Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: funkedup on October 03, 2002, 12:58:31 PM
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Pyro said so, sometime in 2000, on this board.
But I can't find the thread.
Anyone know where it is?
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Maybe that was his intent, but I still think they put a Merlin 70 in there. 18 lbs of boost and all, not 16.
Thats beside the great "acceleration debate" which I think is not settled by the IX having either engine. Im not going there :) But I am interested in the flight model of the AH Spit IX, and what it most closely represents.
Me, I think its a H.F. IX with a Merlin 70, slower at low alt, but faster as it goes higher, with 18lbs boost max.
I have taken one up to 43, 500 ft as well. Its not ez, but it can be done.
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from the horses ( Sorry Doug :) ) mouth:
Merlin 61 in Spitfire 9 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=300435)
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Originally posted by Squire
Maybe that was his intent, but I still think they put a Merlin 70 in there. 18 lbs of boost and all, not 16.
Thats beside the great "acceleration debate" which I think is not settled by the IX having either engine. Im not going there :) But I am interested in the flight model of the AH Spit IX, and what it most closely represents.
Me, I think its a H.F. IX with a Merlin 70, slower at low alt, but faster as it goes higher, with 18lbs boost max.
I have taken one up to 43, 500 ft as well. Its not ez, but it can be done.
Best climb in AH is only like 3800 fpm. For a Merlin 70 it would be closer to 4500 fpm. That fact and Pyro's statement settle the issue for me. I think he just needs to fix the boost gauge. :)
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Best climb in AH is 3800 fpm in a IX, since when? Take it up and give it full boost, its off the chart, better than 4000 fpm initially. Thats what initial climb rate is. Even a Merlin 61 can do better than 3800.
Im so glad there is no question that HTC could not make a mistake, I guess that settles it all . Musta been the case in Warbirds too, cuz I know all the FMs are 100 percent there too :)
Anyways, I may very well be wrong, but then that doesnt explain the 18 lbs of boost, does it?
Later.
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all id like to know is WHEN is it going to be fixed?
we seem to have a spit5 that over performs or is incorrect (according to what pyro said in that link) but has remained unchanged?
sheesh im beginning to think AH has its own fantasy setups and all we ever hear from people on these boards when we question them is how spot on they are.seems to me after all the adjustments we have seen over the last few years that it is far from 'spot on'.
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Originally posted by Squire
Best climb in AH is 3800 fpm in a IX, since when?
Since forever.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/spit9climb.gif)
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Originally posted by Squire
Im so glad there is no question that HTC could not make a mistake, I guess that settles it all . Musta been the case in Warbirds too, cuz I know all the FMs are 100 percent there too :)
As if I said anything remotely like that...
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by hazed-
all id like to know is WHEN is it going to be fixed?
we seem to have a spit5 that over performs or is incorrect (according to what pyro said in that link) but has remained unchanged?
The error discussed in that thread was fixed a long time ago.
Nice hijack attempt though.
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I put a smiley face there Funked, no big deal. I do see the chart shows less than 4000 fpm but thats kind of hard to measure since initial rate is very fast.
In any case I dont think 300fpm diff at 30k is a great deal, and the #s dont exactly match a Merlin 61 by any stretch either, not speed or climb rate.
I will leave it there. Like I said, as far as the acceleration debate goes, well, I will see what is posted by others.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Squire
... and the #s dont exactly match a Merlin 61 by any stretch either, not speed or climb rate.
Well here (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html) is a whole mess of data for Merlin 61 and 70 Spits, and you can judge for yourself which matches AH better. I'd say the Merlin 61 is a closer match, but YMMV. :)
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Best climb in AH is 3800 fpm in a IX, since when? Take it up and give it full boost, its off the chart, better than 4000 fpm initially. Thats what initial climb rate is. Even a Merlin 61 can do better than 3800.
There was a post by Hitech or Pyro, back during the beta, I think, that said the Spit IX climb indicator reads high. It still does.
Ignore the climb indicator, and use a stopwatch to measure time to altitude. The Spit IX matches the chart on the HTC page, not what the climb indicator shows.
and the #s dont exactly match a Merlin 61 by any stretch either, not speed or climb rate.
The AH climb figures are pretty close to the Merlin 61 figures, slightly lower in some cases. They are way off Merlin 70 figures.
If you compare the F IX Merlin 61 speed figures to the AH Spit IX, they are very close. The HF IX figures don't match in speed or climb rate, and by a pretty large margin.
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Ok, interseting. It could be the Merlin 70 did climb a lot better then, although the speeds are close.
Did the Merlin 61 ever get 150 octane? and if so, what boost did it get max?
P.S. Hey Fd-Ski you big ape!!! how come I dont see you in AH Events with 308 RAF?
Anyways greetings.
:)
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I think the Merlin 61 was retired in 1943, before 150 octane was introduced to service planes.
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heyya Taur, i was wondering what happend to you ;)
I noticed that 416 attendance wasn't quite what it used to be..
So, when are you joining 308 ? :)
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Man, I hope they correct the Spit V soon! I'm tired of it outaccelerating, outclimbing, outdiving, and outrunning everything -- especially that crappy undermodelled Luftwaffe stuff.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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"heyya Taur, i was wondering what happend to you
I noticed that 416 attendance wasn't quite what it used to be..
So, when are you joining 308 ? "
Maybe once you guys put arrestor hooks on your planes ;)
(416 is pretty much all here as 880 Fleet Air Arm now)
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Its the Navy life for me now Ski! :) Having fun with my new unit (click the link in the signature), and we are doing well in AH events. Im just glad we had a place to go to. As Chanter (Sniper) said we are all pretty much in 880 now from the old 416 crew, although a few have remained in Warbirds.
308 seems like a great bunch, I had the pleasure of flying in some of the TODs with them, most notably Malta. Good to see they have some CMs in the roster too.
Cya up sometime I hope!
Later
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With Merlin 61 it means either it accelerates too fast or the 190 too slow. My guess is on the second.
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I did a bit more digging, it seems there were Merlin 61 Spits operational past 1943, which makes sense since the RAF was still using Spitfire LF Vs in 1944. They wouldnt retire them prematurely for no reason.
94 Sqn Operated Spitfire IXs from Cyrenaica (Med Theater) in June 1944. Serial number "MA766" was a Merlin 61 Spitfire, the CO of the unit flew that one.
As for 18 boost, it seems there were times when it operated at that level (from Funkeds link) but I dont have any more data on that. I also dont know enough about engines to speculate.
As for 150 octane, it was available at some point, as to wether any Merlin 61s ever used it operationally, I dont know, but many Allied fighters did use it post 1944. Need more data.
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Spitfire: the History has MA766 as a Merlin 63 aircraft.
There's more info on 150 octane usage at http://pub131.ezboard.com/fallboutwarfarefrm31.showMessage?topicID=535.topic
See also the links on page 2 of that thread.
As a sum up, all the Spit IXs in ADGB were using 150 octane from Spring 44, most of the rest of ADGB soon followed (Mossies etc). In July 44, Britain produced 40,000 tons of 150 octane, ADGB used 12,000 tons. ADGB usage fell off as the Germans retreated from France and Belgium.
2nd TAF switched to 150 octane in Jan 45. US 8th AF switched in the summer of 44, for all it's fighters. Mustangs at least switched back to 100/130 towards the end of the war.
In the RR documents on one of the links, it gives details for which engines can and can't benefit from 150 octane. The Merlin 61 isn't listed.
The description for the Merlin 63 (and a few others) is "These engines are a development of the Merlin 61 type, and are essentially high altitude engines. They have a strengthened supercharger drive which was introduced to permit the use of 21lbs boost pressure, and which is likely to be the main limitation to futher increases in boost pressure."
The Merlin 63 is listed as 18lbs on 100/130 ful, 21lbs on 100/150.
I don't think the Merlin 61 ever used more than 15lbs operationally, and that was probably down to the supercharger.
Note, on the link Funked posted, the Spit IX on 150 octane was performing poorly, about 20 mph slower on 18lbs boost than was usual for a Spit IX. Go to the Spit VIII page for a better idea of what a Spit IX on 150 octane should be capable of.
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Cool, I appreciate the info on that! , I was looking everywhere for that kind of info. Yes, I double checked my book, it is a Merlin 63 Spitfire. I guess I was looking for "non Merlin 66s" that were used in 1944 anyways.
So 18lbs boost in a standard F. IX can be correct, for a Merlin 63 powered version.
I understand more Merlin 63/63As were in early F IXs than 61s?
Later.
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Going from memory, the first 350 or so Spit IXs used the Merlin 61, then production switched to the 63, 66 and 70, for the F, LF and HF respectively.
Again from memory, I think around 1000 Fs were produced with the Merlin 63 and 63A, with around 3000 LFs, and a fairly small number of HFs.