Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Curval on September 29, 2002, 02:43:11 PM
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We just got back from a birthday party of a child in my eldest's class.
I am traumatized.
My son was desparately trying to fit in with the girl whose party it was but some slightly older kids were there too. The little girl wanted to play with the older kids, and as it was her party..and her cousins...she was allowed to join in. My son was not. The girl would frown at him and turn away when he tried to speak to her....one of the older boys punched him in the stomach to keep him from trying to tag along.
I wanted to take all of them and lob them into the ocean.
The mother of the little girl is a good friend of my wife's now...I told my wife that the only way I would let Trew play with her (outside of school) was without her cousins. My wife seems to want to brush it off as "kids being kids" but I could see the pain and hurt in my son's eyes today.
It really freaked me out.
Advice from parents PLEASE!
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Let it go Cur... kids will be kids
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Dont' worry Curval, wont be long till the girls will be fallling for him and he'll be whoopin the boys arses.
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Its easy for some to say "dont worry about it, and kids will be kids", but it's not so easy to see your own child treated that way.
Consider this, even though the host child was just a child, she should know enough not to let other guests be treated so mean. She is obviously not a friend of your child, and this being the case, I wouldnt think its necessary for you child to be required to play there. You are absolutely correct in not wanting your child there when the older cousins are around. Those cousins are mean, poorly raised childern.
Overprotection is one thing, not letting your child suffer mean treatment and abuse is another.
I agree with you 100%.
dago
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I am not a parent, but I was a kid until a few years ago so maybe my advice can be worth something.
Do like those national geographic journalists; observe but dont interfere unless they are gonna do some serious physical harm to him. Let him learn on his own that there are jerks out there.
If you interfere all the time its gonna be daddy to the rescue every time he gets in a tight spot.
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It just freaked me out.
Probably relates to my own experiences and the need for me to protect him.
I didn't interfere today..only to say to the wife that I am not going to "subject" him to those kids if I hear any more nonesense is going on. There is no need. The kids weren't really the problem. It was more their parents that I am actually upset with. The wife completely understands and is 100% supportive.
My kid isn't tramatized at all by the incident, he's a tough little guy.
Just me.
;)
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back when i was a youngn , some big kid that lived down the block hit me, i walked in the house crying, my dad said "whats wrong?" , i said "rudy hit me" , my dad asked" did you hit him back?" , i said "no" , dad said "go back out there and hit him back" , so i went and hit rudy (more than once) , this time the big kid went home.
not sure how that relates to this thread, maybe teach your kids early to be self-reliant and depend on them selves because your not always going to be there?
anyway i like to tell that story, my dad was like that, when i wanted my first bike he made me earn 1/2 the money by mowing lawns and washing neighbors cars.
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Heh John. I just told my kid the same thing the other day. Never be the one to hit first as a kid but always be the one to hit last.
Curval. Those experiences form the child you want to be a man. Sometimes, parents have to take a step back and let the child however painful it may be to them, form their own conclusions.
Better they learn the feeling of mistrust with their peers at that early age in that manner, than a far harsher lesson later on when they are older because they were sheltered and protected all their lives. That pain you feel is your own as a parent. Not his.
Your boy may feel bad now. But its a lesson that will pay its own dividends later on.
Let kids be kids. Theres a purpose for it.
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kids will be kids, and if their parents don't step up to the plate and make them act properly they will continue to act that way for the rest of their life. age does explain bad behavior but it doesn't excuse it.
the kids aren't the problem here. it's the parents who refuse to teach their kids proper behavior. often making up lame excuses for failing to deal with their little monster. "it's her birthday, I don't want to upset her" what a perfect opertunity to teach the little brat how to be a polite host.
as far as what you could do about it. take your kid and leave. to make your kid sit through this kind of degrading crap (not to mention being hit) will only teach him to be a doormat or worse just pack him full of presure and issues till he can explode and be a new problem for somebody else.
it would be embarassing for some to make a scene by leaving (particularly your wife it the parents are her freinds) but to have your kid go through this and watch his parents do nothing just teaches him that he can't count on you for backup and that he's on his own in this world. it's not somuch the crap he deals with that will cause him problems, it's watching his parents accept it.
these situations are hard for new parents but you can't avoid them and you have to act. if you want your kid to trust you and listen to advice in the teenage years you better teach them young that you are on their side, and they can always count on you.
good luck
apathy
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Jeebus, what apathy said!
Life's can be toejamty enough without engineering a crappy situation to "toughen" your kid up. What a bunch of malarchy.
Sheltering and protecting your child, what a novel idea. :rolleyes:
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Curval - its much worse being in the observer position. Helpless as you may feel watching this happen, your son thinks less of it than you do.
By the same token, he probably feels worse about you seeing it than it actually hapening... kids are on a constant quest to make their parents proud - just dont overcompinsate - he will know the difference between support and pity.
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Saurdaukar, you have no idea, what so ever, what Curval's son thinks or feels.
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Noone saying throw your kids to the Lions Thrawn. But you cant be with them 100% of the time either. Somewhere along the line, they learn valuable painful lessons on their own.
Better they learn it at a kids party than at the back of the schoolyard with some bandana weilding maniac with a knife.
Mistrust is not always a bad thing.
Or is that knife weilding maniac with a Bandana ? LOL.
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spook, you're right you can't be there 100% of the time and you can't shelter them from the world. advirsity builds character and all the other miserable truths of the world.
however when your kid is in a crapy spot and you are there, he should know that you have his back. he should know that you wont accept people treating him like crap, and neither should he.
when my son came home with with situations like this (he's almost 18 now). I'd give him advice like, the world sucks sometimes learn to live with it. or tell him how to deffend himself and when it's ok to hit (inspite of the whole 'no excuse to hit anyone, ever.' crap the teach in schools now). and also stuff like if people act like this they are a-holes, so what if they don't like you they're a-holes anyway.
but if I'm there and the other kids parents are there, and nobody calls the kids on their behavior then I stand up and tell the parents to get their little animals under control. I don't care who I offend, there is nobody who's opinion of me is more important than my family. and when adults sit there and ignore this kind of crap they give a fom of 'silent consent'. they teach kids that it's ok to treat people that way. and they teach your kid that it's ok to be treated that way.
if you're a parent there is something you need to realise. you need to keep it in mind every day. maybe even write it down on something, so you see it first thing every morning.
kids are learning all the time. even when you don't know you're teaching.
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Agreed Apathy. Im not argueing the point as their are no hard and fast rules to Parenting and situations lead to different solutions, including pulling on brats and their parents.
In one sense Curval, you will have to do it the hard way the way we all did. No book can tell you and no parent always wise.
Do what you feel is in your gut at the time. (Murder aside :) )
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Curval... how old is your son?
I tend to agree with Apathy. In that situation I'd grab my kids and leave.
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Well I aint no father yet but I think kids who get into fights should just get mad win or loose and get over it. Just part of life ,always best to move on afterwards.
Oops not trying to sound like its ok someones kid got sucker punched but kids fight all the time. Its natures way of providing the parent a reason to intervene and do whats best for his/her kid.
:rolleyes:
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Well I have 6 of the little buggers, I have always let the kids come to me and talk out their problems.
After they have let it all out we discuss what I can and cannot do to help.
Most times the problem is over by the end of the discussion.
I would never encourage my kids to hit another kid back over one punch, more than that justafies self defense.
Just make sure they no the difference between turning the other cheek and letting yourself be hurt.
I think you are on the right track Curval
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It's sounds like some of you think childhood is supposed be some sort of darwinistic test. Some seem to think that by letting your child go through lifes trial on their own will teach them to be able fend for themselves, be self relient and have more confidence. This is completely incorrect. Cripes, where do you get these ideas?
What teaches your child confidence, is having their back. Giving them a sense of security helps them grow. From that sense of security they can explore the world. If they never have security they become scared of it. Because they just don't see the world as a safe place. I mean hey, if you aren't safe with the people you love and who's job it is to protect you...
I suggest you all do a google seach on children and self-confidence, before you spout off your non-sense answers to a very serious question.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Saurdaukar, you have no idea, what so ever, what Curval's son thinks or feels.
Here's a hearty "diddly you" for Thrawn. Who the hell are you? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Here's a hearty "diddly you" for Thrawn. Who the hell are you? :rolleyes:
Am I wrong?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Am I wrong?
Mr. Blue Skinned Admiral...
I offer my opinion... key word there... at no point during the course of reading my post should you have come away with the idea that I "knew what Curval's son was thinking."
I bring my own experience to the table here, as was requested. In a situation like this it is often MORE traumatic for the parent than it is for the child.
Im not sure what goes on in Canada, but down here, us damn uncivilized Yankees run around beating eachother up as children. Children are used to this. Does it make it good? No. But children lack a key quality when they are young - loyalty. Kids will sell eachother out left and right, just as Curval's son's lady friend did to him. The older kids are simply "cooler" to hang out with.
I am unaware of your age, but perhaps you are forgetting your childhood? I am still young enough to remember most of mine, and when "incedents" like this happened to me, I can remember being more upset that my parents were upset than over the actual ordeal.
Kids are pretty resiliant, I dont think you give them enough credit... either that or you listen to the opinions of bleeding heart shrinks who think that every child will commit suicide by the age of 9 if he isnt cuddled with for at least 2 hours a day.
Furthermore, Im not sure why I get the impression from your post that you think I am insensitive to Curval's plight. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly which part of my post you thought warented your response? I saw my opinion as doing nothing but good - Im not sure why you took it the other way.
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"he will know the difference between support and pity."
That one.
I don't give Curval's son any credit. I have never met him. I have no idea how he, as a unique individual, works. So I will go with generalities that are common to most children as they have been proven through scientific meathods.
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Thrawn, we are putting childhood in a broad sense into the dynamics of human behaviour.
Why does man search for sex? Because he is made to procreate.
Why does Woman have headaches? Because man wants to procreate.
Why do children fight? Because we are nothing more than animals and all animals create a pecking order. From small children to the elderly. Its is not a conscious decision or one of choice. It is a genetic behaviour inherent in us all regardless of race, colour, creed, religious persuasion and stock of parents.
A good parent does not allow his/her child to suffer any trauma no matter how small without paying some attention and noting response.
Should a parent intervene because their young child got snubbed at a party by another child? That is the question.
In my opinion there are several choices.
a) Get in there, grab the kid and leave.
result: Kid knows mum and dad will be there to protect them against anything and anyone. Parent becomes the problem and tries to do it everytime the child has a problem to solve. Child becomes dependant on Parent for choices and problem solving. Other children note it in his/her behaviour and mannerisms and act accordingly.
You end up with a 16 year old kid who is ill prepared to deal with the sharks in the gene pool and probably a child without any leadership skills.
(note probably.)
b) Watch and do nothing.
result: Child gets an emotional battering. Sees parent do nothing. Loses self esteem as stated above.
Always BAD.
c) Watch, listen and learn. Sit down and ensure child understands what has happened.
result: Child endures trauma. Child learns. Self Esteem kept in check by parent. Child stands up for his/herself next time or learns to ignore and walk out.
Bad initially. Beneficial in the end. The kid could be the next president or Prime Minister of a country.
Conclusion:
Is all of the above possible?
Yes and No. Kid "C" could end up as Kid "A" and vice versa etc etc.
To make a decision without actually being there is like predicting the winner of a horse race before it has happened and advising your friends to place all their money on Horse X. Invites disaster.
Is Thrawn right? Maybe. Am I wrong? Maybe. Everybody else? Maybe.
What is the answer?
Who knows.
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Sandman...my son is three. The kids who clocked him is six.
Guys...calm down. I posted this thread because "I" was traumatized by the incident. My son shrugged it off and we left a few minutes after the incident. He actually wanted to stay and keep chasing the little girl around. He didn't seem to notice the dynamic that was going on...in terms of wanting to hang out with the older cooler kids and the fact that they didn't want him to...I did.
The biggest reason that I was freaked out is that I had a serious "parental moment"....a realization that my son is growing up and is soon going to face all kinds of nastiness...much of which I won't be around to see as he will be at school when most of it occurs.
I want to protect him from all of it...but I am a realist in that I know I can't.
As far as any future bullying goes...I will deal with that. I plan on enrolling my son in Aikedo class in about 6 months. I want him to develop a sense of confidence from it...not the ability to "kick ass". It took me many years to learn to stand up to bullying, and that 95% of the time a bully will back down when their bluff is called. This will help him have the confidence to call that bluff...and be able to back it up should the necessity arise...which will only be a LAST resort.
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These threads crack me up!
I raised 4 and I am sure I will be mentioned in some tell all book about how I screwed up their little minds by missing that soccer practice in 1987, or not smiling quite right at the school outfit she picked out.
C'mon people. All of life is a learning experience. Use what happens to your kids to mold their reactions to the next hurdle. There is no one best way to do anything. Love your kids and do the best you can.
There are 2 things our children need -
Wings and Roots.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
There are 2 things our children need -
Wings and Roots.
I understand what you are saying, but I just had a funny image of a bunch of kids stuck to the ground flapping their wings like crazy.
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Originally posted by Curval
Sandman...my son is three. The kids who clocked him is six....
As far as any future bullying goes...I will deal with that. I plan on enrolling my son in Aikedo class in about 6 months.
You stood by and watched this? You should have jumped on the six year old and pummeled him. And Akido is expensive. It'd be cheaoer to buy him a gun or, if that seems too extreme, get him a tazer gun and pepper spray.
Curval, all kidding aside I know the parental moment you describe and I know the feeling of helplessness a parent has watching a child deal with that kind of stuff. Kids can be cruel. Akido is a good idea but Taikwando has a very well organized system of tournaments and is an Olympic sport. Luck, bud.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Akido is a good idea but Taikwando has a very well organized system of tournaments and is an Olympic sport. Luck, bud.
The thing I like about Aikedo is that it is totally non-agressive. It teaches the kids to use another persons momentum and power against them. I have watched a little Korean woman throw a 6'5" around the dojo one time..all by using the forces that were being attempted to be used on her. It was really impressive.
Add to that the fact that Aikedo, from what I have seen, is much more diciplined. You must be extremely respectful to the sensai and other students.
It's all good though.
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Geeze.... you named your kid Trew and you are wondering why the other kids won't play with him? get a grip man.
OTOH..... it will build character in grade school. My name is Doran so I know a little about this. Look how well adjusted I turned out!
lazs
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I always figured if I had a boy I would name him Nancy-Alice, for that very reason. That or Astroboy.
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Curval,
I once made the mistake of waltzing up to a defense tactics instructor, who is a blackbelt in Aikedo, and asking him what he was going to teach us with the nunchuckas that were sticking in his belt.
In the next igna-second, I was on my knees screaming.
Bolts of high voltage electricity were shooting up my arm from the 'chucks clamped on my wrist. It was that fast. Later on in the course this same guy knocked me out cold (by accident)
Thats all I know about Aikedo. :D
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About being a dad, I've learned that you do not want to make the mistake of trying to "fix" all emotional pain your kid experiences, lest they fail to learn to fix themselves when the inevitable happens. Be there for them, yes, but don't try to shield them from all pain.
I liked the line from The Long Kiss Goodnight - "Life is pain. Get used to it." Of course, that is an exageration, but there is truth in it. Good luck, Dad. :)
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Thanks for all the thoughts guys. Trew had a great day in school today...and is no longer interested in Amanda...the little girl who he was chasing. He now has a new girlfriend apparently. Her name is Caroline.
The kid is a chip off the old block.:D
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Curval, I recomend some KungFu also. No Karate, Karate is for breaking wood, KungFu is for breaking skulls.
KeeeaaaaPOW! little Billy fell like a brick. Woudlnt you be so proud a father.
:D
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I am so glad I'm past the grade school fight age with my kids.
When my kid was in 1st or 2nd grade he had a kid in his class who picked on everybody. The kid was supposed to be 2 grades higher but was held back twice (I have no idea how the hell you get held back in kindergarten or 1st grade). Anyway since my kid was the biggest in the class (except for the Neanderthal who kept getting held back) he was a prime target (so the bully don't feel like quite so much of a punk I guess). The kid would come up and throw a punch then when the other kid would retaliate the victim would get in trouble. The teachers kept on about how you are supposed to just take it and yell for help, but their system didn't seem to stop the problem (imagine that).
So finally I got fed up and asked my son.
"If he hits you and you shove him away, what happens to you?" - "I get in trouble for fighting."
"If he hits you and you hit him once what happens?"- "I get in trouble for fighting"
"If he hits you and you beat him bloody, what happens?"- The light comes on in my sons eyes and he says, "I just get in trouble for fighting like all the other times"
So I say "right, get more bang for your buck, if your gonna get in trouble anyway make a point with it."
My son started boxing at the community center at the age of 5. By the time he was 7 he worked out with the team, kept up with guys who where 14-20 in the calisthenics and ran about 2 miles a day (usually coming back in the front 1/4 of the crowd).
So I told him "next time the kid hits you- and only if he hits you- you don't yell this time, keep your mouth shut and hit him as hard and fast as you can until he goes down. Then put your hands in your pockets and step into the crowd. And no matter what anybody says they saw just keeps saying, "did you see him fall, man, he tripped and fell hard."
Anyway so that’s basically what happened.
The kid hits my son. Josh drops low and pops him on the diaphragm and as the kid doubles over hooks him to the temple with a left. So the kid goes down face first, bent over at the waist, no hands out face-plant on the tile. Out cold, lots of blood.
And my boy cheers real load and says "YA, I HIT HIM, SO WHAT, MY DAD TOLD ME TO"
So I get called to the principals office. Talk about a real treat trying to explain how sometimes boys have to fight. And the only way to stop a bully is for a victim to fight back. And I'm explaining it to a woman teacher, woman school counselor, and a women principal.
It only took about 10 more trips to the office before we got everything straightened out. But from what I heard from my son, and a conversation with the counselor (that she said she would deny if I repeated) that kid calmed down quit a bit after that. I know he wasn't a problem for my son again anyway
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Curval, Aikido is a great consideration, good call. you can also look for Jeet Kun Do. The nice things about these styles is that they are still an art, not some sport that they have to win.
As he grows up there are more chances that he will stilll love it, if he goes to a good school, avoid the so called "Belt Factories". Taikwando will get boring and repetitive over the years.
Martial arts are a great way to strenghten the body and specially the mind.
Do him a favor and try to find ways to always keep him interested. Martial Artists who have been practicing since early childhood sometimes seem like the most level-headed persons with amazing peace of mind in almost all situations.
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Jeet Kun Do isn't a martial art. It's a philosophy that can be used in all martial arts.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Jeet Kun Do isn't a martial art. It's a philosophy that can be used in all martial arts.
I obviously mean Kung-Fu. Jeet Kun Do is the style of Kung-Fu created by Bruce Lee, it is very dynamic and great to keep the interest of young kids. It is also 100% applicable to self defense and street fighting.
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LOL Apathy..great story.
Animal..keeping him interested is step 2..."getting" him interested is gonna be step 1. I don't want to force him to go, but I really really want him to; I think the best way might be to do it with him. We shall see.
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Sure, go with him and learn it with him, that would be even better, it would strenghten the father-son bond if you go thru the long and ardous learning process instead of watching him struggle from a bench.
Best way to get him interested is Bruce Lee movies and stories but hes a bit too young for that. Why dont you start taking the classes and get good at it, and when hes about 4 or 5 you can get him in? That way he will slowly gain interest from watching you practice, and when he starts, you are gonna have a head start on him, to help him practice and keep the interest.
You just need the cojones to go and learn a martial art at your age, on your own :) (though its never too late)
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Originally posted by Animal
I obviously mean Kung-Fu. Jeet Kun Do is the style of Kung-Fu created by Bruce Lee, it is very dynamic and great to keep the interest of young kids. It is also 100% applicable to self defense and street fighting.
Here is what Bruce had to say about it.
" To set the record straight, I have NOT (Thrawn: the caps are his) invented a new style, composite, modified or otherwise; that is, set within distinct form and laws as apart from "this" style or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from cling to styles, patterns or moulds. So do remember the term Jeet Kun Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which we see ourselves. The name brand is nothing special."
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One funny thing I have noticed in life, the parents who most often are saying "kids will be kids" etc. are the ones who's kids are the bigger ones in the fight.
dago
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ok
Originally posted by Thrawn
Here is what Bruce had to say about it.
" To set the record straight, I have NOT (Thrawn: the caps are his) invented a new style, composite, modified or otherwise; that is, set within distinct form and laws as apart from "this" style or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from cling to styles, patterns or moulds. So do remember tht hte term Jeet Kun Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which we see ourselves. The name bradn is nothing special."
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Bruce Lee developed a technic called the wheel of the dragon. I saw a video of him using it when he landed a roundhouse on someones skull. It was said to have developed 400 lbs of pressure. Na Im just kidding, I made it up. Bruce Lee was cool though.
:D
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Wazi, whatever. Anyways, I feel that self defense is important and everyone should be able to self defend themselves. Aikido is probably the best of the martial arts for that sorta thing. I wish I knew some Aikido.
senna <-- despite training, not a good hand to hand fighter. prefer guns.
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what i have noticed about martial arts is that a group of guys who would be bellybutton kickers if they never studied anything.... go out and "teach" a bunch of pasty faced nose pickers the "art" and tell em "now that you are a deadly tool grasshopper, you will not need to engage in fisticups" they tell them this because young grasshopper is no more deadly than when he came in except... he thinks he is. which is not a minor thing in and of itself.
lazs
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Here's my take:
The child who did the punching should have been brought aside and explained that violence is NOT the answer, and he should have been disciplined (Time out, whips, whatever...)
Then, after the party, I would explain to your son that everyone in the world is not a friendly as he, and some people just have "bad days", explain to him that what the other kids did was not meant to hurt him, and tell him that he will ALWAYS have a best friend to listen, play with...that being YOU.
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I have really enjoyed reading this post as a new parent of twin boys and someone who has pondered these very issues. Thanks for sharing folks.
In the discussions of martial arts the only one I was not familiar with was Lazs who mentioned "Fisticups". What sort of cup does it involve? I played quite a bit of football during my school years and as a lineman often employed a "Fist to Cup" technique. I got to be pretty good at it and was only ejected one time. That having been said, I never realized someone had elevated it to the level of an art.
:p
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It sucks to be the smallest...until they realize you can bust out a 6-minute mile in track. ;)
His day will come, just make sure he doesn't do unto others as they have done unto him.