Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on September 29, 2002, 04:09:08 PM
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I was listening to an interesting report from a BBC correspondant at Bagram Airport in Afghanistan. He'd just got into the camp there and started talking to a clean-cut group of US Army personnel fresh from the States.
He asked them:
"How do you feel about being out here?"
To which they replied:
"We're committed to succeeding in accomplishing our objectives, and are unified in our determination to see the job through."
"How long are you going to be here?"
"As long as it takes to get the job done, sir."
Watching all this were a pair of experienced veterans, sitting in a humvee. As the correspondant walked past they called him over and basically said "Do we really have to go through this roadkill?" They then showed him a small card, with a series of questions and answers, detailing how to tackle the media. A couple of the answers matched nearly word for word what he had been told by the first group of soldiers...
What are they afraid of and is this common in the US armed forces or just Afghanistan?
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Jeebus, news isn't news anymore and information isn't information. It's all just PR and spin.
War is peace, POWs aren't POWs. American citizens are foreighn combatants. One precautionary landing is serval forced landings. Nike IS sports.
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after viet-nam all military treat all media as hostile, and rightly so.
just look at the reporter's question"how do you feel about being here?" he was looking for some one to whine 'i wana go home" so he could get a sound bite.
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Welcome to the machine.
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When the media can learn to report the truth and avoid its own spin for the purposes of whatever agenda it may seek, then the military may allow its soldiers to drop the cards.
That will never happen.
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Bagram Airbase, Afghanistan...
Q: How do you feel about being out here?
A: I wanna kill the bastards who murdered my brother at WTC!
BBC newsroom room later on...
Leftist news amazinhunk #1:
Oh no we cant have them saying that old boy. That would be showing bias towards the US side, lets go interview Hafez bin Hassad el Talibani the Al Qaeda recruiter in London for an unbiased opinion of the war.
Leftist news amazinhunk #2:
Right on! Good show old chap get to it.
Would this be better Dowding? Damn what the hell is your diddlying problem. Look if you hate the USA or our armed forces so much why not get your hateful little bellybutton down to the Finsbury Mosque and sign up for good like all the other Jihadis....
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Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
When the media can learn to report the truth and avoid its own spin for the purposes of whatever agenda it may seek, then the military may allow its soldiers to drop the cards.
That will never happen.
You mean when all of the media reports eactly what the government wants then to.
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Why are these being refered to as "idiot cards" and when are we finnally going to invade Canada? :rolleyes:
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lol two twits from canada and the united euro telling us how it ought to be.
take your skirts off and join up so we can see what you have to say when the media asks you questions. Oh wait I've yet to see your government allow the media ask any of the troops where ya'll are from questions yet.
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Originally posted by Mr. Blonde
lol two twits from canada and the united euro telling us how it ought to be.
Who is the other Canadian?
take your skirts off and join up so we can see what you have to say when the media asks you questions. Oh wait I've yet to see your government allow the media ask any of the troops where ya'll are from questions yet.
What?
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there should have been a comma after the word twits
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Originally posted by john9001
there should have been a comma after the word twits
Ah!
Would like to point out that the UK and Canada have been the US's closest supporter's since 9/11.
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what GRUNHERZ said
Dowding
are you calling the US soldiers idiots? Or just the US Armed Services in general? :rolleyes:
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Media doesn't play quite as big a part in war as you might think.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Ah!
Would like to point out that the UK and Canada have been the US's closest supporter's since 9/11.
Thats UK, Canada and...........Australia.
Our little island is still bigger than you :)
Not sure who these "twits" are either. Im ex-Regular Australian Army having served in 2 Corps.
Since Vietnam, the media have played an enormous role in reporting War. There are many ways in which they are involved.
One includes the Public perception at home, (Government alliance or opposition for Thrawn ;) ) and effectively a soldiers will to fight.
Can a Soldier serving in a dangerous region afford to question the right and wrong of what he/she is doing there? Of course, all soldiers do. The media tho through biased reporting to sell rather than support could cost that soldier their life, an army a battle, a country a war. Our combined countries have already seen that happen.
Does the Media have a positive aspect?
Yes. When controlled (more anti government propaganda influence Thrawn lol) such as the Gulf war.
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The media are profesionals. They are trained to get information and turn it into news. Like a crack lawyer in cross-ex, they are experts at turning what you say into what they want you to have said. I don't hold a grudge against them for this.
When I was in Navy Intel, we were prohibited from talking to the press. I don't know if this was common in the military, but we were told several times that we didn't have any comment on any thing. I understand that, because I was a representative of the United States Military, and as such, I was obligated to uphold the opinion of the United States Military. Since I couldn't be expected to know that opinion on any given topic, it was best for me to make no comment at all. Now, if only I had a card that informed me of that opinion, I could have given it.
Would that make me an idiot?
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Mr. Blonde
lol two twits from canada and the united euro telling us how it ought to be.
take your skirts off and join up so we can see what you have to say when the media asks you questions. Oh wait I've yet to see your government allow the media ask any of the troops where ya'll are from questions yet.
Im the second canadian twit.
you know those canadian soldiers that your f16 bombed, you know why those canadians were there in afganistan to get bombed?
your pathetic.
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Those soldiers should have just said
"we're looking for wedding parties to bomb"
"hopefully we can find some hospitals and nurserys to hit as well"
"Then we'll prolly end off with gunning down some innocent families."
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"You know those canadian soldiers that your f16 bombed, you know why those canadians were there in afganistan to get bombed?"
Pongo why does Canada even have an army?
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The media usually has a little bias, but for the most part it just exposes what is going on.
U.S. media showed in Vietnam that even though VC and NVA were getting killed, it was costing American lives and was having little effect on the war effort. It also showed that alot of civilians were being killed.
U.S. media in Somalia showed that a small contingent of U.S. forces was grossly outnumbered and under-equipped. If it werent for the media, that idiot Clinton may have gotten even more soldiers killed.
U.S. media in Afghanistan showed that F-16 pilots high on amphetamines disregard orders and bomb friendly troops.
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This should look familiar to a couple of you older guys :)
We are here at the request of the South Vietnamese government.
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Originally posted by easymo
This should look familiar to a couple of you older guys :)
We are here at the request of the South Vietnamese government.
Hmm, at least there are some people with perspective left... anyone else see a whole boatload of similarities between 1960/70's Hippee's and some of these "enlightened" extrahunks?
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Active military are not allowed to have an opinion. They are paid to do a job, not to ask questions.
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Was it Grenada where the U.S. landing was filmed by U.S. media- which was standing on the landing site, watching the marines come ashore right at them?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Active military are not allowed to have an opinion. They are paid to do a job, not to ask questions.
It appears that some here think that civies aren't suppose to have an opinions either.
I think you'll find the other sheeple elsewhere.
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I guess I should explain that we where drilled to use that phrase, if captured by news weinies. I never had occasion to try it. I did once use the phrase; Get the diddly out of my way, or I will blow a hole in your leg. That one worked very well. I suggest it to any young servicemen out there.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Was it Grenada where the U.S. landing was filmed by U.S. media- which was standing on the landing site, watching the marines come ashore right at them?
Somolia
-Sikboy
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I love ya, Easymo. Funny stuff.
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Ah. Now there would have been a perfect application for Easymo's line.
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I would just like to say that I'm might be off base. I need to give this thread some thought and will post after I've done so.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
It appears that some here think that civies aren't suppose to have an opinions either.
Regardless of what people on this board think, Sandy's point remains. The Average serviceman is not trained to talk to the media. In my opinion, a good reporter would have the average serviceman (including myself) saying the exact opposite of what we wanted to say.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Thrawn
It appears that some here think that civies aren't suppose to have an opinions either.
I think you'll find the other sheeple elsewhere.
Civilians can have whatever opinion they please. If they want one from the military, they should ask the CINC.
As active duty, I'd never answer and try not to resent the question(s) and the questioner. Any reporter thats been around the military (long enough) knows that soldiers are not encouraged to express opinions. So.. they either get nothing for an answer or some knucklehead gets in trouble for opening his mouth when he knows damn well that he should have just shut up. The reporter is a parasite looking for a story. That reporter doesn't give a toejam about the admonishment the soldier will receive for speaking. It's all news.
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Look, as a coach I have had the opportunity to talk to the media. A lot.
They always get it wrong, almost without exception. Whether I am imperfect at expressing myself, or they have decided what they are going to write before they speak to me makes no difference. Wrong is wrong. In my lil' podunk world it doesn't matter much, just a few angry parents and kids. In the real world, some reporter itching to make a name for himself (Geraldo Rivera? Connie Chung?) is liable to do grievous harm to the career of an otherwise promising recruit, not to mention the damage it does on already strained U.S. military perceptions around the world. No way it's worth the risk.
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Yeah that's what I was just thinking about. Every news story I've had personal knowledge has been completely screwed up.
Still a fan of a free press though. Not all reporters are bad and someone has to watch and report events to the masses. All part of a healthy democracy. It's not a soldiers job to keep reports informed. But it is the job of the report to find out what is happening and report it to the public.
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yellow journalism
n.
Journalism that exploits, distorts, or exaggerates the news to create sensations and attract readers.
it's all we got.
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Originally posted by Kanth
yellow journalism
n.
Journalism that exploits, distorts, or exaggerates the news to create sensations and attract readers.
it's all we got.
Not here. You think there are abolutely no ethical new sources in the US?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"You know those canadian soldiers that your f16 bombed, you know why those canadians were there in afganistan to get bombed?"
Pongo why does Canada even have an army?
Same reason that the US does. To make sure that idiots like you have the right to talk trash to your betters.
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I think the ethical ones stay small potatoes and so the majority don't read them. (because they don't know they exist)
not sensational enough to expand their operations and get prime time.
so, no, that's not what I think ;) it'd be like saying there is no life except on earth.
Originally posted by Thrawn
Not here. You think there are abolutely no ethical new sources in the US?
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Firstly, "idiot cards" was the description the US soldiers gave to the cards - they seemed a little pissed off with them. Or maybe I was trolling (also known as trawling, in real English?)? Playing that card gets you out of anything on this board, including open racism or extremist views of any flavour. It's certainly is a great wildcard.
But no, I was serious.
Secondly, I was just curious regarding how media relations had been handled in previous conflict - wars these days seem less and less to be about the actual conflict and more and more about how the government wants to perceived to the voters.
Thirdly, I have nothing but respect for the US personnel out there, no matter the politics behind their deployment.
But just for you Grunherz, just so it makes you feel better, let me say I actually do hate America and all Americans and I wish you would all die in some horrific WMD attack so that a new Socialistic British Empire could rise again and take over the world in a velvet conquest that would rid the world of evil and make everyone a happy bunny.
You utterly comtemptible arse.
It's ok, I was just trolling. :rolleyes:
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Dowding
Well you must understand how I could get the wrong impression about your hostitilty towards America.... Indeed your constant posts of support and encoragement of our self defense have simply passed right over my simpleton head.
"What are they afraid of and is this common in the US armed forces or just Afghanistan?"
And you cant get away with this statement Mr Jihad. It clearly implies that you have personal feelings they are are trying to hide something or attempting to mislead the public at large about their, the US military forces, true motives for the war in Afghanistan. Coming from you I'm sure it must have something to do oil, cheney, suppresion of electric cars, and the mysterious black helicopters. :rolleyes:
Allahu Akbar Dowding!
Pongo why are you so resentful at the accidental death of your Canadian military men? Was it not an accident? Several americans died due to fratricide in the Afghan war. You arent trying to say it was more than an accident?
And my question about the Canadian army was meant to be sort of ironic. I have a hard time to imagine who would want to attack Canada, a very quiet nation apparently at these times - and by many recent posts it seems that you very left wing government seems to think the same and is letting your forces rot on the vine. Just came off wrong I wrong I guess due to my history of arguments with you regarding my UN bashing.
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Indeed your constant posts of support and encoragement of our self defense have simply passed right over my simpleton head.
Where does it say I need to agree with everything the US does/has done or with the policies of the current administration?
I'm constantly amazed by the fascist undertones in your rhetoric, Grunherz. Unanimity of thought, the view that it is possible to hold incorrect beliefs, pathological fear of anything left-leaning - it's really quite alarming to observe someone airing their neuroses in public.
And you cant get away with this statement Mr Jihad.
Do I need to even pass comment? Pathetic? Imbecilic? Stupid? All succinctly describe that particular snipe.
. It clearly implies that you have personal feelings they are are trying to hide something or attempting to mislead the public at large about their, the US military forces, true motives for the war in Afghanistan.
It clearly implies nothing of the sort. The only thing clear about it is a desire to avoid certain sound bites being given by personnel - you could describe the upper echelons of command being 'afraid'; I wanted to know how prevalent this had been in the past. It really is as simple as that.
But paranoia is a terrible affliction.
I'm sure it must have something to do oil, cheney, suppresion of electric cars, and the mysterious black helicopters.
Strange. I don't think I've ever mentioned those things in discussing Afghanistan. I've never even discussed helicopters, black or otherwise, on this board. You must be confusing me with someone else - have a good long think about it, and get back to me.
Allahu Akbar Dowding!
lol! You couldn't even spell it right. Am I supposed to be Hawaian as well as an Islamic fundamentalist? Alloha!
Keep going Grunherz. You're doing a brilliantly self-aware hatchet job on yourslef.
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"The only thing clear about it is a desire to avoid certain sound bites being given by personnel - you could describe the upper echelons of command being 'afraid'; I wanted to know how prevalent this had been in the past. It really is as simple as that."
And what would you want them to say? Do you think it will be another victory for your types like Vietnam?
As for the spelling "Allahu Akbar" I have heard both "Allah Akbar" and "Allahu Akbar", however I will defer on this issue to you as a certified London trained jihaddist.
Why on earth do you have such a hateful attitide towards the US army? Did one of our boys steal your girlfriend? Was your daddy a US GI who abandoned you? Why? What has the US army ever done to you? I am all for somemewhat irrational hatreds as I certainly hate the UN peacekeeping forces but at least I have some reason for it based on their pitiful performance in my old country - they let thousands of innocent people die right infront
of their noses. But your hatred even I dont understand....
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People who wear their ignorance as a badge on their shoulder are two-a-penny on this board. But you, Grunherz, positively revel in it. Perhaps it would have been interesting to me to compare certain individuals experiences of Vietnam or any other conflict with those in Afghanistan re: the media? Ever thought of that? Of course you didn't.
Since you're now openly accusing me of hating the US military (something I find both extraordinary and laughable at the same time), I'd like you to point out exactly where I have said this. Perhaps you might include a few quotations. I'm interested, really I am.
BTW, you might like to know that the CO of my MA squad is currently a servicemen in the USAF and a good friend. But wait a minute, if I'm the same person as you like to paint, I should hate his guts, right?
The world must be such a confusing and disappointing place to you, Grunherz - it never quite fulfills your ridiculous stereotypes or pigeon-holes, does it?
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Of course it doesnt, but it makes it fun...
Anyway If you dont hate the US army then whats the point of this thread? It seems that you are trying paint them as bunch of liers or at least morons who are forced by the leaderships issuance of the cards to hide the truth.
So go ahead and explain this quote...
"What are they afraid of and is this common in the US armed forces or just Afghanistan?"
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What's the point of this thread? Apart from a forum in which you could project your insecurities? Well, that was just a bonus (to you, of course, not anyone else reading... we've heard it all before). I was genuinely surprised that media relations were so orchestrated as needing to have cards printed. Call me naive, if you want. I therefore wondered how it had been in the past.
As for your question - I thought the answer would be obvious. What are is the command afraid of to take so seemingly drastic measures? I'd be interested to know if this was the first conflict these 'idiot cards' (their description not mine) were used in.
So where's the proof that I hate the US military? Or is that another side-stepped issue to add to all those others contained in this thread?
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Well just recently I came across a US Military Pamphlet written up just at the end of WW2 outlining exactly how US GI's should interact with the German population during the occupation, including instructions how and what to tell them during conversations - basically to be firm and professional towards them and not buddy buddy. I guess thats the same as these cards. Were they idiots back then too?
The way you posed the question makes me think you harbor hatred and contempt for the US army - thats why I accused you of it. Thats all the "proof" there has to be, your apparent attitude.
As for my insecurities. You bet. You see I have not always lived in a comfortable wealthy nation or in home with microwaves, TVs, telephones, gas/electric stoves and all the amenities of modern western life. You have by all appearences, and you have no idea or fear or even the possibility in your mind of experiencing the alternative. So it all must appear very strange to you that I react easily and agressivly to some things.
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I guess thats the same as these cards. Were they idiots back then too?
Firstly, we're talking about journalists and correspondants not the population of a conquered enemy. I was aware of written guidelines for the latter case, but not the former especially guidelines which include possible questions and suggested answers.
Secondly, the term 'idiot cards' is neither a term coined by me or applied by me in this case. It is a term commonly used to describe cue cards used on members of the public to pretend they have some sort of spontaneous, but agreeable, comment on whatever they are being asked. They are often used in advertising.
For the millionth time (you really need to brush up on those reading comprehension skills), the soldiers called them 'idiot cards' not me. Comprende?
Thats all the "proof" there has to be, your apparent attitude...
That's your interpretation (and your problem). Not mine.
Frankly, I couldn't care less about your history, Grunherz. I probably would have sympathised once, but your never-ending vitriol is wearisome in the extreme. If you can't handle what people post here without descending into an apoplectic rage (a common occurance, although we simply have the vitriol in this thread), I wonder why you bother to read the O-club.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I would just like to say that I'm might be off base. I need to give this thread some thought and will post after I've done so.
Now dont go throwing out that perfect record of consistancy you have ;)
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I wonder too....
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I'm just surprised anyone with even a passing knowledge of the military would even raise an eyebrow at such a thing.
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Well Dowding the enlightened progressive surely wants every soldier to be in touch with his feelings and conduct Oprah sytle interviews with unbiased non-USA hating BBC reporters...
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
What's the point of this thread? Apart from a forum in which you could project your insecurities? Well, that was just a bonus (to you, of course, not anyone else reading... we've heard it all before). I was genuinely surprised that media relations were so orchestrated as needing to have cards printed. Call me naive, if you want. I therefore wondered how it had been in the past.
As for your question - I thought the answer would be obvious. What are is the command afraid of to take so seemingly drastic measures? I'd be interested to know if this was the first conflict these 'idiot cards' (their description not mine) were used in.
So where's the proof that I hate the US military? Or is that another side-stepped issue to add to all those others contained in this thread?
OK, you are naive. It seems likely to me that many reporters would try to imply that one soldier's opinion is representative of the lot. After all, why is he being interviewed, the uniform right?Maybe Joe doesn't like sand and sun but I do so why should he speak for me.
If there is going to be an opinion publicly stated then it should be that of official policy, hence the 'idiot cards'. Of course there are other reasons, some more obvious, but you seem to want to focus on the divisive.
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Still, naive as I might be, no-one has answered my original question and the point of the thread. Have these cards been distributed in the past? Or is this a new phase of military-media relations?
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last time I've seen a journalist trying to interview some soldier it was quite fun :
Journalist to soldier1 : what do you think of .....
soldier1 : I've nothing to say ask my officier
.
.
.
Journalist to soldier2 : what do you think of .....
soldier2 : I've nothing to say ask my officier
.
.
.
.
Journalist to soldier n : what do you think of .....
soldier n : I've nothing to say ask my officier
.
.
.
Journalist to officier : what do you think of .....
officier : I've no information for you at this time
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: no need for "idiot card" ;)
btw in france one of the nickname for the army is :"la grande muette" which I would (badly) translate as : "the non-speaking"
rotfl ... Altavista translate in a quite humorous way : the large dumb woman :p
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Still, naive as I might be, no-one has answered my original question and the point of the thread. Have these cards been distributed in the past? Or is this a new phase of military-media relations?
I was never issued a card but was advised on a couple of occasions as to how to respond to reporters questions. Did I find it irritating? Yes. Did I understand the need for it? Yes.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Hmm, at least there are some people with perspective left... anyone else see a whole boatload of similarities between 1960/70's Hippee's and some of these "enlightened" extrahunks?
I'm sorry. Did we move to a totalitarian country that frowns on dissent? Those Hippies and these "enlightened amazinhunks" were and are allowed their oppinions BECAUSE of America not in spite of it! What the hell do you think we are protecting? Buildings? Sheesh!!!
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too easy :p
Originally posted by straffo
btw in france one of the nickname for the army is :"la grande muette" which I would (badly) translate as : "the non-speaking"
rotfl ... Altavista translate in a quite humorous way : the large dumb woman :p
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Dowding-
To state the obvious, perhaps the cards themselves are new, but the spirit of the cards is not. Either way I'm not sure why this is so important to you.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm sorry. Did we move to a totalitarian country that frowns on dissent? Those Hippies and these "enlightened amazinhunks" were and are allowed their oppinions BECAUSE of America not in spite of it! What the hell do you think we are protecting? Buildings? Sheesh!!!
Every US citizen enjoys the free speech guaranteed by the Constitution. Military personnel however have limits placed upon the exercise of this right.
Furthermore, civilians may be contrary to the point of subversiveness while the military cannot afford this luxury. Where would we be if the US military were not strong and unified both in fact and as perceived by our allies and enemies?
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Nice thoughts Iron, however I wasn't commenting on the freedoms of our military. I was commenting on the knee jerk reactionaries coming out of the woodwork.
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Misunderstood Tahgut. :)
(edit - added)
BTW, my where would we be question wasn't rhetorical. Correct answer is.......France (ducks and runs) ;)
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It's not important to me, Kieran, but out of idle curiosity I wondered if it was a new development. There seem to be a few people here who claim to be ex-military or are currently serving, so I thought they could fill me in.
Is that ok?
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Let me check... one sec... ...
Yes. That's ok. This time.
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dowding
Originally posted by john9001
after viet-nam all military treat all media as hostile, and rightly so.
just look at the reporter's question"how do you feel about being here?" he was looking for some one to whine 'i wana go home" so he could get a sound bite.
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Why thankyou, sir. I'm much obliged. ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
I was listening to an interesting report from a BBC correspondant at Bagram Airport in Afghanistan. He'd just got into the camp there and started talking to a clean-cut group of US Army personnel fresh from the States.
He asked them:
"How do you feel about being out here?"
To which they replied:
"We're committed to succeeding in accomplishing our objectives, and are unified in our determination to see the job through."
"How long are you going to be here?"
"As long as it takes to get the job done, sir."
Sounds exactly like Soviet servicemen were supposed to journalists as Michail Leschinskiy back in 1983. WTG USA!
For me it's another proof that current US regime is heading towards total control (not exactly control, but the right to interfere everywhere with ideoligical attitude) we had in good old USSR. Didn't some brass hat live in Soviet Union in 70s-80s? They are taking the worst sides of Soviet life without any positive experiences.
Originally posted by Dowding
Watching all this were a pair of experienced veterans, sitting in a humvee. As the correspondant walked past they called him over and basically said "Do we really have to go through this roadkill?" They then showed him a small card, with a series of questions and answers, detailing how to tackle the media. A couple of the answers matched nearly word for word what he had been told by the first group of soldiers...
[/B]
These "veterans" should have got a punishment from political department, maybe even expelled from Party or Comsomol. At least the strict reproof with a notice in personal file.
GH:
Allahu Akbar
Yeah! Miru - mir, Allahu - akbar, zemlya - krestyanam, fabriki - rabochim, voda - matrosam! Slava KPSS!!!
Genosse Grunherz, please, remember that Carl Marx and Friedrich Engels are two persons, not four, and Slava KPSS is not a person at all. :D :D :D
You are brilliant! I hope Serbo-Croatian language has cases similiar to Russian, it will explain a lot! :D
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That was an interesting post, baroda. Now I understand your agenda. It brought some of your roadkill, from the past, into focus.
The U.S. military is there to defend democracy. Not to practice it. They have their own laws (Uniform Code of Military Justice). What they are often ask to do, goes way beyond what any Civilian is ask to do. They are, and have always been, one of the most disciplined armed forces in the would. Their discipline has been commented on by former enemies, repeatedly. Men who wish to remain free are willing to trade their lives, for that freedom. That they are willing to trade their freedom, for a short time in the military, should come as no suprise
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That reminds me about times soviet troops helped to quell the "counter-revolutionary coup in Czechoslovakia" in 1968.
It was nowhere as bloody as Hungary in 1956 - may be because of the lessons learned. Lot of soviet troops on the streets of Prague - tanks, etc. and civilians coming to talk and politely explain to soviet soldiers how they were doing the wrong thing.
Soviets who were brainwashed for 25 years longer that czechs tried to politely explain how wrong the chechs were, the tempers sometimes flared and sooner or later someone get his teeth knocked out.
Very soon the troops received a strict if informal order not to try to persuade the misguided czechs, but to any political question reply with polite but firm "go f-ck yourself". That immediately stopped all kinds of violence and actually helped troops and czechs to get along better.
miko
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I hate you all :p
(for Kanth && Iron in case you have a doubt ;))
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Problem with saying that here is that someone would soon be suing someone else for mental anguish and trauma.
instead, I think they should just take the reporter out into the desert and bury him in the sand with he rest of the turds.
Originally posted by miko2d
Very soon the troops received a strict if informal order not to try to persuade the misguided czechs, but to any political question reply with polite but firm "go f-ck yourself". That immediately stopped all kinds of violence and actually helped troops and czechs to get along better.
miko
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Kanth, how do you propose to be kept informed without the news media?
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Through preludes to the 2 minute hate, Thrawn.
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Dood don't get me started. :)
Originally posted by Thrawn
Kanth, how do you propose to be kept informed without the news media?
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Originally posted by Dowding
It's not important to me, Kieran, but out of idle curiosity I wondered if it was a new development. There seem to be a few people here who claim to be ex-military or are currently serving, so I thought they could fill me in.
Is that ok?
I'm surprised they have crib notes, but censorship is always common in the military. During the 60s-70s they had a ban on what was termed "subursive literature" from any base I was at Stateside. This included any and all anti-war flyers, newspapers, bumper stickers (no "End The War Now" bumper stickers allowed on base) and extended to literature distributed by the United Farm Workers even. (I got gigged on that one).
We also weren't allowed to tell the senior NCOs or junior officers what we REALLY thought, and I got in trouble for that once too. Also forbidden was growing hair, either on your face or your head, and if it was too long you'd get gigged for that too. (Uh...yes, I got gigged for haircuts too. And shaves occasionally, especially coming off a 30 day leave.) Oh, and they made us keep our boots really shiny, and if they weren't shiny enough you got gigged. (hangs head) They gigged me for being a bad shoeshine boy too which is why I never persued that career in civilian life.
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I bet your band was happy you got so many gigs though.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
I'm surprised they have crib notes, but censorship is always common in the military. During the 60s-70s they had a ban on what was termed "subursive literature" from any base I was at Stateside. This included any and all anti-war flyers, newspapers, bumper stickers (no "End The War Now" bumper stickers allowed on base) and extended to literature distributed by the United Farm Workers even. (I got gigged on that one).
We also weren't allowed to tell the senior NCOs or junior officers what we REALLY thought, and I got in trouble for that once too. Also forbidden was growing hair, either on your face or your head, and if it was too long you'd get gigged for that too. (Uh...yes, I got gigged for haircuts too. And shaves occasionally, especially coming off a 30 day leave.) Oh, and they made us keep our boots really shiny, and if they weren't shiny enough you got gigged. (hangs head) They gigged me for being a bad shoeshine boy too which is why I never persued that career in civilian life.
gigged? sure you aren't mistaking you're military school for the military?
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Dowding,
They do not give those cards to everyone... only to a few people. They tell everyone else to shut up. This has been the policy for over 20 years... as have those been standard answers for over 20 years.
You'd think it were silly or stupid if you hadn't been there. You're British right? So I guess you've done two years yourself. Surely you must have had briefings as to how to conduct yourself with the media?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu
You're British right? So I guess you've done two years yourself.
If the British have mandatory service, this is the first I've heard of it.
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Ah.. thought that was the case...
Had a Brit in our unit in the U.S.A.F. Seems he said that was the case.
AKDejaVu
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GH
"Pongo why are you so resentful at the accidental death of your Canadian military men? Was it not an accident? Several americans died due to fratricide in the Afghan war. You arent trying to say it was more than an accident?
And my question about the Canadian army was meant to be sort of ironic. "
Your question was meant to be sort of insulting. and it was taken that way.
I am not resentful about the friendly fire incident. I have been a soldier, in that unit in fact, and I know that the guys that drop the bombs will be the guys that drop them in the wrong place.
I was pointing out to you that we do indeed have a military and we use it to support our political aggenda just like everyone else.
Is it big enough to defend us against china..no. But its big enought to participate.
Funny that you have an opinion about the Canadian military that few people that have worked with us in the field share. When I worked with the US military(Airborne, Marines, SF, Mech infantry) they were typically amazed at the capablilities of our troops. I will preserve that as the real way that the Americans that matter think about the canadian army.
You strike me as a balkan refugee that is working real hard to transplant your hate to the rest of the world so that you can feel normal. I have met a few such people here in canada. Your virilant hate, especialy of the UN reminds me of them.
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Sorry elfensqurriel. I dont think you have been anywhere near a barrecks. I served from Aug of '66 to Aug of "69. Except for basic, I had a mustache the whole time. Also, having shiny objects, about your person, is a real bad idea in combat. This includes boots.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Active military are not allowed to have an opinion. They are paid to do a job, not to ask questions.
LOL..that is sooo stupid.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
Still, naive as I might be, no-one has answered my original question and the point of the thread. Have these cards been distributed in the past? Or is this a new phase of military-media relations?
In all my 14.5 years of active duty service, I have never received any such card. I have been deployed 6 times since 1990.
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Sorry, AKDejaVu, but I haven't done military service. We did have compulsary service back in the 50s, but even my dad was too young for that and he's 54.
BTW, these weren't 'specially' selected soldiers - they had just got off the plane and were awaiting deployment to other areas of the country, or in the case of the vets, had been there 3 and a half months.
It sounds like they are distributed to all incoming personnel and are quite a new development.
Thanks for the replies, anyway.
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ditto, Kier.
two superb troll masters, developing the cast, the lure twitch, and the riposte/recast.
Thrilling to watch, enh?
KURT TANK IS GAY!
ok, now back to the troll...
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Oh, Easymo... Elfie was a REMF. REMF's had shoe shines, creased and starched fatigues and VOLAR lunches.
mustaches were 'legal' but discouraged in most stateside billets. I can still remember my first sergant screamin in my face from 1/2 inch away "YOU WILL NOT CULTIVATE ON YOUR FACE WHAT GROWS WILD ON YOUR ASS!"
I couldn't wait to get the hell outta the army 15 min after I got offa the jet at Travis.
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
BTW, these weren't 'specially' selected soldiers - they had just got off the plane and were awaiting deployment to other areas of the country, or in the case of the vets, had been there 3 and a half months.
It sounds like they are distributed to all incoming personnel and are quite a new development.
I kinda doubt that is actually the case Dowding. If you were in the U.S. Military you'd know why they wouldn't do that. Some guys are great, but some guys would need to hold that card at eye level and read it verbatum.
People are always chosen to be in front of the camera in the military. If you are not, and you give an interview, you'll be up before your squadron commander as soon as the camera is shut off.
There's a reason the "vets" were suprised by this card... they weren't given them and that's why they weren't interviewed.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by -ammo-
LOL..that is sooo stupid.
Maybe it was a bit much... Let me restate.
Military are not allowed to express an opinion, generally. Unless you're someone with lots of stars on your shoulders.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I was listening to an interesting report from a BBC correspondant at Bagram Airport in Afghanistan....Watching all this were a pair of experienced veterans, sitting in a humvee.... They then showed him a small card, with a series of questions and answers, detailing how to tackle the media. A couple of the answers matched nearly word for word what he had been told by the first group of soldiers...
Good for them! If the BBC correspondent really wanted a story, he should've hopped a ride in a Blackhawk and gotten himself air-mobiled into a fire zone like Joey Galloway at Ia Drang. Instead, he ran to the first group of guys he saw at the airport and started spouting off a bunch of tiresome questions to which he got tiresome answers.
I can neither confirm nor deny that the BBC is littered with panty-waisted pretty boys playing war correspondent.
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"he should've hopped a ride in a Blackhawk and gotten himself air-mobiled into a fire zone like Joey Galloway at Ia Drang."
Heh, the military would never let that happen...he might actually show that they're shooting at people!
Daff
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It's sometimes very hard to keep a straight face with some of the wierdo stuff they yell at you.
Originally posted by Hangtime
"YOU WILL NOT CULTIVATE ON YOUR FACE WHAT GROWS WILD ON YOUR ASS!"
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I don't think you read the whole story, AKDejaVu. The vets had the cards too - it was they who showed them to the correspondant. They, like the new arrivals, had been given them before or after (this was never divulged) they arrived in Bagram.
Either way, the Vets had their own cards - they weren't surprised, the journo was.
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I ran into a reporter in a bar back in the 80's. He had been in the RVN. I asked him why they lied about us all the time. He said that they where told to write two kinds of storys. The Lonely Boy Away From Home story. Or storys with an anti war slant. Otherwise they would not run the piece.
So in the end, we all had our idiot cards. Did'nt we?
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Originally posted by easymo
The U.S. military is there to defend democracy. Not to practice it. They have their own laws (Uniform Code of Military Justice). What they are often ask to do, goes way beyond what any Civilian is ask to do. They are, and have always been, one of the most disciplined armed forces in the would. Their discipline has been commented on by former enemies, repeatedly. Men who wish to remain free are willing to trade their lives, for that freedom. That they are willing to trade their freedom, for a short time in the military, should come as no suprise
First of all - it's not "protecting" democracy, it's "enforcing" it.
You have to understand that "democracy" isn't an absolute value. As for me - I don't need any stinking democracy that serves as a curtain for the crap we have now.
About discipline commented by your enemy - it's really funny. I have read reports from Vietnam war. Who are you trying to fool? Song Mi is the most well-known example of your famous "discipline".
Anyway - war is war, and who am I to blame people who live under fire?...
I am surprised that you didn't understand my point. In 1979-89 Soviet soldiers had to answer in a politcaly-correct way (i mean Politicaly correct, corresponding with Party line), because they didn't understand what they fought for, unlike 1945 when they literally could speak from their hearts. The problem is that your soldiers see what really goes on, not the censored TV reports like what we had in 79-89, and they have to be politicaly censored, that, without effective political institutions in the Army, means this "idiot cards" as if your soldiers are imbecilic illiterate villagers, that I'm sure they aren't.
Current attitude to journalists in Russian army in combat (Chechnya and Tajikistan) is extremely bad. People who served in combat in post-Soviet time say that they have to take serious measures so that soldiers don't simply shoot any person with a camera.
The question of "trading your freedom" for military service is a nonsence for me. I didn't serve, I am the first male in my family in maybe 80-90 years who isn't an officer (i had only 2 years of military education when I was in college, unfinished, I was supposed to be a SAM officer, reserve), and I bet that personal "freedom" was not a question for both my Grandfathers, who went to military colleges in 1915 and 1938. Here people volunteer for the Army not because of some benefits.
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This giving up your freedom line that some of your are stating when refering to military service. Im not sure I agree with that.
True there are elements of Military life where you obey and your actions will be those against your personal will and are done on the whim of another, but this is also true in civilian life, is it not?
Personally, I loved the Army. I joined up at the same time as a good mate of mine from school. Where I loved it, he hated it. Within 12 months of completing Basic training, he went AWOL 3 times. I on the other hand, being young, perhaps naive, but excited at the prospect of a career doing this "Army" thing was convinced at the time, I would be a lifer. (Didnt work out that way)
However when I left the Army, I was happy with the Army. I did not serve in a time of war. Perhaps thats the difference, but I did not feel my life was one of servitude or deciscions were removed from me altogether. I made decisions every day, large and small.
I left the Army like most and thought Civvie street would love to have me. Fully trained, disciplined ex-soldier, with pride in himself and a head on his shoulders should be a wanted commodity.
Soon after leaving the Army and scratching around for work in Private enterprise, I realised how damn good I had it in Military life. People around me, getting the sack for the stupidest of reasons. Staff being yelled at by little Hitlers looking for promotion or the boss'es favour and the poor SOB's around me, that didnt have the common sense to put these Bas****'s in their place the first time around.
The Army is a good life. War may bite fat ones, but the military looks after its people for the most part in Peace time.
Don't enter the Army if your not prepared that you train and will be employed in War should the need arise. But dont dismiss the Army in peace time because of it. The Army will teach you things about yourself that few other occupations can.
A Soldier is not a mindless drone. In the modern Army, they are required to question, think and problem solve like never before.
The follow the rules because they believe in a purpose, because an Army to function properly, must have laws and rules. Like all rules, not all make sense. But they follow because they believe.
How many in civilian life believe in their job and would put themselves in harms way because of it?
Im willing to bet the percentage is a damn sight smaller.
Slam the media if you will. Slam the Army if you want to. Lay off the soldier who's sticking it out, doing his/her job.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Maybe it was a bit much... Let me restate.
Military are not allowed to express an opinion, generally. Unless you're someone with lots of stars on your shoulders.
Well, that is better:)
However in my line of business in the intell community, my opinion is asked frequently. I assume, you mean our opinion to the media?
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The american press is free yes, but it's also a competitive profit oriented industry .
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Well, that is better:)
However in my line of business in the intell community, my opinion is asked frequently. I assume, you mean our opinion to the media?
Your opinion on mission maybe, but surely not your opinion on policy eh? At least they never asked us what we felt about policy! lol.
-Sikboy
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I can neither confirm nor deny that -ammo- and -Sikboy shared a cubicle in Langley, Virginia. :cool:
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Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
This giving up your freedom line that some of your are stating when refering to military service. Im not sure I agree with that.
Freedom is somewhat abstract and measured differently by folks. To some being able to live where you want, with who you want, and do the type of work you want is freedom. Some feel that the military deprives them of this freedom and may or may not be willing to make that sacrifice.
I feel that the military does take away some of the freedom that civilians enjoy. However, the sense of service and camaraderie always made it worth while for me. MSgt, USAF Ret.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Your opinion on mission maybe, but surely not your opinion on policy eh? At least they never asked us what we felt about policy! lol.
-Sikboy
Thats because you were a squid:)
LOL, you are right of course. But in the AF world, dealing with mission requirements, my opinion is a part of the puzzle.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Thats because you were a squid:)
LOL, you are right of course. But in the AF world, dealing with mission requirements, my opinion is a part of the puzzle.
Lol, I spent most of my time in the AF world. Sort of a refugee. But I did pick up a sweet air force honey of a wife, so it all paid off in the end
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by easymo
Sorry elfensqurriel. I dont think you have been anywhere near a barrecks. I served from Aug of '66 to Aug of "69. Except for basic, I had a mustache the whole time. Also, having shiny objects, about your person, is a real bad idea in combat. This includes boots.
You had a mustache? One where it wasn't allowed to extend past the corners of your mouth nor touch the upper lip? Yeah, that's regulation. That's a "molester" mustache. How many people in your unit had walrus style, fu manchu or handlebar mostaches?
You can have sideburns, too- provided they aren't any further than halfway down your ear, aren't long enough to touch your ear if combed towards it and don't "flare" at the bottom.
Hair had to be graduated in back and sides instead of "blocked" and couldn't hang down to the eyebrows if combed forward.
Nothing shiny? Sure, if you're in country. Were you in country all three years? Amazing- how did you get a waiver against the prohibition against three consecutive tours? I spent almost as much time spit polishing my boots, shining my brass and yes, even ironing my creases, than I did standing in line at every Stateside duty station I ever had. It's unbelievable you were spared the basic "spit and polish" requirements I and everyone I know had to endure. Why am I reminded of you as Radar O'Reilly in Rosie's getting teased over ordering a Grape Neihi and responding "We don't have shoe polish in combat fella."
I've read your description of yourself as a "biker." Tell me about your Harley Davidson. It's amazing to see 55 year old Viet Vet bikers today. Unbelievable.
I've read your description of your combat experiences and your statement that "killing gooks wasn't personal, it was just business." No remorse, no emotion, you just grimly mowing down "gooks" with your M-16 on Full Auto as you walk through rice paddys? Truly, and totally, unbelievable.
And YOU can read a post that says "Yeah, I was kinda a toejam bird and didn't always act appropiately" written by someone that YOU have always CLAIMED is a toejambird because he doesn't act appropiately and come to the conclusion that he's LYING? Un-FUGGIN-believable.
What do I know about YOU, Easymo? You're a 55 year old outlaw biker who killed people for a business and shrugs it off like a tough guy who never had time to be bothered with military trivialities like inspections and grooming regulations? You must have been part of that Hells Angels Brigade who enlisted and drove their Harley Davidsons up and down the Ho Chi Minh trail, long hair, beard and wearing Angels colors on their denim-covered armor, M-60s mounted on their handlebars blazing away, mowing down the "gooks."
You are unbelievable.
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just testing this acct
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Well where to begin.
I was on Okinawa first. Had a mustache, and had my head shaved bald to boot. They where going to give me an article 15 for destroying government property. But my NCOIC (a black man) had his head shaved, so they backed down. Didn't do any shoe shining, we had houseboys who did that.
Did one tour in Vietnam. Had a mustache there. Had houseboys there as well. They brushed shined our boots, to water proof them. When they where shined at all. Actually or houseboy was a pretty girl. She was always sweeping with this strange little broom that she had to bend over to use. As far as mowing down gooks. I shot at muzzel flash's. I don't know if I was the one that hit any of them, or not. The point I was making, in that post, was that the movies are full of BS. There is no emotional investment made in the enemy. You just shot back.
Ft. Bragg next. Still had a mustache. I was a Spect 5 by then. I was put in charge of a machine room at the induction center. I ran the night shift. No senior NCO's. No officers. I pretty much did as I damn well pleased. I was the Grand Poo Baa in my little comer of the world.
I wont be 55 for a couple more weeks (Oct, 27). My Harley is a 1983 Shovel Head. I built it from a basket case. I still have it. And If you had been around here for awile. You would have seen the pic I posted of it.
And Elfensquirrel is still full of toejam.
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Now, here is one for you elf.
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/6/20/191111
Cragg said, "when the battles at the Ia Drang were raging I was back in Saigon on General Westmoreland's staff. I didn't know then how lucky I was!" Cragg actually served in the military in Vietnam and felt left out because he wasn't in the thick of combat. Others who were never anywhere near a battlefield may feel that regret even more intensely and make up stories to compensate.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Well, that is better:)
However in my line of business in the intell community, my opinion is asked frequently. I assume, you mean our opinion to the media?
Exactly.
Same sort of relationships in Ops also.
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BTW. Back in the early 70's I use to ride with a bike club called the Orphans, in Ventura Cal. A few years ago I heard that they were converted into a chapter the Angles. So, in a left handed sort of way, I guess I did ride with the Angles.
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Easyho thanks for the link, I think it adds some insight into your character. Here is John Easyho...coming home after grimly "taking care of business by shootin the gooks" ...buying a basket case Harley Davidson, spending a year putting it back together, brooding over his experience in Viet Nam, piece by piece...shaved headed, Fu Manchu- mostached Viet Vet bad ass...What was your weapon of choice in Viet Nam- the throwing star or the compound bow with exploding arrows? Sorry, but you are the one telling stories. And you are the one providing the link.
I didn't kill lots of "gooks" like you did, came home and enrolled in a community college because the GI bill paid me 220 dollars a month and that was where the girls were and I basically got on with my life. No delayed stress syndrome, no becoming a biker, no roadkill, raised my family and established my business. My Viet Nam experience doesn't define me as a person, especially compared to so many guys like you who have John Easyho issues you're still dealing with. I'm a parent first, husband second and Christian third. You are a Viet Vet first, Biker second and Bad bellybutton third.
I stated we had personnel inspections monitoring haircuts, shoe shines, uniforms and shaves and you claim you never had a personnel inspection in 3 years in the Army, but you "almost" got in trouble for having your hair TOO short? LOL roadkill!!!!
BTW, I tried to email you privately to offer proof of my service but yours is disabled. Would a DD214 convince you or will you claim it's a phony? (sigh) Sorry John Easyho, but you are no longer worth my effort. You are a punk who cries as you ride your Harley with your "Viet Vet" colors flashing but frankly all you do is make the vast majority of mainstream Vets who have homes and families and who served look bad by your own inability to get over it. Grow up. Trade in the Harley for a Winnebego dude. Get over your bad self.
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I didn't out you elf. You outed yourself. It was bound to happen sooner or later. You cant swing a dead cat around here, without hitting a vet of something. All that mickey mouse, garrison duty stuff, you keep going on about, goes out the window in a combat zone. Everyone who has ever been in one knows that. You just keep proving you have never been in one, by what you post. What the hell your good for a chuckle.
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Post deleted due to the angry nature of my response. I read O'Club for a laugh or a troll, not to get angry over your steady stream of BS. Whatever, easymo, I don't care where you were or what you did, Hells Angels or not. I'll try harder to ignore your name calling and insults and no longer respond to you. Happy Birthday.
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Wait a minute!
I just read Easy's link. And he talks about "outing" Airhead.
Does this mean that Elfen-Airhead is actually Brian Dennehy?!!?
Can I have your autograph?
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LMAO!! :D
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Im puzzled by the reference to being a Christen. Don't they have some sort of rule about bearing false witness?
Oh Well. Elf is a lib. So its probably more of a guide line.