Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fancy on September 29, 2002, 07:26:35 PM
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I know it's morbid, but shouldn' t there be an option to loadout your Zero with high exlposives? It's historically correct, but you probably know that.
I imagine the biggest issue is that it would become the dweeb plane du jour against TGs, but maybe that could be offset by stripping guns when explosives were loaded (wasn't that the way it went in WWII) which would make it much more difficult to even reach the CV. Or perhaps charging a few perkies to load it on....Just a thought.
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lol i like that (heres me thinkin about it with that option).......... um.......... eh i feel like a kamakize tonight
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er uh,
Kamikazi attacks are the most effective way to kill CV's already.
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There are some aspects of war I'd rather NOT relive in a lighthearted computer game.
Dedicated Kamikazes, incendiary firebombing, civilian strafing, concentration camps, human suffering in general......all of this stuff can just stay in the history books as far as I'm concerned.
J_A_B
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yah but thats just the thing jab ............ do u think that pilots shot down riding there parachutes down to the ground though "awwwwwwwwww........ man this guy is a real dweeb he's goin to shoot me in my chute" no they were screaming bloody murder as they saw there life flash before there eye's...........
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Originally posted by NOD2000
yah but thats just the thing jab ............ do u think that pilots shot down riding there parachutes down to the ground though "awwwwwwwwww........ man this guy is a real dweeb he's goin to shoot me in my chute" no they were screaming bloody murder as they saw there life flash before there eye's...........
What's your point? I agree with J_A_B.
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.......... my point is the eliment of death is in the game already............. so whats ur problem with taking it to the nest level.............
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.......... my point is the eliment of death is in the game already............. so whats ur problem with taking it to the next level.............
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Dying isn't the point. The point is some aspects of a war don't really belong in a computer GAME, realistic or not.
DEATH is not the issue. What you're REPRESENTINGe. If AH pilots of 109's and 190's had to click a checkbox that said "I swear allegiance to Adolf Hitler" before taking off, wouldn't that change the character of the game (for the worse)??
In AH you shoot parachutes because it deprives the other guy of some points (or if you're like me you DON'T shoot them). The chute-shooting in AH is generally caused by the AH scoring system and isn't really related to the occurances of chute-shooting in reality.
But add a Kamikaze Zeke you'd be doing that specifically for the purpose of re-living one of the saddest chapters of Japanese history, seeing as for gameplay purposes suicide attacks work perfectly fine already.
Some things are just....distasteful.....reali stic or not. No healthy person would want to see a realistic "Gas the Jew" game. Some things are just better left OUT of a game.
Using a suicide Tiffie or N1K or whatever to sink a CV in AH is one thing.....actually pretending to BE a Kamikaze pilot, and having such as a built-in feature of the game, is entirely different, and is IMO crossing the line of decency. YMMV (but hopefully not much).
J_A_B
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Originally posted by NOD2000
.......... my point is the eliment of death is in the game already............. so whats ur problem with taking it to the next level.............
You really should lay off of the periods.
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What J_A_B said.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
In AH you shoot parachutes because it deprives the other guy of some points (or if you're like me you DON'T shoot them). The chute-shooting in AH is generally caused by the AH scoring system
J_A_B
Not that I yearn for the Divine Wind, but if you think chuteing is related to the scoring system, your severely self deluded.
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system: you have been captured. pyro will now come to your house and make sure you eat nothing but one potato & one piece of black bread per day for the next 3 years
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DEATH is not the issue. What you're REPRESENTINGe. If AH pilots of 109's and 190's had to click a checkbox that said "I swear allegiance to Adolf Hitler" before taking off, wouldn't that change the character of the game (for the worse)??
Not onlt would it make a turn for the worse but there wouldn't be any 190's or 109's flying anymore. I sure as hell wouldn't fly them.
As for Kamikazes, you can do that already, just dive in with a tiffie (just something with alot of bombs) and drop the eggs right before you crash.
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Perversion does not necessarily require physical reality.
If some Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht fans would want Auschwitz portrayed in AH, and would want to gas "virtual Jews" to death, would you approve?
Just because "they are not real", "we aren't really physically harming anyone" does it mean it is irrelevant from mental, humanistic, and political issues?
I know the original post doesn't intend this sort of thing. I am responding to the justification of problematic depiction on the basis that it is "virtual" and not "real".
The "next level" is somewhere we should never, ever try to go. This sort of "advance" and "progress" we can live without.
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look ok let me put it this way......... u ppl are looking at it from a american point of veiw. look at it from the japanise prospective....this was almost a honor for them (remember there culter is/was to get killed rather than be captured)....... thats just the way it was......... y disaknowladge a point of aviation history......... no i don't what gas chambers but by god teh japanise did this and tons of them were volenters............. y deny this part of history
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Remember that people bail out in AH mainly because they wish to save at least some of their score. There isn't really any desire to live in AH (which is a good thing BTW).
So leads to the difference between a guy bailing out in reality (he wants to live) versus a guy bailing out in AH (he doesn't care if he lives he just wants to save some points). This in turn means that the AH chute-shooters in AH aren't the same as the chute-shooters of history; In AH you're not murdering a helpless foe (nobody really dies in AH since there's no death penalty, which is good), you're depriving a score-weenie of his points :)
J_A_B
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As I see it, we're already bombing and strafing cities, towns, and churches, so adding kamikazes wouldn't seem like a big deal to me. On the other hand, there are much easier ways to kill a CV now anyway.
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There is a fine, fine line of difference between "denying history" and "denying redepiction of history".
We recognize the historicity of certain events because some parts of history should never be repeated.
The spans of the simulation games genre(planes, tanks, ships, wargames..) is about as far as we can go considering this: due to the fact that the main factors of competition and destruction could be limited to depersonalized mechanical devices, or a vague description of human death, these computer programs we enjoy can be qualified as "games". Otherwise it wouldn't be anything better than a "snuff film" or a "pornography of death" - gross perversions of history.
That is why the games depict planes being smashed up, but not the people inside bloodily mutilated(depiction of bloody, bullet hole-ridden cockpits is about the absolute limit). Bombs destroying buildings, but not shattering people's bodies, and strafing, or strategy/war games with simplified/quickly disappearing human bodies. FPS games with blood and human bodies, but nothing that goes as far as to depict guts, how the human body is mutilated, torn, drilled and etc..(remember why games like DOOM series was viewed with such concern).
Also, that is precisely the reason why system that intentionally recreates or promotes historically inhuman and genocidal events, should never take place in a game.
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But you guys are okay with cratering small town, including a church? :rolleyes:
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maybe in AH 1.2 HT will have townspeople walking around in the town and running for their lives when they hear the air raid siren. aside from structure destroyed system messages, we will also have townspeople killed system messages. then we have to flatten the town and kill all the people so they won't pitchfork our drunks in the name of the fatherland.
eeww...... talk about collateral damage.....
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Originally posted by Kweassa
FPS games with blood and human bodies, but nothing that goes as far as to depict guts, how the human body is mutilated, torn, drilled and etc..(remember why games like DOOM series was viewed with such concern).
Points him to SoF.
As for kamikazi's,
NO, no way, not only does it disrepect Japanese, but also in real life, when you died you died, thats it, your gone!
where as in AH, you can just reup when you die
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It's a non-issue.
HTC will probably add Kamikazes about the same time they put swastikas on the tail of German planes... when hell freezes over.
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Originally posted by milnko
It's a non-issue.
HTC will probably add Kamikazes about the same time they put swastikas on the tail of German planes... when hell freezes over.
There's a big difference between painting a swastika on an aircraft than depicting wanton and gratuitous violence.
How about this? Any gamer that ups in a kamikaze-modeled (and perked for sure) aircraft, is also removed from the game for two hours upon dying.
That would prevent people from abusing the system, and also remind us that lives arent renewable at one's behest.
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hey milnko and red tail 444 check out the 109 g-2 it has swasticas on it
and yah i have to agree that would be a good idea red tail but i would think that the planes that are able to do that are dissabled after u do that and they reset ever hour or 2
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Originally posted by NOD2000
hey milnko and red tail 444 check out the 109 g-2 it has swasticas on it
and yah i have to agree that would be a good idea red tail but i would think that the planes that are able to do that are dissabled after u do that and they reset ever hour or 2
those aren't the nazi ones though
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:rolleyes: a swastica is a swastica :rolleyes:
oh no thats not a true one jim bob painted it..........
ok now that has to be a real one hitler himself made it...
yah but he wasn't really trying so it can't be a REAL one.....
give me a break ben
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I noticed the swastica, I was making a reference...
Bah, the only time I get near a LW ride is when I'm dumping .50's and 20's into his cockpit...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by NOD2000
:rolleyes: a swastica is a swastica :rolleyes:
Ummm, the SWASTIKA is a symbol of the Nazi Party, the "bent cross" thingie on the 109g2 is Finnish markings, I dunno the exact name of it, but they are very different and represent two entirely different ideals.
In light of the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center, I should think it would be obvious to most of us as to why it's not the best of ideas to add Kamikazes to the game.
Many would find them as offensive as the Swastika.
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NOD2000, you appear to have no clue whatsoever of what you're talking about. The markings on the 109G-2 are in no way related to Nazi Germany. Those markings are from FINLAND, and were in fact in use some 20 years before WW2 (in other words those markings were in use before Nazis even existed).
J_A_B
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Originally posted by NOD2000
the planes that are able to do that are dissabled after u do that and they reset ever hour or 2
Nope, disable the people. Everyone wants to talk about "The reality," that is apparently so lacking in here.
I suggest this: If people really want to martyr themselves, let them get a real feeling for being dead. In fact, let them be locked out for a day, or a week, or however long it takes for them to capture the pure senselessnessand waste of life of such an endeavor.
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Originally posted by milnko
Many would find them as offensive as the Swastika.
bah. I fing the confederate flag extremely offensive...doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in our history (and I hate to admit that it does).
Let's all have barney the dinosaur as our squad logos...now THAT'S offensive!
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Let's all have barney the dinosaur as our squad logos...now THAT'S offensive!
I find him offensive
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sorry it looked like it to me........... but then again i almost never fly the g-2 and the only plane i have time to admire the art of is the P-40b "flying tigers" plus the only time i look at it is when i glance out the side and it looks like a swastika to me at first glance............... soooooooooooorrrrrrrrrry:rolleyes:
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First of all the japanese were AFRADE of dieing. You would be to, being told to fly into a large metel boat floating on the water. NOD you should read up on what it was like. I've read some books that are compiled of leter's back to the familys of kamikazi pilots. The were scared S* less. they didnt want to die. Nor would you put into the situation.
I find the idea of a dedicated kamikazi aircraft offensive to the japanese people. It made them look like savages. I dont think what they are trying to portray here.
NOD you should do some research on things you think and things that are fact! Don't go off and and say things like htis. GET THE FACTS! Ask an old Japanese Vet what he thought. He'll tell you diffrent!
look ok let me put it this way......... u ppl are looking at it from a american point of veiw. look at it from the japanise prospective....this was almost a honor for them (remember there culter is/was to get killed rather than be captured)....... thats just the way it was......... y disaknowladge a point of aviation history......... no i don't what gas chambers but by god teh japanise did this and tons of them were volenters............. y deny this part of historylook
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HEY COACH y don't u read up on japanise culture..........
u know what a bonzi attack was...........
coach use ur head .........think the one's that survived and wrote those letters books and are vets now are there cuz they didn't do it cuz they were scared......... the ones the died wern't scared to do it duh!!!!!:rolleyes: or else they would have survived like the vets u get ur info from............
ok think of it this way yes if they did try to return to base then they would be shot i know this fact but u ever hear of them ditchin in the ocean near fleets just so tehy could live and be captured nooooooooo
remeber i write to B-17 pilots prepeatedly they flew in the pacific they knew they were trien to kamakazi formations on purpose those ppl in the forts and libs saw the faces of ppl that were trieng to kamakazi them they saw anger not fear just utter anger and hatred
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A "symbol" gains its importance on what sort of feelings and emotions the people get from a visual image. The "swastika" is a form derived from many ancient cultures as a symbol of the moon and the sun. It is also a Chinese character pronounced as 'wan' meaning "full".
When we go to India and look at all the wondeful temples with the swastika symbols here and there, do we think to our selves "oh crap! Indians must love the Nazis, too!" ??
Of course not. Only an idiot would insist it is in anyway affiliated with Nazism. People recognize a symbol from the overall context, not from the "shape" alone.
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...and the exact same kind of idiocy, I am sensing from some of these posts.
As milenko said, implementing an "official" Kamikaze system is a non-issue. Military simulation games are controversial as it is, we don't want to go any further than as it is.
Implementing a kamikaze attack system would mean:
1) justifying extreme suicidal attempts as a regular military tactic
2) encouraging "suicide" as a way of militaristic resistance
3) encouraging underskilled pilots to go kill themselves to earn score and recognition
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Guess what, all three things are exactly what happened in Kamikazes of real-life. So tell me again how this is "different".
Encouraging people to "act" in a way with a certain purpose, with a certain meaning that almost exactly matches a historically tragic event ... and because the difference is "it is not real", that makes it OK?
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Originally posted by NOD2000
remeber i write to B-17 pilots prepeatedly they flew in the pacific they knew they were trien to kamakazi formations on purpose those ppl in the forts and libs saw the faces of ppl that were trieng to kamakazi them they saw anger not fear just utter anger and hatred
1. He's not coach
2. In the less than half a second, through all the smoke, etc. and through the prop of the kamikazi plane, do you REALLY belive that you could see the face of the pilot?
3. That kind of kamikazi attack is already in AH
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1. yah he is coach
2. yah ben they could.........on both sides of the wars luft pilots described scared gunners on forts as they came in japaise did the same and the gunners have many reports of being able to see part of the face shot away and blood splatered in the back of the cockpit u got to remember ben the the luft wached certin forts and when the fire stoped from the tail and belly pos then they would sit there about 100-200yrd off and just chop away at the fort........
3. yah we have that for forts and other bombers but not for attacking convoys and bases
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I have no problem with enabling kamikazes in Aces High, in Japanese planes only.
eskimo
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wow we need some new planes to talk about. this crap is REALLy scraping the barrel.
just kamakazi and drop bombs at the last minute if you want it so bad!
HOWEVER, personally id like it if ALL damaged aircraft (whether flown or bailed from and crashing)caused a certain amount of damage.I dont want to purposefully crash into buildings but when i bail out id like to watch my stricken aircraft spin into the ground and explode :)
with luck it will hit the ostwind that has just taken my wing off and kill him :)
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Originally posted by hazed-
with luck it will hit the ostwind that has just taken my wing off and kill him :)
LOL hehe...me likes!
Imagine that poor bastage that bailed out of an SBD with 15 kills, walking back to base, and the charred wreckage of three lancs fall on him!
Yeah, I really like this idea :)
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About the Kamikaze pilots...
Saw a documentary featuring two ex-Kamikaze pilots (they didn't go through it all the way obviously), and they were volunteers...
as in their squadron commander telling them they had the honor to do this.
These guys were forced to volunteer, by peer pressure (think rigid guidelines for personal behaviour in Japan) and by pressure from above. The pilots, and their families lively recalled the horrible situation - the pilots would've gone to military prison, and their families would've been outcasts of society hadn't they accepted to "volunteer"
I'd find it repulsive to model Kamikaze flights in AH.
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Originally posted by devious
These guys were forced to volunteer...and by pressure from above. The pilots, and their families lively recalled the horrible situation - the pilots would've gone to military prison, and their families would've been outcasts of society hadn't they accepted to "volunteer"...
Hmm....like, "draft dodging?":rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Hmm....like, "draft dodging?":rolleyes:
Thats different, if you get drafted its not your mission to dive your plane into the enemy
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Originally posted by BenDover
Thats different, if you get drafted its not your mission to dive your plane into the enemy
Being forced to serve against your will isin't though.
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Alrighty then. I started this thread so I'd better report in and maybe explain myself a bit more. First, as a student of history AND as a student of literature (and even philosophy), I am of the personal belief that history can most of the time tell a better story than any writer can. I believe that the story of Japanese kamikaze pilots is one of the most tragic and epic turns in the Pacific Theatre for both sides. One of the most indelible images burned into my memory (and I'm sure the memories of many others) is the image of the kamikaze pilot wobbling through a storm of tracers only to fall a few hundred feet short of the carrier. I know that many kamikaze pilots were just kids and in no way really wanted to do it. But that adds to the weight of the story. Sheepishly turning your head away from a tragic point in the past can only cripple you.
Second, it is historically correct to portray kamikazes AS A WEAPON. Their effect was both tangible and psychological. (Have you ever watched an interview with those Americans that were exposed to kamikaze pilots? The dread and sadness is echoed in each of their voices.) Their impact helped shaped the later days of the war and their absence is noticable. Like most have already stated--people commonly kamikaze anyway.
Third, sure this is a game. But it is one that I think attempts to immerse us in that world of WWII aviation combat. Yes, this immersion is a not in any way real, but it is immersion nonetheless and for me realistic qualities enhance immersion. I can draw the line easily, and I can't really understand why it's that hard for others to do.
Finally, on the point of Luftwaffe pilots: duh. This is a silly tack if I ever heard one. The number of Germans that knew exactly what was happening to the Jews under the Nazi regime was in the minority. This is especially true in the first half of the war when the Nazis did to most of the Jews what they claimed they were doing: exiling them. This is also very true within the Nazi bureacracy as well. Hannah Arendt insists, in her Eichmann in Jerusalem that one of the biggest tools of Nazi administrative obfuscation was a twisted web of bureacracy. This effectively removed both the awareness and the culpability from many Nazi bureacrats even those working closely with "Jewish matters." To me, the swastika has little power as a symbol and I think the modern day vilification of this symbol is myopic to say the least. The acts define the evil, not the coat it wears. There is NO SINGLE CASE in which a Luftwaffe pilot was forced to express wishes of genocide on any other group of people before he flew. Period. The implications towards this are absurd.
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Originally posted by Fancy
Second, it is historically correct to portray kamikazes AS A WEAPON. Their effect was both tangible and psychological. (Have you ever watched an interview with those Americans that were exposed to kamikaze pilots? The dread and sadness is echoed in each of their voices.) Their impact helped shaped the later days of the war and their absence is noticable. Like most have already stated--people commonly kamikaze anyway.
It may be historcally correct, but when in Aces High are you going to have someone who's physically shaking and emotionally traumatized from seeing a faceless online player hurl himself into the onslaught of CV ack fire. We already have several kamakazi airplanes in this game which are already available and do more damage to their targets than a zeke strapped with a 500kg bomb.
I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that it shaped the war because at the time they were employed it was already a last ditch effort to try and stop the U.S.
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Originally posted by XNachoX
It may be historcally correct, but when in Aces High are you going to have someone who's physically shaking and emotionally traumatized from seeing a faceless online player hurl himself into the onslaught of CV ack fire. We already have several kamakazi airplanes in this game which are already available and do more damage to their targets than a zeke strapped with a 500kg bomb.
I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that it shaped the war because at the time they were employed it was already a last ditch effort to try and stop the U.S.
Nacho, I'd like to return your respect. I'll just say that I find it refreshing for someone on an internet BB to show such civility and the ability to discern between an argument in the classical sense and a poo flinging contest. Now on to the meat.
I guess "shape" is a relative term. I know it was a last-ditch effort but it had a great impact. Maybe not drastically on the momentum of the war, but on the everyday lives and actions of the men serving both sides. And kamikaze's did manage to cripple and sink a scant few US ships. I have found, in my unfruitful research as to how much explosives kamikaze's carried, that a 40mm deck gun was introduced solely for the purpose of tearing apart kamikazes before they could reach a ship.
And as for the fact that we have several kamikaze "stand ins", why not just have the real thing by your own logic. Regardless of whether or not it would instill fear in AH players, the A6 tag would get the attention of ship gunners first, I'm sure. I'll keep researching though to try and find out what sort of load they carried. I read one source that claimed it was, as you've posted, 500kgs, but that same sources insisted it was 100% explosive weight giving it a much bigger explosive capability. But that source seemed spurious.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
FPS games with blood and human bodies, but nothing that goes as far as to depict guts, how the human body is mutilated, torn, drilled and etc..(remember why games like DOOM series was viewed with such concern).
You haven't played Day of Defeat or any of the Soldier of Fortune games. Just last night as I was playing DoD, I was amazed by the detail of the flying body parts after I tossed a grenade at a German machine gun position. It rained body parts for a few seconds, with the walls behind the machine gun covered in blood. Very good gore detail indeed.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by akak
It rained body parts for a few seconds, with the walls behind the machine gun covered in blood. Very good gore detail indeed.
Ack-Ack
Great, and just in time for X-mas....
Peace on Earth, y'all
:(