Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: J_A_B on October 02, 2002, 08:55:18 PM
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Some names are just crossing the line, characters or not. This just doesn't belong in AH and it shouldn't even be an option to use it. :mad:
Attachment should be following:
J_A_B
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What's so bad about an SS squad?
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Of all the German organizations during WWII, the SS is by far the most infamous - and the least understood amongst average historians. The SS was in fact not a monolithic "Black Corps" of goose stepping Gestapo men, as is often depicted in popular media and in many third rate historical works. The SS was in reality a complex political and military organization made up of three separate and distinct branches, all related but equally unique in their functions and goals. The Allgemeine-SS (General SS) was the main branch of this overwhelmingly complex organization, and it served a politicial and administrative role. The SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) and later, the Waffen-SS (Armed SS), were the other two branches that made up the structure of the SS. The Waffen-SS, formed in 1940, was the true military formation of the larger SS, and as such, it is the main focus of this section. Formed from the SS-Verfungstruppe after the Campaign in France in 1940, the Waffen-SS would become an elite military formation of nearly 600,000 men by the time WWII was over. Its units would spearhead some of the most crucial battles of WWII while its men would shoulder some of the most difficult and daunting combat opertations of all the units in the German military. The Waffen-SS is sometimes thought of as the 4th branch of the German Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine) as in the field it came under the direct tactical control of the OKW, although this notion is technically incorrect as strategic control remained within the hands of the SS. To this day the actions of the Waffen-SS and its former members are vilified for ultimately being a part of the larger structure of the political Allgemeine-SS, regardless of the fact that the Waffen-SS was a front line combat organization.
If the above is a true account, I see nothing wrong with the title. It's no different than the Luftwaffe.
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"It's no different than the Luftwaffe."
ROTFLMAO
These scum were the true-believer Nazis, Hitler's willing henchmen. They were an "elite" force, literally the cream of the Nazi crop, dedicated to the "cause". You know, the guys that the AH LW fans try so hard to distance themselves from?
J_A_B
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The Waffen-SS - which translates as "Weapon-SS" or "Armed-SS", was the military wing of the Shutzstaffel. It's conceptual origins lay in the "politische bereitschaften" - or "political ready reserves" in the early days of the Nazi movement. These reserves were the fanatical Nazi's who would protect the party leaders and ruthlessly attack all enemies during the political chaos of Germany in the 1920's & '30's. It is important to distinguish that serving in the Waffen-SS (a military organization with foreign troops and conscription) wasn't the same as membership in the SS (a Nazi political organization and executive arm for racial Germans), although the 2 states commingled. The Waffen-SS was expected to be a military organization absolutely and perfectly obedient and loyal to its master, Adolf Hitler.
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Didnt the SS run the camps where five MILLION men women and CHILDREN were murderd??
Why would anyone of sound mind want to be associated with that :confused: ...Duck
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Im with sandman here. I dont really see anything wrong with the name. Because after all, it is just that...a name.
I guess i can understand why some people would be offended by the handle, but let's not go off censoring history.
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Originally posted by GRDuckett
Didnt the SS run the camps where five MILLION men women and CHILDREN were murderd??
Why would anyone of sound mind want to be associated with that :confused: ...Duck
In June 1944, the SS Waffen had over 350,000 troops.
A bit more than necessary for concentration camps don't you think?
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Sandman, can you read your own material?
"The Waffen-SS was expected to be a military organization absolutely and perfectly obedient and loyal to its master, Adolf Hitler. "
Something you really want to role-play in a game?
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
In June 1944, the SS Waffen had over 350,000 troops.
A bit more than necessary for concentration camps don't you think?
So you are saying that because not all SS were directly involved with genocide that the rest of em are great guys or somethin?
They were all part of the Nazi war machine that was prepaired to murder every jew on the planet. How is this OK?
I dont really understand how this makes the SS a respectable organization?
Why would you want to emulate(sp) this group of people?
Duck
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Originally posted by GRDuckett
So you are saying that because not all SS were directly involved with genocide that the rest of em are great guys or somethin?
They were all part of the Nazi war machine that was prepaired to murder every jew on the planet. How is this OK?
I dont really understand how this makes the SS a respectable organization?
Why would you want to emulate(sp) this group of people?
Duck
What makes the SS Waffen any different than the Luftwaffe?
It's estimated that over 180,000 Waffen-SS were killed in action.
You do understand that the Waffen-SS included foreign volunteers and conscripts?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
What makes the SS Waffen any different than the Luftwaffe?
It's estimated that over 180,000 Waffen-SS were killed in action.
You do understand that the Waffen-SS included foreign volunteers and conscripts?
Well, I guess because in this combat sim I assume that people are interested in the LW because of thier aircraft. Not due to thier political agendas or moral beliefs.
What could this flight sim possibly have to do with the SS ?
On the other hand I can see where it does have alot to do with the LW.
Do we need to drag out the film of SS officers ripping 2 year old children from thier mothers arms to haul them to the gas chamber? I have seen the film and it brings me to tears every time. Think about it....5 million people.
Does 180,00 SS dying in battle somehow cleanse the actions of the rest of the organization? And what did they die fighting for? A nation that was prepaired to murder 30 or 40 million people.
I just dont understand why this would be an appealing role model for a flight simulator.
Duck
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"What makes the SS Waffen any different than the Luftwaffe? "
As the LW fans of AH are so commonly pointing out, the LW was composed of plenty of guys who didn't give a damn about Hitler or the Nazi ideals.
Which is NOT true of the Waffen SS. The whole POINT of this organization was it was the guys who really believed in what they were doing and fighting for, both native born Germans and foreigners who likened to "the cause". This was their top-of-the-line unit, the pride of the Nazis, the guys who not only fought for Germany but LIKED it.
Those SS letters weren't a meaningless designation.
The fact is, HTC is known to monitor and limit what names users can select based on what they feel is "good" for AH. As I so often point out, I can't use my normal ID because HTC feels that characters like _'s are "bad" for AH. "Censorship" as some might call it is already a feature of AH (note the lack of Swastikas on German fighters).
If HTC is concerned enough about AH's image to limit perfectly innocent names and change historical vehicle paintjobs, I'd EXPECT them to disallow the name of the Nazi true-believer component of the German army.
J_A_B
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"Censorship" as some might call it is already a feature of AH (note the lack of Swastikas on German fighters).
J_A_B [/I]
well J_A_B u have some good points...
as an LW squad in AH we dont follow any political agenda...
read the first page of our website (http://home.wi.rr.com/jabostaffelhq)
also i read that 1/3 to 1/2 of real LW pilots took the Swastikas (had to look at ur spelling of that LOL) off their planes by '43.
back to topic .. here is a pic i just did of the 109G-2 in AH....
personally all i fly is the Dora but this in in AH
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Hey, last time I checked this is a free country.
All that 1st amendment stuff ya know.
If a guy wants to call himself Adolf let him, I don't care. It's his $15 and as Sandman pointed out, the Waffen-SS was not exactly the SS.
On a side note Jab, did your mother ever firmly say no to you? You keep asking for the _'s for your name, Hitech has repeatedly said no, but you keep bugging about it. I would think that once he said no, he meant no. I guess he meant yes in a no sorta way?
No?
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JB73 that is not a swastika on the G2.
Do some reading on the Llv34 page to find out what that really is
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Originally posted by JB73
back to topic .. here is a pic i just did of the 109G-2 in AH....
I thought those were Finnish Air Force Markings, although the look like Swastikas.
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While the Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the concentration camps they were responsible for numerous atrocities and war crimes. The Waffen-SS frequently butchered prisoners and were often involved in the massacres of "undesirables" that occured when enemy towns and villagers were captured. A large number of Waffen-SS men where prosecuted and convicted at Nuremburg.
As such I cannot see how anyone can see how a Waffen-SS handle or squad could be considered appropriate.
I also cannot see how any comparison between the LW and the Waffen-SS can be valid. Whatever thier politcal leanings the LW's conduct during the War can in no way be considered similar to the Waffen-SS's.
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Originally posted by GRDuckett
Well, I guess because in this combat sim I assume that people are interested in the LW because of thier aircraft. Not due to thier political agendas or moral beliefs.
What could this flight sim possibly have to do with the SS ?
On the other hand I can see where it does have alot to do with the LW.
I just dont understand why this would be an appealing role model for a flight simulator.
Duck
Aces High has Panzers. The Waffen SS had a Panzer division.
Are you getting it yet?
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Some names are just crossing the line, characters or not. This just doesn't belong in AH and it shouldn't even be an option to use it. :mad:
Attachment should be following:
J_A_B
Oh please! This is just plain ludicrous.
Shall we remember this is not real life?
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Originally posted by Pei
While the Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the concentration camps they were responsible for numerous atrocities and war crimes.
All 900,000 of them?
I also cannot see how any comparison between the LW and the Waffen-SS can be valid. Whatever thier politcal leanings the LW's conduct during the War can in no way be considered similar to the Waffen-SS's.
You are talking about the same Luftwaffe that dropped bombs on British civilians?
The notion that a LW pilot was somehow more noble than a Waffen SS conscript is hilarious.
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More Noble? No
Did the LW systematicaly gather up and massacre civilian? No
Did the LW systematicaly murder POWs? No
The fact remains that Waffen-SS commited more war crimes than any other military organization in the ETO.
All the major airforces during the war deliberately bombed cities and you can easily argue that when it comes to firebombing cities the RAF and the USAAF have got the LW beat hands down.
Is there is difference between this and dragging men and women from thier homes and shooting them in the back of the head? History says yes.
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Moose--I will bug HTC about the ID thing forever, just as people who wish for a specific plane lobby for it. Insinuating that I'm an immature brat doesn't make for a good argument, but it DOES make you look like a total jerk.
Besides, the fact that HTC is known to limit what ID's people can select is at the very HEART of this issue. I mean, if HTC let people call themselves anything they wanted to and let the community police itself, then the people crying "no censorship" would be right.
But that's not how it is in AH. HTC actively limits what people can call themselves and even goes so far as to alter historical markings on equipment in the name of what they see as good for AH. Their in-game monitors mute people for "being annoying". HTC takes a very active role in trying to maintain the atmosphere they want in AH. AH is already "censored", so the people claiming "first amendment" lack any real argument.
If a racist or bigoted name crops up in AH, then it IS HTC's duty to eliminate it. They're MADE it their duty. And, while I disagree with their decision in regards to censorship, they've been consistent enough in application that I have little doubt this issue will soon be taken care of. That was the original purpose of this thread--to inform them. HTC has little choice but to act....inaction on THIS issue when they've acted on so many other issues would be equal to them saying they WANT this sort of name in AH.
The rest of this thread beyond the first post is a debate between players and not so much directed at HTC.
The Waffen-SS was conceptually composed of those soldiers who really believed in Nazi doctrine. Eventually, when Germany was suffering lack of manpower, some unwilling soldiers may have been forced into the Waffen-SS out of need (this is debatable as to how unwilling they actually were). Does that in any way change what this unit was created for or what it stood for? It wasn't just the German army or airforce, it was the "special forces", the Nazi true-believers.
All else aside. whoever would want to name himself after that is a sickwad.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Pei
All the major airforces during the war deliberately bombed cities and you can easily argue that when it comes to firebombing cities the RAF and the USAAF have got the LW beat hands down.
Is there is difference between this and dragging men and women from thier homes and shooting them in the back of the head? History says yes.
Of course it does. The RAF and USAAF were on the side that got to write it.
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Bad taste.
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Personally I think it is not offensive, But on the other hand I see that this player might have trouble making friends in the main arena.
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What really bugs me is the way people moralise and bloat simple things up.
The fact is that SS existed during WW2. The fact is that Hitler was the leader of the country. The fact is that common, honest people joined NSDAP and followed Hitler as their great idol. They believed that they were doing the right thing, overwhelmed by his charm and propaganda.
Now that germany lost the war, everything nazi related has become a tabu and people make comparisons like those people were devil worshippers and bottomless evil.
If germany would have won the war, similar comparisons would have been made of allied leaders, probably mostly of Stalin.
Many seem to forget that the people fighting on the other side were no different to the common people who fought on your side. They were someones sons, fathers, uncles, even grandparents. If they were nazi, so what? Most of the germans were during those times.
Once again the attrocities performed by a small group of rotten apples (holocaust, landgrabs) labeled the whole mass who in reality had nothing to do with it. It's a bit like labeling all the dem's adulterers and sex maniacs because Clinton made a mistake (in getting caught) which in the end was completely humane and normal thing for a man to do.
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Hussein gets it
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tasteless
SSviking got a new friend in the game.
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i think it's totally inappropriate for use as a handle in the game.
whoever it is, is one sick puppy.
since he seems to be rook, if i see him on, i'll glady vector anyone to his position.
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* snickers in cynicism * :rolleyes:
What if someone chooses a "KGB" or a "CIA" as a part of his handle? Would it be any different?
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but yes, as a rule, any handle which can create an offending aura between users around the world, or affiliated with politically sensitive material, or associated with controversial historic events, should be prohibited as a part of a handle.
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How about this one for a real winner....look in the roster in between MrFixIt and Mtwd8st.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"It's no different than the Luftwaffe."
The SS and in particular the Waffen SS was the child of Himmler just as the Luftwaffe was the child of Goering........
Hitlers "henchmen" were always jealous of each others power and wanted to create units within the armed forces loyal to them Himmler developed the Waffen SS for this purpose....whilst working within the chain of command of the whermacht their loyalties were not to the whermacht .
Latterly Goebbels too created his own fighting units with his Police battalions...... these units were directly responsible for the annialation of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians across Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and (in particular) the Ukraine..... they were mercilessly hunted by Red Army units and Partisans during the retreat of 44/45.
In fact the most outstanding atrocity of the Waffen SS occurred in France where a whole village was massacred on the suspision that it harboured resistance fighters. The Waffen SS enjoyed the best of provisions and resources/logistics often getting material originally bound for heavily pressed units elsewhere on the front. There is no doubt however that they were an elite group of fighters who played a decisive and often pivitol role in many eastern fron battles.
We draw very subtle distinctions here between what is and is not brought to our game from the original history...............
Drawing some sort of imaginary line to say that every thing over it is inherently evil and every thing before it is inherently good is a great misnomer.............
However it will be true that what is acceptable to some will not be to others....................
....................... as long as the politics and atrocities of Nazi Europe are remembered and guarded against elsewhere I see no reason to bring them into this game...either as chat on channel 1 or as a method of deciding who can have what handle.............
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Now that germany lost the war, everything nazi related has become a tabu...
You sound almost disappointed.
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I'd assume they would act on this name due to the *extremely* negative connotations. Of course if they don't, a few well placed screen-shots of said name would speed things up. :)
There's a line here. People can pretend to be virtual German Pilots or Axis pilots. There's no need for virtual Nazi's. BIG difference.
-W
Originally posted by J_A_B
If a racist or bigoted name crops up in AH, then it IS HTC's duty to eliminate it. They're MADE it their duty. And, while I disagree with their decision in regards to censorship, they've been consistent enough in application that I have little doubt this issue will soon be taken care of. That was the original purpose of this thread--to inform them. HTC has little choice but to act....inaction on THIS issue when they've acted on so many other issues would be equal to them saying they WANT this sort of name in AH.
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Well, Germans are offended by the callsign "Waffen SS" and many other people in Europe are too.
Maybe Americans would feel the same if "Waffen SS" units would have visited the USA in WW2.
What about some idiot uses "Osama Bin Laden" as callsign next, in combination with "TwinTowerKillers" as squadname?
Blitz
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Originally posted by Straffo
"SSviking got a new friend in the game."
You assume that it refers to the SS Viking Division.
The S.S. Viking was also a ship that blew up off the coast of Newfoundland in 1931. I'm sure that this is not the only case of a ship being called 'Viking'
Gatso
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There is a player named SSViking ...
It was especially noticable because he kept yelling on radio because no one was giving 6 calls nor help ...
Choosing a offensive(*) handle is a bad idea IMO
And I've seen some of his numerous death without any concern...
(*) for some of us
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Everything points out to Saddam being the next bad boy in history..
Does that mean that I'm not allowed to use this nick anymore?
Come on, I know americans love censorship and closing thier eyes from obvious.. But it doesn't change the history nor does it change the future. People just get offended WAY too easy.
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Originally posted by JB73
back to topic .. here is a pic i just did of the 109G-2 in AH....
personally all i fly is the Dora but this in in AH
Here is info from LLv34's web pages about blue swastika:
The Story of FAF symbols
Let's make something clear right now. First to avoid misunderstandings: Swastika is an ancient Aryan and Buddhist mystic symbol. Its was adopted by FAF years before the Nazis even exist and so it has nothing to do with them. And that's it!
The Swastika symbol
The first symbol was born when swedish von Rosen donated Thulin typ D to Finlands white army in 1918. (In Finlands early years there was cruel national war where were goverments white army against revolutional red army). The Swastika was the symbol of Mr von Rosen and it was adopted to FAF. At the end of the second world war had world became allergic to swastika and it had to replaced.
The roundel symbol
After the swastika had became symbol of bad, not due to FAF, it was replaced with roundel symbol 1944-1945. Ever since its been in use, but its reduced quite much to get better "invisibility" for the planes.
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And here is another one for you to rant about JAB :)
(http://www.gilligansisle.com/minnow/3c.jpg)
I always knew there was something funny about that Skipper!
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Names like that remind me of playing DOD with a bunch of 12 year old foul mouthed WaffenSS obersturmfuhrers, but at least over there they will try to balance the numbers and prevent gangbangs. (Bish numbers whine!) :D
Honestly I think its stupid and distatesteful to have such a name in this game even though I recognize the clear distinction between the Waffen SS and other branches of the SS political organization. Frankly fighting in the east overall they acted no better or worse than any other ground unit on either side - they just happened to bring that east front attitude to the western fighting and thats how they got the infamous reputation from allies.
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The name WaffenSS is disgusting! If not for u, for me any many other people it is. It is totally unimportent if ur offended by this name or not, I AM!!!
I'm interested in the technical issues of this game. I'm interested in the historical background but there's only one truth and this is: Nazism was and is the worst that existed and exists.
It's often a tightrope walk to love LW planes and honor even german pilots but no one can honor any group of nazi lover SS NO ONE!
And no one should be allowed to take a handle like this. It's the same with the GERMAN swastikas (not the finish, plz dont compare them).
As i said before its totaly irrelevant if u are OK with this handle or not. I cant accept this and I really like HTC to disallow such things.
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We're playing a game with the objective of "killing" our opponents, and we get offended by a player's choice for his game identity.....
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so you would be happy to see "Osama" of the "TwinTowerKillers" ?
disgusting :(
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oedipus... when did I take a shot at your handle? I merely asked you to say hi to mom for me.
lazs
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Anybody remember the last time this waffen guy caused a big long thread in here? Seems like that one was over a hundred replies.
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Seen the positive way, all the guys getting worked up over this handle will get a warm, fuzzy feeling when it says on their screen...
You shot down SSWaffen!
I mean, where else do you get to bash them SS bastards!?
;)
-AmboSS
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Originally posted by popeye
We're playing a game with the objective of "killing" our opponents, and we get offended by a player's choice for his game identity.....
When I was at Air Warrior, this exact topic came up, and my initial reaction was exactly the same as yours, popeye. It makes eminent good sense, on a logical and unemotional level. I objected to policy there that prohibited this type of in-game ID (any with Nazi associations), both because of what you expressed here, and the "free speech" issue.
However, during the ensuing discussions, I was convinced to change my opinion by listening to players from Germany and other parts of Europe. Just as blitz pointed out in this thread, Nazi associations and symbols are viewed with MUCH more seriousness than here in the USA. People there, for their own reasons, even see fit to make this kind of thing illegal. By an overwhelming majority, German players expressed to me the desire to have these things banned. Many other Europeans said they felt the same.
It was out of my respect for the feelings of the German and other European members of the game community that I changed my mind. Sometimes you have to balance one desire against another. I decided that my feelings about "free speech" and "a game atmosphere that involves killing" weren't as important as the profound bad feelings Nazi associations created in the heart of a large group of fellow players.
Not that it mattered much what me or anyone else thought, moggy was in charge and he delighted in stomping on anything Nazi ;)
culero (not saying AH has to mimic AW, just saying)
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JB73 that is not a swastika on the G2.
Swastika, hakenkreuz, fylfot, crux gammata, crux dissimulata, cross cramponee, croix gammee, wan, tetraskelion, gammadion, Jaina cross, pramantha -- what's in a name?
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/151.html
What if someone chooses a "KGB" or a "CIA" as a part of his handle? Would it be any different?
NKVD. Let's at least stay in period.
I'd assume they would act on this name due to the *extremely* negative connotations. Of course if they don't, a few well placed screen-shots of said name would speed things up.
What -- lurk around him until you can get screenshots of him jaboing the church in one of the towns, and then use that in an inflammatory argument to get his handle changed?
SSviking got a new friend in the game.
If you're assuming that 'SSviking' refers to the Finnish volunteer SS division, it was referred to as 'Wiking', not 'Viking'.
(http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/wiking.gif)
This is a game. Not a forumn for attention starved twits or bad taste political grandstanding.
I agree. Political grandstanding should be disallowed.
Same with idiotic handles like "gonorhea"
So your position is that political grandstanding should be disallowed, unless it's you grandstanding to get rid of something you don't want to see? And then you hurriedly run and try to defend your handle, even though someone could easily be just as offended by your choice of handle.
If you have the right to demand that someone else change their handle because it offends you, then anyone has the right to demand that you change your handle because it offends [/u]them[/u]. You can't have it both ways. Either accept the premise that everyone's got the inalienable right to be a fsckwit and pick a handle that annoys other people, or take your marbles and play somewhere else.
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Originally posted by straffo
so you would be happy to see "Osama" of the "TwinTowerKillers" ?
disgusting :(
ROFL!! Funny coming from a guy who has no problem calling someone ELSE Osama....
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In the meantime realise that no one has an "inalienable right" to anything for simply subscribing to AH - except those defined by HTC. This is not a public street corner, it's a private business.
game. set. match. All the free speech rah-rah stuff is just BS.
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Originally posted by Tumor
ROFL!! Funny coming from a guy who has no problem calling someone ELSE Osama....
?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Aces High has Panzers. The Waffen SS had a Panzer division.
Are you getting it yet?
Point taken. I still dont like it.
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Originally posted by Hussein
Come on, I know americans love censorship and closing thier eyes from obvious.. But it doesn't change the history nor does it change the future. People just get offended WAY too easy.
Wow...The statements on this BB sometimes astound me.
You must be using the "force" to be able to make such "accurate" generalizations about an entire nation of people. Say hi to yoda for me.:rolleyes:
Last time I looked the US was one of a few nations that allow total freedom of press.
Im sure there is no such sensorship in bagdad.
Duck
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SS, Waffen SS, LuftWaffe, Hitler's Boy scouts (aka Hitler's Youth)...
All the same. Some swept up in it for the good of the country, some for their own agenda, and some to be the best lil' Hitler they could be.
I could go through the SS, Waffen SS, LuftWaffe and Hitler's Youths and find just as many people who loved Hitler and would of died for him as I would for the guys who just thought it was the right thing to do in their country.
Trying to justify the 1930s-1945 LuftWaffe as more innocent than any of the aforementioned groups is simply revisionist.
Those that fought for love of their country and defense of their homeland were a dime a dozen in the LuftWaffe, especially if they were on the offensive in the initial years.
Remember that before you try to sing the tune that one of Hitler's military groups was somehow more innocent or better to "play pretend" with.
-SW
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Gotta love all this rushing to the defense of idiots stuff here.
"Oh oh! The SS used conscripts!"
Yeah yeah. Germany used conscripts everywhere when things got despirate in their final year. But the SS was originally comprised of the more fanatical elements (all volunteers) that took an oath ... not to Germany ... but to Hitler. Their fanaticism made them the perfect unquestioning executionists. Those that were in the field were there only by circumstance. They could just as easily have been posted to run death camps or perform the more personal executions for Hitler in his presense. And would have ... without question. The fact that there were foriegn volunteers doesn't cast them in a good light. :rolleyes:
"Oh oh! The Waffen SS are sooo misunderstood and vilified!"
Yeah yeah. The Allies "wrote history" so it's obviously wrong. Had the Nazis won it would have been oh so much more accurate under their totalitarian regime. :rolleyes:
"Oh oh! SSViking is a ship! He named himself after a ship!"
Yeah yeah. He had a boner for that ship name. :rolleyes:
"Oh oh! Freedom of speech! We all have the right to be offensive as we want in public and nobody or nothing can stop us!"
Yeah yeah. Goosestep in our next 4th of July parade here sporting an SS uniform and spouting obscenities. You better hope you're arrested before you get your adolescent butts kicked in by 85 yr old vets who still got some fight left in em. Bet there wouldn't be a single witness. :D
Oh ... and Oeddy is a momma's boy! :p *chuckle*
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I know, let's get offended when people claim to be Catholic because of the atrocities commited by Catholics during the crusades! That's it! The NAME "Catholic" should be banned, because their actions were so offensive...
:rolleyes:
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"Oh oh! Ze Catholics vere vorse!"
Gotta love it! :rolleyes:
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This is Hi-tech's house. This is Hi-tech's decision.
I doubt he will let it stand, but it's still his choice.
Freedom of Speech does not apply here. You can say anything you want on my street, but as soon as you walk into my house, if I don't like what you have to say, you're getting booted out.
On a side note, whoever this SSWaffen is, we're playing right into his hands. Chances are he took this handle to get a reaction.
Congratulations; mission accomplished.
Some people don't care whether they get negative attention, or positive, just as long as they get some attention.
As for my feelings, I feel this handle should be disallowed. I point to the many posts beforehand that say if this is allowed, why not have handles like IluvKKK, etc.
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There seems to be an influx of really terrible names lately. Just last night I saw "pnus" and a few others.. time for spring cleaning.
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Yeah, well... "pnus" has been around for years.. even back in WB when HT ran that game... so I guess what's offensive to some others don't mind.
On a side note... please sweet jebus, let this thread die!!
(http://www.il2center.com/CFS3/Shot06.jpg)
-SW
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So.... puns on genitalia are accepted but historical fiction squads/names aren't. Whats the difference if someone wants to see you killed by a johnson in the buffer verses something evil in the world.. both are still rude IMHO.
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I never sided with either side on this issue Sun...
My opinion? I don't give a rat's bellybutton what someone has as a handle, they still get shot down the same.
It's what they type on global/country channel that matters, because then everyone has to deal with the rantings.
-SW
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funny there is a HUGE uproar when someone is name sswaffen (wich means nothing to somepeople as they have no grasp on history) but when someone calls themselfs
urmom
ic8jews/studmuffins/negros
and noone cares. (ic8 is bad but urmom is just new and is getting better)
and then theres people with innocent names like
coach21 or agent69 and there the WORST of people
ITS THE PERSON NOT THE NAME.
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Welp, I read the entire thread, and I have but one thing to say:
You guys wear me out...think I'll take a nap, now.
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" Thare's werse naymes then thet wun. Yawl jus down't no whut it meens cuz yawl are ignunt. Beesides, is the peeple nut the nayme. Thay caint hep whut thay nayme thayselfs but thay akt gude." :rolleyes:
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This is not a public street corner, it's a private business.
That's right, Oedipus -- and because HTC's already accepted the name, that's it and the discussion's over. If they bow to one flamewar over someone's handle and make them change it, then they've established a precedent that will let anyone else who takes offense at someone's handle pressure HTC to force it to be changed.
There are social pressures within the game; lean on him to request that he change his own handle by not giving him '6' calls, by not going to his aid, and telling him [/u]why[/u] this is happening. Whining to HTC to get them to force the change sounds too much like running to your mommy because your playmate won't play fair and expecting her to deal with it.
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HTC accepted it or waffen got away with it? Yeah, when people push the limit and get away with it then it's too late, pandora's box is wide open and everyone gets a shot. I don't buy that for a second. Sometimes people create situations that need retrospective review and possible retroactive action. Sometimes people have to bring it to someone's attention. Sometimes it gets things changed. Sometimes it doesn't. Tell the traffic cop that stops you for speeding that it's too late, you've been getting away with it for a year already.
"It's too late he got away with it." :rolleyes:
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If everyone can stop the pissing contest for a moment I have a question. Has anyone contacted sswaffen yet? Has anyone asked him why he chose that name? Has anyone shown him how objectionable it is to some people?
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Dammit beav, you're no fun! Besides, stepping between pissing contestants is a good way to get wet!
:p
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Originally posted by dBeav
If everyone can stop the pissing contest for a moment I have a question. Has anyone contacted sswaffen yet? Has anyone asked him why he chose that name? Has anyone shown him how objectionable it is to some people?
who cares? you think *he* does?
the real point is whether HTC is going to do anything about it. i'll be watching with real interest.
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OK, so the guy obviously has a poor choice in a handle. Perhaps a little insensitive. This guy is just some idiot who knows not of history or is just trying to stir the pot. Anyone who tries to defend the name just ask yourselves this.
You're a German soldier on the Russian front 1945 about to surrender. You can choose between a regular German army uniform and an SS uniform. What do you pick and why?
Without writing a new book on atrocities and war crimes I'll simply assume we all know the answer to the above question.
The US is so media controlled the idea of "Free Speech" has been tainted to the point you don't realize where it's been covered up. If the guy wants to use the name you can't stop him under the constitution. It just means he's a moron, nothing more.
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Originally posted by MotorOil
The US is so media controlled the idea of "Free Speech" has been tainted to the point you don't realize where it's been covered up. If the guy wants to use the name you can't stop him under the constitution. It just means he's a moron, nothing more.
the constitution doesn't apply to a privately owned enterprise. HTC is free to boot/ban whomever whenever for whyever and whatever they want.
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Waffen SS were bad, but we have guys simulating other branches of Nazi-controlled military here. As other guys pointed out, Waffen SS were elite combat troops, not the guys running the ovens and camps. I don't see a big problem. You can't play Cowboys and Indians if nobody is willing to play the Indians.
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Regarding the 109G-2's swastika:
.."the old Finnish Air Force national insignia, the blue swastika, which dates back to 1918, when Swedish count Eric von Rosen donated the first aircraft for the Finnish Air Force. The blue swastika was the old Hindu lucky sign that the Rosen family used and had nothing to do with the later Nazi swastika."
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/me-fin-1.htm
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the constitution doesn't apply to a privately owned enterprise. HTC is free to boot/ban whomever whenever for whyever and whatever they want.
I'm sure that's in the HT's disclaimer. HT does have thier own image to protect and that's thier right.
I'm talking a little beyond the realm of HT with regards to "Free Speech"
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Can't believe you guys let Sandman troll you like this.
He knows history,,,,,,,,
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Originally posted by funkedup
Waffen SS were elite combat troops, not the guys running the ovens and camps.
They were Waffen SS because of the roll of the die. Chances are it was a roll they lost. Do you really think the SS soldiers on the Eastern front wouldn't have traded places with the ones at Auswitz without giving it a second thought and considering themselves lucky to boot? Sure, someone plays the "bad guys" but they don't hafta roleplay a Nazi to do it. The SS was a political organization. Every facet of it.
"Well, SOMEbody's gotta be the bad guy!" :rolleyes:
And on a different note elsewhere in the thread:
There's plenty of room to leave the SS out of the entire game. Having a tank represented in the vehicle list isn't justifiable cause to claim the game either requires or approves of players worshipping Nazi symbolism and rhetoric. It's rationalization ... and not even a good attempt at it.
"Well, they got a panzer tank in the game and there was an SS unit that used panzers! Duh!" :rolleyes:
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Did Funked just say that Indians were Nazi's?
F.
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Can't believe you guys let Sandman troll you like this.
He knows history,,,,,,,,
Shush... you'll spook 'em.
:D
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"the real point is whether HTC is going to do anything about it. i'll be watching with real interest."
As will I Shane.
J_A_B
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And to this pathetic threat let me add YAWN
Non issue
If this is what gets you excited....SS ????
Do you have any idea how many handles start with SS in the game? Is it the combination of the waffen? Whatever.
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Originally posted by ALF
And to this pathetic threat let me add YAWN
Non issue
If this is what gets you excited....SS ????
Do you have any idea how many handles start with SS in the game? Is it the combination of the waffen? Whatever.
people like you made good germans who stood by and let atrocities against an entire population occur, if not outright active participants in it.
as far as I know there's never been an American ship or submarine called the waffen.
yeah, tard it's that specific combination.
what size are you? the brownshirt tailors need to know.
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Originally posted by Shane
people like you made good germans who stood by and let atrocities against an entire population occur, if not outright active participants in it.
I am in favor of free speach, and opposed to censorship based on nothing but someones "opinion". There are many people out there who have handles starting with SS, but you take exception to this one because it also has the German word for "weapon" in it?
as far as I know there's never been an American ship or submarine called the waffen.
So if there had been its ok... does this make any sense?
yeah, tard it's that specific combination.
[/B]
May I please have your list of "approved" names to go with SS. Hmmm....now that sounds rather ironic doesnt it.
what size are you? the brownshirt tailors need to know.
[/B]
For someone who professes to be so offended by a word, I find that last statement to be quite telling, especially when you so carelessly throw around a word that embodies all you claim to find so offensive.
I would request you refraine from personal attacks (especially those as obscenely rude as the above) on the message board. It adds nothing to your argument, but detracts greatly from the community.
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Originally posted by Arlo
They were Waffen SS because of the roll of the die. Chances are it was a roll they lost. Do you really think the SS soldiers on the Eastern front wouldn't have traded places with the ones at Auswitz without giving it a second thought and considering themselves lucky to boot?
Ummm, either you are a blatant liar or you are posting on a topic you know nothing about, which makes you (in this case) an idiot.
No discussion is well served by the presence of those who have no knolwedge of the topic.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
Ummm, either you are a blatant liar or you are posting on a topic you know nothing about, which makes you (in this case) an idiot.
No discussion is well served by the presence of those who have no knolwedge of the topic.
Mike/wulfie
please feel free to enlighten us about the heroes of the Waffen SS. Be sure to include those fine fellows at Oradur-sur-Glane, Malmedy and Stavelot just to name a few.
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If something you see offends you, and wether or not that thing is there is beyond your control, dont look at it.
Why is the swastika, or German/Nazi orientated names any more offensive than the 'meatball' on Japanese planes? Or someone using the name of a Japanese ace? You cant tell me the Japs were a nice, humane, friendly bunch of blokes in WWII.
And what about the British roundel...hell, those blokes torched Dresden....and the star and bar of the US? They just nuked a couple of cities, nothin' unsociable about that.
The Russian star? yep, the Ruskies were incredibly decent to the people of the German territories they occupied.
My own countrymen regularly straffed survivers in liferafts after attacking Japanes shipping, no one is exactly 'innocent'.
Face it, by playing a world war two air combat simulation/game, we are in effect 'pretending' to involve ourselves in a situation where several million of Earth's young men did their damndest to kill one another, there aint a hell of a lot about ANY of it that ISNT offensive........but damn it's fun when it's securely locked away behind my monitor's glass. :)
To get righteously offended and all high and mighty about a name, due to it's connection to something that happened more than half a century ago, during a conflict that brought out the worste in all mankind, is, quite frankly, strange, if you ask me.
Blue
PS AKSwulfe......cool screenshot, you know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words.
Personally, I myself, would have run farther away from the burning 100 octane fuel before I did the "Thank the Lord and do a Russian crouchy, kicky, dancy thingamy" ;)
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Originally posted by wulfie
Ummm, either you are a blatant liar or you are posting on a topic you know nothing about, which makes you (in this case) an idiot.
No discussion is well served by the presence of those who have no knolwedge of the topic.
Mike/wulfie
Lies! Lies! All lies!
Here's some more for you to foam over:
"Hitler also decreed that as Party formations, the Waffen SS belonged neither to the Wehrmacht nor the police. Instead he defined them as a standing armed force of the SS, available for any special tasks of a political nature that he might determine. Hitler ordered that the Waffen SS be subject to all ideoligical and political criteria laid down by him for the party."
This was from a fuhrer decree of August 17, 1938 that allowed for the organization of armed SS units under the control of Himmler who was responsible for training them into a state of combat readiness.
Here's the specific oath members of the SS (all members) had to take in addition to (and superceding) any other oath:
"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."
-------------------------------
"Hey, Fritz, you lucky bastard! You're getting rotated to the rear for light duty. All you'll hafta do is stand guard over some Jews!"
At which point, Fritz, being the upstanding humanitarian he was, shot himself in the head.
-------------------------------
"Liar, liar, pants on fire!" :rolleyes:
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"The whole world's bad! The whole world's mad! Nazis one and all. So let's all give our blessing boys and have ourselves a ball!" :rolleyes:
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Shane, I've never had a problem with you in AH - either in the MA or on the BBS, so I am going to try and remain polite and 'educational'.
First off, I assume your comment about 'heroes' is implying that I am defending the reputation of the Waffen-SS with regards to 'war crimes', 'battlefield attrocities', etc. This is not the case.
Arlo's comment was plain stupid. The major units of the Waffen-SS were 'elite' combat units among other things. Selection was very rigorous, as was training. These facts alone show Arlo to either be deliberately lying or clueless with regards to the topic at hand. Waffen-SS units had very high 'espirit de corps'/'fighting morale'/etc. Such units are not composed of persons who 'would gladly be posted to the rear to man concentration camps if given the chance'. It is a known fact that Waffen-SS units maintained their cohesion and fighting spirit in situations where Allied units fell apart and surrendered or were destroyed. Hardly the actions of men who 'would jump at the chance to be placed in the rear guarding a concentration camp'.
Re: Malmedy;
Did you know that Peiper and all of his junior officers, senior NCOs, etc. were cleared of all charges relating to 'the Malmedy Massacre'?
I'd suggest you read the appendices of the book 'Hitler's Last Gamble' regarding this topic. There is an entire section dealing with 'the Malmedy Massacre', KG Peiper, etc.
To sum up - Peiper and his men were cleared, largely based on the testimony of U.S. Army Officers that stated:
1. Peiper could not have been present, as the U.S. Army Officers testifying were engaged with Peiper and his KG some 20 km further down the road at the time of the massacre.
2. The testifying U.S. Army Officers were later captured by Peiper. After Peiper was cut off, and under heavy artillery attack, he ordered all U.S. POWs into the best protected basements available, alongside the German wounded, and without guards. The U.S. Army Officers were asked to give their word of honor that the German wounded and medical personnel not be attacked, interfered with, etc. Hardly the act of a 'ruthless murderer'.
As for what happened at Malmedy, because U.S. Army personnel were shot, after surrendering - read the book (excellent book on the 2d Ardennes Offensive) and the appendices.
Re: Waffen-SS battlefield attrocities;
I'd say 90% or more were commited vs. partisans, resistance fighters, etc. This doesn't make it okay, but truth be told the Waffen-SS, like most other combat units, treated partisans and freedom fighters much different than surrendering uniformed soldiers. Remember that partisans and such had a habit of torturing and mutilating the soldiers they captured.
As for Waffen-SS battlefield attrocities vs. surrendering Russian soldiers - largely a myth. I'm sure it happened a few times, but every Nation's soldiers killed surrendering soldiers more than once. If the Waffen-SS were known as murderers as opposed to damn tough opponents, I highly doubt that the Ukraine would have approved a memorial, located in the Ukraine, to 200 members of the 5. SS Pz. Division who died fighting as the rearguard during the battles of the Cherkassy pocket. There's still lots of living Russian WW2 veterans in the Ukraine - they had no problem with the memorial. This memorial was approved about 4 years ago if memory serves.
The Canadians and the Waffen-SS both commited some execution of POWs in a battle over an airfield in Normandy, but even the Canadian veterans interviewed about this freely admitted that this was because the fighting was so intense and the objective was so crucial that there was simply no time to take prisoners.
After 1941, the vast majority of Waffen SS personnel never saw Germany itself until after the war. Refits were conducted in the 'Low Countries'. 1., 2., 5., 9., and 10. SS Pz. saw Germany via train - on the way to other fronts mainly. The one exception was Pz. crews picking up new AFVs in Germany, or being trained for new AFVs.
In 1941, some wounded Waffen-SS were assigned to concentration camps while they recovered from wounds. This practice was stopped by the end of 1941 because it had a severe effect on the morale of said soldiers.
Good soldiers do not make good executioners of innocent people. The two are not compatible. There are certain traits required of good soldiers - no matter how evil their leader - that cannot abide the execution of innocents.
I think one of the big problems is that too many people cannot get their brain around the fact that at the squad level, good soldiers, in 'elite' units, are basically the same regardless of Nationality. They are tough, they are challenge oriented, etc. They wouldn't volunteer for such a unit if they weren't.
How do I know so much about the Waffen-SS?
I was born in Germany and adopted by a member of the U.S. Army. Until the age of 4 or so, my 'baby sitters' were my biological German grandparents. One of my biological Grandfathers was a German Army Pz. crewman. Wounded in 1940 in France and sent home. During the massive rebuilding of Waffen-SS Pz. units in 1942 and 1943 he was 'assigned' to a Waffen-SS Pz. unit. He didn't go kicking and screaming. By 1943 'Waffen-SS' = 'elite unit with better AFVs and better weapons' to most members of the German armed forces.
The statement about all of the Waffen-SS being 'political' shows a lack of education on the subject as well.
The Waffen-SS was lacking in good officers. Many German Army officers joined the Waffen-SS for the sole reason that they lacked the 'heritage' (i.e., they weren't a 'von Somethingorother') to have a good chance of making a high rank in the German Army in the late early '30s and late '40s. The Waffen-SS was a chance to be judged on leading ability alone, as opposed to leading ability and 'noble heritage'. This was the sole reason the head of the Waffen-SS, Paul Hausser, left the German Army.
In short - to everyone reading this thread - read some books on the subject. Books dedicated to the subject. There are no small # of unbiased books available, that detail every attrocity as well as every battle. In 1945 leaders in the U.S. and British armies openly commented on the high degree of skill and bravery shown by the Waffen-SS, the German Army, etc. in the brutal winter fighting and the battles of maneuver vs. a Russian opponent with a vast numerical superiority. These were professional oppinions of professional opponents. Contrary to some very uneducated opinions in this thread, battlefield attrocities by the Waffen-SS were not the norm. Large #s of Allied soldiers lived to tell about surrendering to the Waffen-SS.
Large #s of Waffen-SS volunteers came from Scandanavia, following the German propoganda 'battle cry' of the 1940s - 'Protect Civilized Europe from the Communist Asiatic Hordes'. Those Scandanavians didn't volunteer for a chance to execute women and children. I find it funny that people who attempt to understand the motivations of the enemy never bother to study what the political climate of the enemy's homeland was.
For a good look at the Eastern front from the 'man on the ground' level, I'd suggest 'The Forgotten Soldier'.
As far as the SS and the Waffen-SS goes, 'Hitler's Instrument of Terror' is a fairly thorough and unbiased book. It outlines the organization of the SS in great detail. I highly recommend it. It also goes into great detail about the personnel changes in the various departments of the SS as the war progressed. For example, the SD was largely composed of former Abwehr personnel after 1943, as most experienced German intelligence officers had strong suspicions that Canaris was betraying Germany by 1943. So they 'laterally transferred' to the SD.
People need to come to terms with the fact that the main difference between Dick Bong and Erich Hartmann, and Rommel and Patton, is basically where they were born.
If Chuck Yeager were born in Germany he would have died flying a Bf 109 over NWE in 1944 most likely.
You won't find me in an AH 'SS Pz. Unit' just like you won't find me in an AH 'JG'. Just personal preference for me. I'm in the military and AH is a game. Enough said. But I have no problem with (most)people who choose to be in 'historical units'. If some kid is in a 'Guards Armored Regiment' driving in T-34/85s it's not my mission in life to tell him that the Soviet military was the armed forces of Stalin, who killed alot of innocent Russians. Stupid argument, right? Your average Russian T-34 gunner was fighting to save Russia from the Nazis.
Well, a kid who lives in Germany would say your average Waffen-SS PzGr was fighting to save Germany from the Russians. Both points have some merit. Sure, Germany did attack Russia. Germany was one of the 'bad guys' of WW2. Most of the Germans and Japanese who died fighting the Allies in WW2 had no say in if the war started, or who was attacked. It's hard to comprehend for some (and this doesn't make them inferior in any way whatsoever in my book), but good people have fought bravely for stupid and/or evil causes for almost the entire history of the human race. That the cause is stupid and/or evil does not make the 'schmuck on the ground' evil or invalidate his bravery. It is tragic though - that most of the people who get killed in wartime are often the least deserving of their fate.
If you reply to me, please keep it civil. Don't call me a 'nazi' (Another stupid accusation often seen - it's the equivalent of calling someone in the U.S. in the '40s and '50s a 'Union Worker', and considering them to be evil because Jimmy Hoffa won a Presidential Election and turned out to be a genocidal maniac). I've seen mass graves in real life. I've read interrogation transcripts that are roughly 10 years old at most. I know the difference between soldiers and executioners.
Mike/wulfie
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Arlo,
Regarding the Oath you just quoted: You do realize that that Oath was required of all members of the German armed forces after the start of WW2?
You also realize that any member of the Waffen SS who joined the Waffen SS after 1941 or so was not subjected to the same political indoctrination, standards (Aryan nonsense, etc.) as those who joined before the war?
I'm not arguing that attrocities were commited, or that the organization 'served an evil master'. But don't you think you are making some pretty unfounded generalizations?
I mean, if you are right - why weren't all members of the Waffen-SS tried and executed after the war?
Mike/wulfie
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"To get righteously offended and all high and mighty about a name, due to it's connection to something that happened more than half a century ago, during a conflict that brought out the worste in all mankind, is, quite frankly, strange, if you ask me."
Strange to be offended after all this time? You think it unreasonable to be offended by the works of Adolf Hitler just because 60 years have passed? I find it more strange that one would describe this as merely being offended. More appropriately it should be hate, nausia, loath or incence. To see some claim that Hitler and the Nazis are portrayed in a negative light because the winners got to write history is disgusting.
I also take issue with your premise that WW2 brought out the worste (sic) in all mankind. When I consider what the Brits went through to sustain themselves against the Nazis, what the French underground did to thwart the german occupation forces, and what our greatest generation did to preserve freedom was more accurately the best in all mankind.
The Waffen were selected, trained and indoctrinated for assignments the regular forces could not be expected, nor trusted to do. They systematically slaughtered innocent non-combatants, not as a reaction to the horrors of war, but as a matter of policy and official orders... atrocities that most rank and file german soldiers could hardly be forced to do.
Regardless of who wrote history, the evils of Hitler and the Nazis is a reality no less horrendous now than it was then. There may be a fuzzy line between what is acceptable to recreate from the Nazis during the war, but symbolism reflecting the inner core operations of the Nazi party are certainly way beyond the fuzz.
And, lest you little Nazi appologtists and Hitler wannabes think you are on idealistic firm ground, you better be of pure blooded aryan ancestry, else your idol, der Furor, would as soon see you in a death camp, death march or doing slave labor for the betterment of the master race.
Wiggle around all you wish, there are limits to what decent mankind can be expected to tolerate, and this is the only reason jerks like SSWaffen, Pnus, and ffokcuf chose those names. I think their deepest desires should be fulfilled and their AH accounts be summarily terminated.
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to quote a critic with credentials worthy of this thread (http://blueg3.homeip.net:81/~sampo/maroon.wav)
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Grizzly,
You are confusing Waffen-SS Divisions (as in entire Divisions, assigned to the Wehrmacht high command for use in standard combat operations) with 'special extermination units' (the German name escapes me at this time).
These 'special' units were comprised of SS personnel, members of the German police, etc. They followed the armed forces and rounded up all 'undesirables' (educated persons, people with incorrect 'lineage', etc.) and either murdered them or arranged for their transport to concentration camps.
Calm down a little dude. No one is defending Hitler or the murder of anyone. Sure, there were certainly some 'die hard Aryan/SS/Nazi fanatics' in the Waffen-SS. But most of these persons joined the SS before WW2, as members joining a political organization. The fact is that the Waffen-SS grew by a factor of 500 or more between 1938 and 1942. The majority of the guys in the Waffen-SS divisions were entirely different from Himmler and the other bastards in terms of motivations, etc.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
Shane, I've never had a problem with you in AH - either in the MA or on the BBS, so I am going to try and remain polite and 'educational'.
First off, I assume your comment about 'heroes' is implying that I am defending the reputation of the Waffen-SS with regards to 'war crimes', 'battlefield attrocities', etc. This is not the case.
[snip]
Mike/wulfie
Now this is the most intelligent post in this entire thread. Thanx Wulfie.
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Originally posted by wulfie
Arlo,
Regarding the Oath you just quoted: You do realize that that Oath was required of all members of the German armed forces after the start of WW2?
You also realize that any member of the Waffen SS who joined the Waffen SS after 1941 or so was not subjected to the same political indoctrination, standards (Aryan nonsense, etc.) as those who joined before the war?
I'm not arguing that attrocities were commited, or that the organization 'served an evil master'. But don't you think you are making some pretty unfounded generalizations?
I mean, if you are right - why weren't all members of the Waffen-SS tried and executed after the war?
Mike/wulfie
Well .... if this is a witch hunt then ....
I guess that leaves the question of whether SSwaffen is a good witch or a bad witch. Of course waffen could claim one and be the other if it's a smart witch.
Neh ... burn `er! Burn the witch!
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So I guess you guys would be fine with it if the local Wal-Mart had a Nazi flag flying outside? You'd go in and shop and see nothing wrong with it at all?
I think not.
HTC is facing exactly the same situation, a stupid jerkwad proudly displaying the name of what was, in creation, the Nazi special forces. (NOT just the German army, it was NOT under the same final command although they frequently fought on the same battlefields).
"You also realize that any member of the Waffen SS who joined the Waffen SS after 1941 or so was not subjected to the same political indoctrination, standards (Aryan nonsense, etc.) as those who joined before the war? "
And this somehow changes what it was created for, what it STOOD for? That's like saying a Nazi flag is meaningless today because there is no more Nazi Germany.
Sorry, I don't buy it. The swastika, the SS (including the Waffen SS), their "eagle" symbol, the Nazi salute, they're all hate symbools which don't belong in a computer game. It's a shame that the guy flying that hateful name in AH can hide behind the Internet without fear or real-life repercussions.
Get rid of it HTC. You've done it before for lesser issues, do it now.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
So I guess you guys would be fine with it if the local Wal-Mart had a Nazi flag flying outside? You'd go in and shop and see nothing wrong with it at all?
J_A_B
Next, you'll be telling us that Wal-Mart is a good thing. :rolleyes:
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You're a German soldier on the Russian front 1945 about to surrender. You can choose between a regular German army uniform and an SS uniform. What do you pick and why?
If I was about to surrender on RUSSIAN front, I'd choose to put a bullet in my brain instead of getting tortured by them. No matter what uniform at that stage.
Getting sent to the gulags was a faith far worse than death.
And what goes with Waffen SS, it was just another military unit. It was a kind of elite unit within german army and it consisted of not only germans but other nationalities, too.
Waffen SS had nothing to do with the political SS which did intelligence and generally cloak&dagger stuff. They were responsible of torturing people etc. stuff.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Next, you'll be telling us that Wal-Mart is a good thing. :rolleyes:
I'm sure you prefer K-mart. Definately K-mart. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Arlo
I'm sure you prefer K-mart. Definately K-mart. :rolleyes:
Where the "K" stands for kwaulity. :D
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LOL! Truly excellent, Sandy! I liked that. Sheesh ... way past time for bed. Night all and here's to a better tommorrow.
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J_A_B,
If you are offended by the 'Waffen-SS' title because of what it stood for...
The LW, the Germany Army, the Waffen-SS, the Kriegsmarine - they were all fighting for the same leader, and for the same cause.
I think the argument here is that Waffen-SS formations were combat formations, in general fighting enemy armed forces. By Waffen-SS I mean Waffen-SS divisions. You can't find a WW2 war game that doesn't have them in the OOB. You can't simulate WW2 ground combat without their presence, as they were almost always 'in the thick of the fighting'.
The concentration camps were run by a department of the SS which was entirely separate from the Waffen-SS. Almost no crossover of personnel.
Think of it from an effectiveness standpoint: using highly trained and physically fit soldiers to run a concentration camp would have been a total misallocation of resources. By 1942, the Waffen-SS made up for roughly 30-40% of the total German armored and mechanized forces on the Eastern front, and these Waffen-SS formations were under the control of the German Army (with regards to where they were fighting, etc.). There is no way a German Field Marshal would waste armored and mechanized formations by having them conduct 'ethnic cleansing'. This is why the Russians didn't execute every single Waffen-SS soldier they captured (they did kill, or allow the former prisoners to kill, every German they caught in and around the concentration camps they liberated).
The Russians knew that the Waffen-SS in general weren't associated with the camps - they knew the location of the Waffen-SS units from 1941 onward for almost every month of the war, because those units were locked in combat with the Russians almost constantly.
I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be offended by some glorification of Hitler and/or Hitler's Germany and what it stood for.
But in some part this is a simulation of WW2 - and the Waffen-SS were present at almost every major possible turning point in Europe and on the Eastern Front during WW2.
I think that everyone who's commented would agree with the reason for your being offended, but what I'm trying to say is that you need to look at it in the context of a historical simulation. A Waffen-SS Pz IVH in a WW2 simulation isn't the same as some dumb fat white supremacist with a swastika teeshirt chanting 'burn the Jews' in the eyes of almost everyone playing AH.
Mike/wulfie
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"You can't simulate WW2 ground combat without their presence, as they were almost always 'in the thick of the fighting'. "
In case you haven't noticed, AH is simulating a war between the Bishops and Knights and Rooks. Plus it simulates the air portion just fine without any Swastikas or other in-game hate symbols AFAIK, until crap like this pops up.
I wish you'd stop for a moment and think about what you're saying. "The Waffen SS wasn't anything bad, they were just their elite special forces". Remember that the Waffen SS wasn't under the same final command as the rest of their army, and until the manpower situation dictated otherwise, it was volunteer only. Remember that it was, quite literally, created as the Nazi special forces.
It is a hate symbol. Period. The fact that they were involved in a lot of battles doesn't change that basic fact.
Most people can live with "luftwaffe". Heck, there's a Luftwaffe today. Different situation completely. The LW wasn't created for the "true believers". End of story.
J_A_B
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J_A_B,
For the entirety of WW2, the Waffen-SS Regiments (which later became Divisions) were under the command of the German Army. The German Army was under the supreme command of Adolf Hitler.
Waffen-SS Divisions deployed to areas/theatres on the orders of the Theatre commanders, which in every single case were German Army (Wehrmacht) Officers.
Saying that the Waffen-SS was under the direct command of Hitler and that the LW, the Wehrmacht, etc. were not is incorrect. This is partly the reason that you won't find me in a 'LW squadron' in any game. Like I said above - some brave and definitely non-evil individual, but the armed forces were fighting for an evil leader.
You are right about 'rooks/bishops/etc.', but AH has historical events, with historical units simulated in said events. And there are people who are drawn to AH as a 'WW2 combat simulation'.
Like I said before - I can understand why you are offended. But I see a distinct difference between a 'special execution group' composed partly of members of the SS (not the Waffen-SS) and a Waffen-SS division, under the command of the OKH, fighting as regular military unit on the Eastern or Western front.
There is a LW in Germany today, that's true. And everyone is aware of how seriously Germany takes it's Nazi past.
So when you are able to go to a military cemetary in Germany, and members of the Waffen-SS who were KIA have their Waffen-SS unit ID on their headstones even today - what does that tell you about the difference between the Waffen-SS Divisions, and the adminitrative offices of the SS that were responsible for the concentration camps.
I really think you guys are a little confused re: the differences between different parts of the SS. Have you read many dedicated books on the subject? (honest question: I know d*ck about IJA air units for example)
Mike/wulfie
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Here maybe this will clarify some things:
If you were a member of the Waffen-SS, you were a combat soldier and were part of a Waffen-SS unit, which was a Regiment until the invasion of Russia by which time most of the Regiments had become Divisions.
Some examples of the more 'famous' Divisions:
1. SS - Leibstandarte
2. SS - Das Reich
3. SS - Totenkopk
5. SS - Wiking
'Leibstandarte' was origionally a bodyguard company for Adolf Hitler in the late '30s. At this time, it was about 100 men strong. Most of these 100 were people who joined the SS political organization. They were placed in the 'Leibstandarte' because they were former military personnel with combat experience (from WW1) - the type of people you'd want for bodyguards. I'm not saying these guys weren't 'dyed in the wool SS fanatics' by the way.
By the time 'Leibstandarte' was a Regiment, i.e. after WW2 started, the vast majority of the Regiment were soldiers who would have been sent to a Wehrmacht unit but the Waffen-SS had 'first pick' on recruits because of the political power of the SS.
Understand this - men called up to serve in the armed forces of Germany after the invasion of Poland could easily wind up in Waffen-SS combat training for posting to a Waffen-SS combat unit.
You, J_A_B, if you were 20 years old, 6'2", 215 lbs. of solid muscle, and a crack shot - if you were called up by Germany in 1940 there's a decent chance you'd be told you'd been selected for Waffen-SS training and posting to a Waffen-SS unit.
Now, at the time, the 'Waffen-SS' and the 'Fallschirmjager' (paratroops) and and Panzer unit were the equivalent of today's 'U.S. Army Rangers' when you are talking about their image in the eyes of 20 year old men. Any 'newsreel from the front' spoke of one of these 'special units'.
In other words, some 20 year old guy in 1940 wasn't going to say 'no, I don't want to join the Waffen-SS' very often. That's the type of psychology we are talking about here.
These Waffen-SS combat units were assigned to various Wehmacht front/theatre commands for the entirety of WW2. At no time was a Waffen-SS Division 'ordered to Germany to man concentration camps'.
I think this is where the argument in this thread comes from - one group is being specific and the other isn't. Neither group is wrong in my opinion. In my mind, studying WW2 history a great deal, there is no word association between '5. SS Pz. Div. Wiking' and 'Dachau'.
But the Waffen-SS were a part of the SS, and it was a department of the SS that managed the obscene 'business' which they considered concentration camps to be. So I can fully understand why people would be offended.
I think what matters the most is the mind set of 'SSWaffen'. Sure, he could be some white supremacist living in a compound somewhere.
He could also be some 9 year old kid who bought a Tamiya Pz VG kit with decals for a Waffen-SS Division.
Has anyone actually talked to him online?
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by wulfie
He could also be some 9 year old kid who bought a Tamiya Pz VG kit with decals for a Waffen-SS Division.
Has anyone actually talked to him online?
Mike/wulfie
yeah i did...
"just a game, just a name."
that's like saying, hitler "was just a german, just a duly elected leader."
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Wulfie--I am well aware of the distinction between the various SS units. I am also aware of the difference between the average soldier of the German army and the guys in the Waffen SS, which you apparently are not.
You made a comparison between Army Rangers and the Waffen SS. Okay. Would you say that the average Ranger is more likely to be a proud American, a patriot, a believer in the American government and a willing soldier of the USA than some typical unwilling draftee? Obviously the answer is a big YES. Being a Ranger is a mark of pride, for those who love their country and go above and beyond the call of duty; they're our best soldiers and literally a represenation of the USA.
Same with the Waffen SS. Now remember what government they had and what these guys were so zealously fighting for and maybe you'll start to see my point. These guys weren't just innocent soldiers by any means. At least not until the manpower situation over there dictated that they filled the ranks with whatever bodies they could find, but that doesn't change the underlying symbolicism of that unit.
"I think what matters the most is the mind set of 'SSWaffen'. "
So if he's flying his little virtual Nazi flag just because "well it looks cool", that makes it all right?
Nope.
I haven't talked to him. I'm not going to talk to him. His motives are a total non-issue.
J_A_B
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Well,
Since someone has talked to him - and he apparently is of the mind that 'just a name, no big deal', I can see why some would be irritated.
J_A_B,
I never said anything would make it alright.
I don't want to argue with you. I am perfectly aware of the fact that some people are going to take things differently than others. All I was trying to do was to explain/show that just because some people aren't offended to the same degree by something that you are, it doesn't mean that they don't agree on other key points.
I am more aware of 'the average soldier of the German army' than you think - probably more aware than you are. I've interviewed several of them, and spoken to many more on a casual basis - having spent alot of time in Germany. Regular German army units commited attrocities as well. The commiting of attrocities did not require some special insignia on a uniform. Your attitude strikes me as a little naive - 'all SS evil, all non SS honorable'. It's not that simple in real life.
Also, I didn't compare the Waffen-SS and the U.S. Army Rangers. I compared the psychology behind the recruitment. There is a difference. My point was this (in this case) - you implied that every member of the Waffen-SS was a 'political creature', who somehow wound up in the Waffen-SS because of a total belief in Aryan superiority or some like nonsense. I know you are wrong.
You're also wrong (and again, a little naive I think) about U.S. Army Ranger 'recruitment/pre-ranger school' psychology. I know lots of Rangers. I've trained with some of them at various times. Alot of guys volunteer for Ranger school because they need to prove something to themselves, or 'Rangers get to do cool stuff like jump and it's easier to get into some of the cooler schools', etc. The norm is not someone who thinks to himself, at the age of 19, "I love my Nation so much that I will volunteer for Ranger school". In WW2 and in modern times guys in crack units fight on in difficult situations because of the tightness of the unit (i.e. they couldn't think of bailing on their buddies), not based on some political fanaticism. Japan in WW2 may have gotten close to that with Bushido, but that's another topic entirely.
I can't remember who said it, but the quote basically goes "When things get really bad you don't fight for freedom, or your country, or what's right or wrong - you fight for the guys to the left and the right of you".
Sometimes it's a young infantry guy who sees a really tight group of guys that exude confidence, and being young and impressed by that confidence he decides to try and be a part of that group.
I have talked to veterans of the Waffen-SS who said they tried to make the ranks of the Waffen-SS 'because my best friend from school made it'. That's not every case, but what you imply is an example of the minority of the cases. The eqiuvalent of what you are saying in modern times would be the Republican Party endorsing the U.S. Rangers, and because there was a Republican President in power everyone who had dreams of being a Republican senator decided to volunteer for Ranger school.
Even in WW2, political creatures didn't fare well in front line combat units. They don't today as well.
As for 'him flying his little virtual Nazi flag making it all right', I never implied that. What I was trying to tell you that your treatment of him should be based on what he's thinking.
For example - if he is a 9 year old, with zero knolwedge of WW2 due to the state of public education in the U.S.A. today, if he did get a chance to speak with you his thoughts following speaking to you would probably be 'man, that guy's an as*hole' (not trying to flame you there - just a figure of speech). You could actually accomplish something with him by speaking with him, giving him a couple of books to read, etc.
All hypothetical though, according to what Shane has discovered about his attitude on the topic.
If you really care about the legacy of the holocaust, ethnic cleansing, etc. (it appears you do, which is a good thing) you need to rethink how you deal with people.
The problem with your approach is this - say the guy with the offensive handle was a 9 year old with no clue of the actual history.
If he speaks to someone who says 'You cannot have that handle the Waffen SS were evil they were all fanatics of Hitler and commited attrocities left and right' and he then speaks to someone who is an apologist, revisionist, etc. you have set the revisionists up for an easy victory. Compared to the tone of your reply, a smart revisionist is going to be composed, articulate, and give the kid a reading list of intelligent sounding but biased reading material.
Better to tailor the explanation and any chastising to the person in question. A 9 year old with no formal education needs to be educated. A fat bigot wearing a swastika teeshirt needs to be told off (or worse).
I'll end it this way - I understand why you are offended, and I am offended by the same things you are in this case. But in my case, I consider the 'poster boys of facist Germany's evil acts' to be certain leaders who knew the big picture and actually believed in the goal/end result and worked at making that end result a reality.
No hard feelings here...
Mike/wulfie
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J_A_B man, you sound like you're extremely upset about this guy's choice of game ID, which he must have known, would cause some controversy...provided he is an old AH vet and did it on purpose.
This fellow is a newbie, I'm pretty sure. He played Rook the other night and seemed like a nice guy. Even has a sense of humor, from what I saw on the text buffer.
Now, I am willing to give this player the benefit of the doubt as to his choice of ID...probably more along the line Sandman was explaining. All I can say is, if this player is emulating German infantry soldiers, he must be a good player.
If he starts up with Nazi propaganda on channel 1, then that would be the time to make a post like this.
Les
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I'll say it again here:
It is totally irrelevant if u are OK with the name "WaffenSS".
Many europeans are not and if HTC wants to attract more euros and the first thing they see is a moronic icon name like "WaffenSS" the impression of this game is questionable not to say i would ask me if there are a bunch of Nazis flying in this game.
To explain this a little bit more:
For the germans (and other too) SS, Gestapo and SA stand for the most obnoxious kind of nazism. They are the most evil spawn of the morbid thoughts of Adolf Hitler.
And to those making jokes about people getting offended by Mr. WaffenSS: come to euroland and russia and talk to older people. They will explain u why they begin to cry even when they only see the insignia of the SS.
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I have learned a lot about the SS in this thread. I didn't even know of them before now :rolleyes:
Anyway, if it is as bad as it seems I think the name should be gone just because we can type deal. :D
Kinda like the name potforkids that I seen about a month ago. Seen it a few times then never again. I think HT got wind of that stupid moronic name.
But really, this thread has got me interested in learning more about the European parts of WWII. All I ever was interested in before was the Pacific Theater.
Booky
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Let's remove EVERYTHING german in the game to please J_A_B - afterall its all nazi warcraft and you surely do hate everything nazi ENOUGH TO CENSOR it.
By all means, let's just close our eyes from the history and nothing bad ever happens or happened. Happy new world.
Censorship is the key to a better society and a brighter future for your kids.
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Originally posted by Hussein
Censorship is the key to a better society and a brighter future for your kids.
i thought gassing the kurds was?
:confused:
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And to those making jokes about people getting offended by Mr. WaffenSS: come to euroland and russia and talk to older people. They will explain u why they begin to cry even when they only see the insignia of the SS.
And maybe some japanese begin to cry when they see a picture of or hear the name B29 or atomic bomb.
The japanese were very ruthless also, one commander used to eat the livers of prisoners(no lie). And does the bataan death march ring a bell? Do we ban any japanese squad names?
Do we ban WWII sims because some find it disgusting that you would want to recreate WWII?
Every country during the war commited atrocities. If certain events during WWII really offend you, then you really shouldn't be playing a WWII sim.
I mean, I'm half italian and there is a person named Dago, but I'm not going to demand his name be changed.
However, there was a "Mrdiddlyo" online the other night.My complaint is when I tried to type to him, I got muted...DOH!!
Now HTC can ban the name "SSwaffen" if they wish, but, where he seemed like a decent person, I'm sure if they ask him in a nice way, he would probably do it anyway.
Which probably should have been done instead of a demanding post in the first place.
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I personally would prefer to have all historical names and markings allowed in this game, including WaffenSS.
However, if a name or a marking deeply offended or hurt my friend, I would remove or change it out of respect for their feelings. It is that simple.
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Thank you for the educating posts, Wulfie!
I seem to notice the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality in this thread. I hope people would take a minute and study the topic before making wrong assumptions. With the internet, there is a wealth of information out there. It is not hard to find basic info on almost any topic in a matter of seconds. If you are really interested or just don't trust the information you find, head to your nearest library and read some books. Study history: without prejudism, without bigotry, with an open mind. If you find something offensive, study the topic and take a look in the mirror: "maybe I am just prejudiced?"
This is not specifically directed at the Waffen SS discussion. Unfortunately, threads like this usually seem to involve Germans in one way or the other. Victims of "western history writing"?
Best regards,
Camo
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Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
Unfortunately, threads like this usually seem to involve Germans in one way or the other. Victims of "western history writing"?
Best regards,
Camo
Oh dear lord, now I've heard it all.
I assume by this, Camo, that you mean if Germany won WWII, we would be reading about how the U.S. Executed millions of Jews, and other Non-desirables?
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I agree that “waffenSS” should not be allowed in the game. This guy just doesn’t understand the implications of that name…
My only concern-does HTC have a clearly defined rule for “inappropriate/offensive” names? Hopefully AH will have an influx of new players-but that means issues of “Appropriate Handles” will come up again in the future.
Following is just meant as a joking example of what could happen without a clear policy:
I personally find the “handle” of HUNHuntr to be offensive to me- and someone coming out of rehab may have issues with a 420FATTY. :D
There are numerous handles that can be interpreted many ways and without a clear policy it could become messy.
Just saying…
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Duedel, a few questions for you... (just curious)
1. How old are you?
2. What part of Germany did you grow up in?
Mike/wulfie
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Oedipus,
I don't think anyone is irrational to find it offensive (the SS in the handle). My thinking is this though...say you've got 100 'hatred points' to direct against the perpetrators of 'the final solution'.
It seems alot of people divide up their points like this (Not saying you do by the way):
Hitler and other major leaders: 50 points.
Everyone who wore an SS uniform: 50 points.
If the points were divided evenly, in a perfect world with total knolwedge, the breakdown for me would be 'a fraction of a point assigned to everyone who knew they were doing something against the basic principles of humanity and did so willingly'.
My problem with blanket accusations/assignments/labels in this case is this - 'The SS were the final solution' is way too simple an explanation - a simple explanation that lets lots of people deserving of condemnation 'off the hook'. There were plenty of 'regular Germans' who never wore a SS uniform that commited far worse acts 'against humanity' than some who did wear a SS uniform.
Take the Gestapo - there were members of the Gestapo who were police investigators before WW2. After the beginning of WW2, when Himmler was given the power to consolidate all police and security forces under his control, alot of 'vanilla detectives' who were working in a counterespionage role were now, all of a sudden, 'members of the Gestapo'.
I want specifics. The above mentioned detective isn't evil in my book. Attempting to thwart enemy spies operating in your homeland is what counterintelligence officers do in time of war. The 'Gestapo' was an evil organization by virtue of the motives and deeds of it's senior leadership. But like the Waffen-SS, it was not an 'all volunteer' organization. The detective mentioned above isn't evil to me. An interrogator torturing captured enemy intelligence officers isn't evil to me - the U.K., U.S.A., U.S.S.R. - all tortured captured enemy intelligence officers during WW2. That's how it works during war time, and every intelligence officer ever trained knows it. It's the officers of the Gestapo that spent their daily lives 'rooting out hidden jews' and 'detaining enemies of the state who dared speak against Hitler' that I consider to be evil.
To make such a general accusation - 'All agents of the Gestapo were evil' is to use the same reasoning and rhetoric that facist and communist leaders have used worldwide...'All jews are repsonsible for the downfall of European stability'...'All educated persons are a threat to the party'...etc., etc., etc.
If they commited evil acts, or if they supported people commiting evil acts and knew they were doing so, hang 'em high. But take the time to root out the truly guilty - every single one of them if possible.
In my opinion, the topic is too important to not be discussed in as much detail as possible.
Also, has anyone reading/writing to this thread ever heard of the 'de nazification process'? At the end of the war, nearly every member of the armed forces (Waffen-SS included) and everyone who held any 'official position' within 'the 3d reich' (school teachers included) was interviewed, classified, and often put before a tribunal consisting of Allied investigators. Numerous members (the majority, to be honest) of the Waffen-SS, the Gestapo (mainly 'shanghaied' cases like the detective mentioned above), etc. were cleared by investigators when the 'evidence' was fresh and witnesses were easily found. Statements like the ones that have been made in this thread tend to seem silly to me because of this - who has a better grasp of the reality of the situation? Someone who's read a few books 50 years after the fact or Allied investigators, in occupied Germany, with ample 'fresh' data and access to records, witnesses, etc.
Here's an interesting read - an interview with a German armed forces member...he talks about before the war, during, and after. Pay close attention to his recollection of what the attitudes of the Germans of military service age were. Note the lack of 'political zeal', and the attitudes that don't differ much from what you or I had at the age of 20 or so, regardless of what Nation we were citizens of. Also notice the fact that he was in a German regular Army unit (a unit of the Wehrmacht) that maintained a bodyguard detachment for Hitler.
'But that can't be! He wasn't in the SS!'
http://www.feldgrau.com/interview6.html
Mike/wulfie
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Muckmaw you got it only half right..
I assume by this, Camo, that you mean if Germany won WWII, we would be reading about how the U.S. Executed millions of Jews, and other Non-desirables?
If the war flipped the other way, the history would be written in this way:
The unpure non-arian scum who tried to stop our great leader of purging the country of jews and other non-humane material were destroyed by the superior race despite the war crimes and hundreds of thousands of civillians they murdered during the airraids against the civillian targets.
The children would be raised to think of jews as the lesser race and anyone with nazi education would be proud to be the first one to push the trigger on any caught. As this would be the official truth, nobody would think there's anything weird about it. Just as people in Vietnam think it's normal to eat dogs while we find it repulsive. Matter of upbringing.
If Iraq would have won the consortium during the gulf war, we'd be studying and teaching our kids the Koran and demanding for our women to hide their faces.. etc.
Naturally there would be a bunch of people who would disagree with the common views. In a nazi / Saddam society those would be forced to stay underground or terminated..
Just as today, the people who disagree with American foreign policies or even internal, are being watched by the intelligence agencies and thier opinnions will cause problems in getting a visa to the country etc. Thank God the current administration isn't one that systematically murders any opposition.
However that could be the case and still IS in many countries on this planet.
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Hmmm, now to hijack a thread... :)
I don't think the KGB belongs with the others on that list. It's an intelligence service of a sovereign State, as opposed to a terrorist organization. Elements of the KGB have certainly done heinous things (to be expected when it's the intelligence service of a totalitarian regime), but at the height of the cold war KGB agents were not targeting civilians in West Germany with terrorist bomb attacks.
You are right about earned nasty reputations. But if the people who defeated Germany, and had to fight the Waffen-SS to do so, can differentiate between the SS department responsible for the final solution in detail and the armed formations of the Waffen-SS...why can't we?
You live in the U.K. Members of the U.K.s military forces, who had fought vs. the Waffen-SS, spoke on behalf of Waffen-SS personnel before 'de nazification tribunals' immediately after WW2. The were attrocities commited vs. the armed forces of the U.K. by a unit of the Waffen-SS - twice, during the battle of France (1940). Members of the U.K. military made sure that those responsible for those incidents were tried for war crimes. They also understood that this did not mean that the Waffen-SS soldiers they fought in Normandy 4 years later were 'by default' mindless butchers. They considered them to be tough, dangerous opponents.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by Duedel
To explain this a little bit more:
For the germans (and other too) SS, Gestapo and SA stand for the most obnoxious kind of nazism. They are the most evil spawn of the morbid thoughts of Adolf Hitler.
And to those making jokes about people getting offended by Mr. WaffenSS: come to euroland and russia and talk to older people. They will explain u why they begin to cry even when they only see the insignia of the SS.
What Duedel said.
SS Units during the war ( Waffen ) were known for their total disregard for human life, be it prisoners or civilians. They were the bearers of death to all in it's path.
Soviet units ( no geneva convention in eastern front ) had a standard of shooting anyone with SS tatoo ( they tattoed themselves on the arm ) on the spot.
For them there wasn't much distinction between different parts of SS organization. Frankly I don't blame them.
Let me give you a current world comparison:
Hamas, reknown terrorist organization also does lot of "community work". They teach children and do other "nice" things in community.
Anyone wants to sign up for a membership ?
SSWaffen name is in bad taste. I'd be suprized if HTC would let it stand. It will assure some customers leaving due to immaturity level.
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Wolfie,
I'm sure you have, but have you read a book by Guy Sajer titled Forgotten Soldier? The one about the French kid who's mother was German and got conscripted and sent to the Eastern front? That was one incredible book. Very enlightening for me as I had only rudimentery knowledge of what happend on the Eastern front.
What I find disturbing is that each time I read it(3) I get the feeling of disbelief. Its hard to comprehend someone surviving all that.
What did you think about it?
Maybe I should've posted this in OT...sorry
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Originally posted by Lizard3
What I find disturbing is that each time I read it(3) I get the feeling of disbelief. Its hard to comprehend someone surviving all that.
You aren't alone. More than one scholar has looked into it and concluded that the Guy Sajer character in the book is fiction. Either pure fiction, or a fictionalized medley of stories from more than one soldier's career.
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Every single German SS Division committed atrocities.
I don't think HTC will risk the reputation of their game by allowing that handle.
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Fd-Ski,
There is no 'track record' of the Waffen-SS killing Allied prisoners on the Western front. There were a few (less than 5 for the entire war, if memory serves) incidents on the Western front. The people guilty for those incidents were identified by surviving British military personnel after the war and tried for their crimes.
The Russians did not shoot every prisoner 'with an SS tatoo'. There are numerous veterans of the Waffen-SS who returned from Russian captivity, which proves this statement to be incorrect. Some were no doubt shot, many died in gulags after WW2. But most of the 'shoot on the spot' treatment on the Eastern front was reserved for partisans and such. For the most part, barring the Japanese, front line soldiers tended to take the surrender of other front line soldiers - East front or West. Most of the Russian POWs who perished died from starvation and disease once they were sent to POW camps back in Germany and the occupied territories.
At least according to persons I have talked to and interviewed.
Also, I've interviewed a couple of Russian AFV crewmen from WW2. They appeared to have no specific problem with the Waffen-SS, outside of knowing there was going to be some tough fighting if they were in the area.
Again - there is a memorial site dedicated to 200 Waffen-SS soldiers located in the Ukraine. If the Russians can differentiate between members of a group responsible for attrocites (special extermination squads) and combat troops with the same lapel insignia but part of an entirely different division of the same organization...
Once again - I can understand why some would be offended by the handle. But being offended by the handle does not make the statements 'All members of the Waffen-SS were war criminals' and 'There is no distinction between the (General)SS and the Waffen-SS' any less false.
Everyone - here's part of a transcript from the Nuremburg trials in 1946...pretty interesting stuff:
"I leave out the next few sentences.
With flagging hope Dr. Morgen made his report for the third time, with which, as before, he wanted to help find the guilty, protect the innocent, and to show the German people and the world the final guilt of the criminal leadership for the most horrible murders in world history. In this he succeeded.
I leave out the next paragraph in which I describe the beginning of the concentration camp system and the participation of the SS.
But soon the establishment and guarding of concentration camps were legalized. From 1933, 1934, on, they were financed from the budget of the individual German States leader. As head of the Political Police of all Lander, except Prussia, Himmler, in 1934, uniformly regulated the guard and administrative conditions. By taking over a part of the previous guard personnel, SA and SS men, he created the Death's Head formations and supplemented them with volunteers from all sections of the population without consideration of membership in the Party and the SS. They were then intended exclusively for guarding concentration camps and comprised, in the year 1936, 400 men from the Kommandantur and 3,600 men for guard duties. They guarded about 10,000 to 12,000 prisoners in five concentration camps all over Germany. I ask you to compare the then unusually large membership of the General SS with these figures.
In 1936 the concentration camps and their guard personnel were taken over into the Reich budget and separated according to Kommandantur and guard personnel. At the beginning of the war the Kommandantur personnel consisted of 600 men; the guard personnel amounted to about 7,400 men. There were only six concentration camps in all Germany, containing 21,300 prisoners, and as yet no work or subsidiary camps existed. At that time there were about 240,000 members of the General SS. The Waffen SS did not yet exist at that time.
In my explanation of the question of the organizations which I submit as an appendix, I have proven that the "Totenkopf Units" (Death's Head Units) created in 1934 as special troops of the State, were not paid by the Party but by the Reich, and that they had in common with the General SS only a part of their name, "SS," and the chief, Himmler. (This follows in particular from Hitler's Secret Edict of 17th August, 1938, and from Document SS 84.)
Of importance seems to me the following change after the beginning of the war, when the wave of destruction begins to mount slowly in the concentration camps.
Six thousand five hundred men of guard personnel were sent to the front with a newly formed division. Thus they were eliminated entirely from the concentration camp system. During the course of the entire war there were employed about 30,000 men in the concentration camp system, as can be seen from the testimony of Brill and from Affidavit No. 68 (Kaindl). These included new arrivals and departures. They comprised about 1,500 men of the original cadre of the Totenkopf Units and 4,500 men originally from the General SS.
These 4,500 men were a part of 36,000 members of the General SS who had been called up until 1940 upon the emergency service decree, and who had become members of the Waffen SS. The remaining 24,000 men of the concentration camp personnel - that is, eighty per cent - originally had no nominal connection with the SS. These were 7,000 persons of German descent or extraction who had been called up, 10,000 German nationals who had volunteered to go to the front in the Waffen SS and 7,000 soldiers subordinate either to the Army or the Air Force. Many of the volunteers came from the SA, the Reichskriegerbund, the Party and other organizations. All, with the exception of the original personnel of 1,500 men, had been assigned the task of guarding the concentration camps against their will upon the order of Himmler, and without their having any connection with the Kommando Amt of the Waffen SS. Only in the course of the war were these guarding and administrative units of Himmler's nominally taken over into the Waffen-SS, Himmler thus transgressing his powers. This
[Page 122]
was done in order to prevent the personnel of the concentration camps continually having to be freed from military service, that is to say, for reasons which were practically to eliminate the regulations of military supervision. After the unequivocal evidence given by the witnesses Reinecke, Juettner, Ruoff, Brill and many others, there can be no more doubt that the State police tasks of the concentration camp system did not change for all that, and that in particular the concentration camp system did not become a concern of the Waffen SS. Indeed, the entire concentration camp system, even after the formal transfer of the guard personnel into the Waffen SS, was not directed and administered by the leading agencies of these organizations, but by a special office, the well-known Amtsgruppe D in the chief office of the Economic Administration, WVHA (witness Stein, Affidavits Fanslau SS 41, 100, Frank No. 99)."
These 4,500 men were a part of 36,000 members of the General SS who had been called up until 1940 upon the emergency service decree, and who had become members of the Waffen SS. The remaining 24,000 men of the concentration camp personnel - that is, eighty per cent - originally had no nominal connection with the SS. These were 7,000 persons of German descent or extraction who had been called up, 10,000 German nationals who had volunteered to go to the front in the Waffen SS and 7,000 soldiers subordinate either to the Army or the Air Force. Many of the volunteers came from the SA, the Reichskriegerbund, the Party and other organizations. All, with the exception of the original personnel of 1,500 men, had been assigned the task of guarding the concentration camps against their will upon the order of Himmler, and without their having any connection with the Kommando Amt of the Waffen SS.
Now this highlight is not meant to say 'see, they didn't want to guard concentration camps'. No excuse in my book - I'd like to think that I would have chosen imprisonment over being a guard. But along the lines of what I said above - there were many involved directly with the final solution that had no connection with the SS at all, let alone the Waffen-SS. And when you use a simplistic explanation like 'the final solution was the responsibility of the SS' you are letting guilty persons 'off the hook'. The difference between guilt and innocence is not determined by the insignia on a uniform or the presence of a uniform at all. It is determined by what an individual did.
It was even spelled out by the Allies after the Nuremburg trials:
"The classification of the SS as a criminal organization does not imply that ever member of the organization individually was a criminal."
This was stated because the Allies, being present in postwar Germany, pretty quickly understood that alot of Germans who were 'on the books' as part of the SS organization got there without ever joining the SS. If you were a railway policeman near an 'SS industrial complex' after 1941 or so you were all of a sudden an 'SS rail security officer'. Here's your uniform.
The entire history of what went on is far more complex than many are aware of. My point is this - nearly every facet of German society had a hand in what went on. To pin the entire blame on one uniformed group and one uniformed group alone is to not treat the acts commited with the seriousness they deserve.
Mike/wulfie
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Many of you here know your history. You can differentiate between what the Waffen SS did, and what they did not do.
The crux of the matter here is the fact that you are much more informed than the average AH gamer.
So what HTC has to determine is whether or not it's worth lost revenues to allow one person to keep their handle.
Sometimes, companies have to bend to the will of the masses, even if they are incorrect.
Example: I bid on a WWII German Helmet on E-bay. There were no swastica's on it. It's only emblem was a red chevron with a white circle in the center. E-bay cancelled the auction because it violated their policy on the sale of Nzau Memorabilia.
Was the helmet beaing Nazi markings? No. Was it German? Yes. But to protect itself from bad pubilicity, and the loss of business, E-bay would rather refund the auction fees, lose the commission on the sale, and cancel the auciton.
HTC may very well do the same.
On a lighter note, what about a comprimise? Would it be acceptable if the person in question took the "SS" out of his handle and just used Waffen? Is'nt that just german for Weapon?
I would not object to this.
BTW...What the hell did SS stand for and what does it mean?
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Okay, the discussion has been mentally stimulating - thanks to all.
To whomever asked - 'The Forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer is a great book. Anyone (especially you Fd-Ski) who wants a really close up look at life on the Eastern Front during WW2 from the point of view of a 'nobody' (as opposed to a General)...I highly reccomend it. The Naval Institute Press has called it WW2s version of 'All Quiet on the Western Front'.
I've got to go back to work now, which means I won't be able have free time to get a computer and access the AH BBS for at least 5-6 days. Don't take my absence as a lack of interest in the discussion.
For any interested - transcripts of the Nuremburg trials available at the Holocaust Educational Resource: http://www.nizkor.org/
Mike/wulfie
"Talk to you guys when I get back."
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Originally posted by Tumor
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My thoughts exactly.
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wulfie, i've read it.
While it was compelling, i was having trouble understanding how he can still look in the mirror every morning.
What stuck with me the most was thing about thowing granades into roomful of civilans KNOWINGLY.
This is in assult of Kiev i believe. From that point on, i had hard time finding pity for author or his collegues.
Wulfie, i'm sorry but I have trouble with the recent trend which victimizes ALL germans with exception of hiter and 7 of his closes buddies.
German army, from top general to lowest private, went to war willingly. It was a war of attack, not defence. Even if France and Polish campaigns didn't make it clear to them, Eastern front should have. They were not just "doing their duty", they were murdering innocents while follow the madman's orders.
The heroses of German forces were those who put the muzzle to thier forehead and removed themselves from the evil machine the only way they knew how. And those who actively attempted to remove hitler by force. Those were the heroses of Heer/Luftwaffel/SS Waffen and all Germany.
"I was just following orders" is not an excuse.
"I was defending a fatherland" is a roadkill excuse.
They were defending Hitler. Not Germany. And i believe that most of them knew the difference. However, germany of Hitler was just so much nicer then pre-hitler germany, wasn't it ?
And who minds few million dead jews and other lesser humans. We need the space for our race !!!
Next to my home city of Lodz there is a concentration camp. A small one. Very small one. In all aspects. It was a CHILDREN camp. Complete with nice small body burning ovens, children sized. So no, i don't have pitty for anyone who would fight for "that". And anyone with IQ higher then 10, who traveled though poland or russia between 39 and 44, would have figured that out.
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Originally posted by fd ski
German army, from top general to lowest private, went to war willingly.
Yeah... just like the Americans in Viet Nam. :rolleyes:
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>>If the above is a true account, I see nothing wrong with the title. It's no different than the Luftwaffe.<<
Operative word.. "If". The SS, waffen or some other version were part and parcel of the political ideals of a sick and vicious Nazi regime. The passage you quoted is one great big rationalization, and revisionist in nature.
The Waffen SS committed atrocities as well as the other branches of their organization. Stories abound about what they did to their own people near wars end if they didnt show the proper overzealousness to die for the lost nazi cause.
That a guy should choose to use a name which replicates them implies bad taste to me though, but then again, I am not a victim of nazi or SS atrocities so, maybe I don't feel it as much. If it offends, perhaps it shouldnt be allowed.
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What stuck with me the most was thing about thowing granades into roomful of civilans KNOWINGLY.
We firebombed Tokyo, we dropped 2 atomic bombs on civilian areas.....KNOWINGLY.(and they would have done the same to us)
They say war is hell for a reason
BTW, is Boobs banned?
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To Wulfie
I'm 33 (why ur asking ???)
and i was born in Western Germany (Bundesrepublik Deutschland).
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To Sixpence
Boobs dont kill so why should they (he) got banned? :D
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I personally would prefer to have all historical names and markings allowed in this game, including WaffenSS.
And what exactly is historical about a Luftwaffe pilot calling himself "SSwaffen"[/i}? lol ;)
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Wow wulfie... thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences. It's rare to have first person sources from both sides of the war. I will attempt to save the material in this thread, knowing you may have more when you return.
So far, until reading this thread I've bounced back and forth between the two sides. I think I've gotten a more balanced view of this subject now. Studying such flammable subjects as this require extremely critical thought. Information that includes bias, propoganda, and emotion can be hard to distiguish for someone like me who does not have access to primary sources.
Hearing the replies from our European friends, I can't help but feel sorry for them. So many wars were fought on their soil through hundreds of years I'm sure they're tired of it. For the Germans, two world wars and the holocaust seems to have resulted in a pacifist society. It seems the guilt of it all has resulted in them not wanting a part in any armed conflict unless it is together with NATO/UN (see Iraq subject). Personally I don't think I can blame them for that either. There was just too much collective pain inflicted on too many people to get over it so soon.
As for the username, let HTC decide, it's their playground. Their decision is final after all, no matter what any individual here thinks the decsion should be. Although I don't think anyone who posted here would like to see this happen, how would Aces High be if HTC decided to pull ALL axis aircraft from use? Or make all axis aircraft AI? HTC could then avoid these kinds of things altogether. No axis aircraft, no axis squadrons, no affiliations with the Nazis/Fascist Italy/Imperial Japan. No arguments as to who is more virtuous. I trust HTC will make wise decisions.
mauser
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I think there's a lot of people in this thread that are missing the point. Those that know and appreciate history, understand what the term "Waffen SS" represents. Sure the SS was a lot of different things but the one thing it was notorious for was it's brutality and radicalist leaders. It's the association between the radicalists/brutality and the term Waffen SS that makes it offensive. It didn't matter to the Russian soldier capturing SS personel if he was personally guilty or not. He was SS and his unit was responsible for many of the atrocities committed on that front so he was treated as a guilty party.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Yeah... just like the Americans in Viet Nam. :rolleyes:
you supposedly *know* your history, so i'll take that comment for the weak troll it is.
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wulfie I've not took the time to read fully your posts
Can you in ONE short sentence show me the difference betwen the Waffen SS and the SS ?.
And you shall not use the "defending fatherland" BS or "following order" BS.
Next after having showed me you infinite wisdom you'll please explain me Oradour Sur Glane in ONE sentence also
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Originally posted by blitz
What about some idiot uses "Osama Bin Laden" as callsign next, in combination with "TwinTowerKillers" as squadname?
If they'd chose TwinHangarKillers and were a bish squad, that would perfectly fit :D
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Originally posted by Shane
you supposedly *know* your history, so i'll take that comment for the weak troll it is.
It's not a troll. Just a point. Both the Germans and the U.S. used conscription.
The notion that they all go to war willingly is just silly.
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What stuck with me the most was thing about thowing granades into roomful of civilans KNOWINGLY.
And how does that differ of Allied air raids to civillian targets KNOWINGLY?
Handgrenade to a room is worse than 1000 bomber full of bombs on a city?
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I Want To Know How And Where Is Jerry Springer Involved In This Discussion.
I Mean Come On Guys This Is A Game, Plain And Simple.
There Are More Names Out There That Play On Twists And You Pick On One Guy With SSWaffen Sofaking What.
I Believe Thats A Name In AH Never Saw A squeak About That, I Think Its Hysterical.
This Is A Game This Is Not Real Life, No Matter How Much You Want It To Be WWII Was Done Along Time Ago.
Sorry For My Stupid Post I Just Cant Believe People Getting So Riled Up Over A Name.
Half Of The Guys In Here Talk About Sheep And Their Uses In AH, Havent Seen A Complaint About That.
So I Guess Its Just A Certain Few Things That Aren't Allowed Because It Doesnt Exactly Or Historically Match WWII.
Again Sorry For The Stupid Post I Just Dont Get The squeak In All This.
L8r L8r,,,,
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What a stupid thread
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this whole thing started because J_A_B cant get his _ _ _ in his handle, i'm not sure but i think it has to do with the way a computer reads the "_". it could be only letters and numbers are allowed.
44MAG
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It's not a troll. Just a point. Both the Germans and the U.S. used conscription.
The notion that they all go to war willingly is just silly.
and look at how each society eventually dealt with the war in question. not gonna go thru listing various points of differences and similarities - i think you're smart enough to see that your offhand comment about Viet Nam had very little correlation to the discussion at hand.
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Originally posted by john9001
this whole thing started because J_A_B cant get his _ _ _ in his handle, i'm not sure but i think it has to do with the way a computer reads the "_". it could be only letters and numbers are allowed.44MAG
don't insult HTC's coding abilities, man...
JAB used his own handle whines as an illustration to shut the "free speech" mavens up before they got started (as if that did any good) because HTC has already shown the 1st Amendment does *not* apply within game, and that this concept should be quickly and consistently applied to a handle that *is* offensive in nature. The *combination* of SS (which alone can mean a variety of things) with Waffen (which is basically a word for "weapon") is *only* associated with nazis and their *political* beleifs, despite all the apologists trying to hump this issue's leg into submission.
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Alright, who are you and what have you done with the real "Shane"?
:)
I guess if I read this board long enough, I might even start to agree with Lazs.
This is getting a little silly guys, but let me make one final point.
I'm not Jewish. I never fought in WWII. I am a white, american male, 31 years old, born and raised in New York.
I find it offensive.
Now, am I overly sensitive? I don't think so. I'm of Italian descent, but I have no problem with Dago's callsign.
It's just slang, even if it's derogatory.
What SS's callsign brings to mind is the horrific offenses commited by a maligned group of people. Every time I see a callsign like this, I'm reminded of the images I've seen on TV of the camps.
I would feel the same way if there was a callsign like "Slavemaster", "Whitepower", "KillWhitey" etc.
I don't need this when I'm supposed to be relaxing.
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No actually 44MAG I brought that up only to show that HTC already limits what people may or may not call themselves--it was an attempt to shut up the "free speech" crowd before they got started. Looks like it failed :(
I posted this thread to let HTC know the situation and I expect them to act if they haven't already. I'd be shocked if they decided to allow this guy to keep his despicable name.
Using a name like "luftwaffe" or JG2 or whatever is one thing....the germans would have had an airforce whether or not the Nazis had ever come to power. The SS though, including the Waffen-SS, existed solely because of the Nazis, which is why you cannot escape the connection. You can try to minimalize it all you want, but you cannot ever fully escape it.
Yeah the war ended 60 years ago. So what. The Nazi flag, Adolf's book, the propaganda, the gas chambers, the Nazi salute, the various SS organizations, even the word "Nazi"....they're all very hateful items unfit for a computer game, whether it's "realistic" or not.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Using a name like "luftwaffe" or JG2 or whatever is one thing....the germans would have had an airforce whether or not the Nazis had ever come to power. The SS though, including the Waffen-SS, existed solely because of the Nazis, which is why you cannot escape the connection. You can try to minimalize it all you want, but you cannot ever fully escape it.
J_A_B
This is your argument? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Shane
and look at how each society eventually dealt with the war in question. not gonna go thru listing various points of differences and similarities - i think you're smart enough to see that your offhand comment about Viet Nam had very little correlation to the discussion at hand.
Are you daft?
Many of the the Waffen-SS were conscripts. The notion that every member of the Waffen-SS went willingly to war is silly. Every bit as silly as stating that every U.S. soldier sent to Viet Nam went there willingly.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Are you daft?
Many of the the Waffen-SS were conscripts. The notion that they went willingly to war is silly. Every bit as silly as stating that every U.S. soldier sent to Viet Nam went there willingly.
the conscription of people to fill the depleted ranks of the waffen-ss occurred because of the aforementioned reason - depletion of willing nazis - considering these units were the apple of hitler's eye, one can understand why they chose to conscript people into a political unit instead of other services - to avoid having these units disappear from the OOB.
now the whole issue of volunteer vs conscritpion is nothing more than a revisionist attempt to gloss over the underlying concept of the waffen-ss, that of a military arm of an entriely political branch that espoused, to put it bluntly, genocide. we're not talking individuals here, "SSWaffen" is not an idividual identifier, as much as it is a political and conceptual identifier.
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What? You don't believe Wulfie's accounting of the Waffen-SS.
So far, he sounds far more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone else here.
Of course... that's just my opinion.
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Well, one mountain out of a molehill.
And I don't see lost revenues for HTC, maybe some lost BB space though.
BOOBS!!!
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It's a disgusting call sign.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Many of you here know your history. You can differentiate between what the Waffen SS did, and what they did not do.
The crux of the matter here is the fact that you are much more informed than the average AH gamer.
Exactly. Here's a quote from my previous post: "I hope people would take a minute and study the topic before making wrong assumptions."
Best regards,
Camo
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It's a digusting, horrible thing. Almost as bad as cat juggling. :(
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sswaffen got booted... done deal so ya'll can stfu now.
Before anyone starts the usual chest-thumpin routine...
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if that screenshot is relevant to the subject at hand, i'd say that it kind of disturbs me considering what was said. so waht was he booted for, tumor? that lil screen shot gives no contextual info.
i dunno if HTC made any email contacts suggesting he *change* his handle.... i would most definitely hope so. if not... then i'm just very disappointed that HTC would allow and/or encourage through silence this kind of handle.
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Cat juggling never resulted in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dead people. It never resulted in the wholesale execution of civilians, children, or captured POW's.
Ask the 60 or so POW's from the 3rd Canadian Army. Wounded tankers and infantrymen, machine gunned by the SS and buried in a shallow grave near a French villa in the days immediately after D-Day, while their capturing SS Unit retreated. A documented War Crime for which the SS Commander escaped the noose.
This is not about free speech. The Waffen SS were horrible, murderous bastards. Don't try and rewrite history. Visit a War Museum some time, even in Germany, and see the tales of their handywork.
Yes, in WWII bad things were done by both sides. Most by theirs. War is not a nice affair. But the cruelty and disregard for norms of behaviour, and Law exhibited by the SS deserve a special place in the memory of the World as a warning to us all of what can happen when the goals of the State outweigh the moral fabric of one's society.
Stop making excuses for the SS! Following the arguments of their defenders the Jews should be considered simple casualties of war. The Death Marches the Japanese held in Asia are simply a movement of people.
When is the last time American, Canadian, UK or other Units had wholesale approval to put bullets in the the heads of civilians, or torch occupied homes, or torture and kill POW's? Or round up entire segments of an occupied population, and execute them? Do our troops carefully dig great big holes and fill them with bodies, hoping no one will ever notice?
I'll tell you. NEVER. Stop apologizing for the poor little persecuted SS.
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OK Japanese Planes Hit Pearl Harbor: Remove Them Please
German Planes Well Speaks For Itself: Remove Them Also
Russians Killed More Of Their Own Than The Enemy Did: Remove Them Please
Bill Clinton Got A Hummer In The Oval Office: Remove American Planes.
Brit And Italian Cant Think Of Anything Right Now So We Get Them To Fly.
This Is What You Have Suggested Get Rid Of A Name Because Of What That Party Did,
Well Get Rid Of The fediddlein Planes Too.
No No Cant Have That Now Can We.
Damn Hypocrites,
To squeak About A Name Is As Rediculas As It Gets, If Your Offended By A Name Then I'm Offended By The Planes As Well.
Peace Out Cant Wait To See The Replies To This One
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repeat after me
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I guess it all boils down to this:
People who want WaffenSS and related names removed from the game are pro-censorship.
People who do NOT want them removed are pro-information.
Bad things do not go away if we hide them in the closet. The closet always gets opened sooner or later and they come nasty on our face.
Censorship is a very very bad thing. I'm appauled to see the level where it has been already taken in USA. Basically your young will soon lack the basic knowledge of any important factor in history (and nipples of women.)
I do not see why someone should be even a bit offended of some CALLSIGN in a GAME 50 years later that is related to an event none of us surely even witnessed. There is absolutely no need to censor these things. I'll rephrase it's a very bad and dangerous thing to go through that road. It's important that we know and it's important that we remember.
What do you think the Jews rant about the holocaust for? They don't try to sweep the thing under the rug, no! They throw it on our face. Because that's the only way we can even hope that we learn from past mistakes and prevent history from repeating itself.
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Originally posted by Hussein
I guess it all boils down to this:
People who want WaffenSS and related names removed from the game are pro-censorship.
People who do NOT want them removed are pro-information.
Wrong ... Completly Wrong
People who do not want them removed are implictly authorizing nazi propaganda and lowering the act of the nazi to a simple event in history.
How can you tolerate political propaganda in a game ? they is some children playing here and they will just think 'wow it's cool to have Goebbels as handle'
The people here defending the use of "S...en" as handle are just ignoring history has they are not disgusted in the instant by this kind of handle :(
You probably thing that I'm a censor .... it's not true I just don't want that a infamous handle will be use in a recreational game
We are not here for education we are here gaming for nothing more.
I do not see why someone should be even a bit offended of some CALLSIGN in a GAME 50 years later that is related to an event none of us surely even witnessed.
Because for YOU it's 50 year for my familly and myself it was YESTERDAY
We Euro are living with this souvenir all day
Each day I face when going to work one or more memorial to those who have fallen during WWI or WWII.
At 2 km of my house there is the wreck of a panzer destroyed during WWII I don't forget as I CANNOT forget
There is absolutely no need to censor these things. I'll rephrase it's a very bad and dangerous thing to go through that road. It's important that we know and it's important that we remember.
I fully remember and I don't want a 15 year old child to use this kind of handle just because it's "cool".
I prefer giving money to build more museum.
What do you think the Jews rant about the holocaust for? They don't try to sweep the thing under the rug, no! They throw it on our face. Because that's the only way we can even hope that we learn from past mistakes and prevent history from repeating itself.
You seriously think that "S...en" choose his handle just for us not forget WWII ? ins't the whole theme of this game WWII ?
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Originally posted by JustJim
To squeak About A Name Is As Rediculas As It Gets, If Your Offended By A Name Then I'm Offended By The Planes As Well.
Peace Out Cant Wait To See The Replies To This One
Read my previous posts! BTW Ur argumentation is so ... so ... different, it shows deap knowledge of the world and deap knowledge of this thread ur surely the Master of History and european culture.
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Straffo you miss the point. Where I stand, people have the liberty of choice and I'm not going to limit what someone wants to call himself in the game, or publish.
If you start censoring stuff, where do you draw the line? What guarantees once you go on this road that the line doesn't get tightened?
And btw, did you really think I'm from baghdad? I might be euro just like you.
Ok maybe I'm taking this a bit to the extreme afterall this IS just a game and a privately owned one. My concern is far beyond this game, but this mentality is exactly the same.
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Originally posted by Shane
if that screenshot is relevant to the subject at hand, i'd say that it kind of disturbs me considering what was said. so waht was he booted for, tumor? that lil screen shot gives no contextual info.
i dunno if HTC made any email contacts suggesting he *change* his handle.... i would most definitely hope so. if not... then i'm just very disappointed that HTC would allow and/or encourage through silence this kind of handle.
He was booted for acting like a love muffin on channel 1, new arena (not entirely suprising eh? lol)
I think the final straw went something like this
"sswaffen: this game sucks Azz"
Tumor
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Originally posted by Mogi
Cat juggling never resulted in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dead people. It never resulted in the wholesale execution of civilians, children, or captured POW's.
Maybe not, only because Pig Eye Jackson and the cat juggling ring did not capture soldiers, but he was capable of much worse. :(
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Originally posted by Hussein
Straffo you miss the point. Where I stand, people have the liberty of choice and I'm not going to limit what someone wants to call himself in the game, or publish.
When the liberty of the other start start to limit your own what do you have to do ?
I think that "liberty" is attacked when someone wave in way or another a Nazi flag. I don't understand why we should let those speak ... in short : no democratia for the enemy of democratia.
If you start censoring stuff, where do you draw the line? What guarantees once you go on this road that the line doesn't get tightened?
I don't know for sure were to draw the limit but I'm sure"S...en" has crossed deliberatly the border of decency.
And btw, did you really think I'm from baghdad? I might be euro just like you.
Dunno and don't really care :)
To make my position clear :
Freedom of opinion : YES
Freedom of expression : NO, if your opinion stink => STFU !
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The Death Marches the Japanese held in Asia are simply a movement of people.
I don't think the bataan death march qualifies as a simple movement of people.
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Straffo the 1st amendment (and similar in other countries) apply also to people who have messages you don't want to hear.
You can't legally force someone to shut up just because you don't happen to like what he has to say.
A fully another issue are laws set which criminalize nazi ensignia and material such as they have in Germany. But even those laws are post war fabrications which were set to make sure the extreme nationalism would not be allowed to raise again in Germany. It still doesn't mean that group names of wartime units would be somehow immoral or even that the svastika would be somehow immoral. It's just a sign and the real context lies inside the viewers head.
I have no problem seeing someone call himself Stalin, Jihad, Hitler, JWBush, Saddam or anything.. I can't stop to wonder how people pick on small things, seems like some have no better things to do with their time.
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"You can't legally force someone to shut up just because you don't happen to like what he has to say. "
wrong
"A fully another issue are laws set which criminalize nazi ensignia and material such as they have in Germany. But even those laws are post war fabrications which were set to make sure the extreme nationalism would not be allowed to raise again in Germany. "
In spite of your opinion of those laws, they exist. It's not a seperate issue. This game's customer base spans the globe.
"I have no problem seeing someone call himself Stalin, Jihad, Hitler, JWBush, Saddam or anything.. I can't stop to wonder how people pick on small things, seems like some have no better things to do with their time."
The first amendment doesn't mean a business owner has to allow people to say anything they want or dress anyway they want in spite of what restrictions are in place on his premises. This includes the names we select in a virtual enviroment. HT has already stated he didn't want to attract negative elements into the game by allowing certain characters to be used in a player callsign.
Try walking naked into a restaurant (that doesn't accomodate nudists) or using profanity in a place that has the usage of it banned.
When you buy out HT you can add a disclaimer to the website telling everyone about how free and wonderful the enviroment will now be then you can reap the benefits from it. ahem.
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"People who want WaffenSS and related names removed from the game are pro-censorship. "
#1. Your beloved first amdendment doesn't apply to businesses. HTC is a business. Businesses may choose to regulate whatever conduct they wish to.
#2. Although you seem to be be unable to comprehend this, I have pointed out numerous times that HTC already DOES "censor" many things in AH. This means there IS NO "free speech" in AH so your entire argument is irrevelant.
Of course, seeing as you use a name like "Hussein" with location "Baghdad", I wouldn't expect you to say anything that makes much sense. In that regard, you don't disappoint.
J_A_B
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Self inflated panties in a bunch...
...four pages of it
Your right Rude, stupid thread
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Only thang worse is doofs that read it all and post that they were too stupid to avoid doing it. Guhyuck! :D
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Originally posted by john9001
this whole thing started because J_A_B cant get his _ _ _ in his handle, i'm not sure but i think it has to do with the way a computer reads the "_". it could be only letters and numbers are allowed.
44MAG
Can we have a dumbest user of the week award please.
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This thread confirms it............. We all have way too much time on our hands.:rolleyes:
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Arlo with a thread like this, you read the first 10 or 12 replies and skip to the last page.
The middle is just more of the same...
ccvi had the best observation on how any of this actually relates to the game ;)
..that and creamo's sad commentary on cat juggling..
Cat juggling is an AFRONT to all of us and something MUST be done..
Those two totally entertaining posts are up a few, buried amongst the panty wads..
If you look, this thread wasn't TOTAL pap, so in some ways worth the read..
So in closing, if you see a cat juggler, call the local authorities...PLEASE ???
Now without further ediu, back to the pap...
Because I doubt even after 4 pages of it, they haven't "quite" got their point across.......
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Originally posted by Hussein
Straffo the 1st amendment (and similar in other countries) apply also to people who have messages you don't want to hear.
There is not such amendement where I live and I don't feel the need of such an ammendement : in my country the "déclaration des droit de l'homme" the constitution and finaly the law exist
to protect our freedom .
And it's simply against the law in my country to be Nazi or publicly wearing Nazi artifact for exemple ..
You can't legally force someone to shut up just because you don't happen to like what he has to say.
Wrong I've said it's again the law.
How long will I be free in USA if I start to wear an Osama T-shirt with some anti-american slogan ?
A fully another issue are laws set which criminalize nazi ensignia and material such as they have in Germany. But even those laws are post war fabrications which were set to make sure the extreme nationalism would not be allowed to raise again in Germany.
Your are showing here that you are obviouly not an European and that you've never been in touch with any german.
It still doesn't mean that group names of wartime units would be somehow immoral or even that the svastika would be somehow immoral. It's just a sign and the real context lies inside the viewers head.
I agree on the head part I'm not like some in this thread who are confusing the SS with a Boy-scout organisation and have posted tons of BS.
I have no problem seeing someone call himself Stalin, Jihad, Hitler, JWBush, Saddam or anything..
as YOU said YOU don't have problem : I have and I publicly say that I won't negate the importance of the symbol by letting a teen use it just because "it's so cool"
Some symbol shouldn't be use in a recreational environement Period.
I can't stop to wonder how people pick on small things, seems like some have no better things to do with their time.
I don't think I loosing my time explaining you that in a gaming environement we should not let use a symbol and just don't care.
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Originally posted by LLv34_Camouflage
Thank you for the educating posts, Wulfie!
I just hope you are not forming your opinion just on those posts
You need to read a bit more than this to have a proper opinion of the SS and the Waffen SS.
I would have pointed some document but they are unfortunatly in french and not all reader of this BBS undertsand french.
btw I hope that in his next post Wulfie will be able to explain me simply what the "malgrés nous" are ...
I'm so sorry to be culturaly inferior to him and I'm just unable to see the difference between the SS and the waffen SS... except form an administrative point ...
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Read two posts to figure out this thread was fluff'n rediculous. Get a book, read about the differences within the SS. The Waffen SS had absolutely nothing to do with concentration camps. As for "atrocities" can anyone name a country that hasnt committed any during conflict? Too much Spielburg and not enough thinking is dangerous and you might invest in thinker skin.
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Grizzly, all Im saying is that if the letters SS in an online handle upset J_A_B enough to post a whinge on this board about it, life must really SUCK for him, I cant begin to imagine how much the important things in life must upset him.
I realise that war brings out the very best in men, but it's undeniable that it allso brings out the worste ( I like that word), and that no nation/side is completely innocent of horrific acts.
The passage of time does, in my opinion, reduce the immediate importance or relevance of things, are you as rabidly anti-American as you are anti Nazi?, does the word Columbus upset you? after all, the US of A was created on stolen ground, and it's native inhabitants paid in blood; women, children....the lot.
I'll take a blind stab in the dark here ( and I may well be wrong)and say it doesnt, and you arent, why? well toejam, that was a couple of hundred years ago, it's not like you personally raped any Sioux ,Cherokee , Inca or Mayan, nor stole their land.
60 years, 200 years, 10 000 years, whats the diff? Are all Americans, or anybody displaying the Star and Bar, or the Stars and Stripes genocidal thieves?
My country was founded pretty much the same way, European settlers stole the land off the natives and called it their own, if they disagreed, they got shot..... does this mean I should despise the British and be ashamed of my flag? of course it doesnt.
Im not a Nazi apologist, or a Hitler wannabe as you suggest, I just dont buy into the 'We won WWII, so we must be all that is pure" crap....mankind sucks, we do some really horrid stuff to one another, and no race is any more or less guilty than any other.
Why is the Jewish peoples' suffering during WWII of any more importance than that of the native Americans, the Australian Aboriginals, the New Zealand Maori, or countless other races/cultures throughout history? And why are the Nazis more villified than the Spaniards, the Dutch, the French or the British colonists?
Passage of time maybe?
PS, I believe the twin lightning strike symbol of the SS dates back to Norse mythology and runic writing, the Schutzstaffel just borrowed it because it looks good in silver over a black uniform, and happens to be an abreviation of their unit name.
PPS... I have seen someone in the AH main arena flying under the handle SPQR, think of the attrocities that symbolises, yet does it offend anyone? reason....passage of time and the fact that its merely a couple of letters.
As we say down here, same toejam, differant bucket.
War doesnt decide who is right, just who is left
Loooooong prety much idiotic thread, but enlightening none the less.
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"I cant begin to imagine how much the important things in life must upset him. "
You'd be surprised at how thick-skinned I am.
But as so many are fond of pointing out, AH is a game. I'd rather not see trash like this in a game which I play as a diversion from reality. HTC has the power to create a pleasant atmosphere in their game and it's my hope they do :)
J_A_B
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I fully agree with you Oedipus it's exactly my though.
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Well as of last night we now also have "FlyNAZI" in the MA... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by MWHUN
Well as of last night we now also have "FlyNAZI" in the MA... :rolleyes:
I just picked up on this thread. Id not noticed the Nazi Craz. I did see Flynazi and SSWaffen for the first time last night.
I am surprized HTC allows them. Profanity isnt allowed. I expect to see KillJews flying next.
If its upsetting alot of folks, and you can tell by the length of this thread and the radio traffic its caused. Maybe it would be a good business desision to dis-allow those types of callsigns.
I highly doubt people will stop flying AH if those callsigns are removed.
I do think they are offensive and are not needed.
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Grim......
The second coming of Ripsnort!
The Knights Salute you!
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Grim......
The second coming of Ripsnort!
The Knights Salute you!
LOL...
Im not sure if I should be Flattered or Insulted ;)
The truth is Ripsnort and I are Both Clones, He was sent first to prepare the way..... beware, more will be coming. LOL!
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So I guess that would make Rip the "John the Baptist" to your "Jesus"?
*laughs*
Bad enough we're pissing off everyone with the "Nazi" threads, let's see if we can't get the catholics in an uproar.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Bad enough we're pissing off everyone with the "Nazi" threads, let's see if we can't get the catholics in an uproar.
wouldn't you reach a much wider and more foamable audience if you went after the southern baptists?
:)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So I guess that would make Rip the "John the Baptist" to your "Jesus"?
*laughs*
Bad enough we're pissing off everyone with the "Nazi" threads, let's see if we can't get the catholics in an uproar.
OMG!!! LOL!!!
No, I dont want to stir anyone up.. Well, maybe give Rip a little jab in the ribs ... but thats about all...
The only thing close to Jesus for me is when I tell a corny joke and everyone goes.... Geeeessss....
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This thread started as a moot point and has not improved. We do not tell everyone, everything we do. We exercise things everyday to what we believe is the benefit of the community.