Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lasse on October 01, 2002, 06:44:47 AM
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Curently I use a MS FFeedback stick, with rudder in the handle(twist), and after all these years I still like it.
But the Hotas Cougar together with a set of ThrustMaster Elite Pedals is really tempting.
They do have a price (That`s for shure), and before I blow that kind of money I like to be shure if this is worth the cash.
So tell me you Cougar users out there, was the Cougar set worth the investment ?
Anyone knows anything about the TM Elite Pedals ?
Or should I simply keep my old MSFF ?`
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
(http://217.8.137.250/twv.gif)
Lasse
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Ill tell you in 3 days when mine ARRIVES ! WOOHOOOOooo(cough splutter...ooo)
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Its a great stick Lasse, but most likely after all those years of MS sticks (known for their light spring throw) you will find the spring tension way too hard for your liking.
An alternative to the Cougar would be the CH gear, which has the same quality but much more of a "middle of the road" spring setting.
The Cougar is nice, but you better have forearms of steel! ;)
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You have to tell me spook what your first impression is when you get it. :)
Vermillion, thx for the advice, but I dont think the spring tension will be a problem( I am a Nice guy on 140KG, or in pounds about 280 ;-))
I seriously doubt that the spring tension is harder than the clutch on my 1969 Harley, THAT is spring tension ;-)
(http://217.8.137.250/harley1.jpg)
Anyone else that uses the Cougar ?
Lasse :cool:
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I own a MSPP2 but got to try the cougar at the convention in August
although yes, the spring tension was high, the stick itself felt like the real deal. even though i'm not an eagle driver just yet i've had the chance to sit in an f-15a and holding the cougar reminded me of that time. once i pay off those pesky texas cc bills i'm defintely going to get one.
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I've got the cougar and its a good stick I guess, but wasn't blown away.
The way it programs is fantastic, however, the form, fit of the stick was not stellar for a $300 dollar stick. I've already had to take the POTS out and clean them due to extreme spiking. I've had the stick since June.
If I had to do it again, I'd probably go back to the Saitek X45 USB
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Why did they go for pots?
If X-45 is as good as X-36, then it's a decent bit of kit. Had mine for 18 months and have no complaints.
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Circuit City
X45 $69.95
add $10 for replacement plan
you get 2 - X45 for $40 each
you can't beat that price
I suggest you drop another $100 at buy.com and pick up the USB CH Pro Peds
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Oookaayyy, now I am in doubt, A stick to that price should be a lot more than just okay.
Still searching for an answer. ( the truth is out there ;))
Lasse
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Flown on the X36 for about 1.5 years - both hats were worn out after 6 months... it has a mushy feel for me but a good HOTAS for a very good price...
For a couple of months I am a proud Cougar owner! I just love this stick - I love the weight - the feel of it in general. True you have to adjust to the hard springs but after a month or so you don't wanna miss it. IMO it's well worth the money. The programming software needs a bit getting into it but it surpasses Saiteks one in every category, the possibilities are endless!
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I've enjoyed my Cougar but I've found that the "play" in the joystick x axis is increasing, not happy about that. May be looking for a fix soon.
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I really like my Cougar. I am happy with the investment because I feel like I won't be buying another stick for quite some time.
With regards to the spring tension, yeah, it will take some getting used to. Thats for sure. After a little bit, two things will happen. First, you will get used to the tension. Second, the springs do lossen up a bit. As far as the play in the middle goes, mine has some, but I never notice it while using it.
What took me the most time to get used to switching from an MS twisty stick were the pedals. I love them now, but 6 months ago, I absolutely hated them.
Anyways, I am completely happy with my Cougar and don't see myself going back to any hoopty twisty stick anytime soon.
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used the x 36 for two years till view hat contacts went. now have x45 , except fot the software probs with xp. no complaints. Couger just plain felt wrong to me.
People on these boards like to buy very expensive questionably better equipment. ( check any thread about rifles).
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This ought to start a war, but that's not my intention.
I owned an X-45 Stick and Throttle combo for years. It was a cute little toy, and had light springs. The buttons were functional enough to get the job done, but over time, I found myself looking for more.
I found it in the Cougar. Lasse, I have the exact set-up your taling about. The cougar is a monster. It's steel construction can be hard on your hands, especially when your palms start to sweat, so be ready to buy a cheap pair of fingerless gloves.
All these cougar users and testers talking about the springs have got to be out of their minds!
Sure, the springs are tighter than the other little toy joysticks on the market, but the cougar in not bad. And the springs loosen enough after about 20-30 hours iof use.
Now, I'm 5'9", 150 lbs, I don't work out, and I have NO TROUBLE WHATSOEVER banging that stick around.
The programming of the cougar can be daunting. But you have 2 choices. Read the manual, or "Borrow" someone elses template, download it, launch it, and off you go. I got mine from Revvin, and he did a great job. I've yet to program that stick!
Now for the rudders, I have those about a month, and they are already a bit spikey. I'm not happy with them, so you may want to look elsewhere for a better set of rudders.
But as for the money, the cougar was the best $300 I ever spent. Chips and Bits had the best price, and I think they offer free shipping.
Fear not the cougar!
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Go with the cougar, it rocks, I do not regret the money I spent on it. You can program it in many ways and it is DX compliant so you do not have to use the TM programing stuff if you dont want too... just do it in the game!
The springs are stiff, but for me that was the number one reason for buying it, with joysticks with light ones, I can't fly! lol I over controll way to much.
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been using a MS sidewinder 3d pro twisty stick so long i can't remember when i got it, it's got optical sensors so no pots to go bad, never had any problems with it except some play from wear when stick is centered.
44MAG
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Cougar spring tension is easy enough to weaken if you feel the need, I did as the control near centre was not precise enough for my liking.
Pots can and will spike same as any other joystick, take em apart and increase tension on the contacts.
Cougar world has a huge thread on mods for the gimbals etc to reduce slop and another thread has started offering a mod to change from pots to Hall sensors for the X and Y axes.
That i am gonna get asap.
User support for mods to the cougar is very good although you could argue for the money it should have these features anyway :)
Takes a while to set the reponse up to perfection, (for me anyway) and since i last posted on that subject i have changed it all again.
Good stick would not want to change it, but for the first month it was a close call :)
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$300 for a joystick .. not me
at my calculations I can be in X45's for 7.5 years for $300 and that is replacing it every 12 months with a brand new
and as much as you want to imagine otherwise - your $300 jstick is a still just a toy - just an expensive toy :)
going from a ms twisty stick to an X45 is a huge increase in performance & fun - best bang for the buck. Get it and the USB peds for less than the cougar
that is unless you have XP - then all bets are off until Saitek gets a working software package for it :)
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Or should I simply keep my old MSFF
Yes , add a USB CH Pro throttle and a USB CH Pro Pedals and you'll be happy . You'll have your hotas and the stick that you are so used to and still happy with .
I sent my Cougar back , didn't like the way the center works , the way one spring hands off to the other spring etc .
It felt damn nice though .
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Let me get this straight, you have to buy pedals for a $300.00 joystick? Does the stick twist if you don't have pedals? And what are pots?,and where are they located? I have a logitech digital 3D extreme. It has 4 buttons in reach of my thumb and two on the base near the throttle. I have had it for awhile and have had no problems, but I would like to clean it to keep up on it. I like it better than the precision pro because it is built alot better, it is quite heavy. I was thinking of getting a joystick with 2 hat switches and more buttons to program(never seem to have enough buttons:) ). The saitek x45 looks like a cheap alternative to the cougar. I would rather go with the cougar, but let's face it, $300.00 is a steep price.Does either stick twist if you don't have rudder pedals? It appears to me the guys who came up with the cougar and set the price do not have wives:(
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the x45 has a rudder on the throttle it is under the handgrip where you use your fingers to actuate it. i hated it at first but like it now. i have never used rudder peddles Twisty and then x36/x45.
you can use it with regular ones also.
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I have x45...use to have some twisty thing. I didn't much much care for the rudder control on the x45...got some CH pro peds, Wow, what a difference.
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Do the pedals make that big a difference? What do they do that the twist doesn't?
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I have the full CH USB setup (combat stick, pro throttle, pro pedals) and I'm very happy with it. All a matter of taste really.
Charon
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Do the pedals make that big a difference? What do they do that the twist doesn't?
Imagine trying to drive/race your car with the clutch and throttle built into the steering wheel,... doable, but less precise than on the floor. 3 axis is just a bit too much for one hand to do all jobs very well.
eskimo
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I have both Cougar and a CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals set up. Both set ups cost about the same, once you buy pedals for the Cougar. The Cougar is an impressive piece of equipment and it looks good on my shelf, but I use the CH stuff.
The following is purely my personal view, and I know that many (who are much better virtual pilots than me) disagree. That said, here is my take on the Cougar:
Pros
1. The all-metal look and feel is first rate, and the Cougar appears to be a high-fidelity copy of the real F16's control stick.
2. The switches are solid and the increased throw of the primary hat switch allows more accuracy when selecting views.
3. Its programmability is incredible. You can make it do (almost) whatever you can imagine.
4. The resolution of the pots is excellent, although their precision is offset to some extent by the joystick's play about its center and the stiffness of the springs (see below).
5. The throttle has two rotary axes that you can program to issue keypresses or program to an analog control. They would be ideal to control trim in AH, if it had the ability to map analog axes to the trim controls.
Cons
1. The default spring tension is far too strong (for my liking), and attempting to lessen the tension by bending or replacing the springs (with F22 springs, available from Thrustmaster via their web site for about $10) yielded a very "sloppy" center with a "mushy" feel.
2. There is entirely too much x and y axis play in the stick. I would say that each of my Cougars (I have had two, because I had to send the first back after the view hat switch went bad after about a month) had as much or more axis play than an old X36 stick that I have used for about a year. I have tried the non-exotic mods described on Cougar's world, to no perceivable effect.
3. Because the spring tension is so strong in both the x and y directions, it feels like there is a detent when the stick is centered. There is not, of course, but attempting small, precise movements away from center was difficult (for me). Attempting to transition the stick smoothly along a diagonal through the center point was particularly difficult.
4. The Cougar Control panel allows you great flexibility in setting up axis response curves, deadbands, etc. for all of the Cougar's axes. Using any but the default linear settings yielded erratic results in AH, however. There is at least one thread about setting up the Cougar's axes in the AH forums, so if you go this route, I suggest you dig it up.
5. Cougar allows you to plug in a "standard" set of analog rudder pedals (e.g., TM Elite Pedals, CH Pedals, or CH Pro Pedals (gameport, not USB)). If you do so, the Cougar will recognize the rudder axis but not the toe brake axes (in the case of CH Pro Pedals, for instance). You can rewire the Pro Pedals to make them work (I have done this), but it is a nuisance. If you only want to use you Cougar for AH, just get a set of CH Pro Pedals USB, because AH (unlike some other games like Mechwarrior IV, etc.) has no trouble with multiple control devices.
6. After using the CH setup, I miss the extra buttons and hat switches on the CH Pro Throttle that are not on the Cougar throttle. Because AH does not allow analog trim axes, I don't miss Cougar's analog rotaries.
I hope that is useful.
- JNOV
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Let me ask this, I have a twist joystick for rudder. If I buy a set of pedals,will they work? And can I disable the twist?
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Thx for all replys, still not shure what to do......
I do use Win XP pro, but if I understand it right, that is a good thing when you use Cougar , right ?
I see lots of people talk about CH pedals, are these better than TM Elite pedals, personally I think the TM set looks better(cooler), but I know looks aint all.
I am leaning towards the Cougar investment, but it is a hard choice.
Lasse
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Yup - XP & Saitek --> uh oh! - XP & Cougar --> SWEET!
About the rudders: Had CH Pro rudders for quite some time - they were old, ok - but spikey as hell and for some reason not able to calibrate in Windoze. Along with the Cougar I got TM Elite rudders. The feet spacing is wider (good!) but they felt quite hard, wasn't able to do fluid movements. Now I used a bit of lubrication and the wear off from extensive use made it perfect. Very smooth, precise control!
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I recommend loosening the Cougar's springs before the center horizontal steel axle wears off too much of the surrounding soft metal.
The springs require only a small amount of bending to give a looser touch to stick. You also must remember to bend the spring ends a bit upwards so that they touch the support pins in right angles. If you don't conserve the right angles you'll have a very mid-sloppy stick... ;)
-Charge+
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Let me ask this, I have a twist joystick for rudder. If I buy a set of pedals,will they work? And can I disable the twist?
yes
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My experience:
Cougar=bad:
- impossible to install correctly, Win98SE keeps losing the stick (while playing, downloading a config, restarting the device, flashing the firmware...)
- horrid center play coupled with high stick forces: absolutely inaccurate
Some good points though:
- state-of-the art programming: you can almost do anything you want with it
- axes can be analog AND digital at the same time
- rotary axes are neat....for WWIIOnline, or another sim, because AH can't use them digitally (think vator trim on a rotary knob).
CH Fighterstick and Pro Throttle=good:
- very easy to install and configure: I had it set up in one hour.
- really accurate
- drivers stability seems rock solid
Some 'weaknesses':
- less programming fancy functions
- you need 3 free USB ports for a whole set (stick, throttle + pedals) instead of 1 for the Cougar (if your pedals are gameport)
My advice: if you don't have too much free time and you don't want to have to fiddle with the inners of your stick: don't go Cougar. CH is less advanced but much more accurate and stable out-of-the-box.
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Originally posted by Charge
I recommend loosening the Cougar's springs before the center horizontal steel axle wears off too much of the surrounding soft metal.
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This is the biggest issue with the Cougar IMHO: The way axles are connected is just plain poor engineering, and I would like to see how much wear you'll get after 2-3 years of use...
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Sixpence:
Yes, if you buy a set of rudder pedals, they will work, at least in AH. In AH, you can map any analog control axis that Windows recognizes to any analog control axis. If, for instance, you plug in a set of CH Pro Pedals USB, you can go to AH's joystick set-up, and map the rudder control to your Pro Pedals' rudder axis, instead of your stick's twist axis. While you're at it, you can also map AH's left and right wheel brake controls to the Pro Pedals' toe brakes -- very nice.
I used to have a Logitech Wingman or some such joystick that had a twisty handle. I found it incredibly annoying, and, if I recall correctly, there was a set screw that I tightened to prevent the handle from twisting.
- JNOV
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Originally posted by Sixpence
It appears to me the guys who came up with the cougar and set the price do not have wives:(
Not always.... :) Zeb and I both have a Cougar following several years of flying with all CH setups. We have kept our CH Pro-Pedals, which plug into the back of the joystick, and Zeb has set his up for toe-brakes too. I have never had a problem with the stiffness of the joystick, it just feels very smooth and positive. The programming can be as simple or as complicated as you wish, with quite a few profiles already set up if you'd rather use somebody else's. Zeb is also a beta tester for the software, which is continually being updated. IMO, you can't go wrong with the Cougar! :D
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Get a Cougar and you will never look back, a great stick with programmability that surpasses anything on the market. If you buy one then download the latest drivers and update the stick to the latest firmware. I have a Cougar using both CH USB Pro Pedals and TM Elites and both work well. If you're buying for just AH and newer sims that support more than one controller input then go for the CH USB pedals, if you want to play older stuff like Falcon4 and Flanker 2 then get the TM Elites as they plug directly into the Cougar and the whole rig get's seen as one device.
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Thanx 4 the replies:D
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My Cougar is worth every penny I paid for it.
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Not accurate counting, but I get the feel that it is 75% for and 25% against The cougar.
I specially liked the replys from Kirin and Flossy :), looks like I have to do some investing in hardware pretty soon ;)
Anyone have links to any tests done of the cougar ?
Lasse
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Testings done by users...
Cougar's world (http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=8)
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When reading different posts at the Cougar`s world, I get the feeling that there is lots of owners that get problems with it, and they have to fix or modify their sticks themselves....
Paying 300$ for a Hotas set, I expect 100% realibility, doesent look like it is like that over there........worried now.........hmmm.....
(And there are rumors that TM is laying of lots of people, including the Cougar team, and in that process stopping further developement of additional harware and software) But that is rumors.....
Lasse