Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on October 11, 2002, 12:46:30 PM
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Aug 7, Associated Press:
More than 3,000 firefighters worked Wednesday to prevent the further spread of a wildfire that has burned across more than 80 square miles of mountainous terrain east of San Diego.
The wildfire began July 29 after a National Guard helicopter clipped a power line during a search for marijuana plants in the rugged, isolated area. The fire has burned through some 53,000 acres and destroyed 25 homes. It was 60 percent contained late Wednesday.
miko
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I think the term is "collateral damage."
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It's OK, then....
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Originally posted by miko2d
It's OK, then....
One could argue that it is the drug war and not drug use that endangers our homes and children.
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Sandman_SBM: One could argue that it is the drug war and not drug use that endangers our homes and children.
Soon there will be a special agency were you can report such an argumentative "one" for "reeducation".
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Already got one of those... the DEA.
oh... and D.A.R.E.
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You can never have too many agencies...
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Just waiting for the Department of Silly Walks to get started.
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Just wait until the Office of Homeland Security focuses on the terrorist drug threat.
Charon
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for any drug cartel that is expecting to raise enough money to help fund terrorism by smuggling pot. there just isnt that much money in it. compared to coke, and heroin, you would have to be insane to waste your drug cartel resources smuggling weed. i bet most weed smuggling is done by domestic biker gangs and wannabee organized crime lords... then again... maybe not.
these commercials on tv trying to scare people away from smoking pot because it may contribute to terrorism are nearly as bad as the commercials where the girls dont want to hang out with the boys because they are high (shit when i was a teen that is how you got them to hang with you..."hey Tasha...I got an eighth, wanna go to my place and play with my TRS-80 and smoke weed"...."sure Rob")....HEHEHEHHEHE
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You have no idea of the amount of money moved by "grass". It is in the millions so the posibility is still there.
It's really quite sad that you needed "weed" to get a girl to hang with you. That says something right there...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
One could argue that it is the drug war and not drug use that endangers our homes and children.
And one would be correct. It hurts our economy greatly as well.
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Oh man... buyin' weed funds the terrorists? These are the ads they're playin'?
Maverick, moving the stuff is indeed in the millions, but I aint ever bought weed off of someone from the middle east. In point of fact, if those guys tried to move into that market they'd get their tulips kicked fast by folks who don't need any higher authority to do it. :D
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Just out of curiousity Maverick....you ever bought or smoked pot?
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i have a stainless steel pot that i cook in, it is a little smoky on the botton
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Originally posted by N1kPaz
for any drug cartel that is expecting to raise enough money to help fund terrorism by smuggling pot. there just isnt that much money in it. compared to coke, and heroin, you would have to be insane to waste your drug cartel resources smuggling weed. i bet most weed smuggling is done by domestic biker gangs and wannabee organized crime lords... then again... maybe not.
these commercials on tv trying to scare people away from smoking pot because it may contribute to terrorism are nearly as bad as the commercials where the girls dont want to hang out with the boys because they are high (shit when i was a teen that is how you got them to hang with you..."hey Tasha...I got an eighth, wanna go to my place and play with my TRS-80 and smoke weed"...."sure Rob")....HEHEHEHHEHE
You expect us to believe that you have actually been with a girl?:}
And its nice to know the anti drug industry is providing work for all the contracters that will be needed to rebuild the burnt out homes..
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Originally posted by Maverick
You have no idea of the amount of money moved by "grass". It is in the millions so the posibility is still there.
Maverick, you are SO correct.I lived in the "Emerald Triangle" of Humboldt, Tehama and Mendocino counties and it's the number one industry= ahead of timber even. I know first hand exactly what the dope cultivation industry is all about in that area because I lived right in the middle of it from 1977 til 1984.
Do not fool yourself, people. Pot growing operations of a commercial scale like the ones CAMP and COMMET target are million dollar enterprises. These people are criminals who answer to no enviromental, health and safety, tax or any other kinds of rules. They have armed guards, booby traps and they poison deer and other herbavores to prevent them from eating the plants.
These people are NOT your mom and pop hippie growers from the 70s who put in a couple of pot plants at the end of a row of corn and tomatoes in the vegetable garden. These are people who buy land adjacent to BLM land and grow there so as not to put their own property at risk. They hang fishhooks at face lavel on paths. They illegally put locked gates across public forest service roads. They illegally tap into salmon spawning streams at the most critical time of the fish's development and actually kill off a generation of returning salmon by pumping all the water out to irrigate their pot plants.
Here's a riddle for you- If you're walking in the woods in August and there's NO birds chirping, NO squirrels chattering and the only deer you see is laying in a stream, dead- where are you? Next to a pot plantation that uses poison to protect its plants. FUG the EPA.
These are not nice people. They are making butt loads of money off of committing an illegal act and they don't care if a 12 year old gets ahold of their product as long as they get their money and they have no responsibility to society. They are having their cake and eating it too. And they're also opposed to the legalization of marijuana.
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Right on Airhead! S!
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
Just out of curiousity Maverick....you ever bought or smoked pot?
Gee Raub, great point. I'm sure smoking dope makes one much more of an expert on the pot issue than one who is a retired cop like Mav. :rolleyes:
Don't even get me started on this. Almost every year we have to "advise" a new group of squatters that my elderly parents' land isn't Government land so they'll have to remove their pot plants. If they start getting smart assed about it then we remind them we've signed a waiver with the Sheriff's Dept. to allow them to search our land without a warrant- that usually does it.
Then we call the Dept. of Fish and Game and have them walk the creekbed of the protected salmon spawning stream that borders our property up to its source, pulling out illegal waterlines used by the growers.
Because the people who have no respect for the enviroment or the law are the atypical breed of pot cultivators they bring in other fun things to a community like illegal firearms, harder drugs, burgulries, crank labs and even murders.
I personally don't care if you smoke dope or not but keep in mind the growers you support are absolutely the most contemptable of people you will ever want to meet. They are lowlife pond scum, IMO, and are beneath contempt.
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You know... if it were legal, they would have no reason to trespass and grow it in some remote location. They could grow it at home next to their philodendrens.
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You spoke my mind Sandman. Police could focus on toejam that really matters if they'd legalize it. Someday when all the old prudes are gone it will happen. Until then we will waste billions of dollars fighting a futile battle over something less harmful than alcohol.
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What about ppl who use MJ for medical purposes?
hardcase
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You have to give pot away to get a girl to spend time with you? Oh dear. Couldn't you rely on your sparkling personality and natural wit, old chap?
Legalise it fo god's sake. Alcohol does FAR more damage, IMO.
Legalise it and then tax it heavily - then give the tax breaks to people like me who don't do it.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
You spoke my mind Sandman. Police could focus on toejam that really matters if they'd legalize it. Someday when all the old prudes are gone it will happen. Until then we will waste billions of dollars fighting a futile battle over something less harmful than alcohol.
If you dopeheads werent smoking it, then we could concentrate on things that matter.
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Originally posted by hardcase
What about ppl who use MJ for medical purposes?
hardcase
hardcase, the Compassionate Use Act passed by Californians allows the posession of marijuana for medicimal purposes.
In Mendocino County a "pot doc" will issue you a prescription for anywhere between forty and a hundred dollars, depending on the Doc. The Sheriff and the DA of Mendocino County, both elected on a pro-pot platform, have determined that 25 plants (outdoor, indoor is different standards) PER CARD HOLDER, plus an additional 25 plants if a member of a marijuana club, will be ignored on a local level and not proscecuted by local authorities. In effect pot cultivation is legal there.
One of my brothers has a card, and my step brother and his wife have cards also. Basically it's a way to grow dope without getting busted- it's a loophole is all. Next time my bro visits I'll scan his county issued card and post it.
I understand why a millworker or timberfaller who no longer has a job due to the timber industry going in the tank will grow a few plants for economic survival, or a guy putting in a couple of plants for some extra x-mas money, and an awful lot of my friends do exactly that. But I'm talking about the large commercial operations of a thousand or so plants spread along a creekbed for a mile or so, dumping excess nitrogen into the waterway, poisoning wildlife, shooting unfortunates who stumble upon their operation- but 100 legally grown plants, like my step brother and his wife grow every year, nets about half a million dollars at the current price of four grand a pound.
Sandman, it's basically legal- and do you know what? The same criminal element is still growing dope, dealing in crank and stolen firearms, ripping off other pot gardens and ignoring enviromental and tax regulations, etc., etc., only now they have no worries about getting busted for the cultivation. Basically, people who break the law are criminals (not sure on this one, maybe Mav can help me out) and a person willing to break one law is willing to break a second law. Legalized cultivation has no impact on those already violating the law.
Hardcase, I don't care WHAT your purpose is for smoking dope. In fact I don't really care what any of you do in the privacy of your own homes provided it doesn't involve cruelty to children and animals. I'm pointing out that if you buy pot you are supporting a criminal element that answers to no authority. There are no ethics involved in the pot business- tell your dealer you need to buy more than usual because your 12 year old is smoking and he'll probably laugh and think that's cute- while he's counting your money. Oh, BTW, we had a surprise party last night for a buddy's wife who is fighting liver cancer and scheduled to start Kemo soon. Guess what my gift was?
Raubvogel, I have forgotten more about drugs than you will ever friggin know sonny. My anti-drug stance is based on observation and personal experiences over the course of a sometimes less than perfect life rather than being formed by a fear of the unknown. If I speak out it's because I feel I have an obligation to kids to speak out and that is as much as I'm willing to say regarding my own personal history on this bbs. Don't call me a prude and I won't call you a punk, OK? Now go smoke your bong:)
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Originally posted by Dowding
Legalise it and then tax it heavily - then give the tax breaks to people like me who don't do it.
Agreed, Dowding, and I'd go even further....
And then let all the States' Attorneys Generals impose a hefty settlement on them and then let juries award multi-billion dollar awards to folks who are literally to stupid to breathe.
And then THAT will put the growers out of business.
Cobra
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Originally posted by Airhead
...a person willing to break one law is willing to break a second law. Legalized cultivation has no impact on those already violating the law.
I don't agree with this at all... a great example is traffic laws.
Are people that disobey maximum speed laws more likely to smoke dope?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I don't agree with this at all... a great example is traffic laws.
Are people that disobey maximum speed laws more likely to smoke dope?
No, Sandman, people that ignore speed limits are more likely to run stop signs, pass unsafely and, ultimately, more likely to be involved in auto accidents.
Commercial pot growers are more likely to violate EPA laws, tax laws and are more likely to steal anything from firewood to food out of your freezer.
Are commercial pot growers more likely to also drive too fast? No, because they don't want to get pulled over by the cops.
Seriously, if we continue this discussion we should move it over to CheckSix.Net to avoid this thread getting locked.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Seriously, if we continue this discussion we should move it over to CheckSix.Net to avoid this thread getting locked.
LOL :D
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Anything moved on the black market supports criminal activity. I don't know how much clearer that could be.
What's the difference between someone whacked on pot or drunk sitting in my class? None, and neither one of them is doing society or themselves any good.
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Talk to the dutch police maverick
:rolleyes:
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Wot? I dinnae exhale!
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Until the Fed gov'ment allows medical use of MJ, guess I will continue to support a criminal empire. Then again, prohibitions create em, dont ya know.
HC
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Thanks for the eye opener Airhead.
I have no qualms about sharing the fact that I was once a very heavy user. I once got to test the winner of the Humboldt county growers festival. I can honestly say, however, that I never thought of the people growing the stuff as anything but free spirited hippies. Kinda saddens me to hear differently.
Its now been over 12 years since I did any drugs (except an occasional 12 year old scotch). Don't miss it at all.
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yes...i was....hehe
but i found out that alcohol works alot better for lowering their inhibitions.
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The "hippies" all quit growing over 20 years ago when the outlaws moved into the hills with their AR-15s and booby traps and crank habits. See, being new to the scene they were too inept to grow, so they did the next best thing by stealing dope from all the growers around them. All the hippies left other than carrying guns to protect their crops, and in fact there is almost always illegal weapons and other, harder drugs seized on a commercial pot operation bust today.
A new twist this year was a group of about 30 heavily armed Mexican guys showing up in the gardens West of Ukiah and running the growers off their site a week or two before harvest. It's no wonder someone wasn't killed in a gunbattle as happens all to often in pot disputes. I personally have known five people who have been shot in pot disputes, three of whom died.
This is a criminal element, and Mendocino County allowing a couple to legally grow up to 100 plants without fear of local arrest and prosecution with posession of a county issued medical marijuana license hasn't helped the situation but instead attracted even more lowlifes looking to either grow their own or rip off someone else's.
There are those that grow for personal use and there's those that grow for profit. The eighth ounce bag you buy for 40 or 50 bucks is grown by those that grow for profit. If you wish to "support a criminal empire" then I guess you will, just be aware of the seedier side of the business and consider yourself as being part of the problem then Hardcase.
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are paying 40 or 50 bucks for an eighth....hehe....your gettin' SCREWED....
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How is it that MJ is benificial to my health, and someone says I cannot use it for such(my oncologist agrees with me) Now, does that make me a criminal? You seem to live in a black and white world. It ain't so.
Don't be so condecending as to assume I am not aware of what I must support because the Federal Government cannot act to legalize MJ for medical use. The choice..buy it illicitly or puke and lose weight during a year of chemo. What do you think you would choose if faced with this choice? I am not the criminal, the law is flawed.
hardcase
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What hardcase said. There's two ways to to make it so ya don't support the "30 armed Mexiacans" element... Don't smoke it. Or decriminalize it. People aren't gonna stop smoking it...
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YOU GUYS GOT SOMETHING AGAINST FRIGGIN'
MEXICANS OR WHAT????
:p :p :p :p
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Look, I am all for legalizing pot for medical use in the same way heroin can be used for medical reasons- it would be silly to be otherwise. I would be very cautious of sliding down the slippery slope of arguing for the legalization of anything merely because "people aren't going to stop anyway". You might as well do away with laws if that is the basis for making them.
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Laws are designed to protect us. The drug laws ,as they are today, put us in more danger from the criminal class they create.
They do not protect ppl who will use drugs. They do not protect me from the criminals who profit from the illicit trade. I would rather trip over 10 druggies in the park enjoying their legal drugs, than meet one of them in an alley when he needs money to pay for what is in reality a cheap commodity to produce.
Illicit drugs should be legalized, just like nicotine and alcohol. We lose more to those two legal drugs than we will ever lose to illicit drugs. Legalization would destroy the criminal class that is being well fed today. Controls can be implemented. The money saved on DEA budgets and War on Drugs, Military Intervention, the propping up of the drug production countries to save their governments could be used to better us. Prisons could be used to house the truly dangerous ppl in our society instead of the 40% prison population that is there for non-violent drug possesion violations. More money could be used in treatment and education.
Legalization of illicit drugs is a win win situation.
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Originally posted by hardcase
How is it that MJ is benificial to my health, and someone says I cannot use it for such(my oncologist agrees with me) Now, does that make me a criminal? You seem to live in a black and white world. It ain't so.
Don't be so condecending as to assume I am not aware of what I must support because the Federal Government cannot act to legalize MJ for medical use. The choice..buy it illicitly or puke and lose weight during a year of chemo. What do you think you would choose if faced with this choice? I am not the criminal, the law is flawed.
hardcase
Great post Hardcase, but unfortunately the laws regarding the Compassonate Use Act have served as legitimizing the profiting in the marijuana cultivation business rather than actually bringing relief to chemo patients such as you were/are. Believe me, I think you should be entitled to whatever comfort you can gain by any controlled substance whether it be marijuana or not, but the Compassonate Use Act has legitimized the cultivation of marijuana and don't think for a minute that people using this act as an excuse to grow pot aren't taking advantage of a loophole in the law. They don't care who ends up with the pot as long as they end up with the money.
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if my mother would have been able to eat and thus lived longer and possibly had a chance of putting her cancer in remission had she been able to use MJ to increase her appetite.
she couldnt eat and thus...she died...weakening every day until her internal organs could no longer sustain the life that me and my family so dearly loved.
she would sit in her room and watch the food network all day long with the volume on 0. but...she couldnt eat.
sometimes when i think about how she gave up, it makes me want to give up, but i reckon i owe it to my kids and my friends to go ahead and plod forward...hell you never know they might legalize pot and when i get cancer (both folks died of it: dad age 67 mom age 57, prolly gonna end up with it myself) I might just be able to smoke giant fat joints of kind bud and then eat large helpings of life giving nourishment.
then again maybe the anti-drug nazi's will have their way and I will just lay in bed and slowly starve to death whilst simultaneously being eaten alive by cancer.
yes...im bitter....
I just cant seem to get this toejam out of my mind. It affects everything in my life and has certainly sent me into a spin.
whine_mode off
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I can't really believe anyone thinks that legalizing drugs will make all drug problems go away. What is more shocking is the number of people that apparently do believe this.
I'd be interested to know what controls you believe will work if drugs are legalized. Seems if that is possible, those controls would work now- while drugs are illegal, yet by anti-drug law proponents' opinion, they don't. It can't be both ways, you know. The way I see it, you make your line in the sand and defend it. You may be moved, but willingly moving the line only gives the other side a better position from which to push.
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Kieran, Orange County (Calif.) Superior Court Judge James P. Gray (who once held the record for the largest drug prosecution in the history of the Central District of California, and is a veteran trial judge) just wrote a book "Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It" to help you understand.
"The results of our country's Zero Tolerance Drug Prohibition policy are multifaceted, overlapping, and overwhelmingly negative," ... "I have learned from over twenty years of experience that although the War on Drugs makes for good politics, it makes for terrible government."
"[Although] there may be a few judges in this country who believe that our current drug policy is working, they are surely a small minority,"
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Gray's treatise is punctuated with critiques from some of the judicial community's most prestigious members, including Gilbert S. Merritt of the U.S. Court of Appeals in Nashville, Senior Judge John K. Lane Jr. of the U.S. District Court in Denver, Idaho Supreme Court Justice Byron J. Johnson, and Phoenix Appellate Judge Rudolph G. Gerber. Taken together, their remarks offer one of the strongest denunciations to date of America's misguided drug-war policies. Coming from judges, it will be hard for the usual gang of drug-war proponents to dismiss it as irresponsible or self-serving.
Unlike many previous indictments of U.S. drug policy, Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed also proposes some solutions. From an individual perspective these include educating ourselves to viable drug-policy alternatives, looking critically at television and news coverage on illicit drugs, and publicly confronting those with vested economic or psychological interests in maintaining the status quo. On a national level Gray recommends "de-profitizing the illegal drug market" (by which he means treating currently illicit drugs like other regulated intoxicants or prescription medicines already sold in the market), rescinding America's international anti-drug treaty obligations, turning drug policy over to the states, eradicating mandatory minimum sentencing, reforming asset forfeiture laws, licensing physicians to prescribe medical marijuana, and ending federal subsidies for growing tobacco.
As is the case throughout the book, the author's conviction in his principles is unwavering. "I am so convinced of the rightness and benefits of the course I am proposing that I will end this discussion with a guarantee," he writes. "If we abandon our failed drug policy and implement the programs I have outlined here, crime in the United States will be reduced by a minimum of 35 percent." That should attract some attention.
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I'd be interested to know what controls you believe will work if drugs are legalized.
You can control sales and advertisemants to the children. With drugs selling for the price of alcohol, the companies would not find it attractive to hire illegal "pushers" to hook up our kids.
You may be moved, but willingly moving the line only gives the other side a better position from which to push.
Which "other side" do you mean? If it's your children, you can still prevent them from doing drugs like you prevent them from smoking or alcohol.
If it's criminal drug-lords, their business will collapce because enormous profits will evaporate.
miko
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Originally posted by Kieran
I can't really believe anyone thinks that legalizing drugs will make all drug problems go away. What is more shocking is the number of people that apparently do believe this.
The drug problems will never go away. Not ever.
Ending the drug war will reduce the crime problem that comes with it.
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Do you reallly believe that someone says..I want to smoke pot but it is illegal so I won't? ..Legal drugs will have problems in itself but the problems will be minuscule when compared to the Criminal Justice System's solution.....
Thing is....to legalize drugs means to elimnate the bloated government efforts and the jobs and power that goes with it. The ablilty to regulate a thing is to control a thing. The government fears losing control of the populace, for a populace in rebellion is bad for those in power.
Why not just let those that want..to do all the drugs they can. We can police em up and maintian control of them. The associated property and personel crimes aimed at getting money to buy a hyper-priced drug will be elimnated. The prisons will be free to hold true criminals and not be the holding facility for ppl who should be in drug programs. The Billions gained to the cartels will dry up, rendering them moot. Name one problem that wouuld not be solved by legalizing drugs.
hardcase
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Miko... Gray is just one... there's more... :)
http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2001/06/19/judges/index.html
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When agent E. Camarena was found tortured and killed I changed my mode of aquisition of the herb. Been self sufficent ever since.
Buying on the black market shouldn't be the only avenue for aquiring a plant that, in all likelyhood, will be legal within the next 20 years.
Those who vehemently oppose the use of MJ should look back to the prohibition era and the effects of the 21st amendment.
After all's said and done, I'd rather face 100 MJ smokers on the road than ONE drunk driver...the effects of alcohol are so much more dangerous it is laughable that this hypocracy exists.
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Look... I don't think anyone is evil because they smoke pot. I also think ending laws because people will break them anyway is a ludicrous idea. If the law serves a purpose, the law should exist. The debate is whether the law serves this purpose or not.
With over 265 million people in this country, would I hypothetically like to see, say, 15% use pot (or narcotic drugs- people are going to use them anyway, so why not make them legal?)? No. I happen to believe that will lead to just as many problems, perhaps more, than what we have by fighting it.
Look at it this way- not everyone who smokes pot is a criminal, but once you have the habit, you are going to feed it. Feeding that habit can be all-consuming, so whether that bag costs $10 or a nickel, it won't matter, the person is going to get the bag one way or another.
Arguing that dropping our standards of behavior in our society will produce less criminals is like arguing dropping the grading scale in school will produce more honor roll students. Sure it will, but you aren't going to like the quality of people you have around you. And would any of you argue the point that setting the precedent for legalizing mj won't be jumped on by advocates of harder drugs, employing the same "well, people are going to do it anyway"?
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Habit...Dope? My god it is "Reefer Madness":D
What purpose does the prohibition serve? It doesnt prevent usage. It does create an Industry of Cartels and Government, a criminal underclass in all classes of our society. The prohibition creates the problem, that government wants to contain. It cannot be contained. We have been doing drugs of one form or another since we walked upright.
Do you really think your friends who dont do drugs would suddenly say.."since it is legal I want to shoot up some heroin"
Those that will already do.
Remember, no one cares about the drunk now, a druggie would be no different. The guy coughing his lungs up wasnt approached by anyone to give up smoking. Alcohol and Tobacco are a major revenue source for the government that wants to protect us from the evils of legal drugs. Don't you find their arguments for keeping drugs illicit rings false? The War on Drugs keeps many a governemt suit busy and prospering. Lots of nice houses were built on the backs of some poor, undereducated, poorly socialized drug users who manage to go to jail for drug use ..when for example Jebb Bush's daughter, as a daughter of priviledge, gets that treatment help that she fails constantly.
The governmental drug policy is just plain flawed. Exploits the weak, rewards those who make the policies. Confinscation is a great way for police departments fund their activities and many would be hard pressed to pay their way without taking homes from users.
I could go on forever.
hardcase
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What's the difference between someone whacked on pot or drunk sitting in my class?
LOL!!! You need to smoke some pot dude :D the differance is huge!!!
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HC-
You can't convince me that removing the stigma of using drugs won't encourage people who would otherwise avoid drugs from starting.
You can't convince me that advocates for legalizing narcotics and other hardcore drugs won't use the same path taken by those legalizing pot.
You can't convince me that millions of recreational drug users in the country is a good idea. Pointing to the problems we have with alcohol, it should be apparent that turning more people loose on the roads under the influence is really silly and tragic.
And really... don't you grow tired of characterizing my rebuttals to you as extremist when they are anything but? Reefer madness? Pfft. I suppose you don't think we have people that drink themselves into oblivion now, right? I mean, if we only made alcohol legal, people wouldn't have to hide their behavior, the government could put in controls, and it would be one big happy paradise of alcohol... but wait, drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Rehab centers are full of people trying to get off the juice. Families are broken (my father was alcoholic, it broke my parents up) and lives are wasted. Damn, if only alcohol was legal back then... ;)
I don't know... maybe it's just the common sense side of me, but if something is a problem it seems the best way to proceed would be to avoid making it something even more available. I realize you want your weed, you may even need it, but that doesn't mean it is in the best interests of the rest of the country.
Maniac-
I was a kid once. I did inhale. I chugged a few, too. I think I can make a fair comparison.
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It is readily avaliable. I had to ask 3 ppl to find some.
So, some more ppl take it up. They would not be a problem. The weak died on the way and the cowards never started. Let anyone who wants to use MJ or any drug. As long as I don't get robbed or killed by them, they are not my concern. Drunks on the road kill quite a few ppl a year. Go demand that Prohibition be returned. With any luck the major dopers would simply disappear over time. Think about the education the kids could get by seeing ppl wasting away. A pic is worth a thousand words.
It would be nice if all the dopers could simply waste out without causing any problems. Believe me, no one was ever deterred by the criminalization of drugs from using em. They also don't have a problem killing you if the need is great and money is short.
So bottom line, you a in favor of drug cartels growing rich from ilicit drugs. The crime associated with their being illicit doesnt bother you.
Making drugs illegal is not a deterrent. There will always be someone to supply and those ppl are not very nice.
Everyone knows that.
As long as you are in favor of keeping them illegal then embrace the consequences of their being so.
Wouldnt it be funny if the ppl in charge of enforcing the drug laws are in fact in bed with the cartels. No wait..they are.
hardcase
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So, some more ppl take it up. They would not be a problem. The weak died on the way and the cowards never started. Let anyone who wants to use MJ or any drug. As long as I don't get robbed or killed by them, they are not my concern. Drunks on the road kill quite a few ppl a year. Go demand that Prohibition be returned. With any luck the major dopers would simply disappear over time. Think about the education the kids could get by seeing ppl wasting away. A pic is worth a thousand words.
Keep talking, you're making my case far more effectively than I ever could.
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So let me get this straight... you really are for letting people take any drug they wish recreationally, so long as they don't rob from you or kill you to get the money to do it? Is your life really that simple?
What happens when large numbers of these people are no longer willing or able to work? You know our society isn't going to allow them to starve to death- we'll build great big rehab centers in place of prisons, and the working public (the fewer of them left) will support them with tax dollars.
Crime- ask a cop (we have some onboard, ask 'em) who they'd rather face- a drunk or someone loaded up with PCP. Neither one is good, but I suspect the drunk will be the choice. Maybe I'm wrong.
Just because I don't advocate making drugs legal doesn't mean I support drug cartels- that's simply an ignorant and totally inaccurate comment on your part.
Want to discuss drug enforcement and how it can be bettered, fine. That isn't what you are saying though... you simply want to be able to take whatever drugs you wish without recrimination. You don't care what impact it has on society. You are using extremely flawed logic to support this stance, however. Prove to me that no one avoided drugs because of laws, for instance. As hard as it is to believe, some people do follow laws. Prove to me any of the government controls you suggest could be put in place will be any more effective than those that are now in place.
And please, I never asked for prohibition, so stop sticking words in my mouth. Alcohol IS a problem in this country. Tobacco IS a problem in this country. It isn't a simple matter to turn the spigot on or off to solve the problem, nor am I suggesting the same for drugs. The problem is there is no clear way to open the spigot of drugs and get anything other than a major negative effect. Unless it could be proven to me the alternative is better than what we have now, I wouldn't vote for change. If another way could be proven to be better, I'm all for it.
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You seem to forget there are existing laws controlling behavior and they would be enforced with legal drugs.
The cop facing the PCP guy happens today with all the enforcement the US Gov can muster. Cops are killed by drunks every year. The war is not being won.
Why would ppl quit work? Druggers work. They just work at being a criminal class. Junkies work at night and use a weapon now, with all that enforcement. They work at being a criminal because they are addicted to smack and are charged a huge markup by the suppliers. Nothing worse than a junkie out of herion with a gun, when all he needs is a quarters worth of legal smack, some rehab and education.The very thing you are worried about is happening now and growing. Legal drugs elimnates the crime associated with it.
I suspect you see hordes of drug crazed denizens beating down your door..but why would they do that with legal drugs, controlled and taxed, much like alcohol and tobacco. Even been robbed by someone wanting a drink? I have been robbed by what was found out to be two smackheads needing money. One really wanted to shoot me. The other didn't. He won the argument. Was an interesting 30 seconds.
So, do I care if someone wants to do drugs. Not in the least. I just want them not involving themselves in my life. A nice park with controls, rehabs, education for them would suit me fine. It would benefit them also.
The laws today do not serve me or them well. Do you feel safe out at night in a downtown area? Thank the drug laws for that unsafe feeling.
hardcase
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I really suggest you come down, then post. When you re-read that last post it will seem a little more... disconnected... with a clearer head.
But by all means, keep talking, because you really are doing my work for me. As if your life exists in a vacuum, and what happens in society has no impact on you... :D
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Originally posted by N1kPaz
for any drug cartel that is expecting to raise enough money to help fund terrorism by smuggling pot. there just isnt that much money in it. compared to coke, and heroin, you would have to be insane to waste your drug cartel resources smuggling weed.
When you use Northern Alliance Brand Smack, you are shooting up for freedom.
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I was a kid once. I did inhale. I chugged a few, too. I think I can make a fair comparison.
Well atleast an teacher could hold class with pot-smokers, the pot-smokers might even wonder off in the topic the class has and discover new teories etc :cool:
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Funny thing, I don't consider the weed guys to be any more perceptive than the drunks. Both wind up laughing stupidly at their own jokes and don't learn a thing. Maybe your classes were different.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Arguing that dropping our standards of behavior in our society will produce less criminals is like arguing dropping the grading scale in school will produce more honor roll students. Sure it will, but you aren't going to like the quality of people you have around you. And would any of you argue the point that setting the precedent for legalizing mj won't be jumped on by advocates of harder drugs, employing the same "well, people are going to do it anyway"?
That's absured as my spelling without WORD2000. (I'll reinstall it soon)
Dropping obscene drug laws on pot smokers does in fact reduce criminals. Define criminal.
Shameful; disgraceful: a criminal waste of talent. Of, involving, or having the nature of crime: criminal abuse.
An Adult that smokes pot is a real criminal? I know many adults on Paxyl, a legal drug, that are better people because of it.
Some that smoke pot and I can't say they are any diffrent from me or you.
And you REALLY think someone that uses pot is a true criminal and supports Herion use?
People that smoke pot and offer no threat to society will ban together to promote drugs that are horribly addictive like alcohol and tobacco, but destroy you 10X's quicker?
Stop the High School Drama Hitler films. It's absurd.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Funny thing, I don't consider the weed guys to be any more perceptive than the drunks. Both wind up laughing stupidly at their own jokes and don't learn a thing. Maybe your classes were different.
Funny, I didn't claim intelligence by being smashed, yet you do by sobriety, but it's actual opinion, rather than fact.
And i am just toejamfaced on Vodka.
Quite a quandary, a'int it?
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Both wind up laughing stupidly at their own jokes and don't learn a thing. Maybe your classes were different.
Listen, im talking age 20+ here...
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Well, well, well...
or is that "oh, my!"
I'd just like you to tell me exactly where I said pot smokers were criminals. OTOH, HC is suggesting it'd be fine by him to legalize all drugs. Further, the alcohol and tobacco issue is being brought by YOU guys, not me. I happen to think they are bad, too.
Smoke your weed, see if I care. OTOH, don't try to blow smoke up my crack and tell me it's gonna make this country a better place to be. Whether we pay tax dollars to jail people breaking laws or pay tax dollars for rehab centers, we're still going to be spending tax dollars because of drugs.
How's that for a quandary?
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A lil' more, because you say you are drunk...
I am not necessarily saying it will be pot advocates that will go after harder drugs, though I suspect some will... I am saying the precedent set will be used by those that do want harder drugs legalized. Look, all I'm really driving at here is the best argument put forth for legalization is that no one follows the law anyway. Where does that end? Why have laws at all? Sorry, but I am not an anarchist.
Discuss better ways to enforce laws, or discuss better ways to handle the aftermath of a legal drug society. But I won't pretend to believe in the utopian society some of you guys profess is gonna happen the second drugs are legal.
By the way, the "Hitler films" reference gets you big points.
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if it doesnt have to be processed make it legal...if it does make it illegal...after all pot is a friggin' plant dudes...coke is processed, crank, lsd, angel dust, etc...all processed.
draw the line at processed..
i hope they legalize weed before i get too old to hold my hits without blowing them out and wasting the good smoke.
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Utopia..america? Never happen.
As long as there is a demand for drugs, whether from poverty, social ills, experimentation, addiction, there will always be a market for drugs. No amount of law enforment is ever going to eradicate the demand. The demand, since it cannot be met by legal means, it is met by the underworld.
The demand is here and is not going away, given our social system producing users. Kieran, the problems you forsee from legalizing drugs are already here. Legalilzing would allow government control:Taxing, distribution, selling by licensed dealers, public abuse laws(hey we have those already for our drunks). There will be the same problems we have now, but the bloated infratstructures could be dismantled. Moneys could be better spent fixing the problem that brings drug abuse on. Treatment for users instead of throwing them to the Criminal Justice System.
The War cost us untold billions, gives untold billions to a criminal class and is totally ineffectual at stopping the real problem. The US demand for drugs.
hardcase
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What's the difference between someone whacked on pot or drunk sitting in my class?
Actually on the morning before me exam for procestechnics
i smoked pot
result i passed
:D
same counts for my driving exam after failing 3X sober
i passed while a bit stoned
For me it just relaxes i guess and can make me concentrate good on one thing.
Also in AH try to make a good fightwhile drunk
it's impossible
I fly AH 90% while a bit stoned to
:)
I know i suck
especially in the p38
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I fly AH 90% while a bit stoned to
I found out that i sucked at flyin AH when i was not smokin... could have be due to habit tough...
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Originally posted by Kieran
Look, all I'm really driving at here is the best argument put forth for legalization is that no one follows the law anyway.
Valid argument would consist of each side presenting a list of specific points and addressing them one by one.
One of the nice properties of the bulletin boards for stroking one's own ego - you can selectively ignore strong points of opponents arguments or even all of them and reply to your own fantasies.
You are coming up with nonsensical arguments and attribute them to opposition instead of addressing valid points of drug-legalisation program.
Well, at least you are always guaranteed to win an argument.
miko
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Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
If you dopeheads werent smoking it, then we could concentrate on things that matter.
That's the funniest thing I've read all week. Thanks for the laugh. I didn't realize I was a dopehead.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Raubvogel, I have forgotten more about drugs than you will ever friggin know sonny. . Don't call me a prude and I won't call you a punk, OK? Now go smoke your bong:)
This is pretty frikkin funny too.
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How many years and how many wasted dollars is it going to take to convince people that this great "War on Drugs" is a huge waste of resources as it's now structured? Bottom line: If something is broke, you need to fix it.
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There are still a lot of old trips that still believe that marijuana is more harmfull than bacon . They're dying off though .
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EDIT: seems you deleted your posts Kieran... oh well, I had some good stuff here.
-SW
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My fault. I knew better than to step between you dudes and your dope. I asked for it.
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Yup. I think I am done here. I tried to discuss the issue from the perspective of whether there was a reason for the law or not, and wound up being painted as a prohibitionist.
Never did I say mj was better or worse than anything else that is currently legal. Knee-jerk reaction posts made it sound that way, however. Bah.
I still think the arguments forwarded boil down to "people are going to do it anyway, so it's a waste of money to try to stop it". THAT is a silly reason to repeal ANY law.
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Not just a law, but a bloated set of agencys costing us dearly and have no effect. We could have universal health care for the cost of drugs being illegal with change left over.
HC
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Kieran... "my dope"? Well I dunno about that.. I actually posted something in regards to the laws and government policy, however, you decided to sweep me in with the other guys in this thread.
I ain't painting anyone with a brush, someone just painted me tho...
-SW
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Originally posted by Kieran: I still think the arguments forwarded boil down to "people are going to do it anyway, so it's a waste of money to try to stop it". THAT is a silly reason to repeal ANY law.
If you care to repeat that nonsense again, I can repeat myself too. Yes, that reason is very silly. But it's your reason - not ours.
miko
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Apologies, SW, not my intention. I take this to mean you don't smoke mj? I thought in another thread you mentioned doing it.
No reason for you to pull your comments if you have them, though. I pulled mine because I seem to be failing miserably to express the viewpoint I hold.
Anyway, think I'll leave this utopia for a while. Believe it or not, I don't come here to see how many guys I can piss off a day, though it's beginning to seem that way.
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Kieran, forget it. I left this thread because I realized 2 days ago it's fighting a losing battle- according to proponents of lefgalized marijuana and other harder drugs the way to combat crime is to give away heroin, crank, LSD or whatever to whoever wants it. Obviously they don't understand that having legalized drugs doesn't end the burden a drug addict is to society because a drug addict still won't work, still won't function and still won't do anything but do drugs and be drug addicts. Think of it as feeding pigeons- the more food you provide the more pigeons show up.
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Who cares if the loser still continues buying the same amount of drugs and has problems? Let him be happy that the drugs will be cheap, clean and in convenient dozage. No need to risk his life robbing me so often.
I only care that the same amount of drugs is sold by legal US merchants with limits on advertising than by illegal foreign crime lords with no limits at all.
I will deal with my children not becoming junkies and your drug war makes it more difficult for me - not easier.
miko