Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Max on October 08, 2002, 10:44:56 AM
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Thinking about parting with $270 USD to buy a Cougar HOTAS..."the last stick you'll ever buy"?
Think again.
After 3 months mine has developed a terrible spiking problem. The center intersection of the X & Y (roll & pitch) axis won't hold stable and spikes the application badly. I've spent most of yesterday trying to fix the problem. The only thing that worked was pushing the damping slider all the way up on both X & Y...which rendered the stick so unresponsive as to be unplayable.
Turns out this is a known issue. My original post to the general forum at Cougar World went unanswered. Then a squaddie pointed me to another thread where this issue is being discussed. The problem is the "POT" ---potentiometer...or sumpin like that...it sux. Modification kits are being developed by some of the Cougar owner gurus...at additional cost, of course. TM ducking the issue...or so it seems.
My advice, if you own a Cougar and haven't yet developed the spike problem, count yer blessings. If you have, it's gonna cost you MORE money to fix the "last stick you'll ever own."
DmdMax <-- who knows this thread belongs in "Hardware/Software" forum but thought you all might wanna know what I do now.
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Sorry to hear you have problems with your stick but I can assure you this is the exception and not the norm judging by the happy users posting at Cougar World. There have been some problems and it's a shame you seem to have got a bad one if the pot is indeed causing the spike but it's hardly a case to make a blanket statement as if this is the norm.
There have been a few answers to your posts in the hardware/software forum, did you try calibrating in Windows? if you have then that may be the problem. Have you tried resettign the stick in the Foxy application and also perhaps reflashing and recalibrating within Foxy? You also posted you found my profile a little complex. If you'd like to mail me at revvin@ntlworld.com I'd be happy to create a profile to your own wishes, the macro is done so it's just a case of re-assigning the buttons on a new .tmj file.
I hope you can resolve the problem..good luck!
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Well, I would second that as well. I've had spiking problems as well, however, I took the pot apart, cleaned all the crap out of them, put a fine dusting of dry graphite lub into them and they have been working fine now.
However, I totally agree that for 270 clams, I shouldn't have to take this thing apart EVER, let alone after a couple of months of use.
Its easy to take the pots apart and clean them, just takes a little patience.
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umm, what is the warranty on your cougar? 90 days or more? ifluff'n it's more... get a new stick from TM! If it's a known problem with a bad POT, then they owe you a new stick if said stick is still under warranty. If TM only has a 90 day warranty... hell, that won't ever get me to buy a cougar over a saitek or CH stick.
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fwiw, TM has always had a crappy POT issue, even with their other sticks...
used to love the TM Topgun sticks, but got tired of the POTS going to crap, as well as the wiring chaffing and eventually breaking.
i'll not consider TM for quite a while.
i do wonder, however, why not many, if any, joysticks use a pinky toggle button these days... imho, that was the one feature i liked best abt TM sticks.
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Originally posted by Modas
Its easy to take the pots apart and clean them, just takes a little patience.
How does one clean the pots?
DmdMax
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Shane, the Saitek X36 and newer X45 has a pinkie button. You can set it to be a toggle or a regular button (mine is set to numkey 5 for looking up at the moment, tho I could set it as a shift and get the same thing accomplished by programming the shifts for the view hat, but I was lazy and went the quick route).
word of warning. as of right now, the little rotaries can't be programmed under Win XP. Supposedly will be fixed by the end of the month.
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If you need to clean the potentiometers in the Cougar, there is a link on COugarworld giving step by step instructions.
I would avoid simply spraying the pots with cleaner because it does not remove the particles, only displaces them.
The best method is to open the pots and use a foam tipped swab to wipe the carbon trail of the pot, and then the copper contact of the wiper arm. Use a drop of WD40 as the cleaner/lubricant.
Mine spiked horribly about 1 month after having it. Did the cleaning, and it has been spot on perfect ever since.
And yes, it should be the last stick you will ever buy. For those of you who buy $40 sticks, how many have you bought in the last 5 years? 1 per year at $40 would be $200...
I had my F16 stick for about 7 years before I bought the Cougar. I expect the Cougar will last just as long, if not longer. Heck, my F16 stick is still in use by a squadie too
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Kinda expensive ($125) but there is/will be a third party kit to replace the stick pots with hall sensors (magnetic). I'll post an email address if anyone is interested.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Kinda expensive ($125) but there is/will be a third party kit to replace the stick pots with hall sensors (magnetic). I'll post an email address if anyone is interested.
Please do.
Hmmm...$270+$125 = 13.82 Saitek Cyborgs
DmdMax
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Never had one spike on my MS PP1. It's seen already 2 years of hard use and works like brand new.
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Originally posted by DMax
How does one clean the pots?
DmdMax
It varies, depends how mechanically inclined ya are :D
Seriously, it took probably 20 minutes for each pot. The biggest thing was getting them apart without snapping off the little posts that hold the POT together. A small exacto knife blade worked well.
I tried spraying the POTS directly with wd-40 as was suggested in a couple of post at Cougarworld, but the fix didn't last long. Taking them apart and cleaning out the crap that TM put in them for lub, was the best fix. Have'nt had any problems since
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Originally posted by Modas
Taking them apart and cleaning out the crap that TM put in them for lub, was the best fix.
Just a small point. TM didn't put the crap lub in these things. The pot manufacturer is CTS. THEY put the garbage lubricant in the pots.
(http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/images/251pic.gif)
http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/ffpots.htm
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Originally posted by Nifty
word of warning. as of right now, the little rotaries can't be programmed under Win XP. Supposedly will be fixed by the end of the month.
It isn't just XP..they can't be programmed using 98 either if you are using the Dauzimmer drivers..dunno about the Saitek software..that POS was hard enough to 'remove' from my system, let alone try and get it to work.
Love the X45 though...it just drove me mad for the first two weeks I owned it due to loading the Saitek software before the Dauz drivers.
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WHAT THE HELL IS A POT!!??!?!!?!:D
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I'd advise aganst using WD40, it dries and leaves a residue that will quickly make the problem worse by acting like a magnet to any dust.
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LOL $300 and TM still won't shell out for some decent pots. I told you so.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
WHAT THE HELL IS A POT!!??!?!!?!:D
I'm sure your joking, but for the benefit of those who are saying "WTF?"....Pot=Potentiometer.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Just a small point. TM didn't put the crap lub in these things. The pot manufacturer is CTS. THEY put the garbage lubricant in the pots.
(http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/images/251pic.gif)
http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/ffpots.htm
I stand corrected. Thank you Midnight. :) However, they (TM) could have spec'd out the lub for these POTS. Granted, these are probably off the shelf items and going with a custom lub would probably add to the cost of the POT, but when the end item is $270 dollars, then increase of a couple of cents per POT is meaningless.
The point being, this j/s should have a much better fit, finish, function then it does. Course, with my luck, I got the j/s made on Friday, just before the shift ended, which is why I have so many problems :D
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Alot of us "old guys" learned along time ago, money spent does not equal quality received. Consider it a lesson learned.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Just a small point. TM didn't put the crap lub in these things. The pot manufacturer is CTS. THEY put the garbage lubricant in the pots.
(http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/images/251pic.gif)
http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/ffpots.htm
No one twisted TM's collective arm, forcing them to use inferior product.
TM has always been close, but they've never been dependable overall.
Better hold on to that CH gear Midnight, I'm afraid you're going to need it:)
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Oh brother, here we go. And the "experts" come outta the woodwork. Carry on!
SOB
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AKIron, I'd love to find out about the hall mod if you could post the information. I saw the thread on Cougworld and promply forgot about it since I only had my Cougar for a day.
Got it on a Friday, and that Monday I mailed it off to a guy I know who runs a machine shop. I'm hoping to get it back soon.
He had all of his guys poking around finding the potential failure points and designing fixes. I actually understood part of what he was saying, but he's pretty much promised it will never wear out :)
The only thing left to perfect would be the pots, unless he's getting them fixed also :)
BTW, POT is Potentiometer, a variable resistor.
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Originally posted by SOB
Oh brother, here we go. And the "experts" come outta the woodwork. Carry on!
SOB
Heyas SOB:)
Just want you to know that I am indeed experten!!!
My qualifications sir, are listed below:
1. I have gray hair
2. My back hurts often
3. I have 1 wife, 4 kids, 2 cats and 1 dog.
4. I can fall asleep at any time AND without advanced notice.
5. I gamed on a Vic 20 and a C-64
6. I can remember a time when if you had a good idea, a bank would lend you money on your signature alone.
So, there ya have it.....if I say TM sucks, then you can count on it:)
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Originally posted by Rude
Better hold on to that CH gear Midnight, I'm afraid you're going to need it:)
Bought a used CHFFX stick some 4 years ago and haven't had any probs w/ it. My first 5 MS and Logitech sticks lasted all of 3 months each.
Haven't had to clean/replace any pots in it although I did replace a pot in my Pro Peds after 2 1/2 years of abuse.
CH's reputation for quality and durability is well desirved IMO.
The Cougar is an interesting stick but, as with new cars, I'll not spend my money untill the model has evolved and the bugs worked out.
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I have had my Cougar for months now and I ran into the same problem. Found the thread on Cougar world, and 20 minutes later, no spiking/nose-bounce. It has been working flawlessly since.
The are way to many postives to the Cougar, that far outweigh this 1 little minor glitch with the lub used on the POTS. Bottom line is that there is NOTHING WRONG with the POTs.
How many of us have purchased NEW cars within the last 5 years ? How much did you have to pay for that car ? Using the same logic, how come we have to change the spark plugs ... you would think that the car company would have installed sparks that last forever for the amount of money spent.
Oh my god ... a spark plug went foul in my BMW/Mercedes ... send it back to the factory and tell everyone not to buy BMWs/Mercedes.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Kinda expensive ($125) but there is/will be a third party kit to replace the stick pots with hall sensors (magnetic). I'll post an email address if anyone is interested.
I am interested Iron .. please post it.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
How many of us have purchased NEW cars within the last 5 years ? How much did you have to pay for that car ? Using the same logic, how come we have to change the spark plugs ... you would think that the car company would have installed sparks that last forever for the amount of money spent.
Car gets me to work, to the trail heads, and to the slopes. Also takes me to AH cons, vacations, and visiting my parents. Hauls groceries, lumber, and the dead bodies of people who annoy me.
Cougar just feeds my silly video game addiction.
Which is not to say I don't have a cougar. I also have the full CH USB set. I seem to spend $300 a year on game controllers. $14.95 a month? Yeah, right.
I've got about $1,500 in parts for my cockpit. I need to spend $160 for a Bosch jig saw, then some lumber, and start building the shell soon. I stupidly divorced my wife; I should have sold her and used the proceeds for cat food and AH subscriptions.
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My CH Combatstick was bought winter 1996/1997. Still don't have to mess with pot to be happy.
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My cougar stays where it is..
carry on.
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damn.,...
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Originally posted by Rude
Heyas SOB:)
Just want you to know that I am indeed experten!!!
My qualifications sir, are listed below:
1. I have gray hair
2. My back hurts often
3. I have 1 wife, 4 kids, 2 cats and 1 dog.
4. I can fall asleep at any time AND without advanced notice.
5. I gamed on a Vic 20 and a C-64
6. I can remember a time when if you had a good idea, a bank would lend you money on your signature alone.
So, there ya have it.....if I say TM sucks, then you can count on it:)
LOL...your qualifications speak for themselves, I respectfully withdraw my earlier remark! :D
SOB
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Originally posted by SlapShot
The are way to many postives to the Cougar, that far outweigh this 1 little minor glitch with the lub used on the POTS. Bottom line is that there is NOTHING WRONG with the POTs.
I agree that there are many positives relative to the Cougar. What burns my prettythang is the fact that the POT and gimbal problems are so prevelant. Wasn't this project in development for 3+ years?
Everyone was raving about the Cougar till folks began shelling out their' hard earned money for it. I paid $270 for a trouble free system which would last forever. Call me silly but I find it more than a little annoying that I should now have to tweak POTS or replace componants at additional cost.
DmdMax
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I have a cougar, and I too am very disappointed with it. Every thrustmaster stick I have ever owned had had craptastic spiky pots, and the cougar is no exception. I had a CH stick for 4 years before I noticed anything wrong with it, and a saitek stick for nearly 2, which I sold in perfect working order when I got the cougar. I have an ancient MS sidewinder stick that is still rock solid (which I am thinking of going back to).
Before the cougar came out I posted my concerns about TM spiky pots at the cougarworld forums, and was told by several people how that could never happen with the new stick. My cougar started spiking within 2 weeks of using it :( Not only that, a short search of the forums revealed that LOTS of people were having the same problem. I now have to clean the pots every month or so, and in between the get progressively worse until I can't live with it anymore and have to clean them again.
Even worse, is that the mechanism was nice and tight when I got the stick, but it has slowly started developing slop around the centre area. I eventually paid someone half the cost of the stick to get it fixed, and even though they did an excellent job, I am wondering how long it would last.
I decided many years ago never to buy a TM product again, but the promise of the cougar made me foolishly change my mind. :(
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Originally posted by Hussein
Never had one spike on my MS PP1. It's seen already 2 years of hard use and works like brand new.
Have a gameport PP1 since 97, still works like new not a single spike. Bought a usb pp1 in 2000, still works like new .
Of course I don't get to tinker with it and replace parts or clean pot, whatever that is .
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Bumping for squaddie who has same problem.
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Originally posted by DMax
How does one clean the pots?
DmdMax
Contact cleaner bought at your local Radio Shack would do the trick. Before you apply the contact cleaner, remove the pot from the stick and leads and use a small nail file to file down the lead points on the pot. Once you have those lead points nice and shiny, use a Q-Tip dipped in the contact cleaner to clean the lead points and let it dry for about 15 minutes then put the pot back in your stick.
You can also custom order the pots from CTS, which is the OEM maker for pots that are used by both Thrustmaster and CH Products. The pots usually have a 5-6 million cycle life span but sometimes you get bad pots. During my stint at CH, at least 1 in 6 potentiometers we got from CTS were bad, usually because they got shorted out during shipping.
Ack-Ack
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I bought 2 TM's way back in my old AW days. The firsts hat switch went off like a champaign cork. The second( a few weeks later was literally twisted off the base by a 5 year old little girl.
CH all the way.
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AKIron - why don't you just post a link to that 'hall sensor mod'? :D
Or else mail me!
kirin@fw-190.com
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I have a logitech wingman extreme digital and haven't had a problem. Where are these "pots"located?(never took one apart)
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I love my Cougar, it's been great so far. I also understood that when I bought it, iwas buying what I considered a piece of computer hardware. Cleaning would be needed, and maybe even tweaking. I paid alot more for my PC, as I am sure all you have, and how many times do we crack open the PC to do cleaning and tweaking? I do rather frequently.
I'll keep and enjoy my Cougar, cause if anything breaks, and lets all agree that our joysticks are used ALOT, It's worth fixing. I had CH gear before, but when things broke, I bought a new stick and/or throttle. With my Cougar, I keep it, and upkeep it. I am sure the cost of upkeep is less than having to keep replacing sticks, like I did with my CH gear.
Besides, it feels solid, alot more than the other light plastic sticks out there.
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Rude:
I can also remember when the bank would loan you money on a good idea. I also have grey hair but as I get older I cant ...umm
...... geez, it was on the tip of my eerrrmmm....uumm - n/m
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Rude should be designated as "The Sage of AH". < Scot falls back to sleep>
Cougar here and working fine.
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Hedu, what CH gear did you have to replace? Or replace more than once? Honest question.
I bought a Fighterstick, a Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals about 4 years ago (maybe more can't remember now for sure) and I've never had to clean a pot, let alone replace anything.
Hell, I would love to have the new USB full CH Pro setup, but my gear is still so solid I can't bring myself to spend all that cash when the gear I have still works so well.
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The reason MS sticks keep on working is that they do NOT use POTs........they use optical sensors.
For $270 TM should have hidden $170 US inside each stick or have each stick come with an on-site service agreement!
Hwkeye
The Original Flying Tigers
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My Cougar arrives tommorrow. I bled from the eyeballs to get it.
If the thing falls apart in a thousand pieces im gonna tell the wife I love it. Ill tell her its the most adorable Combat related piece of kit ive ever owned and will ever own.
Life wont be worth living if she ever finds out theres gonna be problems with it.
:eek:
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There is no way a stick that gets the level and amount of use is going to remain perfect forver.. There are physical contacts occuring and there will be wear under any circumstances. The Potentiometers used are standard HIGH quality Pots, which in the case of the cougar allow you to simply get commercial replacecments. The F22 had a specific shaft that was non standard and a pain in the butt to machine...
Magnetic sensors are a good way to go, but I have had no problem with my Cougar and use it a ton.. If I ever do get a problem I'll get new pots either from TM or commercially..they are very inexpensive.
I have a Cougar because my F22 simply died.. I have rebuilt and rewired it numerous times in 5 years and I would estimate that I got at least 4000 hours of hard use from that puppy.. TM is dropping this line because it is a low volume highly specialized market.. they sold over 10000 of them, but it cost a lot to make and ship.
Its a personal decision, I for one love it and want to keep it running because without this style of stick I don't enjoy flying.. I got so accustomed to my F22 that when it finally died I stopped flying for the most part..it just wasn't fun.. all the familiarity was gone...
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ive had my TM Top Gun for four years now and ive had absoloutly ZERO problems with it
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I won't buy a TM product as long as there is another choice available. I have a brand new platinum top gun in the box that I can't use on my system. Why? Because it will not interface with the TM brand rudder pedals I have, or any other rudder pedals without the purchase of an additional controller card. :mad: It took TM tech support over 8 weeks to figure that out. :rolleyes:
This company had the EARNED nickname of Bustmaster many years ago. It has not changed in my experiance. I have my first ch stick, sloppy but still works at 7 years old, a pro stick over 5 years old that my son uses and my "new" pro stick over 1.5 years old and they ALL work. The TM doesn't.
Nuff said
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My Saitek X36 started spiking and losing calibration after only a month of use. I sent it in to Saitek to get it fixed. When I got it back, they assured me that it was fixed. Two weeks later, the same crap started happening. I went back to my MS PP2.
Ordered a Cougar and have been using it since April without a single problem (well, there was the button that popped off when it fell off my desk, but it went back on without a prob and works fine).
Everybody has their horror stories of some particular peice of equipment, from joysticks to cars. I am very happy with my Cougar, as are many others. There are many that aren't.
Different strokes and all....
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Originally posted by Kirin
AKIron - why don't you just post a link to that 'hall sensor mod'? :D
Or else mail me!
kirin@fw-190.com
Certainly, here ya go.
http://cubpilot.home.att.net/page17.html
Not sure if this link mentions the price but I learned from an email his price is about $125 plus shipping.
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Originally posted by Bonden
Rude:
I can also remember when the bank would loan you money on a good idea. I also have grey hair but as I get older I cant ...umm
...... geez, it was on the tip of my eerrrmmm....uumm - n/m
What you said...or tried to say
:)