF (P-38 pilot, now deceased)
Captain Bill Capron USAAF (P-38 pilot)
Lt Ken Lloyd USAAF (P-38 pilot, of the 475th Headhunters)
Warren Bodie noted author, former Lockheed engineer
Captain David Mason USAF F4 Phantom pilot and aircraft archeologist
Several of them I did some research on, and sent a very polite email to, and got plenty of responses, and that is where it began. There are at least a dozen or so others I have not talked to recently, and I've lost a bunch of email addresses by being so stupid as to only keep copies on my computer. Hell, I lost 5 years of research that way. Some of the others contacted me about research they were working on.
As far as being published, no I have not had anything published, I've done some research for one or two articles other people were writing, and nothing more. You do not have to be remarkable to get to know these guys, you just have to be intelligent, respectful, and polite. I've asked them to provide insight and information for people who've asked me to find information for them, and they've been extremely cooperative.
Wotan, prove it. Go ahead. Bring it on. You have no proof. I know it, you know, and everyone else knows it. Like I said, call names, hurl insults, and best of all, make threats, it looks good on you. You, are a classic.
ok looks respectable on the surface. and I truelly hope you are telling the truth about these contacts.Judgeing by the fact you lost '5 years research' you have indeed read more than i have because i havent done anything more than read what id estimate as some (maybe) 50-60 books or so on WW2.Probably 20 or so of those concerning the air war.But I still find it difficult to understand why you insist allies were always outnumbered?
Like i have stated from what ive read it swayed back and forth in local airbattles literally from day to day.virgil you would claim that what you have said in here is what these particular veterans you have listed would agree with? or at least you have gathered from what they have told you?
I never once disputed the numbers given for the P38s and other fighters numbers, what i actually posted was some info on what i had.Which was a good indication of 190's.I added that i thought 60 (mentioned in another post) was rather conservative considering the numbers i had for 190s alone.I gave you a quote from a Veteran who in his own published words summed up the air battles over Europe as a meat grinder that through attrition gradually gave the allies the edge.Is it really so hard to accept that LW flyers , having flown for some 6(?) years before 1943 in various campaigns might have had the edge on what were essentially green pilots from the US? forgive me if i have this wrong but i wasnt aware that America had experienced (combat hardened)pilots to put up against the Luftwaffe in 1943 apart from those that volenteered to serve with the RAF or the flying tigers etc.
What i find astounding is that im called a nazi for pointing out what i find blindingly obvious.
Also another point brought up here by Oed:
'Thus far, as DD observed, no one has addressed the numbers I provided in an earlier post. Those numbers show that the Allied escorts, throughout the second half of 1943, were outnumbered. I think we're probably all familiar with the tactics used by the US at the time, which meant that the Germans would seldom, if ever, encounter anything larger than a 48-plane US fighter group in one place at any given time. Somehow I've missed where the reverse was proven.'
This isnt quite how you phrased it oed. What you claimed/implied was that the USAAF was always outnumbered and won despite fighting overwhelming odds.Implying it was always this way.Oversimplifying all the different types of engagements.True glassess did the same with his 10:1 figure which i have struggled to find in my references but i have read accounts where the Germans were mauled by huge escort numbers whilst climbing to engage the bombers.If you had have said just/only in early 43 id have whole heartedly agreed with you for the main reason that most of the time what escorts the b17s did have (p47s/spitfires)did not hardly ever engage with the LW bomber interceptors because they simply waited for them to turn back before attacking the bombers.Yes in this instance the LW outnumbered the escorts because they werent there were they.It was the REASON there was such a demand FOR long range escorts.The bombers were mauled when they were alone.When the escorts could keep with the bombers the LW was essentially finished.
If you read the numbers for any single zone the paper numbers dont always apply.Admittedly the way some have gone about phrasing this is easily taken as flat statements which i dont always agree with but i think they DO have a point.
This doesnt mean they didnt have some successes after this date though, as any history book can tell you, and as i said now and then the escorts were not always there in the right place.
you fail to accept and i think you are doing so only to further the arguements/namecalling that the numbers of LW fighters ordered to engage the fighters and the number ordered to engage the bombers DOES affect the battles. (essentially 190a8s,110s,410s,ju88s attacked bombers whilst 109s GENERALLY tried to divert or destroy the escort).I realise thats an oversimplification but it seems i am talking to simpletons from what ive seen in terms of handsomehunked insults.Claiming these things doesnt make me a nazi.You can read about it in all types of accounts from American to British to German.
From what ive seen everyone is just focusing on who is saying things and not always what they are saying.too eager to snap at someone for making an input like the suggestion that a fighter attacking a bomber is more vulnerable to an escort than a fighter attacking the escort alone.would anyone care to deny this?
that was the point being made i thought.Not that there was 'never' a fighter that attacked an escort plane.That would be ludicrus.
Anyway, virgil,back to the veterans list, I'd like to see some accounts from these guys listed if they allow you to post them.Any AARs i find interesting.Perhaps Capt Virgil you could post some that concern this very thing we are discussing? you seem so positive about it so why not show us all why you are?
P.s. heres some very small clips fromcomers book:
september 16th:
'The escort flew criss cross patterns above us for an hour and nothing happened.Then the navigator spotted trouble.
"navigator to crew,109's eleven oclock low-looks like about 50 of them"
Reliable Jerry had timed the range of the escort perfectly and approached the formation at the time the 47's would have to turn back.When the thunderbolts were gone the enemy interceptors pulled up to our altitiude'
November 3rd:
'We'll pick up 50 p47's at the coast on the way in.But the big news is we have P38s with us over the target'
There were whoops of joy! We were completely unaware that P38's had arrived in England until that day.The lockheed Lightning was powered by two liquid cooled engines and had a double tail boom.Its main feature was long range and strong contruction.Fighting characteristics were good, but not great.It had performed well in North African campaign against German aircraft, but how would it stack up against the rarified air of 25 to 30 thousand feet, against the best pilots the enemy could muster, was yet to be determined.But even a fair performance on those long penetrations, with the rocket menace hovering in the background, would be a tremendous help.There was no doubt that they could easily handle the rocket carrying fighters with those awkward chutes hanging under each wing.'
it goes on later:
'Turret to crew those germans got a big surprise coming.P38's at four oclock high'
I watched a P38 lead plane pick out a target and go into a steep dive.To my surprise the p38 caught a blast of fire from somewhere and broke into two peices and fell away in flames.The other p38s pulled back up and decided to look things over a bit more carefully.
"Navigator to co pilot"
"go ahead"
"Did you see what happened to that P38?"
"he got caught by a 109 he never saw-it'll take a while but they'll learn to use the P47 tactics-get careless with those 109s an they'll blow your bellybutton off"
German and American fighters were evenly matched in numerical strength.I noticed that 38's seemed to fight in elements of two,while P47s used elements of four.But the 38's did better than i expected on their first encounter with the more experienced foes.'
like i said read the book , its superbly written.Please dont read ANYTHING into these clips fromthe book.I merely typed out the first references to enemy numbers and the p38s etc i found. Im not implying one way or another about whether this guy (an engineer) knew the whole ins and outs of p38s etc.(sheesh we have to have disclaimers now!)
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arlo always the clown, he referenced some tv show in an attempt at wit. It may have been funny to those of you who seen the show hes talking about.
It means nothing at all to me.
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Originally posted by Wotan
arlo always the clown, he referenced some tv show in an attempt at wit. It may have been funny to those of you who seen the show hes talking about.
It means nothing at all to me.
Dammit! Get your priorities straightened out, man! If the German people had of watched the Blues Brothers back in the late twenties then Hitler wouldn't have had as many sales of Mein Kampf! Or is that the point? ;)
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Well, I wasn't gonna say anything, as this thread has degraded into a hopeless mess, but........
Fellas, it is all a matter of perspective. To the LW pilots, it would have appeared they WERE outnumbered when you add up the total force of bombers AND escorts.
The Allied fighter pilots had an opposite view, that of seeing more enemy fighters in the air to intercept the buffs than there were escorts.
It would appear that the raw Allied numbers were not as important as the correlation of forces, i.e. the ratio of escorts:bombers, at least from an Allied viewpoint. Say you send out 48 fighters to escort 300 bombers, and you run into 120 LW fighters. "Dang, we were outnumbered by at least 2 to 1, maybe even 3 to 1."
Now, those same 120 LW pilots see 300 bombers and those same 48 Allied fighters, and they are gonna say, "We were outnumbered almost 3:1 today."
Who is correct? Both? Neither?
I say both were correct, at least from their individual points of view.
The Allied escort pilots see themselves as the defenders against the LW interceptors, and they categorize themselves as 48 vs 120, they don't consider the bombers as part of the aerial fight, more like the bombers are their flock of sheep to be defended against the LW interceptors, the wolves if you will.
The LW pilots see the entire force of 348 planes as the threat that must be dealt with, not just the fighters, not just the bombers; from their point of view, hell yes they are outnumbered.
I wish the partisan side taking would stop. I can see posts from each side here that would provoke flaming responses. Come on folks, this is history we are talking here, and is not something we can change.
I'm gonna stop now, before someone accuses me of taking sides, and I wanna be clear that I am not. But I do want to stress one point, or at least my own opinion on some of these pilot accounts. Just because a pilot has a book published does NOT make him unfallable. I have talked to several pilots who have not published anything, and their experiences are just as real and authoritative as anything Johnson, Gabreski, Rall, or Galland ever said. They just keep it private and share their memories amongst themselves. Remember, a pilot's memories and recollections are just that, HIS OWN memories, and in the end, he speaks for no one but himself.
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Hazed,
If I lead you to think I considered the pilots of the Luftwaffe to be inferior, then you misunderstood me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've stated for years that, especially in the case of the 20th and 55th, they were not only green, but so was their command staff. Stan and Art both complained about lack of leadership and experience at times, and confidence at other times. On the other hand, the Luftwaffe pilots were experienced, battle hardened, and talented. On the squadron level they were fairly well lead.
However, between October of 1943 and February of 1944, and especially in October and November of 1943, the deep penetration escorts were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the Luftwaffe. Most often, the best the escorts could do was 80% strength at take off, and early returns accounted for the loss of as much as 50% of that strength. On any given mission, the entire available deep penetration escort in October and November consisted of the above mentioned 80% of ONE FIGHTER GROUP. That's a fact. Entire 200 to 400 bomber groups were covered by as few as 50 fighters when they were actually IN Germany. These same 50 planes flew the ENTIRE mission. They had enough fuel for 5 minutes of combat at 100% throttle, any more than that and the best they could hope for was a swim in a cold English Channel. The P-38s most often flew from the WEST side of England, forcing them to fly longer than any other group.
Beginning in February, the numbers BEGAN to become more equal. Finally, the P-51s were arriving in strength, the P-47s gained longer legs, and more P-38s arrived. However, both the P-38s and the P-51s were still experiencing teething problems, and they were still tied to close escort. Only when the escorts were released to engage the Luftwaffe on their own terms, and when escort duty was assigned in stages, allowing the escorts to work in shifts on each mission, did the end begin to come quickly. The idea that there were suddenly overwhelming numbers of Allied fighters is false. Only in April did the number of P-51s deployed to Europe even equal that of the P-38s. There was still a serious shortage of drop tanks, especially for the P-47s.
There was a serious shortage of well trained replacement pilots, and they were often sent to the wrong units. Art said it was not at all uncommon to get replacement pilots who had never even sat in a P-38, nevermind flown one. Trained P-38 pilots were often sent to P-51 or P-47 equipped units.
There was even a lingering problem with poor fuel quality that caused extreme difficulty with both the P-38 and the P-51. Fouled plugs, rough engines, blown head gaskets and cracked heads (those last two are FATAL to a P-51, a cooling system problem meant a P-51 had a very few minutes to fly under power) blown up intercoolers, kicked rods, and burnt valves, were all COMMON problems. Only after Doolittle took over did the fuel issue get resolved, and then only because Doolittle was a Shell employee in his civilian career.
Contrary to popular belief, the 8th AF spent as much time shooting itself in the foot as it did shooting down the Luftwaffe. The list of mistakes made by the 8th AF and even higher staff is longer than anyone cares to recount.
Back to your first post that began this whole thing. The first glaring error I saw in what you quoted was the fact that the Luftwaffe pilot thought the P-51 was more manueverable and a better climber than the P-38 showed he did not know his opponent well. In fact, neither is true, and the P-38 was actually faster at higher altitudes. I'm not saying the whole book is wrong or without merit, I'm just saying that the first quote is an opinion that is in fact just that, an opinion, easily refuted by facts. I hope to be able to read the book sometime soon, I'm sure there is valuable information in it.
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Originally posted by hazed-
What I find quite repulsive is this constant 'we had the best planes, best pilots, best this, best that,' crap you people keep spewing.
The USAAF had the best pilots and the best planes.
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"The first glaring error I saw in what you quoted was the fact that the Luftwaffe pilot thought the P-51 was more manueverable and a better climber than the P-38 showed he did not know his opponent well. In fact, neither is true, and the P-38 was actually faster at higher altitudes."
As much as I hate to contradict you, the LW pilot was pretty much right if we're talking about late '43/early '44 here. At combat altitudes--around 25-30K--the P-51B would outrun and outclimb the P-38J's, and was generally more maneuverable (even ignoring that it was harder to get max maneuverability out of the 38 than the 51).
The thing is the P-51 got f***ed up when the builders slapped a different engine into it--the engine critical altitude was reduced for some god-unknown reason--and at 30K the plane lost quite a bit of speed and over 1000 FPM off its climbrate for just a modest increase at low altitudes. Whoever was in charge (War Production Board?) kept screwing up our fighters right up to the end of the war.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
...Whoever was in charge (War Production Board?) kept screwing up our fighters right up to the end of the war...
those moron shot down the P-38K because they didn't want to stop Lockheed's factories for a couple weeks
(http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Xp-38k.jpg)
jerks
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html
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Well, there is not much reason to start same old discussion again. Here is a thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26424) which contains pretty much information about the P-51 and P-38. And sources are claimed and mostly easily available, same can't be said about those P-38 fantasies...
gripen
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there now, no mention of Lufftwabble or Luftwhiner or nazi etc and the discussion becomes one i enjoy participating in!
J_A_B thanks for mentioning that p51b vs p38j stuff. Something i wasnt quite aware of as most of my reading concerns RAF or LW info.Seems to me youre right in that we cant really always tell the context of the quotes from the various flyers.Perhaps had someone asked immediately after 'and what about over 25k' his view would have been different.Who knows? perhaps he indeed had little knowledge and was wrong, we can never tell.
All i did was merely type out some info from a book i was reading and throw it out to the BB community.
Capt, as you say, and from what ive read you are right that the American airmen were outnumbered the majority of the time but as you have pointed out the teething troubles of their machines was matched on the LW side.They too had horrendous troubles with parts,weapon systems etc etc.Im now pretty sure we all got off on the wrong foot here.And i know who i blame for the great majority of these threads that turn into name calling drivel.Its a small band of people who seem to take great pleasure in insulting people.
Id just like to state that in my opinion the LW failed miserably to do what my own country managed which is defeat a larger force with a superbly trained airforce.The battle of britain was similar in many ways to the air war that came only reversed.What i find annoying though is the dismissal of the ability of many of the LW flyers and machines.They like you said, were undoubtedly good pilots and whatever the reason they failed it should never be forgotten.If only to remind us that we , the brits and americans and others , faced a superbly trained,experienced and equiped air force.I have no problem reading all about what they achieved because deep down i realise the better they were the better we had to be to beat them.
When i see this over the top praise of machines we had, the constant belittleing of what they had, and im sorry but it does always seem to be Americans talking about the p51 or p38 or p47 etc, it tends to drive me up the wall :).I can accept a love for the machines because i too love the spitfire etc but its the blatent dismissal of others and the constant claim that only these machines won the war etc.It simply isnt true.They did help push the war further and further inland but the bombing campaign, just as the land war alone did not win the war.It was the whole thing, including in no small part what the Russians did,that eventually defeated the Germans.
ok i got a bit too deep but i think you understand what i mean.These idiots who come into these boards shouting 'the p51 won the war' really are the biggest fools our countries produce. :D
We should be able to listen to all information we find with an open mind.I for one have started to change my mind about the strength of the p38, for instance, through noticing more and more references to it being structurally sound and strong and so it should be for those who have a wrong idea of other aircraft.
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btw after reading that thread again that gripen pointed to above a couple of posts, sheeeeeeesh capt virgil you know TOO much about the p38!! lol you need to get out in the fresh air :)
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No way. Everyone knows a pair of B-29s won the war. :D
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Originally posted by hazed-
ok looks respectable on the surface. and I truelly hope you are telling the truth about these contacts.
Stan Richardson, Art Heiden and Warren Bodie are all personal friends of mine. Stan and Art have contributed their time and photos to several magazine articles I have had published. Warren and I have co-authored numerous magazine pieces.
I can vouch for Virgil knowing each of them.
Heiden states, "I remember an amusing incident, Apr '44. We had run into a real mess and the Luftwafe was bouncing everybody. My flight had just been bounced, did the break, and the Luftwaffe kept on going. While I was on guard, I saw this other flight get bounced. While the rest of that flight did a halfhearted break, old tail-end Charlie's P-38 emitted a cloud of exhaust smoke (thought he had been hit), saw his nose come up and wrap up his turn. Before I could think, old #4 was in the lead of that flight. Impressed the hell out of me. Turned out to have been Fiebelkorn -- he was off to a good start."
And:
"Nov. 43, P-38Hs and P-51Bs beginning ops, find themselves in a climate environment none had experienced before and a superior opponent with 10 times the numbers. Forced to take the bombers to, over and withdraw them. Lucky to get half of what they had to the target after aborts/early returns. Sometimes as few as four fighters made it to target under attack continuously going and coming. Five minutes of METO power was planned into the profile. Meaning that if you fought over five minutes you wouldn't make it home. Remember, you were being bounced continuously."
So much for the Luftwaffe not attacking the escorts.....
My regards,
Widewing