Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: john9001 on September 30, 2002, 06:33:15 PM
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just saw some thing on TV about "learning disabled"students getting 50% more time to do a SAT test.
what is "learning disabled", is that what we used to call "dumb"?
it seems students who are not "learning disabled" are claiming it to get extra time to take the test
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Just because someone is not smart and/or is un-educated does mean that we should deprive him of a good grade.
He'll feel inferior if we do, and we can't have that, can we? It would discourage him from applying and being accepted at Stanford.
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Dyslexic(spelling) Attention Deficit Disorder, Hyper Activity Attention Deficit Disorder. I use to tutor them in Algebra, Geometry . It is sad to see kids trying hard and the brain just take em away. Depending on the disablity, I see no real problem.
hardcase
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Originally posted by john9001
what is "learning disabled", is that what we used to call "dumb"?
According to a study done by the LA Times, it often means that the parents are rich enough to hire a psychologist to give out piece of paper allowing extra time on the test.
The College Board used to 'flag' scores from disabled folks that got extra time, but they had to stop doing that after being sued by a student who has no hands.
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I was learning disabled! They didn't call it that in the late 60's. ;)
My main problem is dealing with dyslexia. Heck, I can’t write or spell worth a darn. What takes most people an hour to comprehend and learn, it takes me about two hours. I spend that extra time rearranging the numbers and letters in my mind until it’s sorted out correctly. However, once I understand the concept, I’m blessed with excellent recall. Now that I'm older and know how to learn and deal with it, It's not a major problem.
Now you’re asking yourself… WTF is this hillbilly talking about.
From that ordeal, I developed a skill that 99% of the people will never develop… public speaking! I’m talking about people paying me real money to talk about a subject I love to talk about. I’m talking about lecturing on the University level for the past 16 years. Guess what? It’s just a part-time job. My full time job is still police/fire rescue at the local airport. Got my 20 years in and eligible to retire at the age of 43. However, I'm having too much fun at the airport to retire now.
Most folks that are learning disabled are not dumb. Once they learn the concept and understand, most have better recall than the "normal" students. (they had to work at it)
Just a POV from the other side of the fence.;)
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Learning disabled does not mean low I.Q. or low ability. Learning disabilities come in a variety of forms. So you give the kid who is dyslexic more time on a test? What's the big deal?
Look at it this way- if a kid is trying to do his best, has some intelligence, but needs a few more minutes to sort out answers, are you really ready to write him/her off? Are you really ready to support this person (via public assistance) for the rest of his/her life because you think it is unfair to get a few more minutes on a test?
Quite honestly, standardized tests are a bit of a joke anyway. Of eight known intelligences, these tests cover two. Colleges place a lot of pressure on students to score high on these tests, and students place a lot of credence on the tests as a measure of self worth. This is dangerous, and it's wrong. Of course I don't have a better alternative, but you should recognize the tests for what they really are- tests of math and language skills.
There are a lot of people walking around feeling stupid that aren't- of course, the opposite is true, too. ;)
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Let me give you a perfect example of what I mean... HT probably can't spell his own name, yet he is a coding maniac. Is he stupid? No, he has shown pretty good business acumen so far.
Language and math isn't all there is to life, folks.
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Kieran,
you must not be flying at this time.
Originally posted by Kieran
Let me give you a perfect example of what I mean... HT ...
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Isn't problems with spelling dysgraphia?
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If you are referring to the example of HT that Kieren is using, I don't think his spelling errors are caused by disease or dysfunction.
btw I didn't know they had a seperate word for writing dysfunction, I thot it was all covered under dyslexia.
Originally posted by Thrawn
Isn't problems with spelling dysgraphia?
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Well... let me try again.
If your car breaks down, who do you want to show up- Elfenwulf, who could write a treatise on your situation that will have you clutching your ribs in laughter, or Lazs, who could fix the dang thing and add about 50 horsepower in the process?
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what Montezuma said
just another well meaning warm and fuzzy equalizer which is being exploited & abused more than it is helping
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Eagler-
You don't know what you're talking about, sorry.
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how is having more time gonna give you the answer? why not just let everyone have as much time as they can stand?
if you want to test (seperately) how fast someone comes up with an answer on a test then perhaps those who work things out slowly won't even bother to take such a test. Everyone is good at something. I think those who arrive at answers rapidly should be recognized too. their skill can be weighed by those who may have a use for it and ignored by those who don't.
lazs
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Originally posted by Kieran
Eagler-
You don't know what you're talking about, sorry.
You do not think this has/is being abused?
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When I was in middle school/high school, I couldn't pay attention worth a damn in class.
Either I had ADD, or the teachers and subjects just bored the hell outta me. Unless it was interesting, which it rarely was, I didn't pay attention.
Never got any special magical drugs to make me pay attention, I just dealt with it. Never got any extra time on a test either.
I knew a couple of kids who got extra time on their tests because they were "learning disabled".... and that was on every test or quiz in school not just those SATs (which have already been admitted to being useless)
It was abused as hell at the 2 schools I went to, I highly doubt it's any different anywhere else.
-SW
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I taught special ed for 5 years. I gotta say though that Laz has a point. Time should not be a factor in these tests unless we are testing mental agility. The time constraint is probably due more to the logistics of completing a long test in a single afternoon, than to assisting in the measurement of the capabilities of the individual.
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Bingo, MT.
Do I think people abuse the rule? Of course, people abuse every rule you make. You do however need to look at the bigger picture here- if you are going to effectively rule college out for people that legitimately need more time on the test, then you run a higher probability of having these same people supported by public funds- your tax dollars. Tell me again how this makes good sense?
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Get rid of SATs???
A few colleges have already stopped accepting them...
-SW
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Obviously there are black and white sides to this issue. Some abuses occur, and some deserving students gain access to an education that might not have otherwise. Its kinda tough to decide where that line should be drawn, so I guess I would rather err on the inclusive side.
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There's more to the story than this, though. What is a standardized test after all? It is merely a set number of questions that are given to students all around the country in a format agreed upon by all. There are time restraints, but they are arbitrarily set, and as you guess these restraints have more to do with logistics than anything else. You could argue that decision-making ability is measured as a byproduct of the timing, but if it is I doubt it is used by any university.
For those that tested using SAT or ACT...
1. Did it test your musical intelligence?
2. Did it test your spatial intelligence?
3. Did it test your ability to problem solve?
4. Did it test your ability to socialize and work in groups?
5. Did it test your communication, both aural and written?
6. Did it test your artistic intelligence?
7. Did it test your mechanical ability- that ability to look at any machine and understand how it works and how to fix it when it is broken?
What it did test:
1. Written communication
2. Math computation
My problem with these tests is that schools use them for an entry ticket even if the tests don't test the skills the schools need. More than that, what of the issue of racial and socioeconomic bias?
Believe me, time is the least of my concerns with these tests.
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what is "learning disabled", is that what we used to call "dumb"?
No, but posting such a thing is what alot of us would call ignorant.
This is an interesting thead, more than most in that you can tell who is a not very well informed on a subject (and probably not too bright), and who has the knowledge to understand the issue.
Many very intelligent people suffer from some form of learning disability.
Is the term "learning disabled" misused? Possibly on isolated cases, but I would find it hard to believe its really widespread. For one, why would somebody want to carry that label if it isnt true? For another, someone you might think is just scamming might very well have problems you are completly unaware of. Its not like they will advertise it on a day to day basis, and might work very hard to compensate.
I suggest before throwing out insults or making uninformed assumptions, people try and get familiar with a subject and in the future speak a little more from a position of knowledge and compassion.
Dago
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Originally posted by Dago
For one, why would somebody want to carry that label if it isnt true? For another, someone you might think is just scamming might very well have problems you are completly unaware of. Its not like they will advertise it on a day to day basis, and might work very hard to compensate.
I dunno... but the people I knew that were "learning disabled" were actually just lazy.
-SW
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Originally posted by Kieran
My problem with these tests is that schools use them for an entry ticket even if the tests don't test the skills the schools need. More than that, what of the issue of racial and socioeconomic bias?
What about the issue of gender bias? More girls take SATs and the same number passes above average as boys, but among students achieving 800 SAT score there is 7.5 boys for every girl.
It is obvious that girls belong to a different race and different socioeconomic class than their boy siblings raised in the same family.
Or you can put the theory of "equal racial abilities" to the same crap heap as the long-discredited theory of "multiple intelligences".
There are many cases where really intelligent people have some mental disorder that affects certain aspects of their learning - may be dozens, even hundreds.
The millions that are shoehorned into that "learning-disabled category" are just plain dumb. You need an IQ of at least 100+ to graduate the high school without tricks - closer to 105. Half of the people (and allegedely 80+% of "diversity") are not that smart.
miko
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Originally posted by Eagler
what Montezuma said
just another well meaning warm and fuzzy equalizer which is being exploited & abused more than it is helping
someone take note of this day, for Eagler and that lazy ACLU panzy agreed on something!
-Sikboy
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I'd just like to know how he knows it is being abused more than it is being helpful.
Dago is correct. Parents resist having their kids labeled for the most part.
AK, people are people. If teachers don't handle the IEPs right, an LD student can learn to be lazy. The trick is setting the appropriate level of challenge, or making the proper adjustments to learning to compensate. Further, it is not possible to see all of what is going on in a student's mind, so assuming laziness is not a safe bet.
Put another way, you folks wouldn't call a blind or deaf person lazy and stupid, you would recognize their disability. Some disabilites are simply more difficult to detect, but are just as real as blindness and deafness.
And Eagler, think a moment... why not allow someone who is making an effort to do his/her best more time on a test? Isn't this someone that is doing everything in his/her power to improve him/herself? Isn't this far preferable to someone standing on the corner with his/her hand out?
Never, ever kick the legs out from under anyone trying to lift themselves up.
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I'm not assuming... I knew these people.
If anything, it was an acquired disablility -> Laziness.
As for LD students getting more time on SATs... that just goes further to prove my point of how useless a test they are.
-SW
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Originally posted by Sikboy
someone take note of this day, for Eagler and that lazy ACLU panzy agreed on something!
-Sikboy
LOL
must be my "learning disorder" kicking in :)
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And Eagler, think a moment... why not allow someone who is making an effort to do his/her best more time on a test? Isn't this someone that is doing everything in his/her power to improve him/herself? Isn't this far preferable to someone standing on the corner with his/her hand out?
I agree but you can't grade them on the same scale as someone not given a boost.
Think of it as it applies to hiring someone
You pre test before employment
One guy takes an hour longer for whatever reason than the other one but both score about the same
who are you going to hire - considering you are paying them to accomplish a given task in a given time period??
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If the criteria includes time, then you are correct Eagler. What we are talking about here however, is access to education. Once a thing is learned, it doesn't really matter how long it took to learn it. A learning disabled student might take 6 years to complete a course in engineering, yet still be a very good engineer.
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If completing the test in a certain time frame is part of the test then I'd say nope. Everyone gets to be equal period, no one gets more or less than anyone else. That's competition. If the person is slow they shouldn't be competing in a time based trial. They need to find something that actually does fit them realistically and excel at it.
When they get out into the job market, people are not going to buy from them because they are trying hard. They are going to be buying from them because the product meets their needs.
*Giving* the learning disabled anything, imo is wrong, let them earn their way like anyone else. They are capable people and there is a wide variety of jobs open to people of all types of skills and speeds.
If completing the test has no time limit then we have no argument.
Originally posted by Kieran
And Eagler, think a moment... why not allow someone who is making an effort to do his/her best more time on a test? Isn't this someone that is doing everything in his/her power to improve him/herself? Isn't this far preferable to someone standing on the corner with his/her hand out?
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Originally posted by Kanth
If completing the test in a certain time frame is part of the test then I'd say nope. Everyone gets to be equal period, no one gets more or less than anyone else. That's competition.
I thought the purpose of school was to learn, not compete.
PS: My brother-in-law has dysgraphia and is spelling is almost exactly like HT.
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Some of you are making the mistaken assumption SATs and ACTs perfectly predict ability and job performance. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Taking SATs and ACTs test how well you take tests based on math and written language, that's it.
If two people do the same job at the same qualitative level, but one person takes longer, who do I hire? If time is an issue, the faster one. What does that have to do with SATs? Not a darn thing.
How many of you out there seriously have careers where the chief components of your daily routine revolve around written communication and math? How many don't? Do you see what I mean yet?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I thought the purpose of school was to learn, not compete.
You have to compete all your life, so you better learn it in school.
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As a software engineer, how much time are you spending in written communication? Now you might be able to argue logic in mathematical terms for the programming part (assuming you do program or look at others' programs), but how much do you rely on written communication?
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You are thinking of the after they get in.
We're talking about altering the basis on which it's decided that they do get in or not.
People aren't denied application out of principal. Colleges do not have unlimited resources and people usually aren't going there to learn just to cause they want to. They will eventually apply their knowledge to their careers.
Getting in to a good college is very competative.
learning once you are in, isn't.
Originally posted by Thrawn
I thought the purpose of school was to learn, not compete.
PS: My brother-in-law has dysgraphia and is spelling is almost exactly like HT.
Maybe HT does have dysgraphia, I'd not know. Maybe HT is your brother, I'd not know that either :p
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Kieran, software engineering requires a great deal of written communication. Programming doesn't involve written communication, however, programming isn't all a software engineer does. There are numerous documents to write. I've got a due date on phase one coming up for a project at work. What's due? The Program Management Plan, the Software Requirements Specification and the Software Development plan. All three are written documents, and none are terribly technically involved. Especially the SRS. It has to be written so the customer can understand what exactly the software is to do. I won't actually start coding any of the software until after the design docs and testing plans are completed (more technically oriented, but still written communication.)
So, I'd say about 40-60% of my time is spent on written communication for a software project if I'm involved in the entire life cycle of the project. If I'm coding only, then of course there is very little written communication. However, as a software engineer, I'm usually responsible for more than just being a code monkey. ;)
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Honestly, I don't know what a software engineer does, nor would I presume to say, hence my question. The point really is, how many careers out there depend on both written communication and math vs. how many that don't. If the SAT and ACT are the end-all and be-all for college entry, this should be reflected in our daily work life- clearly this is not the case.
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I agree with you, believe me. I just didn't want you using an incorrect case to make your point.
Also, just to give you a bit more fuel on your fire, here in Florida the schools are graded based on students' performance on the FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Achievement Test). Guess what this examination tests?
Math, Reading, and Writing. That's it. School funding is based significantly on this test. Good scores = more money (edit: more money in the form of bonus money, "A+ funds" is a term I've heard mentioned many times). Before vouchers in the state of Florida were ruled unconstitutional, if a school received an F grade for two years, I think 2 years, then parents could receive vouchers to send their kids elsewhere. (unconstitutional against our state constitution, not against the US Constitution. The Florida one has a provision that public dollars may NOT go to church institutions. A lot of vouchers were used for private Christian/Catholic schools.) So accountability for the schools, administration and teachers is based on 3-10 grade performance in math, reading and writing. The schools do a lot of pretesting with software (the companies that make the software LOVE the FCAT!) and they find out which kids need work in which areas. Very good stuff right? Yes and no. Yes in that it helps little Johnny get better at math, but no in the fact that little Johnny is on the FCAT math prep software during history class. Most teachers tell me they don't get to really "teach" until after the FCAT has concluded in March.
Well, at least the FCAT prepares the students for the SAT!
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Originally posted by Nifty
Well, at least the FCAT prepares the students for the SAT!
which is a hellva lot more than they were getting before
Go JEB!
:)
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But to what degree are the learning disabled. Some are disabled more than others.