Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Dingbat on September 24, 2002, 07:25:20 AM
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So you eject from a plane, on your way down the person makes another pass and shoots you dead. I know the germans did this in WWII. Is this generally accepted behaviour is AH?
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Well since it's a game people don't tend to care about their virtual lives as much I figure.
At one point I used to get bent about getting shot in my chute but then I lightened up and now I shoot em for fun.
I guess whether or not it is acceptable depends on if Aces High is more a simulation or a game for you
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Good Point, I guess I get a little to immersed in the action. I guess I'll get over it. I take refuge in the fact it took this guy 10 minutes to shoot down a severly damaged b-17 :) and almost made him fly into a mountain.
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They make sure you don't end up spying by sending you to the tower:)
I encourage chute shooting, it wastes the nme's ammo:) Just wait I understand we may be getting .45's to shoot back!!
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P-51 drivers, La-7 drivers and Spit drivers are all valid targets in my book.
Although usually, I save my ammo for their myriad of friends still flying around.
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I have 3 or 4 kills in my chute this tour from guys trying to shoot me down in it. I think it is so funny when that happens...and couldn't care less if they manage to kill me.
I try and wait until the last possible second to pull the ripchord..that way the chute-shooters must be very careful that they don't auger in. I am getting very good at this fine art.
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I've been known to make single passes on chutes, particularly when I'm already RTB.
Slightly off topic, last night I was going to do an end-run on Bish HQ, which required flying over Rookville. P51 comes out, kills one lanc, wounds pilot. He goes home smoking.
Spit comes out, dies a horrible death.
Second lanc explodes due to wounded pilot.
F4U comes out, dances with me at 2.5 to 3.6 range for 20 minutes, but will not close up. Finally the third plane blows up due to wounded pilot.
Fine. Now I'm annoyed with the Rooks. Up in an LA5, go kill the nearest F4U which I suspect was the same one that was dancing around my Lanc (don't think he was a real experienced pilot; he died stupid for extending without checking his low six).
Play around with a P51 and sundry other enemy aircraft, finally get smoked by a 190. On the way back to base I run across a chute. I'm still annoyed with Rooktown, so I took a shot (missed) at him on my way by. No big deal. I won't strain myself going after chutes, but if the opportunity presents itself...
It's quite common to have people strafing me while I'm hanging. Bish got me last night after I ran into one of their raids. Again, no big deal. I'm pretty good at timing my open so I don't hang for very long :)
By the way Rooks, that was a fun fight last night. :D
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Originally posted by Dingbat
So you eject from a plane
no one ejects from a plane in AH. your jet-sim dweebism is showing.
:D
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Originally posted by Dingbat
I know the germans did this in WWII.
Filthy Murdering Nazi's :eek:
-Sikboy
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In WW2, pilots from all sides engaged engaged in chute-shooting at some time.
In AH, well, uh, yeah. Pilots on the ground can serve as controllers for their side. Pilots in the air make nice targets, and shooting someone under canopy can have the effect of pissing them off, with often very satisfying results for the next several sorties as the shootee tries to attack from a disadvantage.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Filthy Murdering Nazi's :eek:
-Sikboy
Noble Allied (US) pilots NEVER shoot chutes?
:rolleyes:
Yeah right...
Anyway, chute shooting in Ah is totally waisting of ammo, nothing else.
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Something to keep in mind, although I may be wrong, is that after you jump from the plane and BEFORE you open your chute, you're still showing your aircraft's icon. And since you're not smoking or showing damage, you momentarily appear to be a healthy enemy plane (although you're going straight down of course), so you're gonna get shot at. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally posted by Xjazz
Noble Allied (US) pilots NEVER shoot chutes?
:rolleyes:
Yeah right...
That was my point lol. Sorry, been reading the chute shooting/plane toughness/superthread over in the A&V forum, got caught up in the tribalism!
-Sikboy
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shooting the cowardly bailers at the end of their chutes is good gunnery practice and as you can see.... quite a skill.
I like to wait to shoot them until they are allmost touching the ground so that they have the longest possible time to reflect on their cowardly action.
what kinda wuss, score potato would bail?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
what kinda wuss, score potato would bail?
lazs
ME :) Just cause I'd bail in real life too! Bear in mind, if you think I'm riding my ride into the dirt, you must be nucking futz. Real or otherwise.
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I get a kick out of trying look around and see the planes attempting to shoot me. You don't often get a chance to really take the time to see what the planes look like from the front. Enjoy it while the chance is there.
For myself, I don't bother with chutes unless they are very high. In that case I hose them down out of mercy if I don't have to go to far out of my way.
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Originally posted by Xjazz
Noble Allied (US) pilots NEVER shoot chutes?
:rolleyes:
Yeah right...
Anyway, chute shooting in Ah is totally waisting of ammo, nothing else.
I guess in my allied pride, I'd never considered the other side of the coin. Though I'd love to see some linkage for informative reasons.
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In any case the Americans actually started the whole murdering pilots while hanging in their parachutes when they arrived in the ETO. It wasn't common practice for the LW to do that as they thought it was despicable not only that considering they were greatly outnumbered it would have been foolish and not practical trying to kill a parachuted pilot when you have 19 other enemy aircraft on your ass.
Bomber crews and fighters pilots a like took pot shots at the chutes. The Americans were the murdering bastards in any case. But of course that little dirt is shun under the rug of history.
Bring it on squeakes!
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Originally posted by HFMudd
For myself, I don't bother with chutes unless they are very high. In that case I hose them down out of mercy if I don't have to go to far out of my way.
perfect chance to get a cold one :p
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Originally posted by Glasses
blah blah blah
Lol Glasses, maybe you should have read to the bottom of the post before replying?
-Sikboy
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I think a lot of the chute-shooting is done to stimulate whines on Ch 1. for their entertainment value.
Either that or just to remind everyone that this is indeed a game.
I guess if HT had any nobility, honor, respect, character, etc. he'd have just made chutes bulletproof. Right?
But since he didn't......... we get these threads.
Let's march on the Bastille in grapevine demanding bulletproof chutes!!!!
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Originally posted by Dingbat
So you eject from a plane, on your way down the person makes another pass and shoots you dead. I know the germans did this in WWII. Is this generally accepted behaviour is AH?
Not only is this accepted by all but a few whiners, it's expected. :D Chutes provide a use to the .30 class weapons on many planes, and are often good for a whine on ch1.
Seeing as you lose virtually nothing by dying in a chute, and gain little by bailing, it's really only a psychological effect. Who cares about comparing it to the real world? In the real world someone dies, in here, you just get to shoot them down again sooner.
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In AH, well, uh, yeah. Pilots on the ground can serve as controllers for their side. Pilots in the air make nice targets, and shooting someone under canopy can have the effect of pissing them off, with often very satisfying results for the next several sorties as the shootee tries to attack from a disadvantage.
Generally, you can assume that someone who bails and falls as far as they think they can and still get the chute to open is bailing to get back and take off again; the ones that bail and immediately pop their chute, particularly over a hotly-contested field, I generally consider to have given notice of 'intention to FAC', and deserve to be shot up ASAP.
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This one is fairly simple to work out, if you struggled to get 3 or 4 kills and then got shot down after a hard fight, and bailed wouldn't you want to be able to land your chute safely? It's a Golden rule issue, treat your fellow pilots in the manner that you would wish to be treated. Also, the angry whines that result are never worth it and make everyone else's life miserable.
BTW - I can almost stomach it when the guy who flew my tail off and shot me to pieces shoots down my chute. What is a little more irritating though is when after a good fight some dweeb who wasnt even near us comes over to use my chute as target practice.
- SEAGOON
PS: And yes, as the WORST pilot in AH, I do have a vested interest in this. ;-)
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Originally posted by Toad
Let's march on the Bastille in grapevine demanding bulletproof chutes!!!!
Hold on just a minute there Herr Toad. If I'm gonna go marchin on any Bastille, Grapevine or elsewhere, I need a better cause.
I want the guy in the chute to issue an audible moan and scream as I fly by him like they used to do in AW. Now there's a cause worth marchin for.
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If the guy in the chute is/was doing dweeby stuff, if at all convenient, he shall die (Especially a chute sitting on ground watching enemy planes)
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I still don't understand what makes the chutes so volatile and explosive? I'd rather see a flailing body dangling in freefall from a shredded chute after I pepper it with lead....or a spray of red across the front of my windscreen if my aim is really good :)
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To add one more piece of detail, I bailed then popped my chute at about 500-1000 agl. It wasn't like I was hanging out at 7k ft. Not to mention I was no where near a base. It being the first time someone shot me down in a chute I guess I was a little perturbed.
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Ah, the end of morality in the West. No one even seems bothered that:
A) In reality, shooting chutes is a cowardly and vile thing to do
B) The man in the chute is defenseless
C) This isn't exactly sportsmanlike behavior
I'm glad this is and blowing up totally non-combatant buildings as a game objective (churches, etc.) are the only war crime simulations available in the game, otherwise I shudder to think what else we'd be considering "fun." I'm just glad there isn't an Allgemeine SS sim out there yet...
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Filthy Murdering Nazi's :eek:
-Sikboy
Don't say that to Glasses, he might get his jack boots all scuffed up.
ack-ack
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if I'm ever tempted to bail out.. and actually open my chute..
please shoot me because it was a momentary lapse of reason and I would rather get back to the tower and re-up.
ok.. so there's my reason for shooting other chutes as well.. just providing a quick return to the game for the poor dweeb that forgot why he logged on.
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When I shoot a guy down and he comes across ch.1 with "hehe, I just knocked your hangar down", I'm gonna turn and bust a cap in his chute for good measure.
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Until innocent civilians running in terror beneath my hail of gunfire are implemented, chutes are the best target available.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
B) The man in the chute is defenseless
- SEAGOON
Perhaps HTC should address this? Give German pilots a machine pistol..allied pilots a tommy gun, etc..then the man in the chute won't be quite so defenseless.
LOL Fatty..
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In any case the Americans actually started the whole murdering pilots while hanging in their parachutes when they arrived in the ETO. It wasn't common practice for the LW to do that as they thought it was despicable
hmm...don't start wars unless you're prepared to get your bellybutton kicked?
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"How can you shoot the women, and children?"
"Easy! You just don't lead em so much! Ain't war hell! HA HA!"
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Your thread title is very misleading. I thought it was going to be about using lethal force on Peewee Hermin at the porno flick.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Ah, the end of morality in the West. No one even seems bothered that:
A) In reality, shooting chutes is a cowardly and vile thing to do
B) The man in the chute is defenseless
C) This isn't exactly sportsmanlike behavior
- SEAGOON
A. War is a cowardly and vile thing to do. Shooting at people ranks pretty high on those categories, also. My philosophy is the guy I didn't take down today may well recover and send my team mate home in a mason jar tomorrow. I'd rather not have to explain to his widow/mother/sister/etc why I could have saved his life and didn't.
B. Good. Defenseless enemys are my favorite kind. My personal religion considers a "fair fight" the ultimate sin. I don't enjoy killing people, but by $DIETY when I gotta do it I want to do so with as little danger to myself and my team as possible.
C. There's nothing sportsmanlike about getting shot at. Untill you've been there, done that, and still have the nightmares please STFU about "sportsmanlike" conduct under fire. See A above.
...or were you talking about the game? :D
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i avoid shooting chutes not because its honerable to but because the faster they die the faster there up i figure i should let them suffer and spend 5 minutes falling while i do evil things to there base.
and yes i DO bail out sometimes BUT rather than bailing right after my plane is flaming i wait till i get to 600-700 feet then bail out and immediatly open the chute (remember if your chute aint open before 500 ft your DEAD) then the people who do chute shoot have a very small amount of alt to attempt to destroy my chute (most chuteshoots are bnz attacks so looking down at a plane augering is always funny)
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Originally posted by Puck
B. Good. Defenseless enemys are my favorite kind. My personal religion considers a "fair fight" the ultimate sin. I don't enjoy killing people, but by $DIETY when I gotta do it I want to do so with as little danger to myself and my team as possible.
C. There's nothing sportsmanlike about getting shot at. D
As quoted by Mathman (who probably stole it from someone else)
"Fairness is for the Special Olympics....not AH!"
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Originally posted by Seagoon
This one is fairly simple to work out, if you struggled to get 3 or 4 kills and then got shot down after a hard fight, and bailed wouldn't you want to be able to land your chute safely? It's a Golden rule issue, treat your fellow pilots in the manner that you would wish to be treated. Also, the angry whines that result are never worth it and make everyone else's life miserable.
[/B]
I fully expect that, should I ever bail, someone else has every right to come along and blast me out of the sky as I hang helplessly like the wussy I am. I'm therefore following the Golden Rule when I do it to others.
Oh, and the angry whines are always worth it. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I kill chutes. I am going to hell. I don't think they are related. Maybe they are. Doesn't really matter though, I was going to hell anyways.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
A) In reality, shooting chutes is a cowardly and vile thing to do
[/B]
Aces High is a game. There is nothing cowardly or vile about shooting pixels.
B) The man in the chute is defenseless
[/B]
Aces High is a game. The man in the chute was not defenseless before he bailed. Maybe next time he'll reconsider his options.
C) This isn't exactly sportsmanlike behavior
[/B]
Aces High is a game, not a sport. It's not about fairness or sportsmanship; the only thing the other guy has done is cost you some points and sped up your trip to the tower.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Arfann
Your thread title is very misleading. I thought it was going to be about using lethal force on Peewee Hermin at the porno flick.
RoFLMAO, how you made that connection one will never know :)
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Personally, I don' t often shoot up a guy in his chute but every now and again, I will; especially if he bailed to avoid me or is sp ying at a field. FWIW, I don't care if someone shoots me in a chute, it just gets me back in the air that much quicker. Also, except for the statement above, shooting a chute wastes your ammo and I generally don't fly things with .30 caliber ammunition.
Just my quarters worth (ain't inflation a squeak);)
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i wait till i get to 600-700 feet then bail out and immediatly open the chute
You're clearing out of the combat area and trying to survive. It's the yahoos who get shot up at 5,000', bail, and pop their chute immediately so they get a birds'-eye view of the area to feed back to their buddies that you need to go after.
There is a simple solution to the problem of the chuteFAC (people who bail and then sit in their chute and on the ground playing forward air controller) -- as soon as you bail, you lose the ability to send or receive radio traffic (maybe keep receive, but definitely lose send) until you exit flight and are back in a tower. No radio send, no chuteFACs, and people will go back to bailing to survive a shootdown, rather than gaming the game to be able to use their better visibility to direct the battle after they bail.
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Personally, i don't shot chutes. The longer they hang there, is one less enemy to deal with. I wish more people would eject. Preferably from about 12k. That way they're outta the action for some time. :)
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2. What was the attitude towards enemy pilots in each theatre - hated Germans more than Japanese? Feared Japanese more than
Germans if captured? Which pilots seemed to have the better training?
A: We respected the German opposition. They were the enemy and our job was to kill them and they us, but I never felt hate. In the case of the Japanese we were fed lots of horror tales about their behaviour and were lectured by those who had had personal experience of their atrocities. We thoroughly disliked the Japs. and we adopted a no-holds-barred attitude to our combat. We would have shot them down in their parachutes but I never saw a Jap bail out.
excerpt from alan pearts interview on this bbs.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Ah, the end of morality in the West. No one even seems bothered that:
A) In reality, shooting chutes is a cowardly and vile thing to do
B) The man in the chute is defenseless
C) This isn't exactly sportsmanlike behavior
I'm glad this is and blowing up totally non-combatant buildings as a game objective (churches, etc.) are the only war crime simulations available in the game, otherwise I shudder to think what else we'd be considering "fun." I'm just glad there isn't an Allgemeine SS sim out there yet...
- SEAGOON
Speaking only for myself here but, what bothers me more Reverend is your apparent inability to differentiate a computer game from reality.
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And here we have one of the major cultural differences between the MA and the CT.
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Yep, historical pilots will shoot down chutes. It's realistic AND fun.
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For whats its worth BlueBaron in AW (many many many MANY years ago) used to compile a golden parachute award list every camp. The person with the most bailouts was....ummm....not looked up to. Even making the list was a disgrace:)
DD
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Originally posted by Fatty
Until innocent civilians running in terror beneath my hail of gunfire are implemented, chutes are the best target available.
I like the way this guy thinks.
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Originally posted by DeadDuck
Even making the list was a disgrace:)
DD
Ya, and you were on it :).
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Originally posted by DamnedBuzzard
Speaking only for myself here but, what bothers me more Reverend is your apparent inability to differentiate a computer game from reality.
I thank Whomever that my friends in the damned let me always kill the cult center at the town. It is my favorite symbolic thing to do.:}
Why does the the bailer wear that little explosive belt if its not so we can make him blowup?:rolleyes:
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Well...
They blow up real nice..
Stuff blowing up when I shoot it is why I'm here.
It took me awhile to figure out what that squishy sound was when hanging in my chute..
Well..
They blow up real nice....
and will continue too..
I have no shame..
...or have no shane ??
Well...
They blow up real nice..
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Originally posted by Miska
And here we have one of the major cultural differences between the MA and the CT.
You mean there is no chute shooting (say that really fast 100 times) in the CT?
'Cause my gunnery sucks and I need practice. :)
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No, in fact there is, but it is much less prevalent and taken much more seriously. For example, in a historical event recently (pretty much same people as in CT) one 880 FAA pilot was shot at in his parachute by a JG2 pilot.
The reason that we "care" about chute shooting, is that it actually has an effect on us. The Sierra Hotel board on the squadron's website shows our performance in historical events, minus our deaths.
While I think most of us recognize that shooting at parachutes is a historically realistic thing to do, we also understand that it is something serious. If one squadron starts doing it, we all stand to suffer (if not in our lives, at least in our stats). All I can say is: Check 6, JG2.
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Originally posted by Rotorian
Ya, and you were on it :).
Hah as if. Well actually yes. I was typically one of the ones on the honor list that had zero or 1 bail (disconects counted as bails)
DD
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All I can say is: Check 6, JG2.
You couldnt hang with jg2. Check 6 lol gimme a break the least experienced guy in my squad would whup you good and then shoot your chute so the rest of us could vulch you when try you to re-up.
If you see a red R on the nose of the 190 that just flamed you just ride it out. Then you wont have to worry about getting shot in your chute.
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Originally posted by DamnedBuzzard
Speaking only for myself here but, what bothers me more Reverend is your apparent inability to differentiate a computer game from reality.
Hi DamnedBuzzard,
My bad. I know I probably should never have gotten into this one. Having a discussion about the ethics of something in a forum with no absolute ethical standard is fairly impossible. I'll leave this one well alone after this - especially because I'm well aware that this makes a BBS designed for fun all too heavy and serious and for that I'm sincerely sorry.
But let me raise a couple of thoughts that I hope may provoke a thought or two. Shooting pilots parachuting from stricken aircraft is actually a violation of a quaint old document called the Geneva Convention. It was for activities like this (and machine-gunning people in life-rafts) that we tried and hung men at Nuremburg and even a few in Japan. We once accepted that this, along with things like strafing refugees, was a morally abhorent activity, even in wartime. These were considered acts of murder not war.
Yes, I'm aware this is just a simulation, and that these are "simulated murders and war crimes" and that there are far worse sims out there (rape, serial killing, theft, etc.) But there's an old saying, "character is what you are in the dark". Society exposes its soul through the things that its citizens enjoy doing when no-one else can see. We are in a sense more honest in the games we play, than in the way we act in the world. If we are honorable, and courageous, faithful, and fair, etc. in the dark, then we will be so in the light of day. But if we are nothing but vile, adulterous, vicious, rapacious, etc. in our fantasies, then at heart we are barbarians and it's our civility that is a sham.
Personally, I don't like to think what the long term effects of ever-more realistic games that nurture or promote evil behavior will be on our culture (especially in the case of children). I think only the naive would say that they'll be good.
Do what you will, but as for me, I don't want to shoot chutes, not in the games I play or in reality.
- SEAGOON
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Salute Wotan. See you up there :)
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One last log on the fire I forgot to mention. A friend of mine just returned to Egypt and told me that one of the most popular computer games in the country at present is Microsoft Flight Simulator. Want to know why? Because the current fad is using it to simulate flying fully loaded 757s and 767s into the WTC and other American landmarks.
- Seagoon
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I'll do a little ballbustin over it, but I'm not on a crusade to end virtual war atrocities:)
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Miska was kiddin most of my guys never bother shooting chutes(check our main scores) but we will happily vulch you :)
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Are the wheelchairs going to be in the next version?
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Originally posted by Wotan
Miska was kiddin most of my guys never bother shooting chutes(check our main scores) but we will happily vulch you :)
Nice try Wotan, but chute kills dont show up in scores.
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hmm thought it did,
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Originally posted by Miska
No, in fact there is, but it is much less prevalent and taken much more seriously. For example, in a historical event recently (pretty much same people as in CT) one 880 FAA pilot was shot at in his parachute by a JG2 pilot.
The reason that we "care" about chute shooting, is that it actually has an effect on us. The Sierra Hotel board on the squadron's website shows our performance in historical events, minus our deaths.
While I think most of us recognize that shooting at parachutes is a historically realistic thing to do, we also understand that it is something serious. If one squadron starts doing it, we all stand to suffer (if not in our lives, at least in our stats). All I can say is: Check 6, JG2.
I am a JG2 I not shot anyone in a chute in event, but hell yeah I have been KILLED in a chute in event. I didn't give it a second though. In events life and death is scored a great deal differently. Im sorry if Ace High does'nt conform with your internally contrived scoring methods - I guess we could petition HTC to immediately change (or you could adopt something that gets along with the way Aces High works - or better yet - have bail out training and keep your current system :) ).
Guys I don't like are the dweebs that zoom in suicide on a field (usually a typhoon country X ), ping as many people as possible, point nose into sky - bail - and wait for kills to be recorded. Those chutes will get many many bullets, and deservedly so. Then they not get a BAIL in stats, but a well deserved DEATH.
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no.. they only show how many times you died near a chute, where the chute got "credit." they don't show how many (if) chutes you've killed.
they might show, not sure, how many kills you got credit for while dangling in a chute.
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Doesn't do me any good to shoot a chute..I'm a bad shot and don't want to waste ammo or worse, not hit the chute.:D
So I don't do it. Doesn't bother me when I'm gunned in the chute, 'cause a lot of times they miss too...LOL, unless Fatty is around. But I don't ever recall having the honor of Fatty shooting my chute. For a while there, I would ride my downed plane into the ground...but sometimes would get a computer lockup when I did that, so now I bail just to avoid that. (Usually bail too late anyway and get killed.) If you're interested in your score, I don't think it makes a difference anyway whether you bail or ride it down. It counts as a kill for your opponent. Someone please correct me if I'm all wet.
On a related note Seagoon, I will say that on many towns being prepared for goons, the church building is often the last one standing. I always wondered why a religious structure was included in the town, that had to be destroyed to take a base. When this first came out, I almost posted about it, but figured someone else would, so I waited. I'm sure there are players who have issues with shooting up a church building in the game, ... myself included. It's a code matter that the ammo bunker (field object...not town object) doesn't have to be destroyed to capture a town. Seems like, if a church has to be there, it should not be destroyed as part of taking a base.
Has anyone else here thought about this? One of the things I do is straf towns and bases, but it seems the church building is left up a lot of times, and 8 out of 10 times, I have to straf it to prepare the town for goons. Almost gotten to the point where I get that first, cause I know the other guys won't do it. Why not place the church building on the field, or code it as a field object...similar to the ammo bunker? All.
Les
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Originally posted by Xjazz
Anyway, chute shooting in Ah is totally waisting of ammo, nothing else.
It's only a waste of ammo if you miss.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Miska
And here we have one of the major cultural differences between the MA and the CT.
CT chute kills are the best kind, much more satisfying than MA chute kills.
ack-ack
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For what else would I need 1800 rounds of 7.92 on my A5 ?
BTW it's funnier to shoot guys falling from the sky without the chute open :P
You should be able to fire at the chutes proper and thereby raise their rate of descent (holes). Then you could finely judge a mortal descent rate AND keep the guy enjoying the experience some more :eek:.
I'll also shoot chutes with mannable Ack. It's fascinating.
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Wotan,
Vulching is a completely different kettle of fish. We prefer to call it "field suppression", and we consider it a perfectly legitimate and historically accurate tactic. If you see 880 above your field, don't roll ;)
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I generally never shoot a chutes just because it never seemed worthwhile. However, I have never been offended by it either. Last night, I was on one of Rockstar's missions and we were capping a field for goons. With our goons ib NOE and several cons nearby who were closing on the field, a chute opens close to the town. Someone said kill the chute so he can't report the goons, and the died quickly.
While I probably want seek out a chute to kill, I will most definitely evaluate whether a chute is a threat from now on.
I love the idea of .45's to shoot back. :D I'll pull the cord at 20K if we get that.
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so.. to sumarize..
shooting chutes takes skill and daring.
shooting chutes is good gunnery practice.
shooting chutes irritates the "right" kind of people and will hopefully drive them into the ct.
anyone who bails probly didn't put up a very good fight in any case.
It makes a nice explosion.
There are no hospitals or orhanages to strafe.
It get's the coward back up faster so that you can shoot him down again.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Here is the real story because I'm the one who shot you down!
I had just taken off in a P-51B while a flight of 2, yes dingbat you were a flight of 2, B-17's had just dropped on my field. Dingbat was at about 12k so seeing as the P-51B takes a little time to climb up there I kept him at around 4k from me. I continued to climb up to about 16k and then closed the distance till I was directly overhead. Dingbat started shooting short bursts at me when I was 1.6k away and continued to fire at me durring all my passes.
It is apparent that dingbat has never been attacked by anyone other than someone climbing up his dead 6 or from a plane that has only machine guns. The P-51B has 4 .50's dingbat and not a whole bunch of those rounds in it either.
When I was in position directly over head I dove down at the remaining ai bomber first, after making my short run I continued in my dive for another thousand feet or so then pulled back up to altitude. On my second pass #2 bomber caught on fire and I knew it was only a matter of time till she blew so I concentrated on bomber #1.
To shoot down 2 B-17's in a P-51B without taking any damage from their offensive guns is very tough to do. And accomplishing that task in only 10 minutes is one heck of a job, I challenge you to even attempt to shoot down just 1 of my flight of B-17's dingbat!
Oh and I forgot to mention your subsequent 400+mph dives and 2 loops in a B-17. I was never in any danger of crashing into any mountain and you bailed directly in front of me. I just helped you get back to the tower in a more timely fashion which was good because I shot you down 3 more times that night.:D
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi DamnedBuzzard,
My bad. I know I probably should never have gotten into this one. Having a discussion about the ethics of something in a forum with no absolute ethical standard is fairly impossible. I'll leave this one well alone after this - especially because I'm well aware that this makes a BBS designed for fun all too heavy and serious and for that I'm sincerely sorry.
But let me raise a couple of thoughts that I hope may provoke a thought or two. Shooting pilots parachuting from stricken aircraft is actually a violation of a quaint old document called the Geneva Convention. It was for activities like this (and machine-gunning people in life-rafts) that we tried and hung men at Nuremburg and even a few in Japan. We once accepted that this, along with things like strafing refugees, was a morally abhorent activity, even in wartime. These were considered acts of murder not war.
Yes, I'm aware this is just a simulation, and that these are "simulated murders and war crimes" and that there are far worse sims out there (rape, serial killing, theft, etc.) But there's an old saying, "character is what you are in the dark". Society exposes its soul through the things that its citizens enjoy doing when no-one else can see. We are in a sense more honest in the games we play, than in the way we act in the world. If we are honorable, and courageous, faithful, and fair, etc. in the dark, then we will be so in the light of day. But if we are nothing but vile, adulterous, vicious, rapacious, etc. in our fantasies, then at heart we are barbarians and it's our civility that is a sham.
Personally, I don't like to think what the long term effects of ever-more realistic games that nurture or promote evil behavior will be on our culture (especially in the case of children). I think only the naive would say that they'll be good.
Do what you will, but as for me, I don't want to shoot chutes, not in the games I play or in reality.
- SEAGOON
Sorry Reverend but your argument still holds no water. While character may be "what you are in the dark" there is still a difference between that and a game. I'm surprised you can't grasp that. What you do in the dark is still real. Real people suffer from your bad actions. This is pixels on a phosphor screen. No one suffers. End of story.
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Originally posted by VWE001
blah blah blah
I'm not arguing the fact that you shot the plane down, It was just a question about the mannerism in which you shot me in a chute. In flying for about 3 weeks now you were the first to do that, needless to say i wasn't exactly expecting it. Your quote about the "real story" I don't recall lying about anything i said. And what about the poor mommy comments :rolleyes: and from an external view it did look like you came awefully close to hitting the mountain but who care, not exactly a lot of depth perception in AH.
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Originally posted by Anchor
I generally never shoot a chutes just because it never seemed worthwhile.
Shooting chutes is sort of like sex. If you're not enjoying it, your probably not doing it right.
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I only shoot spit dweebs, 262 dweebs (only in h2h), and n1k dweebs...that way, i'll encourage them to fly in a more challenging plane that wont end up with me shooting them in their chutes
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi DamnedBuzzard,
My bad. I know I probably should never have gotten into this one. Having a discussion about the ethics of something in a forum with no absolute ethical standard is fairly impossible. I'll
Ok, I can handle that.
On the other hand, if you don't want 18-ish year old kids playing God don't give them guns and tell them to kill people.
I'm not disputing the points you make, but I'll say things look much different out there at the bloody end of the spear. You get weary listening to people back enjoying the comforts of home questioning the morality of your survival while you're hanging it all out on the line, ostensibly so they can keep those comforts.
It's a sticky wickett, either way.
The REALLY bad news is I agree with you :(
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Curiously, I have one kill AS a chute.
Hoew does this happen? Is a kill awarded when someone you shot up before having to bail out bails out themselves or crashes?
Or a proxy kill?
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I have limited experience but I have never been shot at while floating gently down, and I don't like the idea of shooting chutes, not even in a simulation. I am also well aware that it happened historically on all sides.
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Curiously, I have one kill AS a chute.
Hoew does this happen? Is a kill awarded when someone you shot up before having to bail out bails out themselves or crashes?
That, and when someone augers near you without having taken any damage, and you're closer than anyone else you get the kill. Got two kills of planes trying to strafe me as I was running vehicles supplies in an M3 recently.
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Originally posted by Puck
I'm not disputing the points you make, but I'll say things look much different out there at the bloody end of the spear. You get weary listening to people back enjoying the comforts of home questioning the morality of your survival while you're hanging it all out on the line, ostensibly so they can keep those comforts.
It's a sticky wickett, either way.
The REALLY bad news is I agree with you :(
Hi Puck, I know I said I'd let it go but, I did want to respond to your comments, and thank you for seeing beyond the "its just a game" answer.
I Pastor a church in Fayetteville, which is home to Ft. Bragg and Pope Air Force Base, so most of my congregation are either members of or dependent on the military. I have guys in my congregation who have been in multiple combat situations, who have remained ethical and honorable even when the men trying to kill them were operating strictly according to "ends justify means" thinking. These men I pastor are called on to do a dangerous, nasty, necessary job again and again who nonetheless do it without searing their consciences and without becoming barbarous in the process, they are by and large upstanding individuals and I am honored to pastor them and their families. The thing is, the reason they don't become barbarians under the incredible stress of combat is that their ethics are not some sort of written military code that they disregard as soon as they think no one is looking, but part of their very being. The idea of commiting attrocities is alien to who they are.
My experience however has uniformly been that in counseling situations, people "act out" based on their fantasy life. Men into online porn are usually the guys who move on to real life adultery, kids into games stressing murder, theft, etc. (GTA III for instance) often mindlessly violent in reality - as long as they think they can get away with it. Our dreams and desires say more about who we really are than the face we put on for the outside world. So... here's the rub, I have no reason to believe (in fact quite the opposite) that an individual who sees no problem in "playing" or "fantasizing" about war crimes wouldn't do these things under the stress of real combat. And ultimately the fear of punishment is not enough to restrain people from evil behavior, either our internal ethics preclude it, or its all just a matter of time, venue, and opportunity.
Ok, now unless someone else directly interacts, I'll leave it at that - really. :)
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Glasses It wasn't common practice for the LW to do that as they thought it was despicable ...
?!
ever heard of Guernica, glamazinhunk ??
oh wait, those were only civilians and they were bombed, not shot ... :-\
Goner
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AH has become far to complacent about the shooting of chutes.
Where is the outrage? Where is the moral indignation? Where are the questions of honor?
Bring those days back.
While it is entirely fun and some times righteous to kill a chuter, it is SO much more fun when they spew on channel 1.
...and Seagoon, if you are having trouble with the virtual/nonvirtual thing, you need the help.
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Originally posted by Goner
?!
ever heard of Guernica, glamazinhunk ??
oh wait, those were only civilians and they were bombed, not shot ... :-\
Goner
Wrong, Goner. The fighters went down to strafe after the bombers had finished their work. The experiment wouldn't have been complete without the strafing, don't you see.
- oldman
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I think AH should allow us a sidearm or maybe even a Tommy gun while hangin' in the chute. That would make it interesting.:)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
So... here's the rub, I have no reason to believe (in fact quite the opposite) that an individual who sees no problem in "playing" or "fantasizing" about war crimes wouldn't do these things under the stress of real combat.
Ok, now unless someone else directly interacts, I'll leave it at that - really. :)
- SEAGOON
Ok preach, give me your rationalazation for a preacher who fantasizes about war games.
Using your logic this seems a horible sin.
Have YOU ever stafed the church for a capture?
Or bombed the city knowing that theres a church there?
Or have you given thought to the innocent women and children in the "Cities?"
If not at the very least you have killed someones son flyin home to see his loved ones.
Or maybe its just a game?
Tommy
Saved by grace.
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Hi Tommy,
Actually there are several Pastors who fly AH and many evangelical laymen as well. Your question forces me into the realm of theology, which I have been trying to specifically avoid, because I don't think this BBS is designed for it and experience tells me that most players are not interested in reading it (in fact it makes many people very angry). So what I'll do is answer your questions as quickly as possible and then if you wish to discuss any of this further - and I'll extend that invitation to anyone else -you can contact me via email at: ajwebb@erols.com
You wrote:
Originally posted by X2Lee
Ok preach, give me your rationalazation for a preacher who fantasizes about war games.
Using your logic this seems a horible sin.
Have YOU ever stafed the church for a capture?
Or bombed the city knowing that theres a church there?
Or have you given thought to the innocent women and children in the "Cities?"
If not at the very least you have killed someones son flyin home to see his loved ones.
Or maybe its just a game?
Tommy
Saved by grace.
[WARNING THEOLOGY COMING, STOP READING NOW IF YOU ARE LIKELY TO BECOME HOPPING MAD]
Tommy, I don't know if you are familiar with the Christian concept of "just war theory" but Romans 13 (check out 13:4 in particular) clearly indicates that God has given the sword to the civil magistrate for the punishment of evil doers. This isn't limited to evil doers within the state, but without it as well. The Sword is obviously indicative of Capital and not corporal punishment. Paul is talking here about the death penalty and defensive war. Therefore, war, while it is always regrettable is often necessary. But we should, even in war, never forget fundamental concepts like mercy and even kindness. America displayed that in spades in the way it treated its vanquished enemies after the 2nd World War. So, playing a war games is not inherently sinful or wrong. You would hopefully wage the real thing within biblical parameters, so playing the simulation shouldn't be different. And you should know that the biblical constraints placed on Pastors are no different from any other Christian. True we are supposed to be exemplars in one sense, but so are all Christians (Matt. 5:16)
And yes, while I've "blowed up the town real good" on occasion, like many other players, I'm not happy with the strat and capture system at all. I haven't discussed it in public because I think it would produce just the kind of messages we've seen here "I LOOOOVE to Strafe the church and kill the 'cultists'" (oh yeah, that's not an expression of the thoughts of the heart) but I do plan on contacting HT directly to ask if that can be changed. I think if the church were a synagogue, a mosque, or even a Hospital people might be a tad more outraged about it. And yes, whenever possible I try to avoid having to be the one to take down the church. But unfortunately, until the capture system changed, destroying the town is necessary to win the war in this game. Shooting chutes on the other hand, is not even remotely necessary, and can't be considered a just war sim.
Oh, and before you are so quick to say our actions in a game have no link to our hearts consider my annecdote about Microsoft Flight sim in Egypt.
Ok, thats more than enough online, any further replies, please post them to me via email. I *really* don't want to offend the user community and the BBS administrator by saying anymore online.
Andy
Also saved by Grace Alone
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sorry seagoon... it don't wash.. "just war"??? I got no problem with christians fighting in a just war but... What about this game simulates a 'just war'?
this is a simulation/game about air combat. Killing every red plane you see. Who is the evil empire here? Who is the fascist enemy of freedom? Perhaps you see the evil of those who fly under the dildo icon?
face it... you are in it for the porn of killing. The object of AH has allways been to rack up a score by killing average everyday fellow humans and get away with it..
by your own logic.... you are doomed to be a serial killer if you continue down this road of virtual porn.
so don't give me any crap about shooting chutes... you serial killer.
lazs
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besides we all know that the people who do bad things to sheep, try and hide in the churches.
;)
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Where do I sign up for the holy war? As long as the other side has parachutes, I'm game.
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Like I said, I'm done here. But if you want to continue discussing the subject feel free to send me an email: ajwebb@erols.com
Pax,
SEAGOON
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seagoon.. I would also say that it is more likely that you will become a serial killer from playing AH than most since you seem to have the most difficulty seperating reality from simming and.....
you actually believe that there is a connection between what you do in a game or online and what you do in real life whereas most don't.
lazs
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Shooting chutes on the other hand, is not even remotely necessary
In all due respect, just what in the hell is Channel 1 for then?
Zeroping and his chat-happy sappy minions to undermine the great religous war against SAW inspired drivel and backslapping S! craptafic gayness?
Certainly not.
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wha?!?!?!?!?! this is a game ?!?!?!?
sigh....
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Originally posted by Shane
besides we all know that the people who do bad things to sheep, try and hide in the churches.
;)
edited out a stupid religious comment...
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If you don't want to get shot in your chute, don't bail out. If you don't want to die in this GAME, don't get out of the tower. If you couldn't figure this out on your own, cancel your account and take your daddy's stolen credit card back to him.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p
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I sat on the ground and watched this stupid NewU person try and shoot me while i was in a desert. So I was an easy target. It took him 10 minutes to kill me. But that was after he dropped his pair o 500 pounders.:D It was sooooooo funny. I was cussin him out the whole time.
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I cannot be bothered to read the entire thread. It should be deleted immediately because: There is NO reason for NOT chuting the chutes. There IS a reason to perforate them: EVERY chute I have shot has BLOWN UP. That is a SURE SIGN that the person is loaded with explosives, and we all know what he intends to do with that. So, to save civilian lives on the ground, u must KILL THEM. And we all know that loyal patriotic fun lovin' Republicans carry HANDGUNS not EXPLOSIVES!
Chute first, identify remains later!
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Originally posted by lazs2
you actually believe that there is a connection between what you do in a game or online and what you do in real life whereas most don't.
lazs
I have to agree with this fellow Reverend.
You are saying that I have no character because I am a "big dweeb" and shoot chutes.
And I have thought about whether God liked me strafing the church to play my game.
Then I thought, well the town needs a church so we cant leave it out, besides God knows I am just playing a airplane game so everytins cool. (besides thats where the arabs are hiding out)
;)
I CAN separate this from my GAME.
I joined a Squadron called the "Damned" They have a devil logo...
You think I am involved in some sort of a cult or is it just a bunch of guys who like to fly together?
No disrespect intended here, you strafed the church too..
"Judge not lest you be judged by the same measure.
My conscience is pretty clear as far as flying and shooting targets
in reality I wouldnt kick a dog, much less kill PEOPLE hanging in their chutes
But if I strafe your chute its cause you needed it
and I think you need it anytime you pull the ripcord.
Its not really hatred I am shooting at you its really just a test of the emergency broadcast system. Why just the other day, I wounded a resupply goon about 4k over his base, then I stafed his supply floaty while he watched from his chute and then I put his chute to bed with the fishes It wasnt for real tho :D
Ride it out like a hero
u wont really die
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If you want to bail out but dont want to get killed in the process, try a HALO jump.
I'll still only shoot dweebs in their chutes who can only fly easy planes like spits, n1k's and 262's.