Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Puck on October 07, 2002, 12:58:12 PM
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When I worked at the University we had Parking Nazis, in AH we seem to have Callsign Nazis. Self appointed guardians of tase and offense who have declared themselves the arbiter of appropriate callsigns.
I do think the self-righteous Callsign Nazis are more annoying than anything you can cram into 8 characters.
But then again that's just my opinion.
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Why don't we look at this from a business perspective.
Do the "Nazi" callsigns offend most players in the game?
Probably not. Do they bother me. Sure, a little, but not enough to make me pull my account.
But let's assume you have one, just one, grandson of a holocaust survivor playing AH.
What's going to happen if this person signs on, sees these callsigns, and is depely offended? Perhaps he or she will be upset enough to make a phone call to the JDL, or some other organization.
You know how the media, and activist groups just love to get their hands on stuff like this.
Worst case scenario, you've got protesters outside the HTC office, calling Dale and Co. Anti-semitic.
Now, I ask you; is it worth it to let someone have a callsign?
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Just a virtual form of online trolling (Outrageous names...the handle "pnus" offends me, because frankly I only like one, my own...but I don't whine about it)
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That's what it's all about. Extortion.
You just have to love America.
People are not stupid, they're just sheep. I have to keep reminding myself not to expect too much from a flock of sheep. For some reason I keep loosing that lesson.
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A name based on an actuall WW2 organization in a WW2 flight simulator. The shock and horror of it all.
ALL LW BASED SQUADS MUST BE BANNED!!!
Now if the nick had be KillaJEW or DIEnigga or some equally assinine tripe, then of course HT should do something about it.
The rest is just silly.
F.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
But let's assume you have one, just one, grandson of a holocaust survivor playing AH.
What's going to happen if this person signs on, sees these callsigns, and is depely offended? Perhaps he or she will be upset enough to make a phone call to the JDL, or some other organization.
You know how the media, and activist groups just love to get their hands on stuff like this.
Worst case scenario, you've got protesters outside the HTC office, calling Dale and Co. Anti-semitic.
Now, I ask you; is it worth it to let someone have a callsign?
I'm not disagreeing with you muckmaw...I am somewhat ofended too..BUT:
If I was a granschild of a survivor I would have to accept that I had joined a WW2 sim and that there are "bound" to be some such silliness going on.
I would simply change countries (if necessary) and make it my sole goal to kill the offending player time after time....but that is me.;)
and...on your last point...any advertising is good advertising..particularly when it is "free".
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Originally posted by Curval
If I was a granschild of a survivor I would have to accept that I had joined a WW2 sim and that there are "bound" to be some such silliness going on.
Unfortunatly that's not how it works in the good 'ol USA. You kick and scratch to get into the 'locker room', then complain about the conditions once you're inside and expect everyone else to change to suit you.
Muckmaw is right, I'm sorry to say. If what you say offends me I'll take legal action to make you stop saying it. I grew up under a different rule; if what you say offends me I won't listen. Rules change.
The whole Political Correctness thing has pretty much made swiss cheese out of an individual's right to free speach unless that individual has the legal and financial resources to defend it, and the will to face up to those who would silence you to suit their own agenda.
I don't have to like the new rules, I just have to live with them. At 40 you'd think I'd have learned to stop tilting at windmills.
Sucks to be me.
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Originally posted by Furious
A name based on an actuall WW2 organization in a WW2 flight simulator. The shock and horror of it all.
ALL LW BASED SQUADS MUST BE BANNED!!!
Now if the nick had be KillaJEW or DIEnigga or some equally assinine tripe, then of course HT should do something about it.
The rest is just silly.
F.
hmmm, so selective censorship is ok? it's a common perception, and one based on reality that SS(nazi) *was* all about jewkillas.
no one is singling out LW SQUADS - just certain names that *do* invoke some of the nastiest toejam about the german population in the 30's and 40's - nazis, if you will, regardless of whether it might be accurate or not; it's all about perceptions, and you nazi apologists need to start your own circle-jerk revisionist thread.
i give people credit for being able to distingush, for example, "soupnazi" from say... SSWaffen in terms of the implications behind the handle.
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I agree with you Curval. But you are a sensible person. It's the attention starved, media hungry, "Do you know who my father is" type person that I'm worried about.
The US is a very litigious society. People are always looking for a reason to sue, and there are plenty of attorneys who are more than happy to accomodate them.
Sure, free advertising is a great thing, but I don't know if this kind of media attention would be helpful to HTC.
At any rate, I doubt it would ever get to that level, but you always have to consider the worst case scenario.
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if people were offended by just a name then whats stopping them from getting offended by the fact that the default plane is a lw plane.
and what about the grandsons of the japanese that were put into pow camps in canada from getting offended by the mosquito and hurricane series planes (made in canada)
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Originally posted by vorticon
if people were offended by just a name then whats stopping them from getting offended by the fact that the default plane is a lw plane.
Total change of topic (probably a good thing, since this one is depressing me :) )
My "default plane" is "Illegal Number" or somesuch, and I end up with a P51D in the hanger.
Which default do you see?
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As long as the game is open to anyone and everyone that has an internet connection and doesn’t distinguish between age, race, sex, or nationality who gets to decide what is crass for a call sign and what is not?
Obviously anything that even remotely references the Nazi party or in general 90% of anything German during WWII brings up the “OMG – they didn’t” in people but is this being picked upon purely because of it’s notoriety? It seems the AH community has picked up this one reference as being the poster child for some sort of censorship of player names because they believe it to be personally offensive.
It’s pretty funny that this is jumped on when sometime within the last year, maybe longer, I’ve seen “polpot” (or something close to it) used. I can only assume that this ID is ok as it didn’t seem to draw anywhere near this attention. I myself found it offensive and continually looked at the player in amazement. I’m not even sure if the player had any idea who or what Polpot was.
I’m thinking we need to send Tipper a private invitation with a 6 month subscription to AH so that she can decide what ID’s should be banned and which are alright for use. That only represents what would be offensive to the US population though. We would need to also submit invitations to all other countries and all religious groups out there to make sure nothing is offensive to them as well.
What I would like to see is all aircraft visually modeled as a gray box, all icons should be in gray, no one should be able to win the war (we don’t want any losers). Actually three sides should be reduced to one, with killshooter on, disable all weapons system, or change it so ordinance discharge flower plumes, enable smoke only, then select in the mission planner the formation you would like to sightsee with.
Oh yeah, and change the “check-6” call to “Can’t we all just get along”.
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...and you nazi apologists need to start your own circle-jerk revisionist thread.
Are you implying that I am a nazi apologist?
I am all for a good circle jerk, don't get me wrong, but do not try to force some dumb assed nazi association on me.
I just don't have a problem with people playing the bad guy in video games.
F.
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The whole Political Correctness thing has pretty much made swiss cheese out of an individual's right to free speach unless that individual has the legal and financial resources to defend it, and the will to face up to those who would silence you to suit their own agenda.
Wrong. This is not an issue about free speech. Aces High is a private enterprise. Either you abide by their community standards or you are gone.
You are the one that seems to have a problem with free speech. Regardless of what HiTech's decision is on the handles in question, people have a right to discuss it on this board. If that discussion bothers you, don't read the thread.
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Originally posted by Furious
Are you implying that I am a nazi apologist?
I am all for a good circle jerk, don't get me wrong, but do not try to force some dumb assed nazi association on me.
I just don't have a problem with people playing the bad guy in video games.
F.
you leapt for the association with nazis with your "ban all LW squads" screech.
but that's ok, the average Luftweenie needs to stand by his nazi brethen, seig heil and all that, deustchland uber alles!!
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...
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Why don't we look at this from a business perspective.
Do the "Nazi" callsigns offend most players in the game?
Probably not. Do they bother me. Sure, a little, but not enough to make me pull my account.
But let's assume you have one, just one, grandson of a holocaust survivor playing AH.
What's going to happen if this person signs on, sees these callsigns, and is depely offended? Perhaps he or she will be upset enough to make a phone call to the JDL, or some other organization.
You know how the media, and activist groups just love to get their hands on stuff like this.
Worst case scenario, you've got protesters outside the HTC office, calling Dale and Co. Anti-semitic.
Now, I ask you; is it worth it to let someone have a callsign?
What about LW Squads? Wouldn't those be just as insulting as the abovementioned?
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Originally posted by Rude
What about LW Squads? Wouldn't those be just as insulting as the abovementioned?
naw, we've caved in to their revisionist history and are now only merely worried about the outright nazis.
:)
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Rude-
I suppose to some people, anything can be offensive. Neither really bother me enough to lose any sleep about it.
I suppose I am seperating the simulation of German hardware from the simulation of a Political organization.
It's hard to quantify, I know, but it just does not bother me.
I'm worried that someone will really take this to a level that could have a negative impact on our favorite pastime.
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i think HTC should have a "handle guidlines page " when you sign up , because people if they are new to this stuff really don't know what to put down as a handle. you know how it is , you are signing up and it say and you haven't even thought about a handle , duh, so you try to come up with something real quick, i mean look at what i got stuck with.
44MAG...er, i mean 'flower'
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Rude-
I suppose to some people, anything can be offensive. Neither really bother me enough to lose any sleep about it.
I suppose I am seperating the simulation of German hardware from the simulation of a Political organization.
It's hard to quantify, I know, but it just does not bother me.
I'm worried that someone will really take this to a level that could have a negative impact on our favorite pastime.
Muck,
How in the hell does this impact baseball ?
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Lol Furious, but I can't mention what was funny, don't wanna offend:D
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A few days ago.. I was shot down by a person with the call sign
MRdiddlyo.
You couldnt even say his name on channel or you got the big Cusword message.
I checked to see if he was a one time deal and looks like hes been in the game at least 2 months.. I find that very disturbing. My children may not understand the SSWaffen ideal, but they sure do pick up on a name like MRdiddlyo.
Where are your priorities?
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Originally posted by Oedipus
"What about LW Squads? Wouldn't those be just as insulting as the abovementioned?"
IMO if they started off as Hitlers body guard, ran the concentration camps, murdered masses of civilians and ran up one infamous bill of atrocities? Sure.
But to make sure I'm getting the gist, this is just a game where outward appearances are of no consequence so anything "goes" is the rule? Handles such as SSrUS MDSniper, TowaKilla, LHOswald, USAsucks, BushbytZ, SirhanX2, NRAasses, PopeKilla, AnthraxU, NaziPedos, DeadFetus, etc etc should be perfectly be acceptable?
I believe this to be my point regarding this thread......
HTC should run their business as THEY see fit and manage this crisis, while we the players, uhhh, well.......should play?
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Who u calling a callsign Nazi?
Fork you!
:D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Muck,
How in the hell does this impact baseball ?
You're an ass, Slappy!!!
:D
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in a country where you have signs that say crap like
"You MUST dismount your bike to cross street"
and
"Do not swim near falls"
and
"Do not open windows on bus"
and
"Do not hang any part of body out or said windows"
and
"Helmets must be worn by bicyclists and motorcyclists"
and
the incredible number of public places it is illegal for us to hang out on or in because of lawyers and other moronic responsibility avoiding americans
all of which are under penalty of law and fines, makes me believe we are not in a free country anyway (heil ashcroft, go ahead let the librarians tell the fbi agent what I like to read). Visit europe, see what real personal freedom is, then come back here and let htc do what they want to govern handle names.
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"don't wiz on the electric fence"
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"don't pet a burning dog"
Regards
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"You MUST dismount your bike to cross street"
and
"Do not swim near falls"
and
"Do not open windows on bus"
and
"Do not hang any part of body out or said windows"
and
"Helmets must be worn by bicyclists and motorcyclists"
these arnt done to stifle you "hanging out" there done because guess what happens when you go against thse things...well youll be pissin in a tube having sponge baths and eating jello for quite some time
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Originally posted by vorticon
these arnt done to stifle you "hanging out" there done because guess what happens when you go against thse things...well youll be pissin in a tube having sponge baths and eating jello for quite some time
Actually they are done to minimize liability when people DO them, get hurt, and they try to sue.
In America being a complete idiot is all to often like winning the lottery. There's a warning on most hot beverage cups now warning people the beverage is hot thanks to a lady who put a cup of fresh McDonalds coffee between her legs at a drive through, crushed the cup, and burned herself. The coffee was, actually QUITE hot, but the gist of the argument was the lack of warning on the cup indicating she might burn herself if she munched the cup between her legs while driving.
My personal opinion is it all boils down (heh) to a refusal of people to accept responsibility for their actions.
As always, I could well be wrong. Took quite a few of you to get it through my head that I'm not all that different than J_A_B. We're both extremists, I'm just on the opposite end of the spectrum. Pretty much leaves me out of the discussion trying to find a middle ground, now doesn't it? I'll just stick to poking fun and the Bish and Rook and hope they don't take me seriously, the rest of you get to work on a consensus for handling callsigns.
Good luck :)
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I think you missed the point.
The fact that we make being 'stupid' illegal is the problem.
The first time I was riding the train in france, a kid opened the door of the car and started swinging out. At first I was just amazed that nobody was doing anything. Then i realized that to the french, if that kid jumps out and dies there can be only three explanations:
1. Mom and dad were not doing their job.
2. The kid is terminally stupid.
3. The kid is stupid and the parents are just as bad.
How 1, 2, or 3 could possibly make the railroad responsible for the 'accident' is beyond me. In america that is not the case.
If I feel I am capable of driving my bike across a street with out getting off or wearing a helmet, all power to me. If I think I can hang out near a 30 drop which has no railing, all power to me.
The fact that we pass laws against stupidity only makes it worse. In other countries they do not do this. Its rather nice. You can do things like
Have a beer while standing in a garden of national landmark.
Stand next to a 300 foot drop off near the top of a 11th century castle without a guard rail or an armed guard standing next to you.
instead, we allow ourselves to be told what we can and cant do cause 'were to shhtuu shhhtuu shhhtuu shhhtuuuupid'.
YET!!!!!!!
we will argue about our right to use which ever handle we choose....
lamo....
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Originally posted by Puck
When I worked at the University we had Parking Nazis, in AH we seem to have Callsign Nazis. Self appointed guardians of tase and offense who have declared themselves the arbiter of appropriate callsigns.
I do think the self-righteous Callsign Nazis are more annoying than anything you can cram into 8 characters.
But then again that's just my opinion.
I'm sure your ignorance might make life rosey for you, but there are a lot of people that get offended by those that try to glorify something that was so vile and evil. Here's a post from Culero that he posted on another of these 'Nazi' threads that pretty much sums it up. Before you try to downplay Culero's post, he was the head AWAR (GameOp) for Air Warrior before it went down, so he pretty much knows what he's talking about, unlike some here.
When I was at Air Warrior, this exact topic came up, and my initial reaction was exactly the same as yours, popeye. It makes eminent good sense, on a logical and unemotional level. I objected to policy there that prohibited this type of in-game ID (any with Nazi associations), both because of what you expressed here, and the "free speech" issue.
However, during the ensuing discussions, I was convinced to change my opinion by listening to players from Germany and other parts of Europe. Just as blitz pointed out in this thread, Nazi associations and symbols are viewed with MUCH more seriousness than here in the USA. People there, for their own reasons, even see fit to make this kind of thing illegal. By an overwhelming majority, German players expressed to me the desire to have these things banned. Many other Europeans said they felt the same.
It was out of my respect for the feelings of the German and other European members of the game community that I changed my mind. Sometimes you have to balance one desire against another. I decided that my feelings about "free speech" and "a game atmosphere that involves killing" weren't as important as the profound bad feelings Nazi associations created in the heart of a large group of fellow players.
Not that it mattered much what me or anyone else thought, moggy was in charge and he delighted in
stomping on anything Nazi.
culero (not saying AH has to mimic AW, just saying)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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i'm offended by the handle "blitz' it reminds me of "blitzkrieg" the war where countries were over run and innocent people were killed, i want it changed.
flower
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Originally posted by john9001
i'm offended by the handle "blitz' it reminds me of "blitzkrieg" the war where countries were over run and innocent people were killed, i want it changed.
flower
I'm offended by the name 'john', it reminds me of 'johnson' which is slang for a particular part of the male anotomy. I feel is it offensive to the female community as it could be considered sexual harrassment!
I demand it be banned!
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Yeah? I'm offended by "tronski". It was way too addictive an arcade game. I only got a coupla bucks a week allowance back then, and instead of buying gummy bears I wasted it all on your stupid game.
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You guys dont get it. It's OK if the US is liberal and u dont get offended by anything but for many Euros and Russian people its plain disgusting. So if a newbie lets say from the netherlands comes in here and see those callsigns what is his first impression: he would ask himself if there are Nazis in here, if this is a Nazi game. You dont believe it? Ask my brother as he first saw Mr. SSWaffen.
Very very bad reputation for AH.
OTOH there is surely a difference between the spawn of the most horrific Nazi ideology (i.e. Waffen-SS) and flying the planes in a german Geschwader like the KG 51.
You have to know that it's not important if u are OK with those callsigns. Cause many of us euros are not, be so kind and stop this nazi crap. I won't and can't accept this!
BTW The badest thing is that some people think they could make silly jokes about the feelings of other people. Get mature and try to accept the opinion of others.
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I'm offended by the name Duedel, because I don't draw very well.
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I don't enjoy this thread and hate to add something serious to this discussion, but I will:
The Bf-109G2 has swastikas on the wings.
I believe that would make AH illegal to download in Germany and subject to blocking by ISP's. It may even be illegal to have installed on your hard disk. Can some European members, or anyone more knowledgeable than me, confirm that?
If that's true, I hope HTC finds a sensible solution to keep this game fun and uncontroversial. It is a game.
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After posting this, I now realize that I should not have posted it. Instead of erasing it, I've kept it so the following posts (highlighting my stupidity) will make sense to readers.
I didn't say it was banned in Europe. I didn't know that color was a determining factor. I can read. I know the religious historical roots. I only asked for confirmation and said nothing with an authoritative air. I have been reminded again, just how dangerous a keyboard can be.
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S!
AcesHigh's Bf109G-2 is NOT banned in Europe because it is having these BLUE "things" on the wing and fuselage. It is user's discretion to use or not to use the game I guess. Any person who can read knows the difference of this BLUE one to the BLACK tilted one used by a lunatic person some 60 years ago.
For me these Luftwaffe squadrons are not offensive. They are part of our common history. It is just that some players in some games use actual names of real persons and might behave sub-par causing people to connect the names with something negative. This annoys me. Kind like someone acted like a jerk using a name of a known person...
IMO HTC has done great work including Finnish Air Force G-2 with original markings and not with the post-war roundels. HTC knows the history behind them and I appreciate that. My 2 cents!
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I hate this thread too... I hate all what the NAzis stood for AND what the stand for today..But the swastika is just a symbol and gos much further back than the nazi regime..Unfortunalty its is a symbol associated with terror, and lets not forget in this modern day ,symbols of terror are everywhere..
im not sure about it being illegal in Germany.. but in UK people are free to do what they want. i for one would make it illegal to be an active racist..
As for these people who give themselves Nazi handles are most likely kids who know nothing of history or bigots.. HTC should just change there handles without warning it cant be hard , then send them a new password and say now dont be silly we want nothing of this here..
as for politicaly correctness in AH,, this will never happen people will say things that they think are innocent but will deeply hurt someone else... for example i heard on channel one last night that the UK used car bombs.. now this might have been a flippent remark by someone who thought it was funny but to me it was not..i was in manchester when the bomb went off there and i was scared toejamless..
Just think before you type, this is a GAME not a political platform for the UNINFORMED..
thank you to all the normal people out there..:)
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Originally posted by Nash
Yeah? I'm offended by "tronski". It was way too addictive an arcade game. I only got a coupla bucks a week allowance back then, and instead of buying gummy bears I wasted it all on your stupid game.
(http://www.calarts.edu/~nstrum/macmame/reviews/tronrev/tronjpgs/tronflyr.jpg)
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I vote for htc to automatically change there names to....
lazs
lazer
laz2
ripsnort
hehehehe
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so I suppose we should ban this also.. I mean it looks kinda nazi-ish....
(http://www.nick-tucker.com/eag.jpg)
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Originally posted by fullback
I don't enjoy this thread and hate to add something serious to this discussion, but I will:
The Bf-109G2 has swastikas on the wings.
Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think the crosses on the 109 wings are swastikas...just as the crosses on a Fokker Dr-I's wings are not swastikas.
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very true
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this has been discussed over and over , the G-2 has Finland markings that predate the nazis use of the swastika, finland was using that marking before there was even a nazi party.
the LW used the black cross ( german marking) on the wings, ( the proper place for national markings) and only used the swastika (black) on the tail.
the G-2 has finland markings (blue on white background )swastikas on the wings .
44MAG
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Ive seen some pretty insensitive handles around though. Something names ARE offensive :eek:
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... that the kind of control some people would like to exercise over the (admittedly distasteful and provacative) naming preference of others is precisely the kind of control that the National Socialists, other European fascist regimes and the totalitarian communist regimes employed on their citizens? Renaming things to make them sound like they fit more in line with their political philosophy. Outlawing thoughts. Outlawing words and concepts associated with the "other" side's political philosophy?
And, for what its worth, who says it should be illegal to offend someone? Are we all such total wimps that we can't deal with a little offense from others without trying to build a consensus of other people to gang up on the offenders?
Why get so worked up about what might be going on in someone elses head?
Words don't hurt me - virtual cannon does, though! :)
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Guys, since I don't fly AH, I have a question of verification. Are these callsigns of a historic german nature, or are they "doodz" callsigns? Please I don't mean doodz as a slam towards any game, just as as a name for a callsign that isn't historic.
Callsigns in gaming used to be all about the person they represent, now they seem to be about shocking fellow players. I play Day of Defeat quite a bit, and see all types of vile crap as callsigns, but I will say I have to make an effort to remember that there aren't any rules out ther on the net. It sounds like you guys have rules in AH, which I think is great, and within reason and control of the owners of AH. We have a few in WBIII, but seems to be just a few. It's funny, Rip brought up -pnus-, which when pronounced out loud, man I gotta laugh. Pnus's defense was that it meant "part number unites states", which is a pretty good laugh too, but also almost a valid defense, if you didn't really realize how much rise it gets out of people, no pun intended.
My other point of the arguement must start off with a disclaimer. I am not a nazi sympathizer nor a nazi apologist in the least. One thing to remember tho is that a nazi was almost always german, but a german wasn't always a Nazi. To it's credit, both the Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine had alot of non Nazi party higher ups and distinguishable pilots/sailors. They didn't fight for Hitler, or the Nazi party, but fought as a patriot might for his country. Names like Galland and Molders and Marseiles were proffesional soldiers, ardent religious catholics/christians, and not party to or aware of the holocaust. It is VERY easy to group those few into the Nazi fold, but very unfair to. If someone used names like Himmler, or Hitler, ya then I would have problems too. We used to have a guy in WBs that would get on the arena channel and yell that he was here to kill all facists. It may be funny the first coupla times, but then he got abusive with it, and said all LW squads were facists. It took the fun out of it right away. He was told vocally by many that he should really rethink what he was doing, which he did, and the problem went away.
Maybe, if you are having that same kinda problem, the same treatment might help you guys. Let them know what is bothering you, without freaking out at them. No one likes to be the arena pariah.
Good luck with it.
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Well said Hedu.
Look nobody in their right mind is pro nazi. If you play a game to fufill some personal Nazi wet dream, you've got problems. If your offended by every little thing you don't like, and think everyone should be as enlightened as you, you've got a problem.
There were Jagdgeschwaders, before the Nazi party, there were Jagdgeschwaders during the Nazi party, and the German Luftwaffe has Jagdgeschwaders today. Whats the big deal with squadron names and why must you refer to guys flying in Luftwaffe squads Nazi's? I see it happen many times in the CT, if your flying Axis during an ETO event somebody will log on and say something like Hello Nazi's. There are very few if any countrys that have had clean hands through out all of history. Name a country, and at some point in history they have attacked, raped, and pillaged. It may have been over religion, territory, racial or for greed. We're all decendants of vile cruel bastages no matter where we live or who we are. If it's been pointed out to hitech, it's his place to allow certain names or not allow them. However theres enough people on high horses with this subject that we could mount a hell of a calvary charge. When a guy has an offensive callsign, ignoring it will make more noise then the whining he is trolling for.
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hedu , why don't you come fly with us? you can try it for free
44MAG
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John, I fly too many sims as it is right now.:) So many to learn and remember, I don't think I have flown IL-2 in 3 weeks. Just moving from WB 2.77 to WBIII was a headache.
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Originally posted by Löwe
If your offended by every little thing you don't like, and think everyone should be as enlightened as you, you've got a problem.
It's all about personnal feeling : I won't qualify this issue as "little"
you can it's your right but I don't agree on the "little" qualifier
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These threads not in OT should be deleted - it is completely ridiculous and only serves to give attention to people that deserves none. Just to clarify, and there certainly seems to be some confusion on this, this game IS NOT real life.
If you don't like how someone plays, or how they name themselves (oddly these two qualities seem to go hand in hand somehow), simply don't play with them. To engage these players on the board just gives them a place to get the attention they can not earn in the game.
We have Fighter, Attack, and Vehicle score categories now. But, Judging from some folks online vs. board time or perforormance, it would seem we need a 4th category to score how some prefer to compete- Bulletin Board Score.
This is all fine and good - but the BB Arena should be in OT where it belongs.
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Ok I take offence to anyone using an American Fighter squadron name because in WW2 American friendly fire killed english soldiers and so ban them
I take offence to anyone using an RAF squadron because they friendly fired some americans. Ban RAF squads
Italian squads? i dont like armani suits because they make my cheap suits look , well......cheap...ban them
I take offence to anyone using the names of LW pilots because that obviously means they are trying to promote the 2nd coming of the 3rd reich and obviously have some kind of evil plan to re encarnate hitler.Ban them too
I dont like names like pnus,banana,buttok etc etc because i have a big problem with any part of the human body being rediculed!!! its gods creation and as such should be respected!ban them
I want world peace and the first step is to CLEANSE HTC or the whole company should be banned from AH :)
Darth vader is obviously a representation of all that is evil in mankind and therefore Star wars should be banned, luke skywalker is obviously a warlock using arcane magic and as such should be banned.
Corn flakes taste crap and should be banned
Ok i want all these things done by tomorrow if not yesterday and pay attention because tomorrow all these demands will be changed...........
Puck , and anyone else who has a problem with people playing a game who pay the same money you/we all do........
WHY DONT YOU ALL JUST DRY UP ! GIVE US SOME PEACE AND QUIET.
unless the name is specifically aimed at someone or somebody on a PERSONAL level its none of your business.
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HEIL HITLER!!!
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Is the second coming of the 3rd reich the 4th reich or the 6th reich?
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fatty , i think it would be reich 3.1
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Originally posted by hazed-
Corn flakes taste crap and should be banned
Hmmm........... what color are the bannanas you put in your cornflakes?:D
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Originally posted by Hornet
Wrong. This is not an issue about free speech. Aces High is a private enterprise. Either you abide by their community standards or you are gone.
You are the one that seems to have a problem with free speech. Regardless of what HiTech's decision is on the handles in question, people have a right to discuss it on this board. If that discussion bothers you, don't read the thread.
I ever tell you I was and am very proud to have been your squaddy?
Consider yourself told then. :)
Tex
what's wizard up to?
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Brrrrrrriiinnnnng.
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Hi Ma.
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Yeh Ma, some Earthlings have no sensativity at all. Most are O.K. though.
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Yeh Ma, some earthlings get real silly at times. Most of them are O.K. too.
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Yeh Ma, clean underwear every day.
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Call you again tomorrow,
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Bye
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I ever tell you I was and am very proud to have been your squaddy?
heya Tex, consider the reverse true as well bud :)
Wiz is allright, still does RC flying, we keep in touch...I bug him every once and awhile to get in here. Funny to think how long ago this hobby started for us, but that's whats so cool about it. Take care man.
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Originally posted by Biggles
Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think the crosses on the 109 wings are swastikas...just as the crosses on a Fokker Dr-I's wings are not swastikas.
The Bf109G2 does have (unlike the other 109's in the game) swastika like crosses, however they are not actual swastikas. They're Norse Rune crosses (blue on white) used by the Finnish (who fought the Russians and were supported by the Germans). These crosses are not swastikas and have no connection to the Nazis, however they may seem to be by the historically uneducated.
The callsign "Nazi" is of course distasteful in the extreme, because we now identify the Nazis with the likes of Hitler, Himmler and Hess. However I feel I must point out that 99.9% of all Nazis were good, hardworking people who loved their kids. National Socialism (NAtional SoZIalismus) is a political ideal just like Capitalism and Communism, not a pact with the Devil. Stalin and his bunch of goons massacred millions of ethnic Jews in Russia (almost as many as Hitler did in Europe). Does that mean that most Communists are evil? Certainly not. The Nazis are a thing of the past. Neo-Nazis on the other hand are the scum of the Earth.
The SS was a huge organization with many branches of service. The Waffen-SS was not responsible for the Holocaust. They were the armed service branch, highly trained and devoted to the Nazi cause. They were misled, corrupted and in the end sacrificed to the whims of the Evil that was Hitler-Germany. However most of them were just devoted soldiers of "The Fatherland". Those who survived the war had to live with the fact that they believed in, and fought for a regime that stood for what? Auschwitz, Buchenwald ... the list is too long to post here. Those who were responsible for the Holocaust were the SS-Allgemeine, the Political wing of the SS, and SD (Sicherheit Dienst) the Security Service. These guys were the "real" Nazis in the context represented in this thread and generally in conversations.
As you can see from my signature I chose the name of a LW pilot as my nick. Gunter Scholz survived the war, and to my knowledge is still alive. A bunch of friends and I were planning on starting a LW sqd, 7JG5, which was stationed here in my hometown during WWII. Scholz served with that sqd. I hope to honor this aerial warrior by assuming his virtual identity in this WWII simulation. Rest assured, I do not sympathize in any way with Nazism or the regime Mr. Scholz fought for, as I am sure he does not either.
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oh boy where do i start... well i think you guys are wasting way too much energy addressing the infuence of nazis in AH. mr. sswafen or gasjew or whatever his name is probably is not a card carrying party member but more likely your common everyday, garden variety ignorate amazinhunk. or someone who likes to instagate people into geting very upset. in that case you are falling for his roadkill. now i can understand why some people would get upset by swastikas and ss runes since they were used as symbols by evil men bent on destroying the world and everything in it they could not control. im sure, if there is a hell, hitler is there getting a big, fat pineapple shoved up his bellybutton for eternity. but my point is that these dorks love to get people upset just like the real nazis do. and on the internet you cant find out where they live and shoot there porch lights out, kill there pets, slash there tires or any of the usual prcedures done by the unwelcoming commity of your local community to get them to move on someplace else. i have friends around spokane,WA who were there when the nazis and the satanic cults moved in and those amazinhunks soon found there houses on fire in the middle of the night with all the doors and windows screwed shut. i here it was quite motivating. and law enforcement investigation of the arsons were very slipshod. but the problem is what do you do to run them out of the ah community? and where do you draw the line at? at sswafen or flynazi or gasjew? seems to me that german stuff doesnt have anything to do with the nazis. why cant somebody at htc nicely tell these guys to find a name that isnt in poor taste and move on. in my opinion this whole thread( my post included) is a big waste of time. i think if half the guys who posted on this thread emailed there gripes to htc they would put a stop to it. but thats my opinion. thank you for your time.
ed (bigsky)
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Waffen SS atrocities (http://www.wssob.com/atrocities.html)
Waffen SS Combat reputation (http://www.wssob.com/combat.html)
"...They are late or fall asleep on duty. They are court-marshalled but are told they can escape punishment by volunteering for the Special Commandos. Well, these commandos...are murder commandos. When these young men realize what they are being asked to do and refuse to take part in mass murder, they are told the orders are given them as a form of punishment. Either they can obey and take that punishment or they can disobey and be shot...By such methods decent young men are turned into criminals."
SS-Obergruppenführer Georg Keppler
Heres all you need to know.
Waffen SS (http://www.wssob.com/intro.html)
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Well, Wotan, I don't know if your accusing the Waffen-SS or defending them, but I just want to make a few comments:
The War in the East: Savagery beyond comprehension. No quarters were asked nor given by either side. The civilians suffered greatly under both German as well as Soviet control. Many of the mass graves of civilians as well as soldiers that were blamed on the Germans, were after the fall of the Soviet Union identified as Soviet crimes. The War in the East will probably stand for all eternity as the most barbaric and horrific war ever.
The War in the West: As the article reads, war is an extremely emotional experience. War crimes were committed by both sides, but on a miniscule scale compared to those on the Eastern Front. Those crimes committed by the Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht were investigated by the German military leadership. Just like those crimes committed by the Allies were investigated by their leadership.
Anyways ... No WWII military unit can say they have a spotless record. The Waffen-SS sure has plenty of spots in my opinion, but they were not responsible for the Holocaust. Using a nick like "waffen-ss" or any other Nazi-connected nick is of course distasteful, and can be offensive to some. It's up to HTC to do something if they wish, but I don't think that LW units should come under this category. "gasjew" or other nicks which directly address the atrocities committed should be banned, and the user should also be banned IMO.
Just my two cents ...
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Well, Wotan, I don't know if your accusing the Waffen-SS or defending them, but I just want to make a few
I am doing neither, the facts are clear on their own.
WAFFEN-SS HOLOCAUST PARTICIPATION
Many Waffen-SS apologists, either former members or postwar revisionist historians, argue that the Waffen-SS did not participate in the Holocaust. There is some truth to their position. By 1944, the Waffen-SS had grown to 900,000 men, with the great majority of them fighting or destined to fight in front-line combat. Certainly hundreds of thousands of these men as individuals did not know of Hitler's "Final Solution" nor played a part in it. Although Reichführer-SS Himmer was unquestionable evil, he was not illogical - he would not waste well-trained, well-armed troops on killing operations or guarding concentration camps when substandard troops were available and while Allied armies battered the shrinking frontiers of the Reich.
However, these veterans and historians are incorrect when speaking of the Waffen-SS as an organization. The Waffen-SS was complicit in the Holocaust and the extent of its guilt must be revealed in a careful response several questions:
Did the Waffen-SS materially participate in the Holocaust (i.e. the deliberate killing of Jewish people)?
The answer is yes:
Poland, Sept. 19, 1939: An SS soldier serving in Panzerdivision Kempf in the SS-Artillerie Regiment, along with a German Army Feldgendarmerie, shoot 50 Jews in a synagogue. The SS soldier is acquitted on the grounds "As an SS man, he was particuarly sensitive to the sight of Jews...and thus acted quite unpremeditatedly in a spirit of youthful enthusiasm.*"
Poland 1939: SSTK division implicated in killing Jews**
April 1941: Das Reich assists Einsatzgruppen in killing 920 Jews near Minsk***
Wiking murders 600 Jews as "reprisal for Soviet cruelties."***
August 8, 1941 SS-Kallverie Regiment massacres 1,950 Jews at Pinsk.****
Skanderbeg troops place 281 Albanian Jews on railway cars to concentration camps*****
**** Paul Wilson, Himmler's Calvary: The Equestrian SS, 1930-45 (Schiffler, 2000) pg. 155. Postwar the Soviets sentenced SS-Kallverie Regiment officer Franz Magill to 5 years in prision for the murder of 5,254 Jews in 1941.
***** Kosovo: A Short History pg. 310, citing T-354, reel 160 frame 3805943 of the US National Archives.
Did the Waffen-SS troops guard the concentration camps?
The answer is yes.
Martin Wirth, guard at Helmbrechts, a satellite camp of Flossenbürg KZ, estimated that of the 54 concentration camp guards in his unit, at least three were volksdeutsche drafted into the Waffen-SS. Martin Wirth was himself a Rumanian volksdeutsche, drafted in 1943 into the Prinz Eugen division but declared unfit for medical duty and reassigned as a concentration camp guard.*
Sonderkommando Dirlewanger (a.k.a the 36th SS Division) spent at least a portion of 1941 guarding the Jewish Ghetto and "Lipowa Camp" at Lubin, Poland.** The unit also operated under the command of SS-Gruppenführer Odilio Globocnik, commander of the "Jewish Camp at Dzikow." Globocnik tasked Dirlewanger's unit with "special activities" - a Nazi euphamism for killing Jews.**
The Totenkopfwachsturmbanne units were considered part of the Waffen-SS. They carried the standard Waffen-SS Soldbuch and received replacements from convalesent SS soldiers from front line units.****
* Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners pg. 336.
** Ibid. pg. 299 "Supplementing the German personnel who ran and staffed the camp were, successively, contingents of ethnic German paramilitary units, ethnic Germans in the Waffen-SS, members of Kommando Dirlewanger, and finally Ukrainians."
*** The Cruel Hunters footnote #63. It is often claimed that only the poor-quality Waffen-SS troops participated in war crimes and/or the Holocaust while the "elite" Waffen-SS troops were above all that. Unfortunatly the reality was much more grey. For example in August 1940 the SS-FHA transferred 4 NCO's from the Germania replacement battalion to Sonderkommando Dirlewanger. It is likely that these 4 Das Reich NCO's served as guards in the Lubin ghetto. (source The Cruel Hunters pg. 56)
**** See Stein The Waffen-SS. Stein estimates that 10,000 Waffen-SS men worked in organizations under the SS-WVHA, including the concentration camp system. Perry Pierik's From Leningrad to Berlin: Dutch Volunteers in the German Waffen-SS on pg. 24 quotes Wolfgang Solsky's (author of Die Ordung des Terrors: das Konzentrationslazer) figure of 55,000 SS worked in the camp system, of which 10,000 were Waffen-SS
Sadly, there are few documented cases of SS officers refusing to carry out orders vis a vis the Holocaust. One of the few known instances is the case of HSSPF leader and SS-Brigadeführer Karl Zech, who refused an order to confine Jews to the Krakau ghetto. He was dismissed from the SS in March 1944 and committed suicide a month later.
Did the Waffen-SS indirectly participate in the Holocaust?
The answer is yes.
...The whole SS did not do the killings, but the whole SS knew of them."
Robert Lewis Koehl, The Black Corps, pg. 425 (see bibliography)
Waffen-SS Officers as Holocaust perpetuators
The Waffen-SS has been big on claiming it had nothing to do with the Holocaust. But it had alot to do with folks who did. Many of the worst Holocaust criminals held Waffen-SS rank. Indeed, in researching the bios of individual SS officers the evidence of Holocaust complicity begins to pile up:
Take the case of SS-Gruppenführer Odilio Globocnik the man appointed by Himmler to oversee the genocide of Polish Jewry and administer the concentration camps. As HSSPF Trieste in July 1944, the 24th Waffen-Gebirgs (Karstjäger) Division der SS was under his control. Recent research indicates that Globocnik may have served for a brief period in 1939 as a staff officer in the SSVT - for further information please visit the Axis Biographical Research website.
SS-Gruppenfürer Bruno Streckenbach commanded the 19th SS Division commander in 1944, but in 1939 he was the RSHA Amtchef (bureau chief for the SS security service) in the Generalgouvernement of Poland, with Einsatzgruppen units under his direct command.
Kurt Becher, ordinance officer for the SS-Kavallerie Regiment, was sent to Hungary in 1944 by Himmler on a special assignment to procure horses & equipment. There is evidence to indicate that Becher may have assisted Adolf Eichmann's (who also, according to Höhne's The Order of the Death's Head served in the SS-VT for a brief stint) efforts to "trade" Jews. In 1945, Becher was assigned to be a special commissioner for all concentration camps.*
SS-Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl, commander of the SS-WVHA, which administered both the SS economic enterprises and the concentration camp system, also held the rank of "General der Waffen-SS und Polizei**" Pohl was found guilty at the Nuremberg war crimes trials and executed by the Allies.
Another example of a nefarious SS officer with a Waffen-SS rank would be SS-Oberstgruppenführer Karl Wolff, whose wartime career included developing death camps in Poland and surrender negotiations with the Allies on the belaf of Himmler in 1945. Wolff wrote an SS transportation official about his "Special joy now that 5,000 members of the Chosen People are going to Triblinka every day.***"
SS-Standartenführer Joachim Peiper is famous for his military exploits. A lesser known aspect of his career is is staff work as an adjudant for Himmler. Part of his job was arranging meetings between Himmler and concentration camp commanders.
Totenkopf division originally staffed with concentration camp personnel. Divisional CO SS-Obergruppenführer Theodor "Papa" Eicke created the regulations governing concentration camp prisoners.*
Up to 1,500 Waffen-SS troops transferred to the Einsatzgruppen as a disciplinary measure:
"...They are late or fall asleep on duty. They are court-marshalled but are told they can escape punishment by volunteering for the Special Commandos. Well, these commandos...are murder commandos. When these young men realize what they are being asked to do and refuse to take part in mass murder, they are told the orders are given them as a form of punishment. Either they can obey and take that punishment or they can disobey and be shot...By such methods decent young men are turned into criminals."
SS-Obergruppenführer Georg Keppler**
Waffen-SS Training & Replacement Units used to put down the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising.
* Soldiers of Destruction
** Stein, pg. 263
Did the Waffen-SS materially benefit from the Holocaust?
The answer is yes.
much Waffen-SS clothing and equipment made from Jewish slave labor
confiscated Jewish winter clothing given to SSTK troops*
Soldiers of Destruction pg. 217. primary source BAMA: "part of the shipments came from the huge SS warehouse of confiscated goods in Riga controlled by the HSSPF for Northern Russia." Doubtless some of this clothing formerly belonged to Jewish people. (since Riga contained a sizeable prewar Jewish population)
Was the Waffen-SS indirectly associated with the Holocaust?
The answer is yes.
Concentration camp personnel or Waffen-SS, all server under the same leader (Himmler)
It's a question of ideology. Were the commanders of the Waffen-SS not committed National Socialists? If you asked SS-Oberstgruppenfüuhrer ('Sepp') Dietrich, Eicke, SS-Brigaführer Hermann Otto Fegelein, etc. "Are you willing to implement measures to implement Der Führer "Final Solution to the Jewish Question?" - what do you think their answer would be?
Their answer would be "yes"
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cont.........
Ultimately, the Nüemberg War Crimes trial was entirely correct in labeling the SS a "criminal organization."
The Waffen-SS is a disquieting paradox for the Western mind. It was an elite military formation in the Western model - corageous and sometimes chivalrous. It was simultaneously bloodthirsty, cruel and a willing participant in Hitler's Weltanschaung*
To deny the role of the Waffen-SS in war crimes is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of the Waffen-SS as even Waffen-SS soldiers understood it. The purpose of the Waffen-SS was to impose and protect Hitler's world view on the greater European continient - nothing less.
* German philosophical term meaning "way at looking at the world"
[/QUOTE]
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Than let's leave it at that. The Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the Holocaust (most Germans were indirectly involved). No one, least of all me, deny they committed war-crimes, as did elements of most ground units during the war.
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I cant believe Hazed doesnt like Armani:confused:
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LOL! This has gotten out of had! I had'nt seen this post until just now LOL! Puck you are an amazing as*hole, you know that. Typical though... Americans always think they know everything lol! The sad part, I am an American and dont like subjects like this. I know "Puck" started this because my stupid little callsign, Puck as other members have said here, ITS A $*#% WWII SIM! What do you want for callsigns? Allies1 vs. allies2??? Thats kind of dumb! I also got an E-mail from skuzzy at HiTech, and If I get another I'm reporting Hitech to the Better Buisiness bureau. I'm tired of this BS and tired of ignorant $*@3's like Puck over there. Damn... Puck sounds alot like f u c k? Could I ban his callsign because I find it offensive? For the 3rd time GROW UP!!!! Damn.....
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Oh God~! Please dont start in on the nazi symbols on the planes! Come on! ITS A STUPID SYMBOL!!! Hmmm.. there happened to be a lot of racist BS in America 200-300 years ago and alot of killing, could I get rid of the American flag on the allie planes too.....?? See how stupid this is!?!?
.....Guess not
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Originally posted by TheFlyingNazi
Oh God~! Please dont start in on the nazi symbols on the planes! Come on! ITS A STUPID SYMBOL!!! Hmmm.. there happened to be a lot of racist BS in America 200-300 years ago and alot of killing, could I get rid of the American flag on the allie planes too.....?? See how stupid this is!?!?
.....Guess not
There's still a lot of racist BS in America ... and a lot of killing.
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Originally posted by hazed-
unless the name is specifically aimed at someone or somebody on a PERSONAL level its none of your business.
Unfortunately, most of people against to whom is that name aimed are dead! Do you realise it?
czpetr
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Originally posted by TheFlyingNazi
I also got an E-mail from skuzzy at HiTech, and If I get another I'm reporting Hitech to the Better Buisiness bureau. Damn.....
Heheh
Youre going down.... :cool:
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Excuse me for butting in, but ahh didn't Gunman26/42 have "Bring the A10 to AH" or something like that in his sig?
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Originally posted by hazed-
Italian squads? i dont like armani suits because they make my cheap suits look , well......cheap...ban them
Well, we dont like Armani's stuff as well, so dont take offence ;)
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ALL LW BASED SQUADS MUST BE BANNED!!!
and as per Allied order, a No fly zone will be setup with a alt cap of no higher than 3000 AGL!... and a radius of 5 miles from fields...
to be effective ASAP!!:D
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ya know its gettin bad when ya see a "BenAflec" :rolleyes: