Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Seagoon on September 24, 2002, 04:15:24 PM
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Well, I've been chomping at the bit for some time for a Perk Vehicle, and now we finally have our Michael Wittmanmobile about to be delivered.
However, I do have some questions related to fears about the modeling...
Nowhere on the front, side or rear of this tank was the armor thin enough to be penetrated by a .50 calibre bullet (even .50 Cal AP) and even the top and belly had 26mms of armor. Now, I'm willing to deal with thrown tracks as a result of a strafing run from a P51, but I am not looking forward to dealing with a dead turret as a result of strafing with 12.7s or worse 7.9s.
Also, will we the new Tiger be vulnerable to the HE 37mm rounds fired by the Ostie? Personally I always thought it rediculous that the Ostie could destroy a Panzer IV with rounds that aren't designed to penetrate armor, but losing perks as a result of this will be a real pain.
Just wondering.
- SEAGOON
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I agree about your comment of the ostie killing everything. I haven't had a victory in a panzer for who knows how long, and it is all because those damn ostwinds keep destroying me. Good luck to HT reworking the damage model!
Jason
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What was explaned to me when I brought up a simmilar point on GV damage modeling with the 50 cal killing the Panzer IVH from the front which has 80mm hull and 50mm turet armor was this " the 50 cal rounds are not pentrating" they are killing the gun's rendering them unusable by damaging them, I asume the same is true for the osty, it is not pentrating but damaging the gun. This is what I was told, now If you can or anybody can explane this to me and my thick head on how this is haping I would realy appricate it.
Another issue is the MG tracking one which imo is well lets kepp this "G" rated. Now acording to what I have read this simply did not occure with any frequency espichaly on the heaver vhecials, yet it is commonplace in AH, imo this is a gameplay feature.
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the gun barrel does not have 80mm of hardened armor??
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john9001, good try
...NEXT
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Here, I'll answer your questions.
1. Yes, .50 caliber and Hispano will still be able to kill the Tiger. How do I know this? Because they can kill the Panzer IV. I've raised a HUGE fuss over this several times, we've had ballistic charts posted that HT himself commented on which showed that the .50 caliber could indeed penetrate the top armor of a Pz IV, if fired from like 300 yards away at 0 degrees deflection. The Hispano actually had LESS armor pentrating ability than the .50. Which means that shortly after the Spitfire fires through your top armor, he becomes a smoking hole in the ground. Except he doesn't.
2. Yes, the Flakpansie will be able to kill the Tiger. See explanation above.
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In which case they might as well not add it because people won't spend perks on a so called heavy tank that can be taken out by peashooters.
-Amboss
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tanks can shoot a helluva lot further than an osty can. an di'm sure the tiger will shoot hella far.
what's hard to grasp about "tactics? ?
yeah, yeha, osty's pull up close to spawn, yada yada... well how about "coordinated tactics" ?
personally i think the osty should have a small perk price, like say 3 perkies. simply because of it's affect on gv gameplay.
til then i'll use it when the situation warrants.
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What tactics? Driving 30 minutes countryside to get behind the spawnpoint camping ostie?
How about just fixing something that's obviously broken? An ostie can shoot all it wants with 37mm low velocity, soft projectiles against the sloped armor of a tank and it's not gonna do a whole lot except maybe at such close a range that the tank is gonna pump it full of 80mm AP rounds while blindfolded before it could statistically land a killing blow.
I am sure the Sherman Crews would cheer to heaven if they knew they could take out Tigers with calibers as low as .303... :rolleyes:
Nothing short of a direct hit with a bomb or several hits of AP tank rounds should take out a Tiger tank, especially if it's gonna be perked.
-Amboss
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Ok here is an act of blatant begging, a whine, a heartfelt plea against doing something I see coming.
PLEASE, O PLEASE, DON'T GIVE THE TIGER AN ICON SAYING "TIGER"!!!
Please give it an Icon saying PNZR and let the pilots identify the kind of Panzer via eyeballs. Giving the Tiger a gang-bang tag will make this exactly the kind of bomb and Ostie magnet that we fear it will become. Driving a ground based Spit 14 isn't going to be much fun, and with NO significant ground cover and a penchant for giving desert camouflage to vehicles that will be predominantly used on Green backgrounds these beasts are going to be easy to spot in any event.
Besides the Tiger was the Panzer VI anyway.
- SEAGOON
BTW - Amboss, just being nitpicky, the Panzer IV had a 75mm high velocity gun, not an 80mm. But I get your point.
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the gun barrel does not have 80mm of hardened armor??
No it doesn't, but is it made of pretty good chunk of hardened steel all by itself. Further, since it is round it should count as having sloped armor.
My conjecture is that in AH any round that penetrates armor does some about of damage no matter what is underneith the armor. So, if the gun is not armored, then a 7.62 round will do some damage to it even though the 7.62 should have simply bounced off. Ping it with enough 7.62 and the damage accumulates till the gun is destroyed.
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Seagoon, I was thinking about the Tiger when I wrote that, but then that would be 88mm. In any case, I stand corrected ;)
-Amboss
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why should a ostie be able to take out a panzer. ive shot the panzer with about 30 ap shots from my panzer and all i get is deflection. but with the ostie i shoot (same spoot) 5 shots and the panzer is dead. does something seem wrong there.
hopefully this cant happen with the tigert or it will be a total waste of nates time.
ne way getting rid of osties is easy
1 well dropped 500 pound bomb = one dead ostie
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I'll add one more question to the list:
Given that most GV missions can end at a friendly field only with an excessively long drive, is the perk penalty going to apply? If so, the Tiger will be used only for base defense since it won't be worth taking it to an enemy field.
My recommendation would be to allow it to ditch undamaged without losing perks.
HAMMER
netAces.org - Tactics, Info and More! (http://www.netaces.org)
=GHOSTS=....You Will Believe! (http://www.ghost-squadron.org)
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Why not just remove Icons from GV's entierly.
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That would be very nice, Brady. But needs, IMHO, 2 tweaks:
a) Field Attack alarm should warn about LAND attack.
b) Antitank mannable guns should be implemented for field defense.
Cheers,
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"That would be very nice, Brady. But needs, IMHO, 2 tweaks: "
"a) Field Attack alarm should warn about LAND attack."
It does now, If I see a base flashing and I go their to defend it, I look out the window and see if the dar is up(or check the strat on my clipboard), then I look and see their is no dot in the sector and no DAR bar....This means GV's inbound takes about 30 sec to figure all this out. Ya see I am motavated toward this end because I like hunting GV in planes so I look for the signs smell the wind and taste the dirt:)
b) Antitank mannable guns should be implemented for field defense.
Well they are now in a way, I can kill an osty with ease with a flack gun and greater than it's effective range, and Tanks are just as easy, although if used properly they can out range the maned ack. At any rate you would see them firing in time to go out and kill them with a plane.
I almost always spot GV's way beyond ICon rang as it is,now from the air, the best thing removing the GV icon will do is enhance the viabality of the Perk GV.
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Originally posted by brady
Why not just remove Icons from GV's entierly.
We'll you've got my vote, at least to remove the ICON on enemy GVs (I'd hate to end up shooting friendlies by accident). Without any natural cover and high contrast cammo on the two biggies (PNZR IV and Ostie) we need at least a little help hiding from the ubiquitous Jabos. Besides, it would be gloriously fun for pilots not to be able to tell if they were strafing an M3 or an M16 until it was too late. hehehehehe.
- SEAGOON
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Wouldnt a bunch of .50 rounds coming through the engine grate kill the engine? Couldnt it also set it on fire?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Wouldnt a bunch of .50 rounds coming through the engine grate kill the engine? Couldnt it also set it on fire?
There is no engine grate on most tanks and certainly no grate on the Tiger. All the vital components of the engine and its cooling system and exhaust (except for the stacks themselves - which were only lightly portected) was encased in armor. This made tanks extremely hot little boxes to travel around in, as much of the engine heat dissipated into the crew compartment. Modern tanks are mercifully airconditioned, but aside from a few fans, and small slits, WW2 tanks offered their crews no relief from the heat. One of the biggest reasons - aside from vision - that crews hated to be "buttoned up" anytime except winter.
- SEAGOON
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There is no engine grate on most tanks and certainly no grate on the Tiger.
Then would you care to comment on what the grates are doing on the rear deck of this photo?
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/tigold.jpg)
Every single model I've seen of the Tiger has had four relatively coarse grates in the armor on the rear engine decking, which had a finer mesh screen under the grates in the armor.
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Shiva,
My bad. Mea maxima culpa. I was stupidly assuming that what was meant was a radiator grate similar to the front of a car in the back of the tank rather than the air intakes for the Maybach engine on the rear top deck.
Possibly then top deck hits could theoretically penetrate to the engine compartment, although I do not know if the engine is directly beneath the grating. In any event I stand (or sit) corrected.
Thanks,
SEAGOON
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This pick shows Tigers rear deck/engine bay. During april 1944 wooden decking was installed over the top of the upper fuel tanks to catch artillery splinters and bullet splash that came through the cooling air grates on the rear deck...
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Wulfie had this to say on a thread which was along the same subject matter:
Dig up some data on the best possible penetration of armor plate by the .50 MG carried by the P-47.
Dig up some data on the armor plate of any post '40 MBT that fought in WW2, *including* BHN and quality ratings.
In short - what you posted is wrong. Even aircraft carrying 2cm cannon couldn't really affect MBTs in WW2. MBT kills by aircraft were *massively* overclaimed.
Numerous books talk of 'hundreds' of German AFVs being 'destroyed' by 'rocket and cannon firing Typhoons' at the 'Falaise gap' during the battle for Normandy in 1944.
USAAF and RAF records, from a very detailed study that was undertaken only 1 month later found that ~6 (SIX) German MBTs were 'destroyed' by air attack at the 'Falaise gap'.
Destroyed = vehicle destroyed...set on fire, and/or exploded, or damaged to the point that repair is not an option.
LW pilots, being interviewed by USAF intel types in the 1950s when the USAF was planning for the possibility of fighting the Soviet Union, explained that even 3.7cm and 5.0cm cannon, along with bombs, were not very useful vs. the T-34. You had to hit too small an area while flying at too high a speed unless you got down to a slow enough speed that you were practically commiting suicide.
From 1944 onward German ground attack pilots...flying Fw 190Fs, etc., armed with 2cm cannon with AP ammunition, bombs, cluster bombs, rockets, etc. - were trained to attack the fuel supply vehicles of Soviet armored spearheads - because trying to kill individual Soviet MBTs was basically a waste of time and/or effort. Kill the fuel and all the MBTs aren't a threat in 100 or so miles, and then they are out of gas and ready to be easily killed by counterattacking German units.
The big problem with perception vs. reality = guys like Rudel write a book. It's too easy for some to assume that because Rudel could do it, that even 5, or 10 other pilots in the entire LW could do it.
MBTs were often 'mission killed' by air attack - meaning they had their tracks or wheels damaged, or their gunsight messed up, etc. And then they were useless for the next couple of hours at least, which was fine for the guys fighting said MBTs who called in the air support.
But it was very, very rare for any post '40 MBT to be 'exploded' or 'knocked out with significant crew casualties' as a result of an attack made by an enemy aircraft.
Read some armored unit AARs from WW2. I gurantee that the 'Tigers' that were 'killed' by the P-47s was a case of this...
1. P-47s strafe a column of German vehicles. They probably see some Pz IVs that they ID as Tigers (no shame here - 95% of all German MBTs were 'Tigers' in the opinion of most US and UK combat troops - be it pilots, riflemen, AT gunners, etc.).
2. Pz IV crews see they don't have AAA coverage. First pass is MG hits. No damage. Next pass could be bombs. Get the hell out of the tank and hide a safe distance away.
3. P-47 pilots see AFV crewmen abandoning AFVs. 'Looks like an AFV kill'.
4. P-47s leave. Pz IV crewmen check Pz IVs for damage and resume march.
Think this is crazy? Read some AARs from actual armored units (I have), or interview some actual armored unit veterans (I have) - very, VERY common to bail out of the tank when there is lots of smoke in the crew compartment (like from an exhaust that's been screwed up by cannon fire, or a near miss from a bomb or artillery shell). Smoke dies down, or gasoline burns off (any idea how hard it is to get gasoline to actually 'explode', as opposed to just burning?) and the crew gets back in the AFV.
I'm not saying you don't know anything, and I'm not saying you aren't a smart guy. But I have studied armor and penetration data a great deal. A P-47 could not destroy a Pz VIE with .50 MG fire.
The above was taken from this thread:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60811
This aspect of AH is curently one of the gamest features imo we have.
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brady
Thanks for the post, I asked cause I didn't know, and you sound like your probably right! :)