Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Swoop on September 07, 2000, 01:24:00 AM
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Attrition.
Well kinda.
Here's the scenario: Some base somewhere is under attack by 20 rooks......currently the base is defended by just 2 fearless bish (ok, ok, I'll stop the Bish plugging). So one of the Bish happens to blurt out on channel 2 that this base is under attack and about 10 more Bish immediately spawn up at this base (or nearby).
Is that even slightly realistic? Ok, ok, I know you could argue that those pilots would have been on standby at the base in real life.
See, what I'm suggesting is to stop people from spawning wherever they like. Make em take off from wherever they just landed. If they got shot down (and survived) make em spawn from the nearest friendly base. If they died make em spawn from miles behind the front line.
1stly this would add some kind of attrition to the battles, no longer would a battle between 2 close bases (eg A16 & A27)continue until one side wins or gets bored. The side that has more successes should see a drop in numbers of the enemy until reinforcements could arrive from elsewhere in the theater of operations.
2ndly you'd also be able to mount surprise attacks on lightly defended enemy bases without suddenly finding 20 cons taking off to shoot at you. However, keep an eye on the horizon.....them P51s move fast ya know.
Ok, go ahead.....lemme know how daft my idea is and feel free to point out all the problems with it.
Swoop
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I like it !!!
Sound realistic too
May be nice to implement a random spawn base when you die or get captured (as is already when you login).
But i expect lot of whines about the transfer flights ("we are paying and we want quake in the action ASAP, we dont care about RL"), when you spawn far from frontline.
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Why's it always got to be Rooks as the aggressors? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But seriously, that makes great sense. It would also eliminate alot of vulching kills.
Kronos
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I was at one time trying to get this approved in my last sim. But I lost out to that fast action crowd.
The idea is great actually and would be welcomed from me and others. There are a few valid concerns about doing this but I believe the advantages far outway the disadvantages.
Wingnut
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I could die a happy man if we had the game setup like that.
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"..he shoots fire out of his eyes and lightning bolts out of his arse..."
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Er, whatever happened to strategically hitting targets to prevent spanwing? Like, have someone hit the fighter hangars, Vehicle hangars, and Ammo depots....if you have floks spawning an airfield that you are attacking, then someone is failing to do their job.
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I've got some problems with that idea, Swoop.
First, I don't think it is any more realistic than our present system, and might be less realistic. Would a military leave 75% or more of its bases without pilot or tank crews? We don't have enough players to provide for standing plane & tank crews at each base. So I think letting players quickly move to a base that is under attack effectively mimics the "scramble" that you would undoubtedly see in reality.
Beyond that, I think there would be a lot of unforseen problems that would crop up with that plan in practical application. For instance, lets say a person logged out at a NE base. When they log in the next day all of the fights are in the NW. Are they going to spend 30 minutes flying across the map before seeing any action whatsoever?
And if you have it to where you can launch from any field when you first log in, then people will just log out and back in everytime they want to jump to a new base.
Maybe there are some other ways to accomplish what you want that are less drastic?
Gordo
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I'm with Rip...
Use strat to shut down the base. Pure and simple.
AKDejaVu
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Kill the base and they can't take off...
I'm sure that a 4 hangar base would have a compliment more than just 2. I know what you mean though Swoop, nice idea but it'll never work. Just kill the base.
Regards
'Nexx'
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Add a "bunker" (or "bar" hehe) in which all the pilots "sit"... kill that place and you kill the pilots.. then Swoop's idea would come into play.
I like swoops idea because he is correct in the sense that a base can literally launch the whole pilot population of a certain country in matter of seconds.
Another thing that MAY do the trick is to have the base only allow a fixed number of pilots to take off after a certain building has been destroyed (say the before mentioned "bunker" or "Bar"...or why not that annoying TOWER that is unkillable now and we all want to shoot to kingdom come)? Say you blow that building and the base will not allow any pilot to do the .move command (so only the ones that were IN the base at that time will have to be the defenders)and only allow 46 launches total from the players in that base.
That would simulate the fact that airfields DID have a limited amount of pilots and planes, and that no airfield could "magically" teleport 20 other pilots and countless planes to take off from the field for its defense. Either way, in AH the REAL defenders take off from another field, grab alt and clean the sieged field.. those who take off from a sieged field are either Quake monkeys or HO lovers or they must have a distinct passion to get vulched.
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Tac,
They might just be trying to defend their base.
I know it sounds way out there, but its a thought.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Kill The base, Tac read the 4 posts above yours.
There was a time here when we couldnt close bases. Gave ya something to do while waiting for the goon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Thing I like most in this idea is that it makes you really "fly for your life" and
still not giving too big penalty when you get shot down.
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Karnak, I do know that you can "close" a base and be done with it. People close bases to avoid ackstars and vehicles and any other annoyances that may get the goon or M3.
I do not like the idea however of a base spawning all the population of a country in a matter of seconds. No base can have THAT much pilots or THAT many planes. What I proposed was only to simulate the limited resources a base would have when under attack.. in which case it would be actively bombed and no reinforcements or supplies could get through to it because it IS under attack.
Closing bases is also another matter. It can be done yada yada yada, but WHEN do you see a base being closed effectively? Only when its either 2 strato buffs plinking everything while they dodge MIR or when its a mission composed of a dozen fighters. Most of the time you just see one buff missing its bombs, 5 or 6 players that converge on a field and try to close it but they also miss some bombs, then all of the sudden 20 pilots up from that base and a furball ensues. Just like what happens all the time in 16-27.
What I SUGGESTED merely limits the possible ackstars and HO dweebs that up from the base like mad.. it does not limit the amount of vehicles or planes that can come from a nearby base to lift the siege... and remember, you still have to hit that tower/bunker/bar/whatever to get the desired effect.
Closing bases is cool, but it gets real old to have your goon or m3 disco or get shot down by the fighters that came from another base (or upped from the base that was attacked because the M3 or goon took too long or was shot down en-route) and have the acks and FH's come back up before a second goon attempt can be made. Face it, most of the times you have ONE shot at capturing the field after its closed. If it fails you get those furballs and vulchfests that last for hours and hours and the winner is the one that can stand to be in such stagnant position all that time.
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TAC: "Closing bases is also another matter. It can be done yada yada yada, but WHEN do you see a base being closed effectively?"
I'm going out on a limb and guessing you don't fly for the Knights, do you?
You haven't seen Zig, Cave or myself lead guys off to capture airbases have you?
Tac:"Closing bases is cool, but it gets real old to have your goon or m3 disco or get shot down by the fighters that came from another base"
Ever heard of BARCAP? Knights (and my squad in particular) use it effectively.
Also, when we do ops, we usually have a C47 or M3 hidden just off the field, so from the first bomb dropped, to the landing of troops is usually about 2 min, not enough time for someone to come from another base.
Sounds like you need to join a good squadron Tac, evidently, if you are in one, you're not effectively using the tactical advantage that an organized squadron can offer. Just my opinion.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-07-2000).]
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The big problem with that is if let's say Bish only has 20 people online and Rooks have 40 and Knights have 30 how are the Bish gonna be able to defend themself? The Rooks could send 20 AC to 1 base and there is nothing the Bish can do.
To me this idea goes away from the individual pilots to more of a swarm. i.e. the side who has the biggest swarm wins.
I think because of the un-balance of the sides if you did away with respawning at a base you would make base captures to easy and would do away with having to kill a base before capturing it.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Close the base? Please re-read my original statement.
"and about 10 more Bish immediately spawn up at this base (OR NEARBY)."
BARCAP? yeah ok, go on then. Have fun.
And Ripsnort, yeah we're all impressed by your ability to plan and lead raids. But you're missing something, see, using a system like I've suggested enemy forces could be 'out flanked' by simply getting organized. Which should give you even more of an advantage, given your preference for missions.
And there's more.....what about that pesky M16 that re-spawns and blows your wing off before you've even turned around? *
(yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, close the base)
It just brings something new to think about......where is the enemy right now?
Did the US forces in the pacific have flyable fighters from EVERY base ALL the time?
Swoop
* Copyright Kbman. ;-)
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I really think we should pick and chose what realistic qualities we want in this sim. Sure.. respawning isn't realist. What about knowing that as long as you are turning, ack is most likely going to miss? What about knowing exactly how many ack/hangars/etc are located at each field and be able to hit each with incredible precision. How about being able to know if any defenders are airborne near a base BEFORE you even launch?
There are very viable ways to capture bases. I see it happen all to often to believe this isn't possible. Learn to do it right.
AKDejaVu
ps. Why do I get the feeling that the same people bringing up these issues are the same guys spending 3 hours trying to take A16 or A27?
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The Wrecking Crew and some of our associates have closed and captured several bases in record time. We have even done it to defended bases.
Now the trick is to ensure that everyone in your country doesn't organize and work together. A vast conglomerate of pilots flying for themselves is the key to success in this aspect. I think that the 357th Pony Express and 13th TAS should disband, they are obviously holding the Rooks and Bishops back.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Ripsnort, when I was on my 2 week trial AND when I subscribed (well, the 2 months I was in any way) I was a Knight. Zig's missions rewl because they ARE missions and people flock to them.
But that is not the point. All I'm saying is that if fields had some limitation when they are under attack, it would make the game much more interesting and inmersive (sp?), not a race to get up ackstars and god knows how many hundreds of fighters launching over and over from the same airfield, which promotes the always hated ackstarring and HO dweebish defense.
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hi all:
well the biggest problem I can see with this idea, is simply put, the numbers. right now the Bishops have the numbers, next tour will be the Rooks or the Knights, time will tell.
now if the Bishops decide to attack 5 fields at once, and the defenders have to come from god knows where, then the Bishops will take all 5 fields. but next tour either Rooks or Knights will be doing it. last night the Bishops where attacking 16 from either 20 or 26. they had lots of pilots and still could not take the base, well atleast not well I was on, maybe when I left they might have taken it. but the point is, they did not close the base, so we Knights where able to defend it. Now at one poiont, the Knight put together a mission to take 26, the Bishops suddenlly had 20 to 30 pilots there, I saw at one point, 8 or 9 m-16 on or by the field, a lot of these pilots had been flying out of 20. the Bishops held 26, the Knights held 16, the Rooks had 8 pilots online in total and where doing what ever they do. the point is, close the field and you can take it, as far as having to fly from god knows where, not a good idea. if that was the case, we would all be looking for the fields that have nobody at and attack them. if I wanted to attack fields with no defenders, I could play off line for free. you want to take a field, then close it and get your goon in fast. the Knights know this and that is why we can do it.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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No problem with respawning at the base ONCE or nearby bases as many times as you like...but being able to respwan 89 times at the same base is BOOOOORRIIINNGGGG . Think this idea of SWOOPS is GREAT ! I mean geez .. we got pinpoint radar in the airplane , sector indicators to find tanks and stuff , huge dots for cons 9000 miles away .. and this respawning 89 times cr*p all the time. NO MORE QUAKE PLEASE ! How simple do you people that are opposed to this idea want it to be ? you all need aim9 missiles also ? I also feel that we need better AAA or air arty at all the bases , for one or two people to be able to capture a big base by themselves on the sneak is blah, or maybe make it so that more structures need to be killed off . like the barracks and and whatever , or maybe make it so the 50 cal aa comes up in 15 mins.
[This message has been edited by carl (edited 09-07-2000).]
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Wolf37,
Let me give you a brief rundown of what happened at 26. I know you were there, but your story seems incredibly skewed.
Now at one poiont, the Knight put together a mission to take 26
This wasn't recognized at first. The Bish had been trying to take 58 for some time, but there were people defending it. After one sortie.. in my F4u-1D... I was nearly out of gas and was returning after patrol. I saw that a massive red bar had appeared out of the base near 26, but thought it was heading back to 57. I thought "if they want it that bad they can have it". As I neared 26, I spotted 6.. no 8... no 10... no 12 knits at about 12k (I was about 13k at the time). I called out to my squadmates that were also in the area for assistance. There were a total of 4 AKs on at the time.
I aproached the column from the left at a high rate of closure. Tons of 47s, 38s and 1Cs... I knew what was going on. I dove in and began attacking the planes I deemed most likely to be heavy. I got 1 P47 and pinged another pretty badly before running out of gas (barely had enough to catch the groupe). I pointed the nose down and drug 4 of you low before dying.
The rest of the cons proceded to 26 as 4 AKs and a couple other Bish defended it. It is at this time I began my verbal assault on all of the Bish that had been hitting a16 for the last 2 hours.
Nobody came to help.
Your group shut down 26 completely... taking out the VH and the FH in a timely manner. I distinctly remember the last FH going down as I pointed my nose towards the p47 that got it. Yes.. I had respawned.
The bish finally began to respond. Some were coming up at nearby F17... others waited until the VH came back up (that's 15 mins for those that don't know). The knit M3 didn't show up until after then. I downed the C47 shortly thereafter.. and plenty were in place to get the second m3.
You guys had a 15 minute window to get troops in.. but blew it. The whole flight went after ground targets and died as a result. Bish didn't have numbers until after the first wave. You blew it.. pure and simple.
AKDejaVu
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Dajavu, the Knights did not close the field at a26 last night. now I know you where braggen about how great you and the rest were for holding a26, but the we Knights failed to close the field, there for we did not take it. and if the Bishops had to all fly from god knows where, it would have been ours.
so if the game goes the way swoop would like to see it, then it works against everybody.
and I honestly dont see a lot of new pilots signing up to spend most of there time just flying to a base. maybe the Bishops seem to think that is ok, will give them more time to get lots of alt, but if I wanted to just fly around for hours, I would not be paying to do so online, I'd just play offline.
swoop, you asked what we think, well I for one think it is a bad idea and would be a bad move for HTC. the idea is to get more people signed up and playing, this is not going to do it.
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wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Great idea.
[This message has been edited by edward (edited 09-08-2000).]
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Everyones opinion is great but can I point one minor thing out:
IT AINT ABOUT BASE CAPTURE.
And Wolf, what you said happens anyway without having to think about spawn location.
Swoop
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Sorry Wolf, you are wrong.
The knits took out the VH and both FH on the initial attack, but had nothing left in the area to follow up with.
I know this because I had to launch from A17 when I blew the landing in my F4 and lost a strut.
And.. I wasn't bragging about 26. I was responding to a certain whiner who was complaining that too many people began to spawn at 26 (well after the initial attack) and that those that were spawning at 26 were gang-banging alt monkeys. This after that pilot dove into a hornets nest for the 3rd straight time with no support.
Once again, you didn't see great numbers until the second wave of the attack. That time you remembered to bring a couple of b26s and a b17... but it was too late. The window of opportunity had been missed.
Once again.. you blew it.
This all comes down to a country trying to attack a relatively undefended country with a large attack force (12 planes or more) and being thwarted initially by a small number of planes (6) on your first wave of attacks. You couldn't sneak a field.. boohoo. After that it turned into Mayhem. Maybe next time you won't trigger our attention with that big red bar launching from the base next door.... or you'll have to pay a tad bit more attention to those low fighters over the base instead of just diving in on ack without regard for the enemy situation.
I was the only plane there over 5k and I ran out of fuel. Something was seriously wrong with your (or whomever's) plan. Time to admit that.
AKDejaVu
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Carl:"I also feel that we need better AAA or air arty at all the bases , for one or two people to be able to capture a big base by themselves on the sneak is blah"
First issue, AA, been there done that. AA was tougher, and everyone squeaked about it.
Second issue, only a handful of pilots (most who have been here since Beta) can do what Cave did, I challenge you to do the same, then come back and tell me that the AA is too easy to kill. With all due respect, sir,Put up or shut up.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-08-2000).]
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BTW.. on serious flaw with most attacks is how strung out the attackers get on the second wave. This attack definately degenerated to that after the first wave. Something to consider is just exactly when you should call it quits on an attack.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 09-08-2000).]
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Bingo Deja, as a rule , VMF-323 only makes 2 sorties to the same airfield, if we don't get it in two, we move on, because its too tough once the enemy is notified of our intentions.