Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Urchin on October 10, 2002, 11:21:00 PM
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After losing my tail in one hit, yet again, I feel compelled to ask some questions.
Actually, just one question. I've heard the Germans were in possesion of the Hispano (the same one that the British used)... so why on EARTH would they use the clearly inferior Mg151/20 or Mk108. And yes, the Mk108 is clearly inferior in every respect to the Hispano, with the exception of individual rounds hitting power, and that is whoopee close.
It makes absolutely no sense to me why anyone would choose the Mg151/20, or the godawful MG/FF, when they had the opportunity to use the Hispano instead.
So what am I missing here?
Or perhaps I should ask why the Mg151 sucks so bad in comparison to the Hispano. If the Germans chose it for their main weapon for most of their planes, it should (in theory, I suppose) have some redeeming value?
Honestly, the Hispano (in AH at least) is more along the lines of a 30mm that fires fast and straight. You hit someone 1 time with a 30mm in the wing or the tail, you get a kill. You hit someone 1 time with a Hispano in the wingtip or the tail and you get a kill. You hit someone 1 time with a Mg151/20 in the wingtip or the tail, you get diddly all. I've yet to get a kill with the Mg151 that took less than 6 rounds (at least that I've noticed). Even with my brief experience with the Spitfire, I can't count the number of times I've killed someone in one hit. I also can't count the number of times I've been killed in one hit by them. Every time a Spit pings me, the EXPECTATION is I'm dead. I don't think that with any other plane except the Tiffie. If a F4U pings me once and I die, I know it was a C-Hog.
So, is the Hispano overmodelled, the Mg151 undermodelled, or were the LW armorers just really diddlying stupid?
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Firstly, you need to take a chill pill, kid. It's only a game afterall.
You hit someone 1 time with a Hispano in the wingtip or the tail and you get a kill.
Not in my experience, and I regularly fly the tiffie and tempest. I don't think I've ever got a one ping kill with either. And I'm not a bad shot either. The Hispano is a great weapon, though - it's high speed ballistics give the projectiles a flat tradjectory.
What's the 20mm LW cannon on the 190-A8? It's a great weapon - I downed two P-51s in a recent TOD just with a few pings.
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Urchin:
The German 13mm weighs about 17Kg
The US .50 weighs about 30Kg
The Mg151 weighs about 42Kg
The Hispano MkII weighs about 60Kg
A belted 13mm round weighs about 80g
A belted .50 round weighs about 140g
A belted Mg151 round weighs about 200g
A belted Hispano round weighs about 280g
Get the picture?
The western Allies used much bigger, heavier guns with higher velocities and bigger projectiles for the same caliber.
A FW-190A8 with 4xMg151 (780 rounds) 2xMg131 (950 rounds) is carrying about 434 Kg of guns and ammo.
If it was carrying Western guns it could carry aproximately 2 hispanos (500 rounds) and 2x.50 (800) rounds. Also the Hispano's were never synchronized so they would have to be mounted outside the propellor arc. And the .50s are too big to fit in the cowling so they would have to go into the wings also.
The British guns have a clear advantage in ballistics but the last time I ran tests a Hispano round was only about 10% more lethal than an Mg151 round. Considering that it is 40% larger, maybe the British were crazy.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Urchin
After losing my tail in one hit, yet again, I feel compelled to ask some questions.
I put a pretty strong blast into you at convergence, Urchin, all of it concentrated on your tail. Given the shot, I'd wager that 10-20 20mm smacked into your fuselage in roughly the same spot.
Attached is an image of the shot in question.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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This is AFAIK, I could be wrong.
The answer to a lot of "one-ping" kills is that they aren't one ping. A bunch of shots landing at the same time get sent as a single "hit" packet with a count of the damage inflicted, so you hear one ping even though it was many hitting at once.
Anyways, there is no way to be sure wether or not there is something wrong with any guns, simply because there is no objective data about the implementation in the game. About all we can test is relative hitting power.
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IMO, nor hispano neither 151/20 are well modelled here.
1 - vibrations: fire with 4 "lo energy" 151/20 in 190A8 and repeat with a typh, any difference?
2 - mines: should not lose power with the range.
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Some silly stuff but anyway.
Hstab/Vstab hit points: 100
MG 151/20 lethality: 99
Hispano MkII Lethality: 101
Now which will appear way more lethal though there isn't that big difference at all?
// fats
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Hooligan,
..still doesn't make Hispano to be any 30mm :rolleyes:
Germans actually used more explosives in their cannon rounds than allies, which evens up some lack of velocity.
From the past, my experiences with Hispano was - 800 yards, a target and a hispano hit or two = dead enemy.
Pretty much something or more departed the plane with single 20mm hit somewhere... but with MG151/20 it was pretty much pounding on the planes.
...although I did get kills with average of 13-20 cannon shots per kill in 109 fairly often ;)
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Beyond the technical reasons that Hooligan stated, there is another more "human" answer.
Nationalistic Pride.
As Hooligan stated, tests in AH have shown that the difference between the Hispano and the MG151/20 is around 10%. If it was strictly historical the difference would be larger. So is it a Pro-Luftwaffe conspiracy that makes the MG151/20 unrealistically powerful? If you don't believe those tests, do your own and present the results.
Impression are one thing, accurate testing is another.
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Germans could use Mg151/20 and Mg131 synchronized or unsynchronized. In the case of 190D9, they decided to place all the armament concentrated around the nose of the plane, even implying to have all the guns synchronized, instead of placing them unsynchronized in the same position spit has the hispanos. What is the benefict of that? convergence? No, IMO, the advantage came in the form of much less dispersion. The vibrations and derived dispersion produced when firing the two "lo E" 151/20s placed at the wing roots surely were much less disturbing than the vibrations and derived dispersion produced when firing two "Hi E" long barrel hispanos placed well outside the wingroots of the plane, at a much more flexible points.
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Hmm, it looks as if the Hispano weights on the Fighter Gun Table (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html) are off. I don't remember the 42kg for Mk V.
My bad?
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No hfmudd the weight difference is my mistake, sorry. I had to look almost everything up but the weight of the cannons I wrote from memory (erroneously in one case).
Hooligan
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As to why the Germans didn't use the hispano though they had access to it the answer is that there is a significant difference between the reliability of the Hispano MKII and MKV in British service and the original french Hispano: i.e. the British had to do a lot of work to get it reliable. The original drum-fed Hispano MKI which was tested during the BoB would jam after only a few rounds. The belt-fed Hispano MkII in service with the RAF had an average rate of failure of 1 in 1500 rounds fired.
Since the germans already had a reliable small calibre cannon (15mm) they probably though it more sensible to proceed with developing that to 20mm calibre.
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Hispanos are capable of 1 ping kills. In my experience a single hit to a vertical or horizontal stabilizer will blow it clean off, even on tough planes like f6fs and f4us.
I don't recall this ever happening with 151s and I've fired more 151 rounds than Hispano.
This might be due to an incomplete damage model more than anything else.
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Wish i could get these 1 ping kills people talk about. I fly with a/c that have hispanos 99% of the time and yet to perform a 1 ping kill (except on a jug, but it hit the canopy).
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Am I the only one who considers this entire debate silly? The fact is that I didn't hit Urchin with a single round last night. I plastered his tail at convergence (about 220-250 yards) with easily 10 or more rounds of 20mm. Network lag almost certainly accounts for the perception of a single ping death.
I just looked at the film again... it took 14 rounds of 20mm... all or most of them hitting... to take off Urchin's tail. Again this is at convergence with the help of .303s also hitting together in one spot.
Attached is an image of the ammo load before and after blowing off the tail. Guess what, Luftwhiners? That's 13 more rounds than a German 30mm would need to take that tail off, so please spare us the nonsense.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The germans did use the Hispano. In flying boats. They had the gun and the ammo in production. The Spanish even adopted the 109 wing to take 2 in wing hispanos.
The british evaluated produing the 151 but thought it was too hard for thier industry to produce. The US did produce it in a different caliber but never adopted it.
At 300 yards in AH I dont think there is any difference between the guns package on a 190D9 and a spit IX with 50 cals. I bet almost no one could tell a difference.
At 600 yards there is a big difference. That makes sence from a balistic stand point I think. Our range finder really helps the hispano and 50 cal.
But to say the hispano hits like a 108..that is just silly. the 108 hits real real hard in this game. If you hit.
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DMF, it is a bit silly no doubt to debate 1 ping Hispano kills. I'm not so sure that it is silly to debate if AH should or should not accurately pass along the number of hits from your client to your targets.
I accept that it is an imperfect world and from time to time my AH view is not going to match that of my victim or my killer but a lot of people don't. In my experience this more often results in an implication of cheating and bad feelings all around than the one ping kill.
For what is worth, I for one don't consider the 151 to be inferior to the Hispano. The Hispano hits harder with a flatter trajectory sure, but we are not all DMF's and Urchins who can easily get that snapshot that lands a couple rounds on a wing tip. I appreciate the greater ammo capacity of the 151 on the 190 series (I'm not going to compare the 109 to the Spit as the Hispano would not fit in the 109 nose and therefore is apples to oranges) that allows me the luxury of a longer burst.
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Some shamless consideations :)
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I seem to recall wing armed planes were advised to shoot only at convergence ranges otherwise the fired load had a high chance of missing the target due to the rounds crossing in front or the back of the target plane. I also recall a story where a P-51D pilot had a gun solution on a Bf109G-14 which was chasing a frdly P-51D, but the target was closer than his convergence range and the Pony driver was afraid his rounds will land at the P-51D in front of the 109 so he couldn't shoot.
Anybody actually notice the difference between nose armed planes and wing armed planes in AH??
I sure don't.
Thus, unless some sort of decisive difference can be noticed between the wing-arms agenda and the center-line agenda, comparing the Mausers on the 109 and the Hispanos on the Spitfires doesn't necessarily seem to be "apples and oranges".
Set convergence to 350 and whether you fire at 100 yards or 600 yards, doesn't seem to make a difference in any Hispano armed plane(at least to me..). Granted, the 1.2k hit claims are exaggerations, but hits(not just any hits, but lethal hits!) ranging from 600~800 yards is not uncommon in AH.
However, firing at 100 yards and firing at 600 yards, makes a drastic difference on Mauser armed planes. And though experienced pilots in the 109 and 190 do say they can land 600 yard hits with the Mauser, to a paduwan like me the thought of firing over 500 yards range makes me wince.
Generally, I feel safe when there's a Mauser armed plane behind me at 600 yards, but when I see a Type99(N1K2) or M2/Hispano armed plane behind me at the same range I pray to myself ("ooh.. please.. don't fire a tracking shot or otherwise I'm gonna lose my stabs or rear fuselage...!")
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If a plane has wing armed cannons range set to 350 yards, and fires bursts at a 600~700 yard target, the distance between the shots fired from each wing cannon is almost as much as the length of the wingspan where each cannons were armed. Be it even "mere" 500 yards and the distance between the separate cannon shells is enough to make the rounds pass the port and starboard sides of the target plane if the shots were fired "right on target" via the gunsight.
Landing a "lethal" hit with both cannons seems very unlikely in ranges over the convergence settings in wing-armed planes, and it would be typically only one of the cannons hitting the target plane while the other misses, since the target range and convergence range is so different.
So, given 20~30 rounds of Hispanos fired from a Spitfire against an extending enemy plane at 500~600 yards thats 10~15 rounds fired per a single gun. Due to convergence issues, only a part of those 10~15 rounds fired from a single gun will hit on a target like a vertical stab or rear fuselage(while the other misses). If we consider 5 hits from 20mm shells lethal, then we can assume the shots fired out of a single cannon against a target outside convergence range is landing with 33~50% hit percentage, and knocking out clean a vertical stab or rear fuselage.
So, how in the world do they land lethal shots in that condition? I'd understand that happening to nose-armed planes, since with the control of the nose pitch the lethal range of the cannons be extended or reduced with relative ease. However, I don't think one can compensate for ranges on wing armed planes with such ease, and yet, when I'm in a Spitfire, I fine-tune aiming in exact same way(pitch up a bit, or pitch down) as I would when I'm in a 109, against targets further off the convergence and they all seem to hit exactly in the same manner.
I'm not ready to claim something's "right" or "wrong". And I understand that AH is not a physically perfect world. But some things still seem just too strange..
ps) But then again, I also suck crap when it comes to gunnery. Maybe I'm mising something I shouldn't?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Anybody actually notice the difference between nose armed planes and wing armed planes in AH??
I notice a huge difference. I can hit things with killing bursts with the Mosquito at ranges that I can only hit with stray rounds from the Spitfire.
Convergence works just like it did in WWII.
If you think about it, there is no way HTC could make it perform differently.
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Honest question Karnak:
I know you're a lot into the Mossie, so probably you're right when it comes to when Spits and Mossies are compared. But considering the trajectory of the hispanos, isn't there a possibility that the sheer number of 20mms cramped up in the nose is the main reason for for the difference you notice, rather than the differences in the agenda of wing-armed planes and nose-armed planes?
Like, its the same sort of 'stray rounds' that you're hitting the target with when in Mossie, except the number of the hispanos on the Mossie just gives out a higher probability of killing the plane?
Because, if I'm in a plane like a Mossie armed with four hisps and tons of 20mm ammo, I'd be pretty much go for a confident tracking shot no matter what range he is in if within 1000. But if I'm confined to a Spit with two hisps and only 240 rounds.. I think I'd be much much more hesitant and timid, using only short bursts and thus, lowering the chance of hit probability even more.
The funny thing is, even with those short bursts, I land its more often than I'd think against targets at 600~700 yard range in the Spitfire when converged at 350. In the 109 with a single 20mm also converged at 350, which would be theoretically easier to compensate in aiming, I consider myself lucky if I even get a single flash on the target plane.
Maybe a comparison with the Typhoon and the Mossie would be more relevant? :confused: Or a comparison with the Spitfire and some other fighter plane with center-lined armament?
Also, how about a comparison when inside the convergence range too close? Like when the guns are converged at 350 and the target is at 100 yards?
I'm not asking to just Karn, but anyone else who'd be interested share his experience on this thread :)
ps) I'm also interested in how high an arc would be when cannon convergence is set to 650. I've tried some quick experiments with different convergence settings so I actually can get a result where I am aiming the target right in the center of the sight, but the rounds would miss because the ballistic arc would be above the target. So far, I couldn't produce any such results. Is this possible in AH?? If so, which distance should I try shooting at with what convergence?
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Well, when I flew a Spit IX earlier tonight I was firing at a P-51D at 800 yards (only .303s after the first burst) and I could very clearly see my rounds converging and then separating. All my rounds missed him, that was about 20 rounds of 20mm and 600 rounds of .303.
It was very clear to me then that it is different.
I have my Spitfire convergence set to 250 yards and my Mosquito convergence set to 650 yards.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Nationalistic Pride.
Impression are one thing, accurate testing is another.
the AH luftweenies just won't admit to being crappy shots.
:D
edit: except kweassea, apparently. ;)
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Hi Urchin,
>It makes absolutely no sense to me why anyone would choose the Mg151/20, or the godawful MG/FF, when they had the opportunity to use the Hispano instead.
Actually, in WW2 the MG151/20 was considered superior to the Hispano.
Tony Williams pointed out that the British seriously considered copying the German MG151/20 to replace the Hispano cannon. The reason they didn't go ahead with it was that manufacture of the MG151/20 was comparatively complicated, especially considering that some specific German production techniques weren't normally employed in the British industry.
The USA actually did produce a copy of the MG151 (in its 15 mm version) as the T17 .60" (15.24 mm) caliber gun. The USAAF wanted it to replace the 0.50" Browning MGs, but for unclear reasons - one of them might be the USN pushing for 20 mm cannon instead of HMGs -, the T17 did never enter service.
Though the Hispano cannon had a higher muzzle velocity, it was considerably heavier and bulkier than the MG151/20. In single-engined fighters, the barrel return spring invariably protuded beyond the wing's leading edge, creating a fair amount of drag even when covered by a fairing and disturbing the airflow over the wing, reducing the lift it yielded in turns.
Additionally, the MG151/20 had the advantage of being fit for synchronization. Unlike earlier guns, the MG151/20 was electrically primed so that synchronization losses could be kept down to a minimum, and having the guns close to the centreline meant that firepower didn't deteriorate outside of the convergence zone as typcial for outer wing guns.
In short, the big picture is more complex than it appears at the first look, and the individual advantages and disadvantages of both guns really depend on the criteria you choose to apply :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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yes things normally die when you hit them with a
20MM ROUND
20mm = 2cm
2cm= proxy 1 inch
with 4 of them (on hurrc2lese)
thats about
2*4
80mm
8cm of lead going into your plane its not 1 ping your getting with the hurc if its set right its 4 so thats like getting hit with a howzwitzer shot from the panzer
8cm being 4inches
thats why you die i one go
thats why vort fly hurc2lese
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Originally posted by Shane
the AH luftweenies just won't admit to being crappy shots.
:D
Wouldn't they also suffer with Hispano then?-)
Or would they actually get better with spray & pray tactics when one-two hits has chance of breaking wing?-)
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I've been too many times in the receiving side of this kind of thing. I've also been a lot of times in the "giving" side.
I will never forget how, once, flying a Typhoon, I hit a Tempest at 1.1K. Once. In the tail.
The tempest promptly lost its tail and went kaboom.
That was probably the most evident instance of the hispano-lazer issue for me. Well, that, and the time that Fariz hit me once from 1.2K and send me to the stars in my fw190A8.
AH's gunnery model is too simple to be real, and damage is too magnified. In RL, one hit in the tail or the wing would rarely get such catastrophic results as you get in this game, except on japanese rice-paper planes.
[edited for offtopic comments]
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In my case, the most typical figure is a spit hovering nose up at my dead six, firing like crazy from 700-800 yards and getting my 190D9 radiator over'n over with what repeatedly sounds like a single lucky hit. And sometimes they get radiator and fuel at the same time. Those prolonged sprays'n prays while hovering nose up should put the spits directly in stall.
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Originally posted by RRAM
The hispano debate in particular has been discussed for too many times now, and for years, with NO result at all, other than seeing how blind people can get in their idol-adoration intoxication.
I'm curious. Was it the image I posted of me shooting Urchin at about 220 yards with 14 rounds of 20mm that made you think that the Hispanos are hopelessly overmodelled, or is it just some hunch? Because 14 rounds of 20mm into a tail at convergence range would cause devastating damage be it from a Spitfire or a 109.
If anything, Urchin has brought up a good point in this thread about how AH applies damage with network lag. What he didn't do, and what you and several others keep jumping on in spite of it, is show that the Hispano is hopelessly overmodelled.
Guess that means I'm blind and intoxicated with idol-adoration.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ram *was/is/will always be* a hopeless whiner (not to mention just plain wrong).
Why confuse the issue with fact? We should just use his emotional hyperbole instead.
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That is interesting Lev. I heard a couple little pings (like .303 pings) and then one big crack, and the tail was gone.
I assumed you had hit me with a snapshot, and 1 hispano round had landed on the tail. I've seen single pings break off the tail and wingtips before, I assumed that was what has happened.
I had also thought that AH 'played' the hit sounds for every round that hit you. Haven't you ever gone back to the tower and still heard hit sounds for a little bit (a couple seconds)?
Obviously you landed quite a burst on me there, so it wasn't just one ping that took off the tail. I wonder how come I didn't hear more hits then?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I'm curious. Was it the image I posted of me shooting Urchin at about 220 yards with 14 rounds of 20mm that made you think that the Hispanos are hopelessly overmodelled, or is it just some hunch?
Because I'm not talking about this example. I'm talking about HIspano implementation in Aces High and damage modelling in general.
I'm talking about my own experience when flying proton torpedo-fitted planes... One ping in the tail usually (50% of times) equals a destroyed tail. One ping in the wingtip usually (50% of times) equals a destroyed wingtip.
And I'm talking about my own experience when being hitted by one of them (If you still don't believe me, I can dig into the General Discussion forum to find the 1K 1-ping hispano kill by Fariz on my 190A8 if you don't believe me).
[edited]
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Poor ram. One of the only guys to suffer through this game that can turn anyone into a cheer leader with his drivel.
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Originally posted by RRAM
Coming from an prettythang-licker like you, that's almost a confirmation that I'm right.
Thank you. :)
your mother
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AH's gunnery model is too simple to be real, and damage is too magnified. In RL, one hit in the tail or the wing would rarely get such catastrophic results as you get in this game, except on japanese rice-paper planes.
From an RAF report "EXAMINATION OF BULLET STRIKES ON CRASHED GERMAN AIRCRAFT "
Effect of a Hispano 20mm hit on the tail of a Ju88
"Blew a hole in the leading edge measuring about 18" vertically and extending about 18" back from the leading edge on both sides. Also distorted the fin and lifted it's base just under the leading edge, about 9" from the fuselage."
There was also a lot of fragmentation penetration, up to 5 feet from the point of detonation.
That was probably the single hit that brought the Ju88 down. Another Hispano shell blew a large hole in the tailplane, and some AA shell splinters perforated an aileron and the tip of the tailplane.
If a single 20mm can lift a Ju88 fin 9", it should make quite a mess of any fighter's tail.
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20MM ROUND
20mm = 2cm
2cm= proxy 1 inch
with 4 of them (on hurrc2lese)
thats about
2*4
80mm
8cm of lead going into your plane its not 1 ping your getting with the hurc if its set right its 4 so thats like getting hit with a howzwitzer shot from the panzer
8cm being 4inches
Eedjit. You have to look at cross-sectional area, not just diameter.
A 20mm circle has an area of less than 0.5 square inches. Four of them has an area less than 2 square inches. A 75mm circle has an area of 6.8 square inches. The two do not compare. Look at the image, and see for yourself:
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[edited]
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thank you for correcting me shiva
but
when you shoot even for just a millisecond it releases about 14 shots from EACH PAIR of cannons or 28 rounds
thats still more rounds going into you over a wider area than you would with getting hit by a single howzwiter shot wich in this game are 75mm.
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Stop posting hypothetical and exagerated examples.
Take a P-38, use its single Hispano and do controled tests in the DA.
Don't take examples where you blew some major portion of a plane off when you don't know for absolute certain that the aircraft was undamaged up to that point.
Go get real results, then post them. This hyperventilating is useless.
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i thought the P-38 used an M2 20mm cannon - but i think one round from each should be similar in effect, the hispano having a slightly lighter shell and slightly higher muzzle velocity (according to the 0.50 cal lethality thread) than the M2...of course it all depends on how HTC programmed it AH, tho
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The P-38 does have the M2, as do all the other hispano equipped planes in AH, other than the Tempest with the M5 I believe.
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i have an assumption why hispanos feel like laser in AH, but to be sure iīd need more informations.
Pyro once showed me debug info of the .50cal, so when he could show me shell speed of the hispano at 100, 500 and 1000y i would help me a lot (now when they already begin to show code, this shouldnīt be a problem i hope :) )
So if it isnīt too secret pls Pyro show me that speeds thank you.
niklas
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What exactly do you have in mind, niklas?? :confused:
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Originally posted by Vermillion
The P-38 does have the M2, as do all the other hispano equipped planes in AH, other than the Tempest with the M5 I believe.
not sure if i read this correctly, but does this mean that the US 20mm M2 cannon is the same thing as the Hispano?
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Originally posted by whgates3
not sure if i read this correctly, but does this mean that the US 20mm M2 cannon is the same thing as the Hispano?
Yes. The Hispano Mk II that the Spitfires, Typhoon, Hurricane and Mosquito carry is the same gun as the M2 20mm that the P-38, B-29A, F4U-1C and Helldiver carry.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Attached is an image of the shot in question.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Did you get a picture of the crying after?
Never mind, its here.
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RAM Said:
I've been too many times in the receiving side of this kind of thing. I've also been a lot of times in the "giving" side.
I will never forget how, once, flying a Typhoon, I hit a Tempest at 1.1K. Once. In the tail.
The tempest promptly lost its tail and went kaboom.
That was probably the most evident instance of the hispano-lazer issue for me. Well, that, and the time that Fariz hit me once from 1.2K and send me to the stars in my fw190A8.
AH's gunnery model is too simple to be real, and damage is too magnified. In RL, one hit in the tail or the wing would rarely get such catastrophic results as you get in this game, except on japanese rice-paper planes.
Not bad up to this point. An example from personal experience and an astute statement about computer modeling.
In any case, any debate is useless, I gave up a long time ago trying to get AH's wrong things fixed. HTC's immobility and the cheerleaders' fundamentalist attitude will prolly mean that none of the issues in discussion will ever get fixed even if they are repeatedly shown as wrong.
The hispano debate in particular has been discussed for too many times now, and for years, with NO result at all, other than seeing how blind people can get in their idol-adoration intoxication.
In the end is a moot point : the Alliedweebs will never admit that their portable proton torpedoes are too powerful in this game. And as they won't admit it, they won't get fixed. As simple as that.
But then you lose any credibility with baloney like the above. As many times in the past, you start out OK, then shoot yourself in the foot with slander and emotional outbursts. I know you can do better my friend.
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What AH mostly needs is a new, up to date damage model.
And better graphics of course.
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Ram--
Me bringing your mother into this discussion was completely uncalled for, I apologize for that. It is completely abrasive to my Christian Values, and I was convicted of this very recently. Please forgive me for that remark.
Its just that I really don't like you, and then when you come in here with your hacking on the game designers, (and then put a stupid smiley on the end of it) it really gets on my nerves.
sorry again
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Were you flying the backwards firing Typhoon in your above anecdote RAM or just the regular forward firing one? Cuz its common knowledge that the backward firing version has a much higher rate of fire and overall range than the standard model.
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do no why u people pising around with that story on RAM, realy do no why , 2 month a go i flyed aroud with bf110 and shot up the vertical of some spit, spit stil fly strait and just sliped in oposite direction before it begin fall down , and yes the sputnik pilot sprayed allaround in agony and eventualy kiled me with head shot from 800 distance, it loked just like a RAM story but film showed what realy hapaned , and anyway gamey hole is never to far from hack :D
and why to not like RAM ? eventualy is it a nice person , maybe to praud, but not arogant like some others we have in AH
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Minus, maybe next time you won't go vertical with a Spitfire close enough to get within 800 yards of you maybe? ;)
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yikes ,have to precise, vertical stab or horizontal vas it so the plane after fiew sec of strait flying sudently turned 180 degre and shot me down :D
dont forget ,,in Slovak , MOL , mean a :D :D
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Ram--
Me bringing your mother into this discussion was completely uncalled for, I apologize for that. It is completely abrasive to my Christian Values, and I was convicted of this very recently. Please forgive me for that remark.
Its just that I really don't like you, and then when you come in here with your hacking on the game designers, (and then put a stupid smiley on the end of it) it really gets on my nerves.
sorry again
I'm not the one to blame anyone to exceed certain limits in certain moments. In fact I'm famous for my hot blood :).
Not really a problem with that ,ammo. I did go too far, too, in my first answer to you; so I guess I owe you an apology too.
If you wish to talk a bit further in private email , please contact me in e_bringas@telefonica.net . I tried to email an answer to you instead of posting here, but you've got your email disabled in the board :).
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Originally posted by sling322
Were you flying the backwards firing Typhoon in your above anecdote RAM or just the regular forward firing one? Cuz its common knowledge that the backward firing version has a much higher rate of fire and overall range than the standard model.
I'll answer for the last time and will rest the case forever.
I once had a film (certain person sent it to me, and I sent it to HTC) of a never-ending ammo 109G10 flying in the MA. I once had a film of a backwards firing 190, too in the MA. I once had a film of a Typhoon ( I think it was) firing an endless number of rockets in the TA. And I had the name of the program that could be used to cheat AH and get those results (among many many others).
I once,too,got to know the way to cheat the 2-week trial without reformatting the hard drive.
I had or knew all that, and I emailed pyro with the information in private and warning about each of those things so he could put an end to it.
You can only but imagine that it was hard for me NOT to post the infinite ammo and rockets hack film in the general forum, or (evidently, as it caused so many rough times for me) the backwards firing cheat. And the program in question. At that time I was constantly critized by everyone because I was reporting strange happenings in the arenas and califying many of them as cheats.
I didn't do it because I was told, that posting in the public forums that information, it would hurt AH. I could've saved my credibility. I stayed silent.
So when everybody was beheading people reporting hacks , and while everybody was calling me everything from whiner to crybaby, I had the proof in form of films. I never said a thing about them in public, though. It would've hurt AH, so I never posted them in public. I guess I should, so now you'd shut your mouth instead of hitting water with your sarcasm ;).
What? You don't believe me? Ok. you can ask Funked. Ask Fatty. Both of them got mails from me with some of those films.
And over all, ask Pyro if what I say is true or not.
But I stayed silent. So hard to believe from a D1ckhead like me, who always critizes everything and puts down the developers, huh?. Well, it was that way.
See, I'm the first to say that AH is a great game with lots of good things. But I'll never close my eyes to the problems under the excuse that it is to critize, or put down, the work of someone. And much less I insult or put down those who try to report problems or issues. If that makes me the criminal of the streets, well, so be it. I've got a mouth and I've got a brain. I'm sorry for those who have mouth but no brains...but if I have something to say, I say it.
Until now, that, as I said, I rest my case forever. I've had enough of it.
So, Sling...the backwards firing typhoon existed, like it or not :). once again you show you're lack of intelligence and your excess of cheerleding. This try to attack me has backfired on you...once again :).
Now and after letting this thing clear, I'll leave my critic posts forever.
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Wow...thanks for being a martyr. I dont know what we would have done without you. :rolleyes: Lighten up, Francis.
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Minus... Bahh! Thats nothing! In English a MOLe is a small tunnel digging mammal that is mostly blind :p
(http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~rmacarth/townsend2sm.gif)
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I once had a film of Marylin Monroe in the book depository with a sniper rifle. But in the interests of national security and domestic harmony I decided not to post it here. You'll will just have to take my word for it.
Hooligan
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Ram, we told you that your "backward" firing guns was NOT a hack. You were trying to prove one type of cheat, unlimited ammo, implied the other and it wasn't. This is the precise resone we detest talking about hacks on fourms or open channels.
Rumors start about hacks, and 99.9999% of acused cheates never are. If anyone thinks some one is cheating send us films, we can tell very quickly and always deal quickly with the problems.
HiTech
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--- Karnak: ---
Convergence works just like it did in WWII.
If you think about it, there is no way HTC could make it perform differently.
--- end ---
Of course it could be made to work in multiple different ways yet appear to deliver the effect you are expecting ( varying lethality with range? ). Thought you were a coder too?
lethality being the lethality of the whole gun package of a plane and not a single gun in the set
// fats
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Fatz, what does lethality have to do with convergance? One is nothing more than a balistic path, the other is what each bullet does when it impacts. Changes in paths just effect how many bullets could hit, but do not impact lethality.
HiTech
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Originally posted by fats
--- Karnak: ---
Convergence works just like it did in WWII.
If you think about it, there is no way HTC could make it perform differently.
--- end ---
Of course it could be made to work in multiple different ways yet appear to deliver the effect you are expecting ( varying lethality with range? ). Thought you were a coder too?
lethality being the lethality of the whole gun package of a plane and not a single gun in the set
// fats
If that were the case then the path of the shots, and what caused hits and misses would not match the expected results with a given convergence setting. I would be able to get hits with my 250 yard, wing mounted guns, from the Spit as I would from the nose mounted, 650 yard guns on the Mossie at 800 yards, but the Mossie's would simply be more leathal. This is demostratably not how it works in AH. You can watch the flight path of your tracers and if the target does not intercect with the bullet stream, no hit occurs. Try it offline by taking a Spit, setting its convergence as close as possible and the making long range shots on the drones, or better yet, the target.
I'm in Software QA, not programming, but I do understand the basics. There simply isn't any way for HTC to have done both what you describe and what the game displays. Besides, why bother? Convergence is an easy thing to program, much easier than complicated leathality tables.
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ALL the german 20mm from the 109e4 out uses the "Minengeschoss" round... wether its the mgff-m or the 151 the shell still has the same war head... and that is WAY more powerfull then ANY 20mm hispano "2 to 3 times more HE filler"...
20mm Minengeschoss with 20g PETN 718mps 92.0g
the hispano had beter armor penatration with AP but when shooting planes with HE that meens nothing..
the only plane used a mgff was the early 109e3
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HT,
I meant the lethality of the plane's whole gun package and not a single gun nor single shot.
This was my reasoning leaving out ability to penetrate armor to cause structural damage and other factors I might not even be aware of. When the pattern the bullets strike at for a burst is larger than the size of the element you calculate hit points for, you're not delivering maximum possible damage to that location. The smaller the pattern size gets until hit element size is reached the higher your hit percentage will be against that element and it will fail faster.
Examining the damage system from outside as a black box it has 2 states: enabled or disabled. If a 1 second burst at convergence - 200m doesn't disable a location but does at convergence, then saying that convergence has to do with lethality isn't too far stretch of imagination?
// fats
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Ring,
Fw 190A-5 still used MG FF at its outter wing positions. Or did you mean Bf 109 specifically? In that case I belive Bf 109F-1 still used MG FF cannons.
// fats
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all the ff's were converted to use ff-m's
most books just list all the guns as ff's.. but 1/2 threw the e3's all ff guns were retro fited to fire the mgff-m shell
(http://www.bf109.com/images/bf109cartsw.jpg)
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they were mgff/m fats m = Minengeschoss
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or Like i call them Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmm Geschoss,that's why you see the nice explosions in WW2 pork online
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Originally posted by Ring
ALL the german 20mm from the 109e4 out uses the "Minengeschoss" round... wether its the mgff-m or the 151 the shell still has the same war head... and that is WAY more powerfull then ANY 20mm hispano "2 to 3 times more HE filler"...
20mm Minengeschoss with 20g PETN 718mps 92.0g
the hispano had beter armor penatration with AP but when shooting planes with HE that meens nothing..
the only plane used a mgff was the early 109e3
It wasn't quite as simple as that. The RAF tested the M-Geschoss against the Hispano and concluded that although the M-Geschoss had more blast effect (which made it more effective in some circumstances), the Hispano HE had more penetration and caused more fragment damage (bigger chunks of steel from the shell casing) which made it more effective in other circumstances. The Hispano HEI had around 10-11g HE, the M-Geschoss 19-20.
In any case, the Luftwaffe mixed ordinary HE-T and API in with the M-Geschoss in the ammo belt.
The Bf 110 also used the MG-FF until 1940/41. I believe that all MG-FFs were probably converted to MG-FFM by early in 1941, although I have no firm evidence for this. However, as the MG-FF and MG-FFM ammunition was not interchangeable, there was a strong incentive to standardise. It is difficult to be certain of the date as German sources often just say "MG-FF" when it is clear that MG-FFM is meant.
Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
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Originally posted by hitech
Ram, we told you that your "backward" firing guns was NOT a hack. You were trying to prove one type of cheat, unlimited ammo, implied the other and it wasn't.
Hummm, that's not what I recall about it, HT, I do remember that I sent Pyro (among other things) 3 films in a zip file, one with unlimited 30mm ammo in a 109G10 in the MA, other with unlimited rockets in a P51D or Typhoon (cant recall) in the TA , other with a backwards firing 190 in the MA. All of them were sent to me so I could send them to you, and so I did.
I never tried to prove anything on my own. I was told "hey RAM I've got several films of a hacked FE flying in the MA, would you send them to HTC"?. I said I would. But those films were not taken by me.
BTW I was seriously critized by my OWN community (spanish) for not pressing more for the issue. Pyro told me to stay silent and say nothing to anyone, and that your way to deal with hacking is the one it is. I accepted it because it made sense, but I accepted it at the said cost :Everyone who knew about those films (the guy who made them spread the word very fast) thought I would start a flaming thread in the general forums with them, and when I didn't...well.
You know, is a darned example of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" ;).
BTW I'm not putting in doubt your tactic to deal with those problems (hacking). In fact and in the long term, I think that passive protection is better and less resource and time-intensive than active program-protection.
I also understand perfectly that you don't want to talk about it in the forums. That was why I didn't post anything about it, and that was the reason you never heard me complaining about cheating after that :).
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BTW HT, one question that may solve the example I posted some days ago.
Impact flashes shown in a FE mean individual shot impacts or multiple bullet impacts?.
I mean, if I impact on a plane and I see just one flash is it one hit or can it be several bullet hits?. Because if it can be several hits then the destroyed tail with one ping could be a perfectly good outcome.