Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs1 on December 26, 2001, 12:25:00 PM
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Yep... For the sake of all styles of fighting or gameplay... With the fields so far apart people are simply fighting at one or two locations. The rest of the map is pretty much unused. And why should it (the rest of the map)be? Furballers aren't going to go where there are no people, especially if they have to fly over a sector to find out that there is no one to fight or that they are vastly outnumbered and/or there is nothing but some high alt ballet instead of what they prefer in air combat... NO, they go where the fight is thickest... best chance for an even break and a chance to make it home without some cherry picker making a few B&Z runs on their low fuel out of ammo on the deck but half a sector from home and all alone spit or nik.
Strat guys have their work undone in the long time it takes to get to a field.. They also have the choice of milkrunning an unused field or braving the furball...
If fields were closer together the front would move quicker and... there would be more action at more places on the map... better for everyone.
As proof... look what happens in that pitiful NDisles map.. The only good fights are when a CV is involved... The CV's cut the flight time in half and are the source of a lot of action (and fun)... Those areas are very popular.
Even a 10% reduction in distance would help everyones gameplay as would tougher CV's
lazs
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Back in WB (paybythehour2play days), the fields were very close together.
Mostly to increase action, while reducing the cost per hour to get to the action.
This meant fights were between the deck and ~8K....
Thems was some of my most fun times, but mighty expensive.
-SW
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well.. my time is worth more than 2 bucks an hour these days but the idea is still good.. The front moved faster back then and everyone "participated" even if (like me) they didn't really intend to.
With the fields far apart it seperates the different styles of gameplay and causes more resentment.
lazs
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Hehhee, ok, so now you want the checklist to be...
1) Start engine
2) Roll
3) Gear up
4) Fire guns!
:D
Just being the lone heckler here :) I think the distances are fine.
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Nah, all lazs wants is a map with a single field, 10k airstart (Apart from blue planes who get 12k and LW planes who get 8k)
Daff
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Hey Laz, if you play IL-2, I made this especially for you. It is Laz's fightertown, but there is a ground war going between the bases. Play it as a dogfight so you can refly at will as can new pilots.
http://www.lizking.com/laz.mis (http://www.lizking.com/laz.mis)
http://www.lizking.com/laz.properties (http://www.lizking.com/laz.properties)
(And it is pretty fun to play, too)
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Originally posted by Daff:
Nah, all lazs wants is a map with a single field, 10k airstart (Apart from blue planes who get 12k and LW planes who get 8k)
Daff
They have that in Fighter Ace. And unlimited fuel and ammo. It's a hamster wheel fan's dream come true.
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daff, gadfly and raub... now there is a trio for ya.. LOL.. Kinda proves my point huh? and.... you can throw in lepaul who thinks the fields are fine as they are.. If you define what is fun by these guys you will spend your life hiding from each other. Well... maybe not so much daff but he doesn't even play AH so he is even harder to find.
seriously guys... you can still take off from a back field 3 sectors away from anyone... yu can still mlkrun deserted fields and hide from the action... no real change for you except... you will have to hear people having fun and I know how much that grates on you.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
With the fields so far apart people are simply fighting at one or two locations.
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So if we cut the distance between fields in half...people will...what? Not fight in one or two locations? Perhaps not, because they will all be busy vulching eachother like baboons on acid. Can you imagine how incredible boring it will be to have a bunch of two week wonders hanging over each and every field?
Furballers aren't going to go where there are no people, especially if they have to fly over a sector to find out that there is no one to fight or that they are vastly outnumbered and/or there is nothing but some high alt ballet instead of what they prefer in air combat...
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First your saying that we need fields closer together to spread out the fighting, because now "people are simply fighting at one or two locations" then you say that the furballers wont go where there are no people.
So now I'm confused. Do the furballers want closer fields or not? And why do furballers act like grade school primadonnas?
NO, they go where the fight is thickest... best chance for an even break and a chance to make it home without some cherry picker making a few B&Z runs on their low fuel out of ammo on the deck but half a sector from home and all alone spit or nik.
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Perhaps these furballers should start thinking about teamwork and tactics?
Strat guys have their work undone in the long time it takes to get to a field.. They also have the choice of milkrunning an unused field or braving the furball...
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Uh, now you lost me again. Most strat guys I have seen spend most of their time grabbing alt in their fighters or buffs. A low level furball (which is all you would have in your "lets have a MA with closer fields") is of no interest to them (nor is it a threat in any way).
If fields were closer together the front would move quicker and... there would be more action at more places on the map... better for everyone.
[/b]
Uh, no. Not for the furballers who "aren't going to go where there are no people, especially if they have to fly over a sector to find out that there is no one to fight or that they are vastly outnumbered and/or there is nothing but some high alt ballet instead of what they prefer in air combat..."
Even a 10% reduction in distance would help everyones gameplay as would tougher CV's
lazs
I'm probably incredibly stupid here arguing with the mightly lazs..who so eloquently slaughtered am0n in another thread not far from here. But where oh where did you get that 10% figure from? Admit it Lazs, you just grabbed it out of thin air. And why on earth would it help everyones gameplay? I like to fly E fighters, that means I spend the first 10 minutes after takeoff grabbing alt, often heading away from the nearest furball.
How about this: I say that a 32,5% increase in distance between fields would help everyones gameplay. If you have a 20 min ride to the target, you dont blow it all in one glorious suicide run just to strafe one pony on the ground.
Why was Bigweek so much fun? Because you only had one life, and you knew that if you had to ditch or bail or whatever, you would spend the next hour watching the radio, waiting for the next frame. How many pointless suicide charges did you see?
Spread the fields further apart, or better yet, enforce a 5 minutes waiting period before a killed or captured pilot is allowed to reup.
Steve Hortlund
Steve74
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Increasing flight time? That might work for you people who don't have lives outside of this game, but I can't spend 40 minutes just flying around (20 minutes there, 20 minutes back) just because someone wants to get an easy kill on someone bored out of his mind because he's been on autoclimb for the past 20 minutes.
Good thing HTC has enough sense to not implement that in the MA.
You ever notice how the maps used in scenarios and TODs are scaled down? It ain't "just because".
-SW
[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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I see your point, and I suppose everyone has a different opinion about this issue.
How about this then:
CT fields stay where they are (and that 5 min delay before reup is still on my wish-list)
MA a 10% reduction in distance -as it would help everyones gameplay.
Steve
[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: Hortlund ]
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I think it fine as is. You always will have fields close enough to get about 5k and then go t and B to your hearts delight. You also have rear fields where one can get that 10-20k as desired... or more for some. It doesnt need changing.
xBAT
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hortlund... where did you get the 10% number? Just pull it out of thin air? seriously... I did.. make it 9% or 15% whatever.. Point is..
If fields are far apart then the majority of players will go to the one or two places on the map where there is some action. This is bad for furball gameplay as there isn't much variety and a lot of wasted time.. It's bad for the strat guys because they either go to the action or milkrun.. in affect they are not even in the same game as the majority.
So... if they are somewhat closer then furballers will feel that they have a chance of making it back to base if they venture out to fight at another less popular location.. The front will obviously move faster. strat guys will get soething accomplished and furballers won't be forced to "hang in there" at an overrun field simply because it's the only game in town.
I don't see how you fail to realize that furballers congregate at only a few fields now and that the reason is that they simply won't waste the time to check out other fights. There are nmo other fights worthy of a furballers time.. A lot of us feel that anything more than a few minutes getting to the fight is a waste of time. 3K, 5K 10K it makes no differense in a fur.. Alt is not a big advantage if at all. SA and ACM win the day. Come in high to a fur and you will just take longer to die and have less fun.
If the fields were closer melee aficianados would "take a chance" on some of the smaller fights knowing that if it didn't work out they had a good chance of making it back without being chased for an entire sector by faster and higher planes looking to cherry pick in a late war fast ride.
You may or may not be affected by closer fields if all you do is climb up to 20k and fight others of your ilk.. certainly it would in no way make things worse for you. It is possible things would be better.. you would have more areas to chose from that had population.
Obviously... you can't force people to fly like you enjoy and obviously... people don't. There is a very limited number of people who don't go out of their skull with boredom at what you call fun... If you make an arena that "forces" people to fly that way you just have people logging off en masse..
Proof? Look at the MA and what the majority are doing.... See how fights tend to mass around CV's because of the action.. then look at scenarios that have fields far apart and many... or look at a CT that has low population density. The later two are failures. A scenario that allows quick action or a CT designed with high population density are popular.
To sumarize.. closer fields don't hurt you a bit so the only reason you can have for being against them is that it bothers you when other people are having fun.
lazs
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lazs, in the "game feedback/issues" forun you have a possible idea to have fields closer together. Check "Buidling up NEW fields" post.
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Also.. you talk of "bigweek" and how superior it was to the MA because people were punished in the most severe manner for taking chances or mixing it up... Just how fun was it? 350 people fun? 250? 100? 50? Why not just run it over and over 24/7 in a seperate arena? After a week or so we should see what people wanted.
lazs
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Okay let's just put it this way,there are two type's of pilot's. One that would would rather takeoff and get into a short dogfight then have to do it all over again. Then there's the type that would rather take a few minute's to get alt and have a better chance of surviving. I one of those pilot's. No matter how far or how close the field's are together doesn't mean that it's gonna increase the action. There just fine the where they are. Beside's war wasn't meant to be at close range's. If you have no strategy there's no way in hell you can win the war. Plus these low level dogfight's aren't very fun anyway's,by the time you get to 6 thousand feet your heading to the ground. Let's get more alt and have a better chance of returning home shall we! :cool:
One Of The Guy's,
Squirral
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I guess me and Lazs are just "different". I mean, with all these guys saying that you can live more if you stay higher and have dogfights at alt, we must be dying a whole crapload.
And since these furballs aren't fun at all, I guess me and Lazs are just wasting our time.
Also, we must be playing this game all wrong-- shoot I know we are if it's a war!!!
Just some numbers for you guys who think Lazs' style of play gets you killed a lot and is boring:
My fighter stats for Tour23:
K/D: 4.7407
K/S: 2.2857
K/T: 0.0022
That's from furballing.
I can't compare it to other guys in this thread, because all of the advocates of making fields farther apart, or imposing a death penalty aren't posting under their flying handles.
-SW
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Originally posted by Squirral:
Okay let's just put it this way,there are two type's of pilot's. One that would would rather takeoff and get into a short dogfight then have to do it all over again. Then there's the type that would rather take a few minute's to get alt and have a better chance of surviving. I one of those pilot's. No matter how far or how close the field's are together doesn't mean that it's gonna increase the action. There just fine the where they are. Beside's war wasn't meant to be at close range's. If you have no strategy there's no way in hell you can win the war. Plus these low level dogfight's aren't very fun anyway's,by the time you get to 6 thousand feet your heading to the ground. Let's get more alt and have a better chance of returning home shall we! :cool:
One Of The Guy's,
Squirral
You're making the assumption that those who don't grab alt and enter a dogfight low don't intend to survive. Wrong.
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squirral... close fields won't stop u from getting alt if you think that is an advantage for you. those who would fight in furballs by coming in with a huge alt advantage are only kidding themselves.. All they do is reduce their action and K/t numbers... their K/D is no better... it just takes longer to get the same numbers. In the midst of a large fur the planes 4k above me are of no concern to me. I have plenty of time to act if they get brave.
The only way that alt really helps you in a furball is if you use it to avoid the furball. If you wish to avoid furballs that is fine. You would still be able to do so. Strat would be increased because fields would fall easier.
And... unlike you... most do not enjoy the "few minutes" spent gaining alt to spend another "few minutes" looking for a fight that you have the advantage in so that you can spend another "few minutes" sneaking up so that you can spend another "few minutes" chasing the con who flys like you do and realizes that he is 5 mph slower and 50 feet lower so has to run like hell for "a few minutes" with you spending another fun filled "few minutes" chasing him.
lazs
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Originally posted by Squirral:
Plus these low level dogfight's aren't very fun anyway's,by the time you get to 6 thousand feet your heading to the ground. Let's get more alt and have a better chance of returning home shall we! :cool:
One Of The Guy's,
Squirral
Dude, you haven't had fun til you've taken a 109 F-4 up from a capped airfield and knocked off a vulcher (vulture?) Sure, you die lots, but it's a lot of fun, and sometimes you actually get to land a kill.
Don't tell me how to have fun, 'k?
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Very impressive stats swulfe.. and they don't mean toejam.
The idea that moving the fields closer together will spread out the fights is simply ludicrous. You make ack running more accessable and you make vulching more accessable. Very few of the people engaging in these furballs care very little about spreading things out. They want tons o cons so they can shoot at something.
Of course, you get decent stick in the middle of it... with squadies especially... and you get numbers from hell. I guess lazs and swulfe do have something in comon... the furballs make for some easy targets and they love it.
Moving fields farther apart could also serve to spread out the fight (afterall.. we don't need to really support an argument in a lazs thread.. just throw it out there). A 10% increase in the distance should do the trick.
The only way to spread out the field is to increase front. Bigger maps starting with more bases head to head. Make it so at least 5 bases on every front are opposing each other. Look at the current map sets... the Mind and Lake map always have super clogged fronts... because there is usually only two or three bases on each front... mostly due to the geography. If you were just to add more bases (put them closer means adding more right?)... then it would just be more bases with the same area and the same log jam.
On a side note.. I can't help but find it quite humorous watching Lazs try to argue that the furballers just aren't doing it the way he likes right now. Oh... wait.. it must be the strat guys that are causing these over populated furball clogs. :rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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DJ, they do mean toejam.
When these guys suffer roadkillitis such as this:
"Then there's the type that would rather take a few minute's to get alt and have a better chance of surviving."
Or this: "How about this: I say that a 32,5% increase in distance between fields would help everyones gameplay. If you have a 20 min ride to the target, you dont blow it all in one glorious suicide run just to strafe one pony on the ground. "
It just goes to show you that these stats that don't mean toejam, coming from someone who spends the majority of his time furballing, actually mean toejam. It means that in a furball I can get kills quickly, and I can live. I don't need alt, and thus the two above statements mean absolutely nothing.
-SW
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SW... those are very good stats. I think you make your (and my) point. If you can survive, K/D, and you can kill.. K/S, and... you can do it quickly K/T... you are flying in a very skilled manner... I don't believe that any of the "realistic" "fly to live" advocates can match all those numbers.. They may be able to get the K/D easy enough (or even much better) but they will have to take enormous amounts of fuel or rearm constantly to equal the K/S and they will then have K/T figures that dip below what most would find tolerable.
Point is... They can fly anyway they want if the fields are closer together.. I'ts just some kinda sour grapes thing with em to want fields farther apart or... They honestly believe (LOL!) that they are more skilled than furballers or smarter or something and that the stats are conspiring against them.
personally... I find working my way up to the alt guys just results in a less than interesting fight with an inexperianced fighter.
lazs
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Those stats are roadkill lazs and wulfie... to the core.
The main reason EVERY decent pilot's stats are increasing is because of the influx of newbies. Don't present yourselves as the norm in a furball.. you are not. You have those stats for a reason... because so many in that fight get dick for kills.
Anything presented using those stats speaks more as a means to increase them... at the risk of decreasing someone elses. It doesn't prove anything else.
Point is... They can fly anyway they want if the fields are closer together.. I'ts just some kinda sour grapes thing with em to want fields farther apart or... They honestly believe (LOL!) that they are more skilled than furballers or smarter or something and that the stats are conspiring against them.
Lazs, they can fly anyway they want with the fields as they are.. or farther apart. The totally stupid aspect of your theory is you simply assume moving them closer would solve so much... um... problems.. because... um... there are too many people in some furballs now... um... I think... but I don't really want to discourage furballing... but um...
Moving the fields closer together puts them right on top of each other. Please... oh master of all that is "not" strat, but still strategic... tell me how that is in any way a good thing?
AKDejaVu
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deja we do agree on one thing.. we need more fields opposing each other but... the fields also need to be a little closer. I don't know the magic number but a 10% closer would surely help especially if there were more fields opposing each other. Proof that people like closer fields is in the fact that there is allways action around CV's.. that is more proof than you bring to the argument that "leave everything the way it is untill it changes and then leave that the way it is". You allways bring to the discussion...... nothing.
and.. contrary to what you have said.. I am not unhappy with the furballs as they are now.. just the distance and the fact that there aren't enough of em. sometimes it will take 20 minutes for another one to form after a base is captured. Lota false starts and wasted time.
lazs
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No DJ, you are wrong.
Listen, you are thinking I'm using those stats to promote closer fields. I am not.
I am using those stats to prove that if you intend to fly to live, then it doesn't matter how much alt you have.
My k/d and k/s were HALF that 5 days ago, I took up the 190A8 in furballs and in 5 days I doubled my K/d and k/s while my k/t, believe it or not, went down.
So, believe what you want- but when I don't even see you in the arena DJ, then you really shouldn't be commenting on things you don't experience or aren't around to watch.
-SW
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Lazs slaughtered me in a thread? lol
I replied to one of his post in that thread simply because the rest were as kieran said "my mom can beat up your mom" post.. i dont need to argue on that level, i like my IQ where it is, dont need to dumb down.
Besides the point..
In ISLE (or is it SDISLE?) the bases are intirely to far apart, in most cases you have time to climb to 25k, smoke a cig and drink a beer before you see a con. Buy the time you get there you are so spread out that you end up with 6 buddies all racing to kill one unlucky bastard, or the other way around.
Sadly i have to agree with Lazs, cv fights are were its at. I dont care if im the only one comming off the CV, or if its a enemy CV attacking my base its going to be a good experince.. until some nut case suicide bombs it. Just the other night i was having a good time with a light amount of friendlies and a hoard of enemys comming from a CV. It was good fun until they started opening up with all the destroyer guns. At that point i sunk the destroyer, they got close and started with the CV guns. After a few warnings, i decided to suicide bomb the glass decked CV to save the base. But i would have rather kept fighting.
I dont think that they should be much close, maybe 5 miles or so. Make them close, make ACK tougher to kill. But also keep some bases as they are and maybe some farther than ohers, like key bases with resources or HQ's near buy.
Lastly in 90% of the furballs i see people who i have no clue who they are, never seen them in my 200 hours a month of play and they normaly fly in circles until they "merge" with someone and spray and prey and maybe land a kill. So yea if your a decent stick i would hope you can kill this lamer.. stats dont mean much. Someone i hate to agree with more than Lazs, deja.. damn 2 times in one post.
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as usual, you are so full of toejam deja.. Putting fields 10% closer would in no way put them "right on top of each other".. And.. having you explain "furballs 101" or how I fly is ludicrous at best and dishonest at worst. You really don't know dick about either.
Putting fields closer toghether will increase field capture.. do you agree? It will also increase the apparent "participation" in said field capture. the amount of increase will be in proportion (to a point) to the amount the fields are made closer and/or.. in proximity of each other.
Now.. you advocate.. well.. nothing.. Or maybe I missed it? You claim that putting fields closer together would not be good but fail to give any reasonable explanation as to why. You fail to explain how closer fields would ruin gameplay for those who like to get alt before fighting others of their ilk... On the other hand, you claim that farther fields don't hurt furballers getting to a fight (and back again) in the least. You obviously have no concept of what wasted time is to these guys.
And what do you care if there is ack hugging? we have that now with the only difference being that the attackers simply have to fly long to and from flights to get to the ack huggers and then have to play dodgeball all the way home from the timid oportunists of your ilk. That is your idea of "spread out" cherry picking those who have actually fought. I guess in that case that it would "hurt your game" "ack hugging' because ypou wouldn't have so much risk free time to cherry pick.
for amon (my official sig)
Public relations officer and good will ambassador for the BK's. My opinions are law We are not recruiting. If someone dies we will send you an application.
lazs
[ 12-27-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Deja:
Think about this for a second. If field density is sufficient then vulching will be much reduced. Why would most players take off from a capped field if there is another friendly field real close? People take off from vulched fields because they want to get to the action and they don't want to spend much time doing it. The accept the vulch-risk because the reward of a quick fight is worth it (at least I do). Give me a field half the distance away and I wouldn't bother.
Hooligan
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crap, gotta agree with laz on this one :)
then take the new reduced map and reduce by 50% again and put it in CA, talk about a map too big for a room....
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So, believe what you want- but when I don't even see you in the arena DJ, then you really shouldn't be commenting on things you don't experience or aren't around to watch.
I'm there wulfie.. and my stats are a tad higher than yours. Anything else you'd like to measure? I'm up to it.
Of course.. those are just stats and STILL don't mean toejam. You are completely unable to differentiate yourself from the norm. Maybe you just like to see others do it for you? I dunno...
But very few people that enter a furball can boast those numbers. Let them speak for that.
And Lazs,
When my parents wanted to get a new house because we'd outgrown our current one, they didn't move from a 3 bedroom 1200 square foot home to a 5 bedroom 1200 square foot home.. they moved to a 3 bedroom 2000 square foot home and the overcrowding problem was solved.
Increasing the size of the MA to enable more bases to be opposing each other is fine. There is absolutely zero need to move those bases closer together. Dispersing things is what you said was needed... right?
The rest of it just speaks for "lets see if I can possible find some way to make things more to my liking while pretending I'm doing it for the betterment of the arena."
AKDejaVu
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Swulf sorry i missed your point in my last post. Yea i agree that its possible to survive low, if you done that in a 190A8 <S> to you.. nice.
One of my squadies caught me on film from a GV fighting 5 low cons in a zero. I was "in the zone" as i call it where i cant seem to be touched, and didnt get killed. killed one and managed to get separation.
to bad i cant stay "in the zone" :)
Altitude builds a false sense of security IMO. I Also fight HI alt a lot, simply becuase i like hi-alt conflicts, its a different fight. But i dont find it any easier to stay a live up there.
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Putting fields closer toghether will increase field capture.. do you agree?
Absolutely not. You make the arena more dense. Help is now closer. Field capture becomes considerably more difficult. Of course, those totally undefended fields will be a tad bit closer... so some fields will be captured... but when the arena is getting close to a reset and you now have 3 bases 10% CLOSER... you think things are really gonna be easier?
People want "the fight". That's the curse of the MA. That one huge furball with tons of things to shoot at. Every front has one... with a few strat guys fighting amongst themselves in other areas. How will moving bases closer solve that problem? It won't... it just means less time to fly to that furball... a wopping 30 seconds less than the 4 minutes it currently takes.
Of course, it also puts friendly ack 10% closer and vulching 10% closer and additional defenses 10% closer and spawn points 10% closer.
No.. it couldn't possibly have any adverse effects on the arena. A newbie wouldn't be 10% more likely to fly straight to an enemy base to make his newbie straffing run down the runway before inept ack finally catches up to him... it can only do good lazs... because it makes things closer.
You've obviously thought this through so thuroughly that arguing the point is useless. I'll leave you to that special world you like to call home lazs.
AKDejaVu
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Dejavu, you have completely lost yourself in trying to be the self-righteous defender of whoever.
I am saying, as I have been this entire time, that it is entirely possible to fly to live in a furball. I used my stats to back it up. The k/d and k/s mean jack toejam, you are right. But coupled with k/t, which is notably higher than the average furballer, will point you in the direction that flying to live in a furball (higher k/t means furballing, get it now?) is possible. Just because I like to stay down in the mud does NOT mean I am not flying to live or not having fun.
Is it that impossible to understand? Each time you replied to me in this thread, you have given me some roadkill rhetoric that my stats prove nothing. Now before you go saying that AGAIN, you read what I posted here just make sure you have it clear: IT IS POSSIBLE TO FLY TO LIVE IN A FURBALL
And what the hell does this mean? "You are completely unable to differentiate yourself from the norm. Maybe you just like to see others do it for you? I dunno..."
-SW
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Wulfie...
Your stats do not speak for "furballers". You are using them to do that. Lazs stats do not either. Nor do mine.
Can you go into a 5:5 battle and kill 4 out of the 5 enemy despite the fact the other 4 friendlies have been endlessly spraying ammo? I bet you can.
Do you know what a likely target and a dangerouse con aproaching look like? I bet you do. Most furballing right now don't.
Do you think that a con 700 yards in front of you slowly pulling away is a prime target... even though he's leading you out of the furball? I bet you don't... can you say the same for most in a furball right now?
Your k/t, k/d and k/s are not representative of anything. You kill what you shoot at. That is more than most are doing in the MA right now. That boosts your stats.
I do the same thing. That's why my stats can be even higher in every category without having to rely on an overabundance of targets to do it. Yes.. that is including kills per time. 20% higher.
And I know you are a better pilot than I... so why would my stats be so much better? Because I'm flying to live a little more maybe? Because I know how to find a fight a little faster without having to resort to furballs? That has to be it.
As far as what is being "championed"... it is normalcy. I'm getting sick and tired of extremes coming in and arguing for changes based on nothing but personal preferences. So what if these changes are being proposed for an arena that averages 200 players. Its better to risk losing customers than to have a handfull of people not enjoying the game as much as they possibly could.
And its much better to have HTC design entirely new maps to accomodate a 10% reduction in flight time to the nearest furball... because those damn flight times are what is killing the game right now. :rolleyes:
Yep... I'm just the self-righteous defender of whowever...
AKDejaVu
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It means, SW, that he is suggesting you are posting your numbers for the "Oooh, ahhh" effect from the crowd. In short, not because you are taking a stand, but you are bragging.
I don't happen to believe that, and I could post stats that verify your stats, but I think that clarifies the statement well enough. I know that I have had more fun furballing (with the occasional strat break) than I have had in a long time. Maybe just me.
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Again you missed it, I am not using those stats to make a point of changing the arena.
I am using them to make a point that if you fly to live, you can and you can do that in a furball. In this case, it's me. Yes, my stats prove that I can fly into a furball, get 2.2857 kills, land, do that again, die, and repeat. I can get .0022 kills/(whatevertimefactor) and I get 4.7407kills before I die.
So, again, I will repeat, my stats prove that you (I) can fly to live if that's my goal and it can be done in a furball.
I stated nothing more and nothing less.
-SW
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Interestingly, I used to be the guy that would climb to 25K to kill that lone Lanc porking the base. I would notice streams of fighters heading out of our base, ignoring the buff. I would struggle up, 2/3's of the time kill it, land, re-up, and climb to the next buff. Not very fun, but I felt I was serving a need. One day I thought, "screw the buff, worst that can happen is the base will close." And I was free.
Now I just go and fight. Occasionally I will still climb, but I won't do it as a habit. The nail-biting action of slowly creeping up a buff's tailpipe while he rapes a field is more than my poor heart will take.
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deja.. as hooli says.. with more field density people won't up from a capped or vulched field they will leave it to the field capture and move on to another better fight or take off from a field further back to try to recapture.. It happened that way in WB.. It is obvious to all but you that it would happen in AH.
arguing with you is sensless because you get a "leave everything alone" stance that is your own little special world. A world where you will allways be forced to espouse the next status quo and the next and the next. Each time pretending that the current status quo is the be all to end all.
closer fields will not "solve" anything. Except.. they will make life a little more enjoyable for those who like to have some action for their time on line. I also believe that they will add to a sense of "participation" for more people but that is simply my opinion.
you claim that 30 seconds each way is no big deal out of 4 minutes.. watch your second hand for a minute or two. and watching that second hand is every bit as exciting (and less frustrating) than flying to the only fite or flying home from it.
lazs
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Originally posted by Kieran:
Interestingly, I used to be the guy that would climb to 25K to kill that lone Lanc porking the base. I would notice streams of fighters heading out of our base, ignoring the buff. I would struggle up, 2/3's of the time kill it, land, re-up, and climb to the next buff. Not very fun, but I felt I was serving a need. One day I thought, "screw the buff, worst that can happen is the base will close." And I was free.
Now I just go and fight. Occasionally I will still climb, but I won't do it as a habit. The nail-biting action of slowly creeping up a buff's tailpipe while he rapes a field is more than my poor heart will take.
Hear, hear! I'll never forget the day when, in another forum, I read Badz' words
...I don't make the mistake of
trying to defend the base, because I don't care if we lose it or not, it's
just a convenient target magnet :)
The scales fell from my eyes, and I was happy again. Now I do try from time to time to make the climb, and I occasionally take a Ta-152 up to ruin some buffer's day, but now if the base dies, I just go somewhere else. If enough die, I just log and read a book.
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closer fields will not "solve" anything. Except.. they will make life a little more enjoyable for those who like to have some action for their time on line.
Hmmmm.... you were right on target then strayed considerably.
You are simply arguing circles. Moving bases closer will make field capture easier... so people can just come up from a different field... but they'll still get to fights faster... but from farther away... but... wait...
There needs to be space. Distance between bases is not for the sake of consuming time... it is for the sake of insulation. When you remove that insulation you save time ... but you are simply forgetting why it was there in the first place.
I'm not against changing the game. I am against changing it to cater to the whim of a specific group of people.
AKDejaVu
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Actually, Lazs, I do play AH. Granted, I don't play very much, but I do play.
But again..isnt just one field, with airstart, all you want?..I mean, why bother with the landing and takeoff stuff anyway?..it all adds to the time it takes to get to the fight. Just have one field in the middle (A1?), which can't be captured and where all 3 countries can launch fighters from. Viola! Instant furballing.
That is all you want, right?
Daff
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closer?? would you like to receive AA fire from enemy field while taking off???
:eek:
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Shut up and fly, Laz
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I haven't noticed any shortage of "fun" in the MA in any particular discipline. Seems to be lots of "strat" going on with captures and resupplies and stuff. Seems to be plenty of "fly to live" guys around. Seems to be a furball real handy to just about anywhere.
I guess I fail to see the problem.
:)
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Again ...NO!!!
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i'm with lazs on this, though i still think he stinks.
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If it's not broken...
hmm I bet Lazs made it to the Rudes list :)
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Low alt furballs are really great for my KD, KS and KT. I wanna see more of them, because its then very easy to get massive amounts of kills per single flight (no rearm).
Killing and surviving in low alt furballs is very easy.
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My game is to kill lone spits or niks on
theur way home from a furball, where they
prolly jumped a no-e p47 and ho'd a pony to
burn up their ammo. There is a deuling arena.
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Waaa everyone must play my way or I'll sulk waaaaa
Ignore Lazs he suffers from a low attention span, if he does'nt see a plane in his gunsight within 10 seconds of taking off he gets bored and logs off in disgust stamping his lil feet
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I'm with Lazs on this one too.
In AW the fields were roughly half to 2/3 the distance of the average AH field. Gameplay in AW was virtually identical to gameplay in AH.
The main difference was it took less time to get back to the fight once you got shot down. That's a good thing IMO.
J_A_B
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LOL daff and gadfly. Daff don't even play and gadfly thinks that 100 kills in three years (no toejam, really!) is plenty of excitment for him (or anyone else)..
Pretty simple really... the people who claim that closer fields aren't needed are the ones who have no interest in furballs anyway. For them... long periods of inactivity are "fun". Relax... closer fields won't hurt you one little bit and it may even help.. It will certainly increase the enjoyment of those of us who like to get to the fight a little easier.
lazs
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Actually, Laz, I said Less than 100, probably a lot less, and most of those were as a manned gunner in my bomber. Do you want to compare ground targets killed, Hero?
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And, uh, Laz? I didn't say that closer fields are a bad thing, in fact I made that IL-2 mission with very close fields. 2 minutes, and you are in the thick of it.
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Please stop this insanity!
:)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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"Actually, Laz, I said Less than 100, probably a lot less, and most of those were as a manned gunner in my bomber. Do you want to compare ground targets killed, Hero?"
Sure.. Let's compare ground targets killed with 6 fifties only. If I killed it it was 99% certain that I killed it with 6 fifties. And... No plane comes close to killing me as much as say PT boats do.
I would think that 10% closer fields would be a pretty mild experiment that would do no harm to anyones gameplay.
lazs
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and.. isn't IL2 a boxed game with an extremely limited planeset?
lazs
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If 50+ planes is limited, I guess. It comes in a box, but the only offline flying I do in it is when I am designing scenarios for online play.
edited for baggidacio-Just say forward firing 50's are among my favorites.
[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Gadfly ]
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Maybe field distances are the way they are so that:
a) you kinda have to worry about dying because you'll have to fly all the way back.
vs
b) the fact that everybody does'nt have unlimited time to play AH
increase distance, mess with people who can't live in AH
decrease distance, every dweeb and his chog goes into suicide mode because he can up instantly and get straight back into fight.
leave it the way it is, everyone but lazs can have fun
Easy choice imo.
Zygote
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zygote.. LOL yer saying that the fields are far apart to punish people? LOL.. Ok that was a good one.
Now.. seriously.. I think a lot of things have changed since the first maps were made and field distances were set at around a sector distance... We have a lot more fast/late model planes that gain even more advantage from fields being far apart. I don't really think we need to encourage an all late war plane arena that much.
CHogs? who flies Chogs? And... What do you want to bet that I am not the only one who would like the fields a little closer together? Maybe you know something I don't? You certainly don't talk to anyone in my squad or anyone who I talk to.
lazs
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oh and...pyemia has 150 hours online... he lives there... his K/T is about half the average.. He flies around doing nothing for most of his wasted hours on line. He claims to fly to live yet even flying all those hours and hiding from everyone looking for the perfect easy kill... dweeby ol suicide pilots have far better k/D ratios.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1 :
oh and...pyemia has 150 hours online... he lives there... his K/T is about half the average.. He flies around doing nothing for most of his wasted hours on line. He claims to fly to live yet even flying all those hours and hiding from everyone looking for the perfect easy kill... dweeby ol suicide pilots have far better k/D ratios.
Don't think for a second you can annoy me Lazs. Quoting my stats like a pouting child in some pathetic attempt to embarrass me. My immature little friend, this is simply a game, nothing more. I care as little about my stats as I do of your opinions and your suggestions. So go scurry back into your little furball corner and think up a few more silly suggestions for me to laugh at.
Zygote
:(
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oh and...pyemia has 150 hours online... he lives there... his K/T is about half the average.. He flies around doing nothing for most of his wasted hours on line. He claims to fly to live yet even flying all those hours and hiding from everyone looking for the perfect easy kill... dweeby ol suicide pilots have far better k/D ratios.
lazs
Lazs....
I'm just curious...who are you to critique what others enjoy? To stand in judgement and tell others that the way they choose to fly this sim is in someway less than adhering to your doctrine of play.
To have an opinion and voice that opinion is what this community is about...to filabuster and make fun of others is just plain selfish.
The reality is that HT will do what he feels is best for his business, which most likely will be what the majority here enjoy. The fact that you would like fields closer together effects me in no way whatsoever as should the way I fly effect you.
Live and let live...and remember, you get more with sugar than vinegar, at least in my experience.
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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Who am I to critique others fun? Sorry but the way I read pyemias post he was claiming that he knew what was fun and that no one but me would enjoy anything else. What I did was point out what both of us ACTUALLY do in the arena. Everyone can decide what kind of an arena they want. They can look at who is saying what and place value (or not) on it by how close it matches their idea of fun... My contention is that most people will not find yours or his or gadfly's or daffs or some of the others idea of fun all that great.
Now if he took offense and got all defensive about that then he has no one to blame but himself. I didn't create his stats. I didn't make him claim that everyone liked to fly his way and... His post is condencending and insulting every bit as much as anything I said.
If I flew 51's or other late war planes in a timid manner then certainly... I would not like the fields closer together.. I don't know how many people like to fly in what way but I bet if the fields were closer then the average K/T would increase. Why would it increase???
Because, even tho people could still play sky accountant and hide and seek to their hearts content... They wouldn't. I contend that MOST people want to get to the fight a tiny bit sooner.
If you both would have said "look, I like to fly like a timid little girl so I don't like the idea of closer fields" then everything would have been fine.
lazs
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Oh... in case you forgot, this is what he said... "decrease distance, every dweeb and his chog goes into suicide mode because he can up instantly and get straight back into fight.
leave it the way it is, everyone but lazs can have fun
Easy choice imo.
Zygote "
lazs
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Plane Usage
Lazs
------
F4U-1
F4u-1C
Pyemia
------
A6M5b
B-17G
B-26B
C.202
C.205
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
F4u-4
F4F-5
FW190A-8
Gunner
Hurricane IIC
IL-2
La-7
Lanc
M16
M3
Me262
Mosquito Mk VI
N1K2
Ostwind
P-47-D30
Panzer
PT Boat
Seafire
Ship Gunner
Spit 9
TA152H
Typhoon IB
Yak-9u
I fly nearly everything. I do what I please, when it pleases me. From 262 to Spit to 202. I've even managed to get +2 K/D dogfighting in IL2. Timid sky accountant?
Lazs why don't you take your army of furballing friends and go frequent the DA? Plenty of room for you in there.
Zygote
:(
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Hmm... with the possible exception of the 202 and the zeke... You seem to have a penchant for flying better performing planes than I and doing worse (i fly the 1a into furballs and the 1c about .02% of the time against GV's when I get pissed). I don't really care but..
You claim that you are flying to live (course in other threads you are a brave, devil may care pirate of the air). Any of the planes you choose to fly except maybe the A8 would be an improvement in a furball over my `1a but... I like it. It's about medium performing and a challenge for me.
Still... the fact remains that according to your own stats... that out there for all to see.... It is apparent that yu enjoy flying around for long periods of time doing nothing... It is also apparent that you have nothin.. er, lot's of "dispossable time" on your hands.
now.. it just seems to me that MOST people would rather have an arena that accomadated my K/T and time online than yours or, gadflys "less than 100 kills in three years". I do not believe that most people enjoy flying around doing nothing or being B&Zed by late war planes.
lazs
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lazs
i gotta disagree with you because of ack . closer fields will mean more ack running, plus closer availability of respawning. when the enemy is able to respawn only five miles away, engaging in the type of low alt dogfight that i enjoy is impossible because if you take the 30 seconds needed to finish off a con the one you killed 30 seconds prior will already be in the air and at 3000 ft, ready to kill you.
when someone is killed, they should be removed form the equation for a while. so mabye closer fields would work IF when you died you could not instantly respawn from the same field. you could insta respawn somewhere else, but not from the field you previously lifted from.
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Originally posted by some fool:
Hmm... with the possible exception of the 202 and the zeke... You seem to have a penchant for flying better performing planes than I and doing worse (i fly the 1a into furballs and the 1c about .02% of the time against GV's when I get pissed). I don't really care but..
Hmm well lets see Lazs
Lazs--------------Pyemia
K/D---2.4---------K/D---2.3
K/S---1.4---------K/S---1.4
K/T---0.0023------K/T---0.0014
Hit%--0.0769------Hit%--0.0781
Kills-234---------Kills-581
Death-95----------Death-222
Looks roughly the same to me Lazs. Your K/T is significantly better but giving the fact that I fly bombers, goons, drive gvs while you do nothing but furball and the fact that I frequently am logged on while afk that is to be expected.
You are proven wrong again, but that is also to be expected.
Zygote
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Pyemia ]
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BTW Lazs, you specialize in 1 particular plane (F4U), 1 particular type of plane (Fighter) and 1 particular type of combat (furballing) and you have been playing this game considerably longer then I have. Your stats should reflect this.
They dont, do they.
Zygote
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I smell a Duel coming up!
Post the film! Post the film!
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zig.. we are not talking putting the fields on top of each other here. We are simply trying to chop a minute or two off the flight time for a round tip. No big deal really. right now we have ack hugging because of the long distance and fear of being vulched all the way home... being able to "run to the ack" will actually increase confidence and let people venture out... more "meeting in the middle".
pyegote... you really do have a hard time understanding don't you? Yours and my stats are not really important to this thread except for the K/T.. Your K/T indicates a method of flying that most would find boring and a waste of time. You indicate that you fly to live but even flying as you do and being as cautious (what else can you be doing in all that time) you don't really do all that well.. like me, your survival rate is mediocre. If you fought like I do it would really be pitiful. Now...
You fly hundreds of hours a month.. you live on line. You undoubtably have to put your plane in autoclimb and hide or you couldn't eat or have even minimmal hygene. Most of us have lives and are in the GAME for fun and action. We don't want to put things on auto and go do life. We play the game a little and then QUIT and go do life.
lazs
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Oh.. and I believe that your and mine K/T stats were for fighters only and have nothing to do with you flying "goons" or bombing. When you are flying fighters you are doing nothing twice as much as I am. You are happy with that I am not. I believe most would agree with me. Most would find your style and living on line unsuited to them. What you do would be boring to most. The MA is proof. People go where the action is.
lazs
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Hmm what about a map lets say 5x5 miles with 1 airbase in the middle which would have 3 intersecting runways (1 for each country and intersecting in order to allow vulching for players already rolling because chance of taking off would not be very high). :rolleyes:
Oh My God! Wake up! Drop this topic once and for all and do NOT (never ever) bring it back! If you want neverending furball go somewhere else this is Aces High do you get it?
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Lazs you show yourself the fool yet again.
K/T means nothing unless the comparison is made to an identical aircraft with identical combat parameters ie. friendly # vs enemy #, altitude etc, K/T will obviously vary with different types of aircraft would it not. K/T in a F4U will be greatly increased to that of a 202, 109 or IL2 simply because the F4U is an much better TnB aircraft.
The fact that you fly furball in a furball plane doesn't mean I can duplicate your results in a 202, IL2 or 109.
And yes your right, I used fighter stats only so bomber, Gv etc should be disregarded.
Imo K/T is a gamey stupid and unrealistic stat. K/D is much more representative of skill in the MA. Kill streak being the ultimate measure imo.
IMO furballers rely the least on skill in the MA and instead focus on the sneak kill. IMO 2 of 3 kills in a furball is obtained when someone runs out of E after a turnfight and the scavengers (like yourself) dive down and kill it. The other kills are the newbie kills that so frequently find their way into a furball. All in all on a scale of 1 to 10 in relation to difficulty, I'd give furballing a 4. 10% skill, 60% vulching and 30% roadkill.
Try killing a real stick lazs and get outta the newbie furballs bud. 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 is much more difficult.
Your a girl and you will be until you fly like me :D
Zygote
:(
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btw - I'm married with 2 young children, I work as a teacher for WSITAFE (computer programming, building and upgrading), NCC (various software packages) and NVAL (various software packages). I also build custom pcs for special clients.
I have a large extended family, I travel regularly as part of my job and enjoy life to the fullest.
So what were you saying about having no life Lazs?
:D
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Ok...seems simple enough.. the people that disagree with me are mbirdm, gadfly and daff and pyegote... Oh wait, he left.
mbird seems a little borderline too... bet with a little push...
lazs
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Lazs Lazs Lazs.....
Ya know, for a brief moment, I thought that you were starting to whine regarding this furball K/T fields closer so I can have it my way thingie. You are most certainly not whining, just ranting.
Is there a real problem for your style of play such as not enough furballs or too few bandits per furball? You wouldn't just be trying to start something here on this sacred ground would you? :)
Well, this should make ya happy...our squad is in 38's this tour and we will find you when online and participate in this furball thingie which you feel carries a higher stature in the MA.
Now, having said that and being a sky accountant to boot, what will it say when a skilless bunch of number crunchers like ourselves, come to your backyard and ruin your fun...or will you enjoy yourself more so due to our presence? Wait....I know your answer already...you could care less what we do or where we do it?
We shall see :)
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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promises promises rude.. seriously... sure come join the fun. would be great if you got into the spirit of the fur. Bet you guys would have a lot of fun but ya gotta loosen up a little. Hopefully, you will see what I mean. One or two minutes off a round trip would improve things without hurting anyones fun.
Rant? maybe.. I don't know. I really am having a lot of fun especially with all the arena density but... I could use a little more fun. Closer fields would cut down on a lot of problems as would having fighters available longer at fields or WAY tougher CV's..
Right now... bombers are basically milkrunning. They are talentless and annoying. They come in high over a field where everyone is much lower having fun and they hit nothing but a couple of leantoo's to stop everyones fun.. very little effort for so much effect... Stop em? come on... who would bother? Why should someone have to waste their time while everyone else is having fun? No real reward for killing a bomber except helping out gameplay for everyone ELSE.. Even kieran has forgone that dubious pleasure to join in on the fun. Who ya gonna get to "cap" fields while everyone else is having a good time?
CV's? Great place for real action but... A lone P47 can ruin a good CV battle that took 20 min or more to get going by simply making one no talent suicide run.
lazs
[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: lazs1 ]