Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lephturn on December 28, 2001, 08:23:00 PM
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I've finally completed the huge trim article I've been working on... seemingly forever. I've had this mostly done for a couple months. Holidays have finally given me the time to finish it. Wooohoo!
Read this: http://lephturn.webhop.net/trim.htm (http://lephturn.webhop.net/trim.htm)
If you are an ace, you know some of this already, but maybe not all. If you are not an ace, the lack of this knowledge is one of the reasons your are not an ace. :)
Comments, feedback, constructive criticism all welcome.
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and do me a favour and punt it every so often will ya? Please? :)
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high-five Leph..
much appreciated!
Like you said, I knew much of it but not all of it... the parts I didn't know will come in very handy :)
I may have to ask you to clarify a point, when I return, regarding setting auto speed to 'save your bacon'.
I'm OTW Denver and will be back late weekend.
Again, great work and much appreciated.
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ok.. so I read the whole thing.. nevermind :)
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Wlfgng ]
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Bookmarked and thx Leph.
You should send a link to HTC to put on their training page FAQs etc.
10B
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not sure if i agree with all that :) but I'm not ready to give out any secrets
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nice read Leph, I imagine it'll help alot of us out.
I would like to point out a couple of discrepancies though:
from section 5:
Any of the auto trim modes can be switched off by using the manual trim keys, by hitting any of the auto trim mode keys, or by moving your controls significantly.
Auto trim for angle: Using the manual elevator keys will NOT disengage auto-angle. You can adjust your pitch angle using the manual 'vator trim while auto-angle is engaged. I don't recall for sure, but I think you use adjust rudder trim to make small changes to heading w/o disengaging auto-angle also.
Auto trim for speed: using the manual rudder trim does not disengage auto-speed, but lets you slowly adjust your heading. This is very useful in formation for holding position. This also applies to auto-level.
It's been so long since I actually tried all the trim controls with the various auto modes that I can't remember if the aileron trim controls will disengage the auto mode.
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Very nice Lepht !
Came back home with a new Joystick yesterday, and it took me 7 augers to discover I had pitch trim keys mapped the wrong way. (I usualy get out of compression in a dive using trim keys, especially in the 109's... this time I plunged 7 times steeper into the ground :D)
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Yeah good article Leph..
I trim manually mostly myself though.
I'd like to hang more with you lepthurn (with the D30) I'm getting very much into it. Only the la7 gives me a very hard time on the main. Maybe some pointers on those?
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Caveman... thanks dude, you are correct but I almost never do this so I didn't think of it. Much appreciated, I'll research this one a bit and fix that. Can I include a quote of yours in there? (With credit of course.)
paintmaw, no blowin' smoke man... if you disagree at least tell me with what part so we can discuss it. In private first if you want. If I've made a mistake I want to fix it. Having incorrect information out there doesn't help anyone. Keep your secrets if you must, but please don't let me put false information out there if anything is not right. Do what's right for the community. I'll be sure to give you full credit too of course if you like. I just want to be helping folks here.
I firmly believe that information and articles like this help keep folks interested and active in AH. It benefits all of us to have lots of helpful and correct information out there for folks to help them enjoy the game. If anybody sees something wrong, please point it out either here or via email. sconrad@hfx.eastlink.ca I would appreciate it, and so will lots of folks who will be reading the article.
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Nice article, very informative. That said, it was my understanding that the auto trim/ auto climb features were designed into the game to take some of the load off the player during boring climb outs and such, using them in combat is a bit gamey for my tastes. Combat trim is for the video game crowd. Fly the airplane, dont let the computer fly you.
CRASH
Originally posted by Lephturn:
I've finally completed the huge trim article I've been working on... seemingly forever. I've had this mostly done for a couple months. Holidays have finally given me the time to finish it. Wooohoo!
Read this: http://lephturn.webhop.net/trim.htm (http://lephturn.webhop.net/trim.htm)
If you are an ace, you know some of this already, but maybe not all. If you are not an ace, the lack of this knowledge is one of the reasons your are not an ace. :)
Comments, feedback, constructive criticism all welcome.
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: CRASH ]
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Using Combat Trim or the auto-trim modes to control your trim surfaces is no more "gamey" than using a very expensive HOTAS setup and mapping manual trim to hat switches or wheels. Flying should be about ACM and primary flight controls, not flying the plane with the trim controls. Combat Trim and the auto-trim modes even the odds a bit for those of us that do not have high end control setups, though they are still not as effective as a killer control setup and manual trim in some situations.
Combat Trim is for everybody in the game. It's a simple tool that everyone should understand, even if they want to disable it. Fly the airplane with the flight controls, not the trim tabs. Combat Trim is a usefull tool and it has it's place in the game. Manual trim is important too in some situations, but simply disabling CT completely is silly, there are times when it is useful and it can be disabled and enabled quickly and easily.
Regardless of what the intent of any of these trim features was, the fact is they are part of the game. Understanding how they all work and when to use them is important, even if you decide to disable them. If not using certain features makes you feel more manly or something, fine, but don't look down on others for using the tools that are available to the best of their ability.
There is a point to be made about CT and how it affects your "feeling of flight" though. I do think that feeling the trim balance change as your speed changes contributes to the "feel" of the FM for many folks. I think I'll add some stuff about that in the CT section.
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<S> Leph, thanks for this info!
:)
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Update. I removed a couple of things that were wrong about manual trim disabling the auto-trim modes. I also expanded on the difference between high-speed control slugishness and compression. Oh, and I added a bit about Combat Trim and why folks may want to disable it.
Thanks to Andy Bush and CavemanJ for the feedback that allowed me to make these changes. I still need to research more about using manual trim while the auto-trim modes are engaged, but I plan to add that as well.
I think I'm going to re-write my example flight at the bottom of the article. It's not really a typical flight at all, just me trying to explain uses for the various trim tools. I don't like it as-is, I think I'm going to re-write it.
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<SALUTE> Great artical , just a few things I do a bit different . I know in some AC such as a heavy spit9 (3 eggs) if you get up to speed app. 200mph you can get the same climb rate as Alt X with higher speed . the LA7 if you get your speed up to around 300 you can climb app. 3000fpm opposed to 160mph in alt+X . Usually in a dog fight I will click combat trim , on and off real quick just to get trimed out . The only other time I use CT is when diving in to drop eggs on a Night Hawk :) . This may be a bit gamey but it seems to work for me . Also I turn up the wind sounds to get a audio feel for how fast I'm going so I can focus on target without watching my speedometer . Alt+X is a good feature for a smoke break though . These items may not be right but the work for me (not really secrets ) , good job though Lephturn <S>
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Really good article Lephturn!
I was talking to a couple of "flyers" in the CT last night and they were having trouble with manual trim. None of them peruse these boards so there may be some thought as to getting this info out to them better. HTC may want to think about a monthly news bulletin. :)
I explained about using CT and then progressing to manual trim but one major issue some face is the lack of a complicated HOTAS setup with enough buttons to use manual trim in an efficient manor.
I've found that I can easily tell now, after my time in AH with trim, when *any* of the AH planes I'm flying is out of trim. The reported lack of "feel" being absent as one reason for it not being a real life feature needed is due to inexperience imo. AH trim like simulating shifting with a "12" speed bike. No PC program could ever replicate the "feeling" a rider gets when the resistance to pedaling changes but over time a player can tell when to shift by all the information that IS presented in front of you. Same way for knowing when to use flaps or when you're at the best cornering speed all without having to deliberately looking at the dash guages to note airspeed or the G meter.
Westy
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Flying should be about ACM and primary flight controls, not flying the plane with the trim controls.
My point exactly. When you engage the auto trim features, not only are you not controlling the trim, but the computer is manipulating them to fly the aircraft. In your article you mention using the trim feature to get the computer to find the best rate of climb for your particular a/c and situation while in combat. To the best of my knowledge wwii pilots didnt have pentium class pc's to fly their airplanes for them or auto fly features to use while in combat. IMO it is the epitome of gamieness.
"If not using certain features makes you feel more manly or something, fine, but don't look down on others for using the tools that are available to the best of their ability."
I have absolutely no idea what "manly" has to do with a computer game/simulation and I dont base my opinions of anyone according to how they fly a computer game. That would be silly, now wouldn't it? Leph, you asked for opinions and I gave you mine. It's a very well written and informative article, there's no need to be defensive about the "manlyness" of auto trim.
CRASH
[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: CRASH ]
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Lephturn is a trainer, his job is to HELP new people getting into this game. You hardcore olddtimers can fly the planes blindfolded and without hands if you like.
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quote:
There is a point to be made about CT and how it affects your "feeling of flight" though. I do think that feeling the trim balance change as your speed changes contributes to the "feel" of the FM for many folks. I think I'll add some stuff about that in the CT section.
i think this is an important point. if a person flying aces high went into a real plane and expected it to fly the way a combat trimmed plane does in ah then they would be quite astonished. "why is my plane automatically pulling out of this dive" and other similar things would likely be heard. i flew aces high before i ever flew a real airplane and i found that aces high without combat trim serves as a reasonable (within limits - - ie no turnbulence)approximation of flight. with combat trim enabled this is not true and the flight model definitely loses some fidelity. that said, i dont think it gives an edge in combat or is "easy mode" but i think it is a definite disservice to those who use it since they are missing out a better approximation of flight that is available to them.
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Originally posted by CRASH:
[QB]
My point exactly. When you engage the auto trim features, not only are you not controlling the trim, but the computer is manipulating them to fly the aircraft. In your article you mention using the trim feature to get the computer to find the best rate of climb for your particular a/c and situation while in combat. To the best of my knowledge wwii pilots didnt have pentium class pc's to fly their airplanes for them or auto fly features to use while in combat. IMO it is the epitome of gamieness.]
Well, first of all, "gamieness" implies a bad thing the way you have written it. This IS a game after-all. There are lots of things we just skip that they had to do in WWII. We don't freeze our behinds off at altitude, we don't fly for hours upon boring hour never seeing another plane, and we don't actually die when we get shot. We like to simulate the parts that are fun, and shortcut the rest to keep it enjoyable. For some of us that means we can shortcut the endless trimming that real pilots had to contend with in some aircraft particularly. The beauty of Aces High is that we can choose to do it all ourselves, or to have a slightly lower peforming shortcut in the case of CT. The auto-trim modes are required to be able to effectively use the text radio system if for no other reason. Also, auto-trim for speed doesn't find the best climb speed for your aircraft, it simply holds the aircraft at a given speed. By default they set that speed to the best climb speed at sea level and 100% fuel (I believe) for that craft to give you a starting point. As your plane changes weight and you change altitude, that climb speed becomes far from "best". :)
I have absolutely no idea what "manly" has to do with a computer game/simulation and I dont base my opinions of anyone according to how they fly a computer game. That would be silly, now wouldn't it? Leph, you asked for opinions and I gave you mine. It's a very well written and informative article, there's no need to be defensive about the "manlyness" of auto trim.
CRASH
Poor choice of words on my part. I took "gamieness" as a negative comment about using Combat Trim and the auto-trim modes. The implication to me is that using CT or auto-trim is bad. My appologies for getting a bit defensive with you. Let me explain my concerns here a bit, and see if I can explain in a more rational manner this time. :)
My concern is that AH some players will give new folks a hard time about combat trim or using the auto-trim modes, putting pressure on them to not use these tools right when it's most important that they learn to use them. Maybe I mis-understood, but your original response above seemed to belittle the use of these tools. I don't think it's right to belittle the use of these tools, because by association it belittles the folks that really need to use them. I'm looking to make sure that folks new to the game are treated with respect, and that they know about all the tools available to them to ease the learning curve. I don't think we should be telling (or implying) new pilots NOT to use CT or auto-trim because it's to "arcadey" or "gamey". To me, that's looking down on new pilots because they are not knowledgeable enough to use manual trim yet. That's where the "manly" comment came from on my part. I looked on what you wrote and to me it was like saying to a newbie "real men don't use CT" if you see what I mean. I got defensive because I think that kind of attitude will hurt the community by making it even MORE difficult to get into playing AH. It's a tough enough blow to the ego to begin your first mega-player flight sim as it is, as we've all learned the hard way. :) Anyway, sorry to go off on you, it was a bit of misplaced frustration there on my part.
However, I have taken what you said seriously, and I have taken a point from it. Basically, I think I've highlighted some of the possibilities of the auto-trim modes in somewhat odd ways in the last part of the aritcle. I'm currently working on re-working that part to be more reflective of what a real flight might be like. I think I'll take some of the more extreme examples out and try to highlight a more "typical" use of these trim features.
Now I DO use combat trim, but I know some of you guys don't. I would appreciate some examples from those of you that don't use CT at all on how you use the trim tools in a typical sortie.
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"I would appreciate some examples from those of you that don't use CT at all on how you use the trim tools in a typical sortie."
FWIW I do not use 'speed' trim, just level and angle features. And the only time I use those are in non-combat environments such as when in level cruising, climbing out from takeoff or being low from a fight and grabbing altitude again or when in a shallow dive to landing at home.
I have a good CH setup: Pro throttle, F16 Fighterstick and Pro peds (thanks to Vermillions good advice 4 years <G> ). I placed my manual and auto trims on two 4-way thumb hats on the stick. I have my elevator and ailerons trim use one 4-way hat while the rudder trim uses half another along with the auto angle/level trim functions.
When I am level I take off auto trim and go manual. Note: I use different machinations depending on if the torque is CC or CCW. Because when you get slow and are turn fighting that torque will kick yer arse for you if you are not trimmed right. Especially in the Yak, as well as many other planes :)
I concentrate on keeping the ball centered as much as possible, via (mostly) rudder trim, so that my forward view is REALLY my forward motion :) or else my shots will miss.
Also elevators are critical to keep the nose neutral so that only my stick input cause my nose go up or down. If I feel that the nose wants to "pull" in either direction I counter with some appropriate trim input.
Wings wanting to pull the plane into a bank is the same. I try to counter it with some aeleron trim.
It's mostly an honest "feel" from "time in type." I know the Yak best while the N1K2 or Spitfires the least. I know when to add or reduce trim for any of the axis based on "feeling" excessive resistance to any direction I want the plane to go in. I feel that I have a good grip on most planes performance limits - good enough to be a worthy adversary most times ;) - that if I was in an F6F that my turn is not very tight and my nose is pulling up because I need to work the elevator and rudder trim.
My thumb gets a good workout :) I just add very smal but quick adjustments of trim till the plane doesn't fight my stick input any more. Initial stages of combat from a fast speed to a slow turn fight may need a LOT of manual trim adjustments and vice-versa. And for me it's mostly about keeping that ball centered.
And it's very much like learning the FM envelope on any of the planes. It takes time and patience to learn any planes trim "personality" but when you have it's far far better (and more combat efficient imo) to fly with than using "CT."
(wow. rambled. Well I hope I was at least in the ball park with an answer that landed close to where your question was)
Westy
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Sounds like I use trim the same way as westy. Never use any auto trim features in combat, except while extending level 20 ft over the water just so I dont have to keep trimming. My manual is a 4 way index finger switch on my saitek throttle. I've never seen the need to trim rudder in combat though I may be missing something, I know an uncentered ball in actual acm would scatter your shots but it seems to me that at any speed over 175 or so the ball stays pretty much centered in turns. Landing and takeoff is always all manual trim. I use pitch trim extensively during combat as speed changes come quickly. If I'm on a dive bomb run I trim the nose 75% down so I dont have to do it while in the dive. I usually trim the nose a bit heavy before shooting, helps to steady the shot. I'm of the opinion that the faster a new pilot gets away from auto modes the quicker he'll understand the a/c and how flight actually works. I realize trimming with the keyboard sucks but a saitek hotas system costs less than $100.00 and anyone who can afford it should have one, certainly anyone who is considering learning to fly for real should get the whole setup, it helps quite a bit with learning to taxi, trimming the a/c, coordinating your turns, ect.
Now, as for the age old reality debate :), yes its true, we dont sit on boards, open all our windows to the outside air to bring the temp down, wear heavy leather and wool jackets to stay warm, fly around for hours on end without seeing another ac or bleed when we get shot...all true. Its a question of reason. Is it reasonable to simulate that? Would that be a fun thing to simulate? Ofcourse not. Is accurately modeled engine management reasonable and fun for most flight sim enthusiasts? Sure, as long as the new guys can toggle it off if they need to....not too hard to program I would think. Sit on the ground too long without the cowl flaps open and you overheat. Poor mixture control, engine stalls. Accurate bomb site machinations reasonable? To my mind they are. I realize its just a game but I think the closer we get it to the real thing, within reason, the better it will be.
CRASH
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Combat trim feature probably saved me two joysyicks... I was constantly working manual trims buttons mapped to the stick to get the stick forces 'neutral'. Just Like I do when flying the company's Piper Dakota.
Trim ain't gamey.. trim is reality. Just like most things, if you know how to use 'em and why, the process becomes automatic.. just like the combat trim feature.
Great article Leph, and thanks!
<S!>