Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Pongo on September 26, 2002, 01:15:05 PM
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stolen from Hyperscale.com
read this! (http://features02.kitparade.com/mosquito410mb_1.htm)
"Wg Cdr E. D. Crew DFC, (pilot) and WO W. R. Croysdill (operator) took off West Malling at 0100hrs and landed there at 0230hrs. I was patrolling over the channel at 23,000ft under Wartling GCI (Controller F/C Powell), when I was vectored onto a bogey on a course of 340.’
‘Contact was obtained at four miles slightly below and crossing port to starboard on an a/c taking slight evasive action. At full speed the range closed easily and I did not use N2O at all. After four minutes, range was 1,000ft and I obtained an indistinct visual of a twin engined a/c, which, on closing to 300ft, I believed to be a Ju88. No exhausts were visible. I eased the nose of the Mosquito up and fired a short burst from dead astern, just as the e/a began to dive. This was followed by a last flash from the centre section and cockpit area, and flames.’
‘I followed the a/c down and fired again, with more strikes in the same area, resulting in more white flames and e/a dived very steeply to port. A third deflection burst produced more strikes and flashes and e/a disappeared below me. Visual and contact was lost. I noticed that outboard of each engine there was a cylindrical bulge beneath each wing, resembling the long range tanks of the Fw190.’
‘Shortly afterwards, I was put on another contact at 4,000ft height. This e/a was at 3.5 miles range, below and to port, flying in a southerly direction. I turned to starboard as it crossed and followed it down through a steep port orbit. Evasive action was moderate and window was being used. As I straightened out of the orbit, an a/c crossed in front at almost collision range, and I had to pull up sharply to avoid hitting it, so that I had no chance to open fire. As it passed below me, I recognized the twin fins and rudders of a Do217. But though I turned round immediately I could not regain contact, and because of the nearness of the French coast I was told to return on 330.’
‘Time of combat 0048. Place of combat R11. At 0050 according to the ROC MG fire was heard at sea, at 055 an a/c later identified as an Me410 crashed in Brighton reference Q72. No ack-ack was heard in the area before 0110, AI 2 (G) report that 20mm cannon strikes have been found on this Me410.’
‘This a/c was originally claimed as a Ju88 probably destroyed. It is now claimed as an Me410 destroyed in view of the evidence of the British crash.’
‘Wg Cdr Crew states that his operator said at the time it was a Me410 but he contradicted him and insisted that it was a Ju88. The inability to see exhausts from above would also point to its having been, in fact, an Me410.
Armament report: rounds fired: 20mm SAPI 48, 20mm HEI 48. Total 96
Stoppages: Nil
Cine camera exposed 1ft automatically’
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cool write up.
note the ammo usage and the engagment range.
100 yards he opend up at.
24 rounds per gun of 20mm hispano. in 3 bursts of 8(?) each...
those are increadably controled bursts. Less then 1 second each.
Note the mix of ammo 1 to 1 SAPI and HEI Semi Armour Peircing Incinderary and High Explosive Incinderary..
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At night(Real night, not AH night) it can't be easy to spot enemy planes.
Engagements like that would be a lot of fun if they could exist in AH.
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Ja, the nightfighters usually had to close in quite close just to I/D the A/C visually - the P-61 had those cool night binoculars, but the 3 books i've read about mossie night fighters have never mentioned anything like that
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although the me410 was killed in this engagement i still want it in AH :D
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the Hornisse would probably be more lethal in the heavy fighter role than the Mossie, since its performance for both the A and B models was better. However, as a jabo, the Mossie would be better, since it can lift several more rockets. The higher speed of the 410 would probably make it a better schnellbomber.
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Originally posted by DingHao2
the Hornisse would probably be more lethal in the heavy fighter role than the Mossie, since its performance for both the A and B models was better. However, as a jabo, the Mossie would be better, since it can lift several more rockets. The higher speed of the 410 would probably make it a better schnellbomber.
Hate to tell you this, but the Mosquito FB.Mk VI is faster (at 13,000ft and below), climbs better and is more manuverable.
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Note that the Mossie was equipped with Nitrous Oxide.
Interesting bit about the ammo loadout.
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410 was faster? everything i've read about Me410 says top speed was under 400 MPH, everything i've read about DH.98 (except AH performance charts) says top speed was over 400 MPH...if you want a heavily armed, fast, twin engine axis fighter/bomber my choice would be He219: faster than mossie, dont know bomb load, but have read that it was used in that role
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Heinkel He 219 A-7 Uhu: 670 km/h
Messerschmitt Me410 A-1/U-2 Hornisse: 630 km/h
De Havilland DH 98 Mk.IV Mosquito: 620 km/h
(dont knwo much about other Versions of Mosquito)
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Originally posted by whgates3
410 was faster? everything i've read about Me410 says top speed was under 400 MPH, everything i've read about DH.98 (except AH performance charts) says top speed was over 400 MPH...if you want a heavily armed, fast, twin engine axis fighter/bomber my choice would be He219: faster than mossie, dont know bomb load, but have read that it was used in that role
He219 bomber version were planned (He219 A-3, bomb load 1,800 kg or 2x1,000 kg), but none was built.
Do-335 would be better jabo, cruising speed was just 426 mph (685 kmh) at 23,295ft (7100m) and max speed 478 mph (770 kmh) at 21,000ft (6400m). Bomber version carried one 500kg bomb or 2x250 kg bombs internally and 2x250 kg bombs externally. Armament was single MK 103 firing through the propeller shaft and two cowling mounted MG 151/15 cannons and two MK 103 in the wings...
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Duedel, probably the Mosquito version you're looking for would be a 1944 variant like the NF Mk.30 (fighter/jabo) or the B Mk.XVI (bomber). Both of these were very considerably faster than the 1942-era B Mk.IV.
A quick search on the web gave a max speed of 424mph for the Mk.30 at 25,000 feet. I have no idea how accurate that is.
Interestingly the same site noted that N2O (in german terms, GM-1) was available (specifically, it listed the takeoff weight when N2O was installed).
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bombjack,
Do 335 would be better "anything" than most planes...
// fats
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I was referring to the Mosquito Mk. VI. My info source might be wrong...i have a book called "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" that says the 410 A-1 makes 387 mph @ 20000 feet. Im sure it would be less maneuverable, but with 1800 hp versus 1650 hp on the mossie, i wouldnt be sure on the climb rate.
I would still like to see the 410 B-1 or B-2 in AH though.
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Here's the data for the Mossie in AH.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/mossie6speed.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/mossie6climb.gif)
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Originally posted by DingHao2
I was referring to the Mosquito Mk. VI. My info source might be wrong...i have a book called "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" that says the 410 A-1 makes 387 mph @ 20000 feet. Im sure it would be less maneuverable, but with 1800 hp versus 1650 hp on the mossie, i wouldnt be sure on the climb rate.
I would still like to see the 410 B-1 or B-2 in AH though.
7mph faster at 20,000ft isn't very useful for an aircraft that will see most usage in Jabo.
The Mosquito Mk VI Series II (what we have in AH) is faster than a Spitfire LF.Mk IX at low altitude (The Spitfire LF.Mk IX is faster at low altitude than the Spitfire F.Mk IX that we have in AH) and I know of at least one time in which a Me410 was run down by a Spitfire LF.Mk IX at low altitude.
I do agree that the Me410 would be a very nice addition. Just don't set yourself up for disappointment by making it out to be better than it was.
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the hornisse in the story was on a bombing mission - anyone know if the Me410 carried a bomb sight, an if so, was the bomber version of the 410 unarmed (like the DH. 98 bomber). heavily armed & fast level bomber could be very useful
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Me410 B-1 (dive bomber/bomber) got two MG151/20 and two MG131 at nose plus two MG131 at remotely controlled rear firing barbettes...
Bomb load
-two 250kg or two 500kg or single 1000kg internally
-two 500kg under wing racks
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karnak, the idea behind it jaboing w/ it would be to fly @ 20000 feet or so and then dive over the target and release the bombs...the A-1 and B-1 models had dive bombing sights. it also had defensive armament, making it tougher to kill than the Mosquito Mk. VI.
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DingHao2,
20,000ft is well in excess of where a Jabo should climb too, especially for a mere 7mph.
Consider that most of the fighters in AH gain more than 7mph going from 13,000ft to 20,000ft. For example, the Spitfire Mk IX does ~375mph at 13,000ft and about 390mph at 20,000ft. So at 20,000ft doing 387mph you are slower in relation to the enemy fighters than you are at 13,000ft doing 380mph.
The other problem with coming in at 20,000ft (I speak from experience in the Mosquito) is that you reach too high of a speed in the dive.
Coming in at ~10,000ft still puts you above most of the enemy and your trip is much quicker. The dive in from 10,000ft works much better as you won't compress. In my experience, if any enemy fighter has bothered to climb above 10,000 to 15,000ft then he has likely bothered to climb abover 25,000ft. P-51D squads, for example, seem to usually be at ~25,000ft.
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the 410's had dive brakes...the idea is to dive bomb and then expend ammo on targets on the ground after the dive.
That 7 mph is actually a significant number for piston aircraft...for modern aircraft (jets), that could translate to 50 mph.
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But remember that extra 7mph is useless because it isn't gonna be a mossie @ 20k chasing you- it'll be a 400mph+ fighter.
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so then why even have a mossie? for that matter why have half the planes here, if they can be chased down? the idea of that extra speed is to make the plane more survivable.
also: after doing more research, i have found the top speed of the 410 A-1 to be 388 mph and for the B-1, 392 mph.
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Originally posted by Duedel
Heinkel He 219 A-7 Uhu: 670 km/h
Messerschmitt Me410 A-1/U-2 Hornisse: 630 km/h
De Havilland DH 98 Mk.IV Mosquito: 620 km/h
(dont knwo much about other Versions of Mosquito)
That He219 was stripped - no radar antenna, missing guns, no flame dampers - useless as a night fighter.
The Mosquito IV was a bomber, no guns. The Mosquito B IX could do 432mph @29,000ft(695kph @ 8800m).
The Mosquito FB VI did ~610kph while the NF 36 (the contemerary of the He219) did 655kph.
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Whatever the comparison with the Mossie it would still be a cool a/c to have.
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in "Pursuit Through Darkened Skies" RAF nightfighter R/O Michael Allen recounts a tail of chasing and being outrun by an He219 in his Mossie XXX
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Originally posted by DingHao2
so then why even have a mossie? for that matter why have half the planes here, if they can be chased down? the idea of that extra speed is to make the plane more survivable.
also: after doing more research, i have found the top speed of the 410 A-1 to be 388 mph and for the B-1, 392 mph.
Because the chance of ever having a tail chase deminishes a great deal when you have the extra speed. The engagement does not start with the planes 2000 yards apart. It typicaly starts with the interceptor on the ground and the bomber level at 25k. Try to formulate an intercept on an aircraft that you only have a 15mph speed adavantage on when he is 1000s of feet above you and already at max level speed. You need alot more speed to get him.
Any extra speed makes the plane more survivable. Not just the 2mph that keep it from being over run by a near same speed opponent.
That is why the Germans had so much trouble with Mossies even in day light. They were at alt and at speed allready. So even a german plane with a 20mph ablsolute speed advantage would have a hell of a task to get into an intercept position at all.
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my point exactly.