Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ring on September 29, 2002, 05:20:04 PM
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comming soon?
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The Ju88A-4 fills the same spot in the planeset (early war german bomber)
I would much rather have a later war german bomber with better performances and defensive armament like the Do217 or Ju188 or the He177
But thats just MO of course :D
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i know how you feal ring,,{were is the he111?},,,he111 does need to be here,,and was very importaint to ww2,,,sure we all wanna see newer hardly used bombers!!,,but we need the main line ones first,,before we start runing experimental bombers and fighters that were hardly used or produced,,he111 was a good plane and had way better firepower than a ju88 and carried more than a ju88,,ju88 is bad representation for he111,,,,he111 did tons more than a ju88 could dream of doing,,,he111 was used till the 1950s by spain,,good plane no matter what people think of it:)
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Still, for historical scenarios, He-111 is admittably more fitting. Besides, unless AH is going to have an arena with sides divided by Nationality, the Axis forces don't really need a heavy bomber. The significance of Axis heavy bombers is ignorable compared to the historical importance of Allied HBs.
Sp, yeah, sure, why not.
Give us the He-111, Ju87B, Ju87G, Tu-2, Pe-8!!
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funny thing is people keep saying,,give us heavy axis bombers,,,well,,axis didnt have many heavy bombers plain and simple,,and the ones that did come out late,,,were late!!,,and didnt get any use,,and shouldnt be included {unless for perk points or somthing} he111 should be here before ju88,,every sim seems to neglect he111 and liberator bombers,,,i dont know why,,because i bet usa or germans didnt nelgect using these planes on there enemies,,,it was about all they had somtimes,,he111 and ju87 is what helped the german start the war,,ju88 does not represent these planes good
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unrelated, but heres any interesting bit of information i recently read: the He177 actually killed more more germans than allies
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Id love to see the He-111 in AH - Personally I think its one of the most beautiful bomber designs of the war.
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funny!! and people want that plane over a he111?,,shouldnt be what everyone wants,,should be what was really in the air and used:)
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The He177 would be a terrific bomber in AH I think. The reason it was a very bad and dangerous bomber in real life is that the engines constantly caught fire. The whole engine installation was so crappy that it almost looked intentional.
The He111 was an OK plane, the Ju88 was far better though and teh Ju88 is one fast little bomber. The Ju88 S would be nice to have in here.
The He111 is needed to scenarios and special events and the CT.
As for axis not needing a heavy bomber I don't agree with. They need it, both in the MA but specially in the CT, and probarly in the upcoming mission arena.
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only thing better about ju88 was its speed,,othere than that,,he111 out gunned it and carried bigger bomb load,,plus it could fire niffty radio guided missles for ships and a 115mm cannon mounted in place of a bomb load,,,it was a german test platform for lots of wepons,,,wouldnt that be nice for making base runs?,,,b25 had a similar attachment for bomb load,,cannon in its place would be need to see,,stuck right out the front,,mounted in bombay
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If you want a cannon you will want the Hs129. High velocity 75mm instead of that low velocity cannon in the B25 :)
Test weapons won't be modelled in AH, thus many of the weapons the He111 were tested with won't be included. The He111 had slightly better armament, couple of more 7.9mm machine guns, not enough to make up for its speed IMO.
Far worse bomber but needed for special events.
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Actually, speed is what really matters.
Try participating in BoB setups.
The Ju88A is pretty hard to keep up with without enough altitude in the first place. Oh yes, I remember all the whining against how Ju88s were "impossible to shoot down" when the CT got its very first BoB setup :D
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CC Kweassa, and the Ju 88 A4 WAS IN BoB in R/L :)
Fast plane, RAF spitfire pilot reports from WW2 BoB says that the Ju88 was a very hard plane to catch. Me 109 pilots said if they had to do escort duty, they much prefered to escort the faster Ju88.
Ps. Our A4 is missing a 20mm gun ;)
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I still think we need to fill the planeset.
Ju88 is a 1940 bomber so it fills early war pretty well.
The german have the Ar234 but its perked and entered service in late 1944. A mid war bomber would be nice.
The D0217 and Ju188 entered service in 1940 or 1941.
Ju188 is faster than Ju88 with much better defensive armament.
The Do217 has 4000Kg (8800lbs) bomload with good defensive armament and better speed than the He111.
The He177 was alot of trouble but there are no engine fires in AH so it would not be a problem.
The He111 is slower has poorer defensive armament and no more bombs than a Do217 so why would I want it :D
But before we get those we need a Pe2 for Mother Russia ;)
Or a cant for Italy
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Wilbus IIRC the engine problems of He-177 were pretty much solved in A-5 with DB-610 engines.
Oh and He-177 could also carry 50mm or 75m AT-cannon and so did some Ju-88s.
Henschel Hs-129 with 75mm was under powered and over weighted plane, even later versions with French engines.
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I would be "upset" to see HTC spend the time on another early war German Bomber we do not nead it at present what to me are priourities are fleshing out the plane set for Japan, Italy and Russia, producing redundant bomber types paticulary inferiour one for time periouds already represented is imo a waste of time. Granted the He 111 is historicaly revelant and a cool looking plane, howeaver the argument for adding it is primarly one of" well I like it":) so I can understand this point but not back it. When plane inclushion is discused it is always at the expense of some other plane at least in the short term( the update release window 4 to 6 months). The lack of a well developed plane set for the Japanese and Russians, and to a lesser extent to Italians is causing problems in the CT in terms of balenced set up's, personaly I am tierd of subing B 26's for every Russian set we do, adding the TBM to ever pac set up for the Japanese, ect.
Now for simply the sake of argument as to which German Buff should be added, the one that brings the most to table is the He 177. Historical revelence, numbers produced and popularity amongst it's crews are not factors for determing inclushion of a plane in AH. The He 177 in the A5 varient as Staga has pointed out realy solved most all of those problems and was used extensively in the East in the later part of the war in mass aganst Soviet positions, and in the Babby Blitz of 44, although to less effect. This is a game gents and to that end the He 177 is the most usefull of all the later German bombers for use in the MA, best bombload, defensive package and very good preformance. On top of that in any late war CT set up it would have as much a place as any other late war German Buff, the inclushion of which generaly is a gameplay function Just as a Lancaster or B 17 is, how often were any of these used for tactial pourpouses, and In the case of the Lancaster and in part the He 177 during the day.
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The CT could really use an Axis transport too :)
The c-47 IS THE most often-used substiture I believe
J_A_B
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Well a Tabby would be real easy to do, and very popular.
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The He111 had slightly better armament, couple of more 7.9mm machine guns, not enough to make up for its speed IMO.
,,it had a little more than just 7.9 (P-2) 7.92mm Rheinmetall MG 15 machine gun on manual mountings in nosecap, open dorsal position and ventral gondola; (H-3) same, plus fixed forward-firing MG 15 or 17, two MG 15's in waist windows and (usually) 20mm MG FF cannon in front of ventral gondola and (sometimes) fixed rear-firing MG 17 in extreme tail; internal bomb load up to 2,000kg in vertical cells, stored nose-up; external bomb load (at expense of internal) one 2,000kg on H-3 or two 500kg on others; later marks carried one or two 765kg torpedoes, Bv 246 glide missiles, Hs 293 rocket missiles, Fritz X radio-controlled glide bombs or one FZG-76 (V-1) cruise missile,,,,20mm,,everyone seems to forget he111 had:),,its is a cool lookin plane,,and i would love too see it in here,,i never seen one in flight sim,,and germans do need a few more bombers,,why not this great old work horse,,lol
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Tell me more about the "Tabby" Brady. I'm not familiar with this particular aircraft. Was this the Japanese version of the C-47?
J_A_B
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The Ju88 A4 (the one we have) also had a 20mm MG FF in the front. Of course as this is AH ours don't have it.
The Few more 7.9mm Mg's doens't make up for the extremely low speed the He111 had, specialy not compared to a Ju188 (with better aremament then the He111) or the Ju88S.
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He111 would be pointless.
carries less of a load than the ju88a4 we have , has less armament and is slower.
Just what we need for MA! :rolleyes:
what about a Ju188, He177 or do217? at least you could actually damage something with their bomb loads.(if you could hit anything:p )
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Originally posted by hazed-
He111 would be pointless.
carries less of a load than the ju88a4 we have , has less armament and is slower.
Just what we need for MA! :rolleyes:
what about a Ju188, He177 or do217? at least you could actually damage something with their bomb loads.(if you could hit anything:p )
most of planes we dont need for MA, only for historical events;)
Unarmored he111 are easier target then armored ju88
Even year give big technical advence during ww2.
Aircrafts armor, fuel, cooling systems, weapons was changed each couple months.
Im sure, dont need explain evaluation between fire weight of 8x 0,303 cal guns by 2x 20 mm+12mm cannons and guns on spit's
I cant imagine play BoB once again and fight against planes from 1941 year.
ramzey
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carries less of a load than the ju88a4 we have , has less armament and is slower.
ju88 couldnt carry as much as a he111,,he111 carried allmost 7,000lb of bombs,,,more than a b26 could carry,its slower,,but then again,,it carries allmost twice as much on bomb load,,,lol,,and in 1938 it had the record for speed with heavy payloadUnarmored he111 are easier target then armored ju88
,a he111 is armored good,,one of the first to design armor into the plane,,,it was just little slow by the time 1941 rolled along,,but it still served the spanish forces till 1965,,longer than any othere german bomber lasted,,it was a good all around plane
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Originally posted by brady
I would be "upset" to see HTC spend the time on another early war German Bomber we do not nead it at present what to me are priourities are fleshing out the plane set for Japan, Italy and Russia, producing redundant bomber types paticulary inferiour one for time periouds already represented is imo a waste of time. Granted the He 111 is historicaly revelant and a cool looking plane, howeaver the argument for adding it is primarly one of" well I like it":)
Neh ... that's more the argument of adding uber experi-mental bombers and fighters. The He-111 adds more depth simply because it's a decent beginning to end bomber. Not only that, it saw service in the Spanish Civil War and the more planes added that can stretch back that far, the more depth and flexability you add to historical scenario design. About five years more depth since not much in the AH Euro set that can claim significant pre-1942 use (of course I could be wrong and fully expect a plethora of reponses correcting me if so). The more flexibility of design, the better chance of designing a scenario that isn't "Kursk XXVII" part 2 segment b (this time we changed one of the rules on page 47). The He-111 should have been added before the Ju-88.
(Just a visitor trying to contribute)
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The Tabby was the license buitl vershion of the C 47. The Japanese improved apon it it a bit by adding more powerfull engines( higher top speed) and defensive guns including and up to one 13mm MG and 2 7.7mm mg's.
Arlo, in case you missed my point I will restate it for you, I do not feal the priourity right now should be on a new early war german buff, in fact I see no presing nead to add anything new for the Germans, US or Brition. I feal that the Russians, Japanese and Italians nead some attention. any points i made regarding the best choice for the Next German buff were mearly for the sake of argument.
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"The Japanese improved apon it it a bit by adding more powerfull engines( higher top speed) and defensive guns including and up to one 13mm MG and 2 7.7mm mg's. "
That doesn't seem like it'd be too much trouble to add, more like adding a variant than a new plane :) It'd be great for the CT and would doubtlessly see plenty of MA use too (likely more than a lot of AH's fighters heh heh).
J_A_B
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Ya I can see the delama in the Hanger, Hmmmm should I take the slower unarmed troop transport or the faster armed one.......hmmmmm I am so torn whatever will I do!:)
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Originally posted by brady
Arlo, in case you missed my point I will restate it for you. I do not feel the priority right now should be on a "new" early war German buff. In fact I see no pressing need to add anything new for the Germans, US or British. I feel that the Russians, Japanese and Italians need some attention. Any points i made regarding the best choice for the next German buff were merely for the sake of argument.
That's fine so unbunch `em, Brady. This thread was about the 111 so I added my two cents about it. It happened to be as a counter-point to your p.o.v. that the only reason to add it was that players thought "well, I like it." I saw all the other excuses as well and know how you feel about it. I also know that presenting a differing point of view to you when you've got your mind made up is tantamount to whispering to the deaf. My p.o.v. stands. Didn't think it would influence you for a second. You're wrong, of course but that doesn't matter.
But since you mentioned the Russians and Italians .... wait a sec, guess I better ask you if you've got your heels dug in against early planes there too, huh? ;)
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The He-111 should have been added before the Ju-88.
right on the money,,,i dont know why some people are against this plane,,it was popular,,it seen long servis,,,from 1937 till 1965,,and its a better bomber than ju88 besides speed,,ju88 faster,,but it dont carry as many guns or bombs,,i know every time i mention this plane or liberator,a few people{ i wont mention who} jump on me about it,,,,only 2 planes,,and so much grief and fighting over,,when they should be here,,they were used,,they were produced in large numbers,, and good planes:)
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why no He111 pix?
(http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/images/7sept1.jpg)
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW2/He111-46s.jpg)
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/He111-9s.jpg)
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/He111-H6-23s.jpg)
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It is NOT a better bomber then a JU88. The Ju88 is FAR faster, and speed is EVERYTHING. The Ju88 A-4 can carru 6,600 lbs payload and it has a fairly good speed while doing it. It can carry 4,400 in even higher speed (faster then any other bomber we have. except Arado)
The He111 had a couple more MG's but it was a much easier target and it was alot harder to escort. You will see this is we had teh He111 and the Ju88 in a BoB setup. The Ju88 would be able to get in and get out much faster, means less time over enemy territory
Compare Versions:
He111 H-1, H-2, H-3 and H-4 were the ones that saw action during BoB.
The difference main difference between these planes was that the A3 introduced an 20mm MG FF in the Forward Gondola. The bomb load was same for all of them.
Max speed was 435 km/h at 6000 meter (270 mph at 19,600 feet).
Internal Bomb load was 2000kg ( bout 4,400 lbs). The H-4 was the first one that could carry external bomb. If external load was carried a total of 2500kg (bout 5,500 lbs) could be carried. Speed was lower due to external load.
The Ju88 carried as much, and was some 20mph faster. Ju 88 have almost the same armament.
If you wanna go even later in the War the He111 will be even more outclassed by the Ju88 and Ju188. One bomber I wanna see is the Ju88 S which could carry a 2000kg bomb load (4,400 lbs) in a speed of 600 km/h (372mph). Although a quite small load is carried, a few people flying in that speed can hit a field and get out before any fighter can engage it. Only way to actually engage it good will be to dive on it as most fighter don't usually fly around very fast in normal level flight.
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Stupid allied whiners just want an He-111 because they are tired of getting their tulips handed to them by Ju-88's in BoB scenarios. What's the matter guys? those .303's just aren't cutting it?
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Wilbus
It is NOT a better bomber then a JU88. The Ju88 is FAR faster, and speed is EVERYTHING. The Ju88 A-4 can carru 6,600 lbs payload and it has a fairly good speed while doing it. (snip uber argument)
It's not just a case of which plane is more uber and which plane makes MA players drool more. Well, at least not from my p.o.v. It's what makes for a better overall scenario design planeset. If most of the Doom MA arena mindset is the main influence on what planes are added then scenarios may as well concentrate on designing SWOTL style "what if" scenarios and forget about adding real depth and flexibility. Face it, AH's main competition in the online air combat sim communities went against the Doom mindset and managed to pick up quite a major chunk of the scenario minded players by avoiding the late war/uber mindset and concentrating on portraying the earlier, less well known machines in an early war setting.
As far as my pushing for a Spanish Civil War planeset and setting, that was to primarily offer something new and exciting for players to experience ... not just the same ol' "uber fighters chasing down heavy bombers" rut that everyone seems stuck in. But even that, now, was a window of opportunity that came and went since there's another online community that's showing some effort in that area.
Don't get me wrong. From what I've seen (admittedly in a limited capacity) of AH, it is a great game with alot of potential. I just hate seeing the potential wasted. MA may have helped give this game it's start but it's not the end all and be all. Even the most addicted Doom dogfighter is bound to suffer burnout from the same ol' same ol' (with an additional uber plane thrown in from time to time for flavor). Eh ... I've said it before. I could be wrong. But I don't think so. :D
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I am for the addation of Early war planes, Principably I am for the fleshing out of all the countries planes set's and I beleave in the interest of fairness that countries with the smallest planeset's curentaly should be given priourity.
Any further comments I may of had to add about the He 111 have been made so well by Wilbus, that I nead not restae them.
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Originally posted by brady
I am for the addition of early war planes. Principaly I am for the fleshing out of all the countries planes sets and I believe, in the interest of fairness, that countries with the smallest planesets currently should be given priority.
Any further comments I may of had to add about the He 111 have been made so well by Wilbus that I nead not restate them.
Actually, Brady .... I can respect that. And I do. It certainly doesn't help scenarios to have lopsided planesets. So let me apologize for jumping back atcha.
But I still think Wilbus is focusing more on what plane is technically superior to the other and not what plane can actually benefit scenarios more.
Oh well, I'm a visitor in a strange land anyhow. (g)
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There's a thread in this forum somewhere, where Bullethead and I discussed general concepts for expanding the planeset. It covered much of what is debated evertime someone suggests a plane. It startedin a thread about the Mig3 when I observed:
Originally Posted by Sikboy
Therin lies the rub. Everyone has thier own rational for how to advance the plane set. Some Choose National Balance (Build the Itlalian Airforce up) Others choose historical numbers/Role (Build the P-40e) Others choose MA utility (Build the Ki-84) Others Choose Scenario/CT Utility (Build the Mig-3) I think its best to try and find the plane that best fits as many of the above criteria as possible (and any other criteria that might might be suggested).
How does the He-111 fit into this framework?
1. National Balance. Well, the Germans have two bombers, but one is a perk bomber, which if I understand correctly, has seen a dropoff in usage since the new bomber system came out. In this case, there is a case for another German bomber (and I know many have and will suggest other german bombers, but that isn't taken into account at this stage.
2. Historic numbers/role. It is undoubted that the He-111 scores highly in this catagory. This Aircraft was used in large numbers and was a principle in the early war.
3. MA Utility. Not really worth mentioning. This plane fails to meat this criteria IMHO.
4. Scenario/CT utility. This is a big hit here in Cat4. As has been mentioned, this plane is essential to the BoB planeset, and would find a home in BoB Special Events.
Although it wouldn't be my first choice, I think that the He-111 is a good choice for modeling.
Attempts to engage others in coming up with a universal model to evaluate planeset additions proved fruitless :)
-Sikboy
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I am both disussing the technical superiority of the Ju88 and I am discussing this because the He111 isn't really needed at this moment.
My last post was all about telling those who think the He111 was better that the Ju88 was the better, much better actually, plane of the both. However, I also think that (which has nothign to do with the Ju88 being better) there He111 is not needed at this moment.
As for early war scenarios, we have the Ju88, although it would make a better mix with a He111 aswell, I agree with Brady about LW needing a heavy mid/late war bomber so that more detail can be put into late war scenarios aswell.
However, I think that first both the Italians and the Russians needs a bomber each.
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why get upset on a few people wanting a he111 or ju87?,and they do fit in war scenarios!!,,like it or not these 2 planes helped germans get a head start,,at there time they were considered faster than most fighters,,{in 1937 that is},,lol,,,,later in the war things got better and faster,,,but these 2 planes were the work horse of there time,,its allmost like not giving usa the b17,,,the stuka not in a flight sim!!,,,what are you all thinking?,,lol,,one of the most popular german planes in history,,,im not even a bomber pilot,,but time to time i fly them,,,how can you have true historical battles with out these 2 planes?,,,they were used in so many attacks,,how can you have Battle of Britain with out this plane?,,,,well ayways,,just because you dont like the plane doesnt mean it dont belong here,,,these 2 planes out of any german bombers should be here first,,,,,,,,,,,,i beleve some of the othere countries need planes too,,there aint no reason we cant have every main line plane in this game {in time}
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Noone is upset here, and noone has said we don't want it. I want, I want it alot. But just as Brady, I think there are more important planes, such as Russian and Italian bombers. And even when it comes to a German bomber, I think there are more important planes then the He111. I was mostly discussing the performance difference and the superiority of the JU88.
The Ju87 should have been in AH A LONG time ago IMO, a WW2 game can't be called a WW2 game without a JU87.
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Sure, I'm all for adding the Tupelov SB-2 and the Savoia Marchetti SM79 Sparviero as well. Add in the I-15 Chato and the Fiat CR-32, too. Well, at least the bombers. They had a shelf life that went beyond the SCW. The rest'll work if the SCW is ever seriously considered. :D(http://usuarios.lycos.es/mrodval/FAVL21AC.JPG)
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Hyena is your key-board broken or why all those ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ?
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Originally posted by Staga
Hyena is your key-board broken or why all those ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ?
Must be catching. Yours is adding dashes. ;)
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O My God ! He said SM 79, now I must get emotional:)
See my post on this forum on the SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007:)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65464
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Originally posted by brady
O My God ! He said SM 79, now I must get emotional:)
See my post on this forum on the SM 79 vs the Cant Z 1007:)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65464
Yeah .... Cant more uber .... Cant MA. Dammit, Scott, you just don't get it. Cant not in SCW. ;)
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27125
Hehe ... seen your Cant vs SM-79 thang. Knew your position on that already.
Eh .... can't blame a guy for trying ... or Cant ya?
:D
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lol:)
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HE 177 ? you mean that :
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Could be funnier if we could under-stand(sp?) the caption :)
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I will try :)
Last time I posted this kind of picture it took me about 10 message to get something half funny :(
I've showed it to a collegue (frenh too ) at work ...he got only one of the 3 jokes in the captions :D the 2 other passed right over his head
for your viewing pleasure :
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Discovery Wings had a recent episode on the He111.
Seems everyone here has neglected to mention that the Luftwaffe "required" that the He111 be able to dive bomb. (for support of ground troops)
Personally I'm much better at dive bombing than I am at "straight/level, sit still for enemy" bombing.
So I'd probably get more use of the He111 than I do now with the current medium buffs.
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The Ju88 was required to work as a dive bomber aswell, and it was much better at it.
Use the dive brakes and you can dive very very steep in it without getting overspeed in AH.
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The JU 88 is a dive bomber, excelent one at that, deploy tose dive flaps and she huvers:)
The He 177 was also dive capable, seams the Germans were kind stuck on that feature:)
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why not add the IL 4 & pretend its an He111 - planes are quite similar in appearance & preformance
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only thing is he111 carries about twice the bomb load,,but they are close ,both slow and tuff,,,think he111 gots better range
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IL 4 is a bit fast, has less devensive armament than He 111. max load for IL4 was 2500 kg, He 111 could carry 3250 kg, but only w/ RATO. also IL 4 had radial engines and He 111's were inline
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Originally posted by hyena426
i know how you feal ring,,{were is the he111?},,,he111 does need to be here,,and was very importaint to ww2,,,sure we all wanna see newer hardly used bombers!!,,but we need the main line ones first,,before we start runing experimental bombers and fighters that were hardly used or produced,,he111 was a good plane and had way better firepower than a ju88 and carried more than a ju88,,ju88 is bad representation for he111,,,,he111 did tons more than a ju88 could dream of doing,,,he111 was used till the 1950s by spain,,good plane no matter what people think of it:)
He-111 was more of a part of BoB then the Ju-88.People complain that you cant shoot anything down with 7mm.i can its very simple.just point and shoot (not gonna tell where if you wanna know)the ju88 is a good plane yes but we need the He-111.not just cause its bigger cause it played a more vital part in the war.always did and always will.the he-117 HELL NO talk about major crap (sorry my Fatherland!)it was worthless junk.i think most ppl with A/C knowledge will take the he-111 over the 117 anyday.the 111 was the most important bomber for the geramans so we need it.the ju-88 was a better night fighter then bomber IMO.the fact is we need more german light and medium bombers.who cares about heavy ones.unless you a heavy dweeb :p i love to fly bombers and the he-111 has always been my fav.hyena states a good point listen to the man.(thou he is a hippie......yet so am i :rolleyes: )well im done.NOTE: dont want to Pee off anyone or offend.
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The Fact is the Ju 88 was about the best bomber germany had, it was far better then the He111, carried a bigger load faster, speed is always what is most important. The Ju88 also served as night fighter which probarly gives it a more important role in the war.
As for the He177 (not 117 ;) ) it was a good plane with engine flaws. As pointed out before most problems were fixed for the A5 version, it carried exelent defencive armament, good bomb load and pretty fast. Did some successfull raids on Airfields in russia.
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Which is still an uber vs. historical and theater flexibility argument. The He-111 just plain has more on it's resume'. :D
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if we're just looking for a LW bomber w/ big load & decent 'resume' how about FW-200. could carry > 5000 kg, had a good supply of defensive armament, partook in Bo'B. sure it came apart easy, but no bomber A/C is going to stand up to interceptor attack w/out escort
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Problem with Fw 200 was that it was very fragile, it set up many record flights before the war, it had extreemly good range. But broke up easily.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Which is still an uber vs. historical and theater flexibility argument. The He-111 just plain has more on it's resume'. :D
No its not its a matter of useful german bomber for mid late war period wich the Ju88 and He111 are not. Is that so hard to understand?
No one here said they didnt want the He111 what we are saying is that germany needs a mid war bomber much more then it needs a poor performing, poorly defended early war buff (He111).
He177 Do217 and Ju188 would be much more surviveable and they would fill the mid war bomber spot for germany.
Is that clear enough for you. :D
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Ju88 S Ju88 S! It's got the SPEEEEEEED YEAH MAN!
WRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOM!
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poorly defended early war buff (He111).
ju188 is really poorly defended,cool plane its fast,but it has 3mg's and no cannons,,,compared to the he111's 5 mg's and one 20mm,now for alt and speed he111 stinks,,,,he177 is a good plane but killed more of its own crews by burning up,,they didnt call it the lighter for nothing:) both ju188 and he177 came out about 1942 but didnt get full attetion till 1944,,,fills the late end of the war really well,but i would say the do217 would be more of a mid war bomber than he177 and ju188,,made in 1939 conversions in 1941,,do217 had good armament and tuff plane,,i beleve all these bombers{if you like it or not}will have to be added somtime or you will have gap's in your historical scenario's,,how can you have battle of Britain with out he111? and yes gremans do need a late war bomber
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Hyena426, the Mg's in the He111 are Mg 15's, they are 7.9 mm, meaning they suck bad. The 20mm was stationed in the front, much like the one in the Ju88A4 (we don't have the 20mm in the Ju88). It was an Mg FF, low speed slow firing 20mm (the same as in the 109 E4).
Also, you're wrong on the Ju 188.
The dorsal position in the Ju188 is the same as in the Ju88, an Mg81 Z (twin fast firing Mg81's, 7.9mm). The nose gun was a 20mm Mg151 in the A version and a 13mm in teh E version. A was the bomber E was more path finder. Both the E and A also had a turret on the top, mounted with a Mg 151 20mm aswell as one more gun positon statione little lower with a Mg 131. All in all the Ju 188 had 2 Mg151's, 1 Mg 131 (13mm) and a fast firing (3000 rounds per minute) Mg 81.
WAY better armament then a He111, attacking a Ju188 from anywhere then from underneth would be very very dangerous.
It also carried 3000 kg (6600 lbs) of bombs in a speed of over 500 km/h.
It was equiped with dive brakes. Later versions became even faster and it saw plenty of service.
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Originally posted by Imp
No its not its a matter of useful german bomber for mid late war period wich the Ju88 and He111 are not. Is that so hard to understand?
Is that clear enough for you. :D
"Mid to late war" leaves out alot of history. AH scenario design doesn't allow for aircraft substitution. Is this getting through? Can you hear me? Am I sounding equally condenscending yet? Hello? Are you there? Earth to Imp! :rolleyes: :D
Seriously, though. I think you musta missed my desire to see a Spanish Civil War planeset in development here a year or so ago.
Of course there'll never be one but I like to throw in my two cents outa habit from time to time.
You just don't get it, Scott. ;)
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im sure later had much better guns,,its a good plane,,,and how can you have a spanish war with out he111? Data of the: Ju 188 A-2
Length: 14,95 m
Width: 22,02 m
Height: 4,45 m
Crew: 4
Motor: Jumo 213 A
Power: 2 x 1775 PS
Vmax: 520 km/h
Range: 2400 km
Ceiling: 9500 m
Armament: 1 x MG151/20
1 x MG151
1 x MG121
up to 3.000 kg bombload
only 3 guns,,,its a good plane,,anything wrong with a he111? nope good plane,,just slow,, it is a italian bomber too,need a bomber for there plane set,,it served for a long time there too
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Hyena, I'm nor sure you're following me.
The Ju188 we're discussing was equiped with 1x13mm (50 caliber size, same as 190 A8, F8 and D9 carries in the cowling) 1xMg 151 20mm (this is a cannon) in the noce, 1xMg 151 20mm cannon in a rotating turret on the top and one Mg 81 Z for bottom rear defence.
The rotating turret 20mm more then makes up for ALL the 7.9mm light machine guns on the He111.
The He111 have a speed of about 430 km/h. The He111 is not needed, I don't think the Spanish civil war has really been in the minds of HTC as what they are doing is a WW2 game. I want the He111 but it is not needed, not as much as a mid/late war buff.
All Ju188's had about this armament and it packs a punch.
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Of course they didn't have it in mind or we'd be flying it. It would be something new and different.
You just don't get it, Scott. :D
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lol,well italians didnt have much for good bombers,,besides the he111,,which the spanish loved that plane and used the he111 more than any othere bomber they had,,,its a good plane to add,,because they been wanting to add a italian and german bomber,,it kills 2 birds with 1 stone,,,i beleve they need a late one too,,but 2 very importaint planes are missing,,he111,and the stuka,not having the stuka in a ww2 sim is kinda like not having butter on your toast!! that plane should of been here a long time ago
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As for the Ju 87 I agree :)
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The early one.
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Early, mid and G.
D2 with 20mm in wings instead of normal 7.9mm and the G with 37mm.
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Yeah, the Fw-200 Kondor was a passenger plane converted into a bomber so it was fragile. A Me-163 would be a great plane in AH. And, yes, the Stuka too.
What about some Polish planes? Polish planes are excellent and are very underated and unappriciated but in reality they were very good at fighting Germans. Did you know that a unarmed Polish biplane destroyed a Me-109???
Pilikarpov I-16 would be also a great plane to fly in AH. Fast, manuverable, armed with heavy cannons, shredding enemy fighters. :D
And Il-4 is also a great bomber, it has that classical WWII bomber look with all that glass at the front. It's also fun shooting at the glass.
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Me163 will most likely be in next version.
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Anybody with half a brain knows that the HE111 existed only as inflatable mockups . So, do you want inflatable mockups modeled in AH ? DO YOU ? HUH ?
didn't think so .
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What about PZL-11 and Pilikarpov I-16? Are those inflatable mockups?
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Anybody with half a brain knows that the HE111 existed only as inflatable mockups . So, do you want inflatable mockups modeled in AH ? DO YOU ? HUH ?
what kinda remark is that? he111 wasnt a joke,it wasnt a inflatable mockup,,lol and i think so!! i would fly it,sure many otheres would too,,you dont have to mock a plane that out lasted every german bomber made, was still in service in 1965,,from 1937 to 1965,,,cant beat that service record ,,it outlasted its hitlers 1,000year rule!! but the stuka should be in here soon i hope:( me163 will be kinda diffrent:)
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Brother if you think the He111 existed as a real bomber then I'm sorry to say you're just a tool of the scale model industry . You've been played .
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Brother if you think the He111 existed as a real bomber then I'm sorry to say you're just a tool of the scale model industry . You've been played
think you been played,i walked in one and seen it fly and took picks of it,,seen it,felt it and smelled it,,,it was real:) and a pretty bomber too,,and if it was a balloon {which it wasnt}the confederate airforce sure fly it good!!