Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Curval on October 10, 2002, 02:33:05 PM
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Alot of people claim that playing computer games is a waste of time. Frankly I know what I know about computers due to computer games...and I also have picked up a fair bit of historical knowledge in some games. The former is very relevant to my current job, the later is great for cocktail parties.
I have recently started to play Medieval Total War. In it one of the factions is Germany...aka The Holy Roman Empire.
This was news to me...I never really studied Medieval History...but I always thought the Holy Roman Empire was Italy..or Italian.
I realise I'm showing my ignorance here...can someone educate me as to the history of the Holy Roman Empire...in a paragraph or two if possible. I don't want to read links.
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The Roman empire split in two parts - actually had two emperors for a while. The Eastern (greek) part was based in Constantinople and it survived the downfall of the western one - the Rome itself to the german invaders.
After that the Constantinople was eventually pressed by barbarian onslaught - russians from the north and islam (arabs/turks) from the south.
They had that nice invention "greek fire" - napalm shot from the tubes that would burn in water. Burned at least one invading russian fleet with it.
During one of the crusades the venetians persuaded the cusaders to sack theConstantinple (which was their main commercial competitor) on the way to Holy Land as a payment for ships used to transport them or something. That was a huge blow from which it did not recover - even though it survived for a while.
Eventually the turks hired christian artillery experts and build enourmous cannon which allowed them to breach the walls and capture the city - modern Istanbul.
The Greek Ortodox religion spread to russians from Constantinople.
miko
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Miko...thanks.
So why is Germany The Holy Roman Empire in the game?
Maybe I am misinterpreting who is who in the actual game. Their Standards look identical if it is in fact the Greeks.
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"history of the Holy Roman Empire...in a paragraph "
ah , ok , give me a min
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comon curval what do think the 1st Reich was :)
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Not the roman empire miko the holy roman empire theres a difference :) Whats referred to a the Holy Roman Empire was first referred to as such in 1157.
I am sure you wil look it up.
Curval Germans would correct and this was referred top as the 1st Reich / empire.
Go here (http://www.geocities.com/vrozn/)
What did Charlemagne say he would have had he been at the crucfiction of Christ?
Its kinda of funny because he was a fresh Christian convert.
He said "Had I been there with my sword, there would have been no crucifiction." Whats funny is that the the "crucifiction" was Christs whole purpose on earth.
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Oh, heck!
Sorry, I gave you the wrong one. The Constantinople (Bysantium) was the second roman empire. I studied part of my history in Russian and part in English, hence I confuse the terms sometimes.
The european Holy Roman Empire was german/austrian conglomeration of states.
BTW, have you heard of Europe universalis and Europe Universlis II? It is (much) more strategical but much less tactical than Total War.
miko
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Was editing when miko posted........
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German Heiliges Römisches Reich, Latin Sacrum Romanum Imperium,
a complex of lands in western and central Europe that was ruled first by Frankish and then by German kings for 10 centuries, from Charlemagne's coronation in 800 until the renunciation of the imperial title in 1806. The empire and the papacy were the two most important institutions of western Europe during the Middle Ages.
The Roman title of emperor, which had lapsed in western Europe in the 5th century, was revived in 800 by Pope Leo III and conferred on Charlemagne, king of the Franks. After another lapse when the Carolingian line died out, the title of emperor, or Holy Roman emperor, was borne by successive dynasties of German kings almost continuously from the mid-10th century until the abolition of the empire.
The Latin phrase sacrum Romanum imperium actually dates only from 1254, though the term holy empire reaches back to 1157, and the term Roman empire was used from 1034 to denote the lands under the emperor Conrad II. The term Roman emperor is older, dating from Otto II (d. 983). The term Holy Roman emperor is a convention adopted by modern historians; it was never officially used. The prospective heir to the throne was called king of the Romans.
The territory of the empire originally included what is now Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, eastern France, the Low Countries, and parts of northern and central Italy. But its sovereign was usually the German king, and the German lands were always its chief component; after the mid-15th century, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.
Originally allied with the papacy, the empire became involved in a long struggle with the popes for the leadership of Christian Europe between the mid-11th and the mid-13th century. Weakened by the effects of this struggle, the empire was further shaken by the 16th-century Reformation, during which a split developed between the Catholic emperor and those German princes who adopted Protestantism. A series of conflicts followed, climaxed by the Thirty Years' War, which devastated Germany in the period 1618–48. After 1648, the empire was simply a loose collection of semi-independent states under the nominal authority of the emperor. In this period the French writer Voltaire described it as “neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.”
In spite of their bitter quarrels, the empire and the papacy remained closely associated throughout the Middle Ages, and until the beginning of the 16th century the German king, having been elected emperor by the leading German princes, was then crowned by the pope. Maximilian I. (1459-1519) (reigned 1493–1519) was the first emperor not to be so crowned; his successor, Karl V. (1500-1558), did have a papal coronation in 1530, but the custom was abandoned in the war-torn period that followed, and it was never revived.
Beginning in the early 15th century, the imperial title and the German kingship became virtually hereditary in the Austrian House of Habsburg (Habsburg-Lorraine after 1740), although formal elections were still held. On Aug. 10, 1804, after Napoleon Bonaparte had declared himself emperor of the French in a bid to usurp the Holy Roman emperor's traditional primacy among European monarchs, Francis II, last of the imperial line, adopted the title “emperor of Austria.” Two years later, on Aug. 6, 1806, he resigned the old title of Holy Roman emperor altogether.
The German Empire of 1871–1918 was often called the Second Reich (empire) to indicate its descent from the medieval empire; by the same reasoning, Adolf Hitler referred to Nazi Germany as the Third Reich.
Copyright © 1994-2002 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
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The Italian confusion comes in because geographically, the bulk of the so-called HRE was in Germany, but the major urban populations were in Italy; so Imperial politics were big down there. That and Frederick II had his court in Sicily.
the empire and the papacy remained closely associated throughout the Middle Ages,
It's a little more complicated than that. Those "bitter quarrels" were pretty fierce, and the alliance was pretty damn weak.
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Thanks guys.
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Originally posted by Wotan
...the the "crucifiction" was Christs whole purpose on earth...
by that same logic, Judas was a good guy (it think this was part of the message in "The Last Temptation of Christ" <--- great movie BTW, trickiest devil ever)
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whgates3: by that same logic, Judas was a good guy
From the point of view of Judean Department of Homeland Defence he was good - ratting out the instigator of ceditious activity.
From the christians' point of view he was not so much "good" as essential.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
From the point of view of Judean Department of Homeland Defence he was good - ratting out the instigator of ceditious activity.
miko
Stan: I thought we were the Popular Front of Judea
Reg: No you avacado..we are the Judean People's Front
Stan: What ever happened to the Popular Front of Judea Reg?
Reg: He's over there.
Entire group: "Splitter!"
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What you guys failed to answer was the question of "why?"
The answer stretches across hundreds of years and has its roots in the decline of power of the western half of the Roman empire. The Roman Empire grew to the point that effective governing wasn't possible given the travel distances and multiple sub-cultures. Typically, after a Roman army captured a region, it pretty much let people continue doing what they had been doing, but using a common currency, sharing common defense, and paying a tribute to the empire for various services it provided. This made it easier to rule the hearts of the people, but it also gave the empire a whole circus of sub-cultures with differing laws and ways of doing business. Eventually it was realized that the empire would have to be split in two halves, with one seat in Rome and the other in Constantinople. Still, the empire continued to grow and eventually even this arrangement became unworkable and peoples' welfare began to decline, resulting in the folks losing faith in their government to provide them the basic services they wanted.
As the seat of power was eroded, the people began to turn to local government to provide the services that the Empire had provided earlier. Priests, who had always maintained a limited sort of power over people, began to gain more trust and power in the local communities as "official" government began to falter. People would turn to their priests for arbitration of disputes, or recognition of transfers of property, and so forth. It also became vogue for the local nobleman to make monetary donations to the local church as a way to show to his fellow citizens that he was "one of the good guys". Eventually, as the churches got richer, they were able to provide more services, and thereby won the hearts of more people, and thereby became more powerful in making the decisions of how things should be run in the community. Who would you follow: the guy who answers to a far-away governor, or the guy that you see every week who can provide you services right now?
Along this same time came the concept of converting the barbarian Germans and Vikings to Christianity, which was made easier by the fact that the cross was very similar to symbols used by the barbarian priests (that happened to be based on the general shape of a Germanic broadsword). As the barbarian kings adopted Christianity, the popularity of the Christian faith increased, as did the power of the churches and the adoption of the Catholic faith (itself an amalgamation of the various genres of Christianity in practice at the time) as the single, recognized "official" religion.
Meanwhile, the eastern half of the empire, seated in Constantinople (named for the Emperor Constantine), pretty much continued as it had, except that their faith became what is known as "Greek Orthodox".
Trivia: the Russian word "czar" is a derivative of "Caesar".
So what do you think of Governor Jeb Bush's plan to turn more of the Florida social welfare programs over to private church-sponsored organizations? Are we going the way of the Romans?
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"So what do you think of Governor Jeb Bush's plan to turn more of the Florida social welfare programs over to private church-sponsored organizations? "
Looks like the current system is bankrupt. Could be an improvement.
"Are we going the way of the Romans?"
Only when we declare Empire by word or deed.